Should HH The Dalai Lama be elected India's next President?

naren · Post by **naren** » 18 Sep 2010 09:57

I switched sides and voted yes.

(I still believe in "no" for long term reasons, but hey, if it annoys the commies, I'm in

)

naren · Post by **naren** » 19 Sep 2010 23:03

Our future brejident Joins Campaign Against Battery Hens

New Delhi, India, 1 September 2010 (AFP) - The Dalai Lama has condemned battery hen farming and is urging consumers to switch to buying eggs from chickens kept outside of cages, a statement said Wednesday.

"Turning these defenseless animals into egg-producing machines with no consideration for their welfare whatsoever is a degradation of our own humanity," the Buddhist spiritual leader said.

"Switching to cage-free eggs would reduce the suffering of these animals," the Dalai Lama said in the statement issued in support of a campaign against battery hen farming by Humane Society International.

This is how innocently it starts. Then they will say no to all non vegetarianism. Then "no" to all militarism. They would happily protect the chickens and goats and worms (remember the scene in "Seven years in Tibet" ?), but let down millions of their own people. Karma Yoga, not Buddhism, is the need of the hour. (In my personal experience, I'd strongly say that Karma Yoga and Buddhism are not contradictory.)

About vegetarian diet I have to say this — first, my Master was a vegetarian; but if he was given meat offered to the Goddess, he used to hold it up to his head. The taking of life is undoubtedly sinful; but so long as vegetable food is not made suitable to the human system through progress in chemistry, there is no other alternative but meat-eating. So long as man shall have to live a Râjasika (active) life under circumstances like the present, there is no other way except through meat-eating. It is true that the Emperor Asoka saved the lives of millions of animals by the threat of the sword; but is not the slavery of a thousand years more dreadful than that? Taking the life of a few goats as against the inability to protect the honour of one's own wife and daughter, and to save the morsels for one's children from robbing hands — which of these is more sinful? Rather let those belonging to the upper ten, who do not earn their livelihood by manual labour, not take meat; but the forcing of vegetarianism upon those who have to earn their bread by labouring day and night is one of the causes of the loss of our national freedom. - Swami Vivekananda

src

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Sep 2010 23:32

^ very true.

However I support this specific initiative. The idea is that humans should be sympathetic towards other beings. That doesn't mean they turn pacific toward adharmic forces.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Sep 2010 23:33

RajeshA wrote:
Atri wrote:Secondly, this can be used as an example to make Sonia Gandhi as PM too. The highest positions should not be given to people who have acquired citizenships.
In the proposal, from a certain PoV HH DL does not 'acquire' Indian citizenship. Formulated differently, we are not changing his citizenship, we are changing the Indian State, so that it is India+Tibet.

Goa or Sikkim became parts of India on 19 December, 1961 and 16 May, 1975 respectively. The citizens of Goa and Sikkim became Indian citizens automatically. As far as I know, there is no impediment for any Goan or Sikkimese to become Indian President.

Constitution does not proscribe it. Anyone who is a citizen of India , that is Bharat , can become President of India. Territory can also be acquired by the Union ( Const. Part I Art1(3)(c) ) and natural residents become citizens unless they opt otherwise.

Territory can be acquired by instrument of accession from legitimate Head of state of that territory or otherwise.

Even if we amend the COI to exclude foreign born Indian citizens or persons with acquired citizenship, Tibetans would still qualify as Natural born citizens in the event of accession and hence would not be debarred,
So the proposition by Rajesh has sound legal footing iff Bharat recognises Tibet as independent and HHDL as legitimate Head of State representing legal authority of Tibet people.
That means taking almost U turn in Indian policy towards Tibet.
India does have some objectionable references to Tibet in administrative machinery ( from Chinese point of view) . Special Frontier forces or SFF used to be consisting of Tibetans under Raa. ITBP proudly flaunts Tibet in its nomenclature. While Govt of Tibet in exile function from Dharmshala. I think they don't have any Ambassador to India.
It may be just a question of taking another bold step merit of which can be discussed here.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Sep 2010 23:44

naren wrote:no to all non vegetarianism. Then "no" to all militarism. ( They may learn one or two things from Bhagvat Gita) They would happily protect the chickens and goats and worms (remember the scene in "Seven years in Tibet" ?), but let down millions of their own people( this is what Chinese propagandists would like us to believe. I think HHDL is the last hope of Tibetan people before chinese oppression extinguish their culture.). Karma Yoga, not Buddhism, is the need of the hour.( Indeed correct. ) (In my personal experience, I'd strongly say that Karma Yoga and Buddhism are not contradictory.)

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 19 Sep 2010 23:48

Tibetans are honorary Indian citizens. Therefore, I do not see any harm in letting HH Dalai Lama run for the President's office.

naren · Post by **naren** » 20 Sep 2010 00:19

chaanakya wrote: this is what Chinese propagandists would like us to believe.).

I was not referencing/endorsing Chini propaganda ("serf emancipation"

) in anyway. HHDL Himself recognizes that the present "situation" is because of the decades of follies (ahimsa == no to militarism) of His ancestors.

I think HHDL is the last hope of Tibetan people before chinese oppression extinguish their culture.

HHDL is not the last hope. He has already constructed a strong system - the govt in exile -, with the full blessings and protection of the Indian people and her armed forces, which will continue His work. This system aint gonna be dismantled that easily.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 20 Sep 2010 00:26

Klaus wrote:Hope GOI is watching and following developments.

I dont know about GOI but CIA would be watching it for sure!
CIA watches HH DL more closely than even their Chinese counter parts.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Sep 2010 04:46

shiv wrote: I think India needs to perform a whole slew of things to irritate China in the same genre as the bench-odd behavior of stapled visas. Making shrill noises about Tibet, releasing a stamp in memory of those people China has suppressed and other symbolic things.

Agree. We are doing some of this though very timidly and not nearly enough. Take this World Buddhist Conclave with Chinese-style buildings in Bihar. Much more can be done along these lines--"Mt. Kailash, the Hindu mountain in Tibet" etc. etc--but more effective irritation will have to await less ossified leadership in Dilli.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Sep 2010 05:40

RajeshA wrote:
Atri wrote:Till then, no. HH Dalai Lama has too many western interests vested in him. Dangerous for such person to make a president.
Soon West is not going to be our biggest worry, but rather China. It is in fact good that he has such good relations with Western leaders. That would give Tibetan Accession to India a lot more legitimacy. Anyway, Presidency of India is a symbolic position mostly, so there is a limit to the damage a person in that position can do. That HH DL would really want to do damage to India is, if I may say so, actually absurd.

May be next HHDL.

I do not think IA, IN and IAF are well-placed to address the national need towards offensive or aggressive defence type of stand against both TSPA and PLA simultaneously at least for next 10-15 years. Current HHDL won't live that long (i wish I am wrong). Most probably next HHDL will be a Indian citizen by birth. If that successor is trained and his "guides" bought off to serve Indic interests the idea is feasible IMO.

President is privy to all the sensitive documents. Analogy is, Why test the thermo-nuke weapons unless delivery vessels and systems are ready and well-operationalized. Once they are operationalized, the weapons can be tested at will. Similarly, wait until the capability is acquired. hard-power has no substitute. It has to be earned hard way. The karma of "Lost decade" is now haunting us. Have to bear this "Karma-Phala". HHDL presidency OR symbolic accession of Tibet is like testing a round of nuke tests again. There are bound to be repercussions once you do it. Why do it too early? Get stronger (economy, demography, military, technology) and then test the bomb (i.e prick PRC wrt Tibet). Why invite sanctions (challenges) when we are not ready and when it can wait until we are ready.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Sep 2010 16:10

Remember what Htler said of the Pope."How many divisions does he have? The same could be said of HH the DL.The moral strengh of HH the DL over the Tibetan people and his stature worldwide as the tallest Buddhist leader,Nobel laureate,Hollwood favourite,etc.,is worth an entire army!

At this point in time,neither are the Chinese well placed to challenge India and antagonise many nations across Asia and the world.They are weakest in the naval arena.They do not have any of their future carriers operational,which wlll take a least 4-5 years to arrive able to do battle,wheras India wlll have two,if not three operational by 2015/16 (incl. Vraat whch can soldier on untl IAC-2 arrives).India by 2015 will also have a least three nculear subs operational,one or two Akulas and possible two ATVs,apart from inducting the first of the Scorpenes.Furthermore,Indian aircraft will be carrying air-launched versions of Brahmos and by 2016,we would've also operationlised our long range cruise mssile.

It is on the ground and in the air where we are stretched at the moment,more so in the air,as our numbers are not healthy at all and we lacl long range strategic and tactical bombers like the SU-34 or Backfire,which can deliver either nuclear o cnventional LR PGMs.It is imperative that in any future spat with China,we desroy the Tibetan ralway,and the road links through POK-by smply bringing down the mountainside through engineered landslides ,as well as destroyng the naval infrastructure at Gwadar.Our forces in J&K also require massiev increases,with at least another 10 new mountain divisions across J&K and the northern Himalayas to be raised.

Dr.Subrammmmaniam Swamy in today's papers had some v. interesting ideas for reinforcing our grip over J&K,by resettling the tens of thousands of retd. servicemen in he state,giving them lighter security-duty employment,but as a v.useful reserve.Great idea whch should be taken up post haste.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Sep 2010 16:54

Atri wrote:
Atri wrote:Till then, no. HH Dalai Lama has too many western interests vested in him. Dangerous for such person to make a president.
RajeshA wrote:Soon West is not going to be our biggest worry, but rather China. It is in fact good that he has such good relations with Western leaders. That would give Tibetan Accession to India a lot more legitimacy. Anyway, Presidency of India is a symbolic position mostly, so there is a limit to the damage a person in that position can do. That HH DL would really want to do damage to India is, if I may say so, actually absurd.
May be next HHDL..

That is the crucial thing. There is going to be NO next Dalai Lama. The next incarnation of Dalai Lama is found by the Panchen Lama. There are two Panchem Lamas in contention. One was chosen by the Chinese and one by Dalai Lama. The Chinese Panchen Lama was lately recognized by the Singaporean Chinese as well as the real Panchen Lama. The Panchen Lama chosen by Dalai Lama is in Chinese custody.

So after the current Dalai Lama passes away, the Chinese are going to insist on appointing a Dalai Lama of their choice using their nominee for Panchen Lama. The legitimate Panchen Lama in Chinese custody will not see the light of day. So there is going to be no Dalai Lama found amongst the Tibetans by Tibetan Lamas who care about Tibetan interests. That will be the end of the line.

Then is Tibet really China's.

Atri wrote:I do not think IA, IN and IAF are well-placed to address the national need towards offensive or aggressive defence type of stand against both TSPA and PLA simultaneously at least for next 10-15 years. Current HHDL won't live that long (i wish I am wrong). Most probably next HHDL will be a Indian citizen by birth. If that successor is trained and his "guides" bought off to serve Indic interests the idea is feasible IMO

Appointing HH DL as Indian President has nothing to do with any pressure to recapture Tibet during his Presidential Term. His Presidency is to give India the legitimacy to claim Tibet as part of India, and as such to intervene for the interests of both Tibetan people, and India's security needs.

Please read chaanakya's comment above. In case of Tibetan Accession to India, the question of Indian Citizenship is mute.

Atri wrote:President is privy to all the sensitive documents. Analogy is, Why test the thermo-nuke weapons unless delivery vessels and systems are ready and well-operationalized. Once they are operationalized, the weapons can be tested at will. Similarly, wait until the capability is acquired. hard-power has no substitute. It has to be earned hard way. The karma of "Lost decade" is now haunting us. Have to bear this "Karma-Phala". HHDL presidency OR symbolic accession of Tibet is like testing a round of nuke tests again. There are bound to be repercussions once you do it. Why do it too early? Get stronger (economy, demography, military, technology) and then test the bomb (i.e prick PRC wrt Tibet). Why invite sanctions (challenges) when we are not ready and when it can wait until we are ready.

There are four contentions I am trying to express:

Having Tibet's Accession (Symbolic) to India would go a long way in shoring up India's legitimacy and resolve over our borders.
It would be an essential step to push the Chinese on to the back foot, which if we don't would be catastrophic for realizing a strategic duopoly in Asia.
HH Dalai Lama is essential for Tibet's Accession to India. This is THE window of opportunity.
After he passes away, it will be a lost opportunity. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to get India back into the game of legitimacy over Tibet.

In some ways, I see this as the 1948 moment (Jammu & Kashmir) all over again. It was crucial and we were under severe time constraints. And we messed it up to a large extent though not completely, because of our dilly-dallying nature.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Sep 2010 20:03

RajeshA wrote: That is the crucial thing. There is going to be NO next Dalai Lama. The next incarnation of Dalai Lama is found by the Panchen Lama. There are two Panchem Lamas in contention. One was chosen by the Chinese and one by Dalai Lama. The Chinese Panchen Lama was lately recognized by the Singaporean Chinese as well as the real Panchen Lama. The Panchen Lama chosen by Dalai Lama is in Chinese custody.

So after the current Dalai Lama passes away, the Chinese are going to insist on appointing a Dalai Lama of their choice using their nominee for Panchen Lama. The legitimate Panchen Lama in Chinese custody will not see the light of day. So there is going to be no Dalai Lama found amongst the Tibetans by Tibetan Lamas who care about Tibetan interests. That will be the end of the line.

Then is Tibet really China's.

Appointing HH DL as Indian President has nothing to do with any pressure to recapture Tibet during his Presidential Term. His Presidency is to give India the legitimacy to claim Tibet as part of India, and as such to intervene for the interests of both Tibetan people, and India's security needs.

Please read chaanakya's comment above. In case of Tibetan Accession to India, the question of Indian Citizenship is mute.

There are four contentions I am trying to express:

Having Tibet's Accession (Symbolic) to India would go a long way in shoring up India's legitimacy and resolve over our borders.

It would be an essential step to push the Chinese on to the back foot, which if we don't would be catastrophic for realizing a strategic duopoly in Asia.

HH Dalai Lama is essential for Tibet's Accession to India. This is THE window of opportunity.

After he passes away, it will be a lost opportunity. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to get India back into the game of legitimacy over Tibet.
In some ways, I see this as the 1948 moment (Jammu & Kashmir) all over again. It was crucial and we were under severe time constraints. And we messed it up to a large extent though not completely, because of our dilly-dallying nature.

This is why I said current HHDL is the last hope. The only window of opportunity would be to get the moral authority of HHDL by getting Tibet to accede Union of India. This will rip open the chinese rear and the bamboo curtain will vanish in it rear side. There may not be any need to actually go and try to occupy tibet as there would be enough time for that.
As already pointed out we hold a lot of area which China calls part of Great Tibet so no problem in calling tibetans as our own citizens . Start by giving Visa free entry to Tibetans living in COT subject to office of HHDL clearance. One member has already pointed out MT Kailash holds importance in Indian History. In fact Mansarovar and Kailash are part of ancient India. So India can very well lay claim in its own right to these areas on the basis of presumptuous Chinese theory of calling any area as their own if they ruled even for a fraction of a second in past.

DO our policy makers have guts to carry it through as it would involve international pressures .

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Sep 2010 21:46

chaanakya wrote:One member has already pointed out MT Kailash holds importance in Indian History. In fact Mansarovar and Kailash are part of ancient India. So India can very well lay claim in its own right to these areas on the basis of presumptuous Chinese theory of calling any area as their own if they ruled even for a fraction of a second in past.

DO our policy makers have guts to carry it through as it would involve international pressures .

chaanakya ji,
I agree with you!

I'd like to make one comment on the issue of Mansarovar and Kailash. As such I would have said BJP should take up the case, and bring out a Rath Yatra around it, but .....

The next President would be chosen by Congress. If BJP taints HH Dalai Lama with their 'pro-Hindu' support, and such issues of Hindu appeal, I am afraid HH Dalai Lama would not be able to become the next President.

It is the Congress, that should adopt HH Dalai Lama's candidacy. It is the people that should build up pressure on the Congress to respond to Chinese pressure on India.

I find it best, that the issue of Mansarovar and Kailash Parbat be kept dormant for the time being. This should remain a purely Tibetan issue.

JMTs

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Sep 2010 22:23

Karan Dixit wrote:Tibetans are honorary Indian citizens. Therefore, I do not see any harm in letting HH Dalai Lama run for the President's office.

What is the fascination of Indians to take foreigners and place them on their heads??

You do not see any harm???

What does the Indian constitution have to say about this?

By the way the Dalai lama eats beef like all buddhists. I agree with his stance on Tibet but president of India??

Ludicrous.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Sep 2010 22:25

Rajesh ji.
Well , tactically I agree with you as well. However , a lot of Indians, not necessarily part of "Hindutva Brigade", feel like that. Otherwise GOI would not sponsor Yaatra and China would not be forced to allow it.

I overlooked your link to my comment on citizenship and I can say confidently that there would not be any problem of citizenship at all. COI is very very clear on it. If sovereign authority of Union of India extends to a territory, whether claimed by other country, the natural residents of that area would be citizens but classes of such residents would have to be notified. This facility would not extend to the area which are legally ( by instrument of accession) or morally claimed but not in actual control.

Please read Citizenship Act, 1955 Section 7 which reads as follows:

7. Citizenship by incorporation of territory-If any territory becomes part of India, the Central Government may, by order notified in the official gazette,specify the persons who shall be citizens of India by reason of connections to that territory; and those persons shall be citizens of India as from the date to be specified in the order.

( so no reason to fear that Hans residing in COT would become citizens)

Therefore, COT would have to wait, but HHDL and others , residing in India would be natural residents and surely such a provision would be incorporated in IOA. Perhaps India would like to make special provisions for COT residents ( could invoke section 7A of the Act referred to above)as well starting with Visa free arrival from any port of entry. May be like PIO status keeping both chinese and Indian status just to needle China.However , it should not become catalyst for exodus thereby undermining the cause itself.

Chetakji, Indians eat a lot more variety of food but none is hated for that. That is a non issue. If kongis feel comfortable with HHDL and sekloor credentials are enhanced they would love to do it but for the mortal fear of PRC that they have. In any case HHDL would be a worthy Precident and still he would have to run for it, being a demokratic process. We know the outcome if Kongis suipport . Witness last birth pangs this election had

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Sep 2010 22:47

chaanakya wrote:I overlooked your link to my comment on citizenship and I can say confidently that there would not be any problem of citizenship at all. COI is very very clear on it. If sovereign authority of Union of India extends to a territory, whether claimed by other country, the natural residents of that area would be citizens but classes of such residents would have to be notified. This facility would not extend to the area which are legally ( by instrument of accession) or morally claimed but not in actual control.

Please read Citizenship Act, 1955 Section 7 which reads as follows:

7. Citizenship by incorporation of territory-If any territory becomes part of India, the Central Government may, by order notified in the official gazette,specify the persons who shall be citizens of India by reason of connections to that territory; and those persons shall be citizens of India as from the date to be specified in the order.
( so no reason to fear that Hans residing in COT would become citizens)

Therefore, COT would have to wait, but HHDL and others , residing in India would be natural residents and surely such a provision would be incorporated in IOA. Perhaps India would like to make special provisions for COT residents ( could invoke section 7A of the Act referred to above)as well starting with Visa free arrival from any port of entry. May be like PIO status keeping both chinese and Indian status just to needle China.However , it should not become catalyst for exodus thereby undermining the cause itself.

chaanakya ji,
Thanks a lot. I had not taken the time to research the Citizenship Act. Thanks for enlightening me.

yogi · Post by **yogi** » 21 Sep 2010 00:22

RajeshA ji, brilliant arguments!! You've got another convert.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2010 00:41

chaanakya wrote:
Chetakji, Indians eat a lot more variety of food but none is hated for that. That is a non issue. If kongis feel comfortable with HHDL and sekloor credentials are enhanced they would love to do it but for the mortal fear of PRC that they have. In any case HHDL would be a worthy Precident and still he would have to run for it, being a demokratic process. We know the outcome if Kongis suipport . Witness last birth pangs this election had

chaanakya ji,

I am sorry if that came out wrong.

I do not hate the HHDL. I actually admire this tireless elderly gent. I saw him early this month from a distance of not more than 15 feet. Very dignified and has a great presence.

But the point I want to make is that what's wrong
with an Indian Indian??

We already have the rajmata who has been foisted on us, various yuvrajs and yuvranis waiting in the wings to clamber on to the gaddi.

If we haven't matured as a democracy in 60 odd years, we are all dead ducks and will soon go the way of our neighbors.

Why are we still fascinated with the foreigner??

Citizenship act and all that is OK. Lets keep India for India born Indians.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Sep 2010 00:46

chetak wrote:But the point I want to make is that what's wrong with an Indian Indian??

Why are we still fascinated with the foreigner??

Nothing is wrong with an Indian Indian. In fact that should be the default expectation.

But an Indian Indian as the next President cannot give India enhanced legitimacy on our border with China, nor can he help India overcome the Chinese strategic pressure on India.

HH DL can do that.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2010 00:58

RajeshA wrote: But an Indian Indian as the next President cannot give India enhanced legitimacy on our border with China, nor can he help India overcome the Chinese strategic pressure on India.

HH DL can do that.

RajeshAji,

This is really a disingenuous argument.

The only thing that will "give India enhanced legitimacy on our border with China" are the Indian Armed Forces. Make no mistake.

A little thing like the HHDL sitting in the Rashtrapati Bhavan as President is hardly going to hold up the hans.

Of course, they may die of laughter before they come swooping down.As will the rest of the world.

"nor can he help India overcome the Chinese strategic pressure on India." As a country we need to grow a pair. Not borrow them from an elderly non Indian person.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Sep 2010 01:12

chetak wrote:
RajeshA wrote: But an Indian Indian as the next President cannot give India enhanced legitimacy on our border with China, nor can he help India overcome the Chinese strategic pressure on India.

HH DL can do that.
RajeshAji,

This is really a disingenuous argument.

The only thing that will "give India enhanced legitimacy on our border with China" are the Indian Armed Forces.

That chetak ji, is the whole premise of this thread.

Military Strength is a superfluous and self-evident argument. That is the basis of all legitimacy in the end. Without military strength, the borders lose all legitimacy.

But it is not a question of whether our Armed Forces can defend our borders, but rather whether the Indian Leadership can resist making concessions to the Chinese and barter away our land without any fight, buying into the Chinese argument that Tibetan land is theirs.

chetak wrote:Make no mistake.

A little thing like the HHDL sitting in the Rashtrapati Bhavan as President is hardly going to hold up the hans.

Of course, they may die of laughter before they come swooping down.As will the rest of the world.

"nor can he help India overcome the Chinese strategic pressure on India." As a country we need to grow a pair. Not borrow them from an elderly non Indian person.

You have told India to grow a pair. What comes next? Will they grow by themselves? Would the advice be sufficient? Is it an effective mantra?

Well I am thinking of organ transplant from HH DL to GoI. If India does take this step, and Tibet is symbolically merged with India, then we could say that GoI's body is not rejecting the transplant. Then they may grow bigger.

For standing up to China, at the moment GoI doesn't have the pair you speak of, and that is a fact. This poll and thread is directed at exactly that goal you speak of.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2010 01:40

RajeshA wrote:
You have told India to grow a pair. What comes next? Will they grow by themselves? Would the advice be sufficient? Is it an effective mantra?

Well I am thinking of organ transplant from HH DL to GoI. If India does take this step, and Tibet is symbolically merged with India, then we could say that GoI's body is not rejecting the transplant. Then they may grow bigger.

For standing up to China, at the moment GoI doesn't have the pair you speak of, and that is a fact. This poll and thread is directed at exactly that goal you speak of.

Sorry to disappoint you saar.

HHDL does not own a pair of the size that India needs. You forget that he is a dedicated pacifist.
What about the Tibetans? He is their spiritual leader not ours. They will not agree. He was born and chosen to lead the people of Tibet and NOT India.

His days are numbered. Look at his age.

This whole HHDL for president is a fallacious idea.
The aam jantha will never tolerate this. The country will never be able to justify this in world opinion and will never live it down. Sort of like tharoor running for UN general secretary. Futile and deficient of sufficient fore thought.

It will cause instability in the region with far reaching consequences and great potential for a sino Indian conflict with paki rascals eager to show their gratitude for support for their all weather friends.

Our economic trajectory will slow down and incalculable harm will come to us as a result of this.

We will be set back god knows how many decades and all because of one non Indian. Will a billion odd Bharatvasis be willing to pay such a ridiculous price?

The hans will make a grab for energy before the push into India, The oil market will go through the roof with EU countries and US scrambling to protect their supply lines from the gulf.

Every one armed to the teeth and fingers on nuke buttons.

All this for one non Indian elderly old gent who would be horrified to learn that he is the subject of such a thread??

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Sep 2010 02:04

chetak wrote:He was born and chosen to lead the people of Tibet and NOT India.

He has done that quite well, no

? You doubt it? Okay read it here: What has the Dalai Lama achieved?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2010 02:30

SwamyG wrote:
chetak wrote:He was born and chosen to lead the people of Tibet and NOT India.
He has done that quite well, no ? You doubt it? Okay read it here: What has the Dalai Lama achieved?

Right SwamyG saar.

Looks like a planted and slanted article, but I take your point.

It still does not take away from the fact that he was found in accordance with some reading of cosmic(?) signs or whatever. Chosen and trained from tender childhood to provide spiritual solace and leadership to the tibetians. His people seem OK with what ever he has given them. Like anyone else, he also has detractors.

If he has truly achieved so little, why would he succeed in achieving any thing at all for India?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Sep 2010 03:16

chetak wrote:It will cause instability in the region with far reaching consequences and great potential for a sino Indian conflict with paki rascals eager to show their gratitude for support for their all weather friends. Our economic trajectory will slow down and incalculable harm will come to us as a result of this. We will be set back god knows how many decades and all because of one non Indian. Will a billion odd Bharatvasis be willing to pay such a ridiculous price? The hans will make a grab for energy before the push into India, The oil market will go through the roof with EU countries and US scrambling to protect their supply lines from the gulf. Every one armed to the teeth and fingers on nuke buttons. All this for one non Indian elderly old gent who would be horrified to learn that he is the subject of such a thread??

That will happen even without his involvement, simply because that is programmed to happen.

The question is how will the world be carved up, when dust settles. With Tibet's Accession in tow, India can end up in a better position. Without it, India too may be carved up.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 21 Sep 2010 03:58

Chetak:
I am in your camp, placing bets on him is misplaced. Yes that website is slanted, because it is from his detractors. Naturally, no? Only Mother Teresa's detractors would write things that her supporters would not write, same for Arundhati Roy and so on so on. Yeah, I would love Tibet (and Burma) to be part of India, which jingo would not?

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 21 Sep 2010 10:12

After kitchen, logically garden should come next.
So, HH Dalai Lama stands no chance.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 21 Sep 2010 10:39

As this thread is progressing, my support for His Holiness Dalai Lama is getting intensified. Once again, I think it is a wonderful idea. Kudos to whoever thought of this idea.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 21 Sep 2010 10:56

Karan Dixit wrote: , I think it is a wonderful idea. .

I will put money down on this never happening. I wonder if there is a word for great ideas that never gonna happen.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Sep 2010 11:52

TonyMontana wrote:
Karan Dixit wrote: , I think it is a wonderful idea. .
I will put money down on this never happening. I wonder if there is a word for great ideas that never gonna happen.

ansari our dearly beloved vice president has already set his little babu heart on becoming president as has narayan murthy who has bashfully declared that he will do his duty if called upon to make the supreme sacrifice. No vaccancy for HHDL for next ten years or so. After that maybe no HHDL too.

Except on this forum only, HHDL is not anywhere on the presidential sweepstakes horizon.

BTW, why not sussanah roy for the post? In one fell swoop we would have pleased the whole world as well as shot ourselves in the butt. The maoist problem would disappear because the Army would be forced to recruit them all. She would give away kashmir, hyderabad, junagadh, kerala, ladakh, aurnachal pradesh and siachin.

She would provide a six lane highway and rail corridor as well for the hans to freeely access our west coast.

Finally, when her term came to an end she would gracefully secede from the country.

All problems solved, no? kushali and haryali all around. All problems solved.

Why trouble a poor elderly gent in his sunset years?

naren · Post by **naren** » 21 Sep 2010 12:33

SwamyG wrote:
chetak wrote:He was born and chosen to lead the people of Tibet and NOT India.
He has done that quite well, no ? You doubt it? Okay read it here: What has the Dalai Lama achieved?

Boatloads of BS. Shugden followers have been penetrated by Chini agints. HHDL has defended His stand countless times. (link from official website) I dont understand why Shugdenists need to go over the top all the time.

Here's an example of Shugden psyops. Look at how professional it is shot/narrated and mountains made out of mole hill. Who plans/funds it ? You be the judge.

IMO, HHDL has done best with whatever available resources He had. He isnt any superman. Hailing from a remote cut off part of the world and a refugee, He has indeed done a great job so far. Rather than siding with Shugden and dissing Him, I would rather blame it on our own govt for all the failed policies. India must have done something for Tibet - WE failed them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Sep 2010 12:38

Firstly,Ms.Roy does not bring any dowry with her. That's why she would be unacceptable! Secondly,I doubt that "Who He?" would lose a wink of sleep in fear of Ms.Roy,unlike HH the DL who gives the PRC regular nightmares, at whose name they tremble,rant and rave and froth at the mouth.Thirdly,Ms.Roy is not a "head of state and head of faith" as HH the DL and the Pope are,and both hese worthy men have far greater intellectual,moral and international status than a part-time hack,with pretentsions of being a social activist.

naren · Post by **naren** » 21 Sep 2010 12:52

TonyMontana wrote:
Karan Dixit wrote: , I think it is a wonderful idea. .
I will put money down on this never happening. I wonder if there is a word for great ideas that never gonna happen.

Why the constant need to harp on its impossibility ? If its not going to happen, then you need to worry about it do you ?

--

I have observed this curious behaviour among many Chinese friends - they feel very threatened if they come across any idea which contradicts their own (i.e, official line). Collectivism at work. You can observe the same behaviour among RoPers when any of their beliefs are challenged. They still have long long way to go before they can truly appreciate democracy (respect for freedom of speech, right to dissent, agreeing to disagree etc.). May Allah bless them all.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 21 Sep 2010 13:06

Very interesting thread and thought provoking with excellent arguments and counter arguments.
I have a question.
Can President of India have more executive powers in some special circumstances,say a War?
Does our constitution provide any riders in case of a War which gives him more powers than being only a figure head

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Sep 2010 13:43

Karan Dixit wrote:Once again, I think it is a wonderful idea. Kudos to whoever thought of this idea.

That was Philip!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 21 Sep 2010 15:00

Altair wrote:Very interesting thread and thought provoking with excellent arguments and counter arguments.
I have a question.
Can President of India have more executive powers in some special circumstances,say a War?
Does our constitution provide any riders in case of a War which gives him more powers than being only a figure head

A very simple answer : NO
In case of any extraordinary situation the Cabinet ( rather, Council of Ministers) and PM gets all powers. Prz has to sign on dotted line on advice of the COM. That's the end of it. All other moral political or ethical arguments is not factored into the COI.
In states Governor would get power but bound by directions of Prz as aided and advised by COM

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Sep 2010 15:13

Guys,

Just some thoughts,

If Tibet was a part of India and for a period of 5 years HHDL was elected the president of India all the while retaining his position as the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism. I see no reason why this could not have been achieved. It would have been a beautiful expression of Indian secularism, not of the Kangress kind.

Also, HHDL being an incarnation of Buddha. Who in turn was the 8th avatar of Vishnu would have been be a powerful catalyst for the revival of Indic faiths. Having said and understood this, the DIE of India would never have allowed this to happen.

Anyway, all this line of thought is predicated upon Tibet being a part of India.

Currently it is not.

JMT

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 21 Sep 2010 15:24

chetak wrote: But the point I want to make is that what's wrong
with an Indian Indian??

Citizenship act and all that is OK. Lets keep India for India born Indians.

After IOA ,he would be a born Indian, wouldn't he? And there is nothing wrong with Indian Indian as there would be nothing wrong with Tibetan turned Indian Indian.

We would keep India for Indians, no doubt about that.How about changing the eligibility to include Born on Indian soil only. for PMship etc.
That would still make HHDL eligible ( in case of IOA)while some prominent entities would get disqualified.
I for one think there is no need to change the eligibility, its perfectly ok for me, personally speaking.

If Electoral College don't agree by a majority, he would not become prz. But let us not question his dignity, stature, intellect and philosophy. He may be pacifist and of no use to India in a war like situation but then he can always make great speeches to beseech China to follow the path of Panchasheel.

I also don't think China would go to war on this issue.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 21 Sep 2010 15:54

Thanks Chaanakya

RajeshA
If HH DL can be considered a choice for President of India, Can we not consider Abdul Hamid Khan,the chairman of BNF as Vice-President of India?
Altair

Should His Highness The Dalai Lama be elected India's next President?