Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): June 30, 2011

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 03 Jul 2011 03:38

Huh! What is this??? Shrill the old jalebi seems to be trying to throw a googly. Of course, her strategery and intentions are as much to be trusted as those of a cornered viper... One can clearly see the TFTA getting benefits under this plan. But pray why should the shivering-in-dhotis SDRE go for something like this?

Time to move on
http://thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail ... 5606&Cat=9

Fast-forward to June 2011 and Dr Shireen Mazari is giving a talk ... on “The security route to cooperation.” ...Dr Mazari unveils the centrepiece of “the security route to cooperation” between India and Pakistan: joint nuclear-power generation. She says by way of explanation: “After all, both Pakistan and India are conventional energy-deficient states and both are overt nuclear powers. So, there is no reason not to cooperate in the field of civil nuclear energy, with both countries sharing joint control of the relevant technology.” She also says that “the civil reactors built jointly for this purpose could be along the Indo-Pakistani border which would, in turn, add to their security also. Civil nuclear cooperation is not just a CBM, but an actual economic multiplier.”

Of course, for such friendliness goodies to be given to India from Pakistan, Shrill has some prerequisites that must be met, of course:

After “some movement on Kashmir,” of which she discerns signs within the Indian civil society and human rights organisations, and after display of political will by the governments of India and Pakistan for settlements to the Siachin and Sir Creek issues...

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 03 Jul 2011 04:18

All-weather Friends: Deepening China-Pakistan Ties. An Analysis

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Financial Times, July 1, 2011 (Print Version); June 30, 2011 (web version)

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A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 03 Jul 2011 04:47

The siege of Parachinar.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/52761

Parachinar, in Pakistan’s tribal north west, remains under siege. The only road connecting this district bordering Afghanistan to the rest of Pakistan has been blocked by Taliban fighters since 2007.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 03 Jul 2011 05:54

sum wrote:^^ Why is MKB so ceaselessly batting for the TSPA in the last few articles?

Actually it is very simple. He is just seeing the reality as it is approaching and he is someone who has no need to brandish his jingoism to make himself feel good. He can see and accept reality. Due to excessive time spent on BR people here are convinced that pakistan is going to break or something bad will happen to pakistan but that is INCORRECT. Pakistan is not going anywhere and nothing is going to change radically as is a pet dream of many BRFites who pride themselves on being jingoist. No matter what is said here about pakis or what pakis themselves believe, they were Indians and they have all the strengths and weaknesses of Indians. Their real and biggest impediment is Islam and that is going to ensure that they do not utilize their full potential but again nothing drastic is going to happen to pakistan as a country. Being in a cocoon people here will keep fooling themselves and then keep wondering why people outside the cocoon do not share their views and opinions.

Last year or so was a great upsurge in favorite time pass of pakis...indulging in terrorism...and part of that was purposely not controlled to create a picture that paki authorities are really useless and impotent but in really they just wanted to embolden the terrorists to come out in open and track their hidden cells as much as possible. Now silently those cells are being eliminated and the process will gradually intensify.

I am not advocating to become a WKK here but just trying to point out the reality as I see it.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 03 Jul 2011 05:57

One can clearly see the TFTA getting benefits under this plan. But pray why should the shivering-in-dhotis SDRE go for something like this?

The sense of entitlement amongst the Pakistanis, notwithstanding, their society is essentially intellectually and operationally incapable of competing in a global economy without using opium or terrorism as a pylon.

The chutzpah will not get them anywhere - sooner, they realize that they still have to climb many rungs of the ladder to catch up with the rest of the human race, the better it is for them. Moreover, as Shiv puts it, the agrarian economy of Pakistan implies that the ONLY hope for Pakistani people is to get trade and market concessions from a growing Indian nation.

In any case, India should spend about 3% to 3.25% on defense with healthy offsets and some arm-twisting of arms-providers will be a good step to take for the Indian government. Neither the US nor China will be willing to offset those numbers for Pakistan. Fully utilizing the eastern rivers of the Indus will also be a good step.

Both the US and China should have realized by now, that long term investments on an inherently extremist people (such as the Pakistanis) is a bad proposition, though short term services maybe negotiated for.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 06:02

CRamS wrote: US has always known about TSPA/ISI/LeT bonding. For a long time, US position was that LeT is a terrorist org with "regional" goals as opposed to the mighty "Al Queda" which is a "global" Isalmic terrorist org wanting to destroy the Christian west. Somewhere along the lines, especially after 26/11, there was this link established between mighty Al Queda and regional LeT, and some US officials started confronting TSPA/ISI with that link. Recall that clause in the Kerry Lugar bill that TSP must also crack down on LeT, and the amount of heartburn this clause caused in TSP.

Nowhere in that Wikipedia article you have linked, and in none of the articles that I have read by anyone else has the conclusion been reached that Pakistan will draw the line at clamping down in the LeT. That Christine Fair article is the first one. Like you I have been following all this every closely. Fair may be a b!tch, but even a bltch can sometimes whelp a useful pup.

Everyone in the world might know that LeT and Paki government are related , but Christine Fair's article is the first one to publicly point out that the relationship is so close that the Paki government considers it to be dangerous to go against the LeT and, by implication it would not be possible to threaten or cajole the Pakis to give up the LeT in the manner that Musharraf gave up on the Taliban after Amritraj threatened him a decade ago. I think the policy implications of this are being missed because the conclusion itself is being missed out of hatred for Fair.

If the US continues to support the LeT indirectly by supporting the Paki government it would hardly make a difference to India. But if the US tries to break the LeT the Paki government will fall.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jul 2011 06:22

I have always believed that the LeT consisted of two parts. One part, the core, is the PA which provides training, arms, ammunition, and logistics, while the other part, the periphery, recruits vulnerable people, does Islamist brainwashing, collects huge funds, runs hospitals&schools etc. The LeT is the sword arm of the PA. This is the difference between other tanzeems and the LeT. There is no way therefore for GoP to take any action against the LeT. The investigation done by the French anti-terrorism judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere into 'la affaire' Willie Brigitte makes it completely clear.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Jul 2011 06:32

SSridhar:

Indeed, but not to get into a useless war of semantics and words with Dr. Shv, as he and I are on the same side

, but does the so called revelation that Fair bimbo reveals about LeT excite you as much as it does Shiv? The simple point is that it is in US interests to cast LeT as a regional organization with no connction to the "mighty" Al Queda that TSP is taking on and thats what Fair baby is trying to do. Also, one other point. As much as everbody is trying to convince/persuade TSP that extremism is consuming TSP itself, at least when it comes to LeT, its an asset to TSP visa vi India, not someone who harms it.

I am missing one other treaties by a US expert, Tarantano or some similar sounding name who did extensive reserach on LeT, and has pointed out the deep relationship between LeT and TSPA/ISI. His R&D pdf was posted here a while back. Do you recall who I am talking about?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jul 2011 06:33

jrjrao wrote:Huh! What is this??? Shrill the old jalebi seems to be trying to throw a googly.
Time to move on
http://thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail ... 5606&Cat=9
. . . “The security route to cooperation.” ...Dr Mazari unveils the centrepiece of “the security route to cooperation” between India and Pakistan: joint nuclear-power generation. She says by way of explanation: “After all, both Pakistan and India are conventional energy-deficient states and both are overt nuclear powers. So, there is no reason not to cooperate in the field of civil nuclear energy, with both countries sharing joint control of the relevant technology.” She also says that “the civil reactors built jointly for this purpose could be along the Indo-Pakistani border which would, in turn, add to their security also. Civil nuclear cooperation is not just a CBM, but an actual economic multiplier.”
Of course, for such friendliness goodies to be given to India from Pakistan, Shrill has some prerequisites that must be met, of course:
After “some movement on Kashmir,” of which she discerns signs within the Indian civil society and human rights organisations, and after display of political will by the governments of India and Pakistan for settlements to the Siachin and Sir Creek issues...

A very typical Pakistani demand. This is a demand, not a suggestion. Audacious. What can Pakistan offer in terms of expertise on nuclear reactor technology ? Isn't it like saying, "you bring paddy, I will bring husk and we will together make rice" ?

In any relationship with India, it will be Pakistan that will enormously and significantly gain, not India and yet it demands pre-conditions. It has been the Pakistani practice. The PA laid down conditions when ZAB met Mrs. IG at Shimla with 93000 PoWs in Indian custody, half their country gone and the PA routed !

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 06:35

SSridhar wrote:I have always believed that the LeT consisted of two parts. One part, the core, is the PA which provides training, arms, ammunition, and logistics, while the other part, the periphery, recruits vulnerable people, does Islamist brainwashing, collects huge funds, runs hospitals&schools etc. The LeT is the sword arm of the PA. This is the difference between other tanzeems and the LeT. There is no way therefore for GoP to take any action against the LeT. The investigation done by the French anti-terrorism judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere into 'la affaire' Willie Brigitte makes it completely clear.

Absolutely - and this is well known. However the US has

1. Believed that the "secular, moderate" Pakistani military can be bribed and supported against India to stop support for all Islamic terrorist groups. Solving Cashmere will make Pakistan better
and
2. The US has believed that if push comes to shove sufficient threats from the US will make the Pakistan army see light.

What Fair has done in her article is to

1. State out in the open what we know and what the US does not seem to understand. She clearly points out that "all Islamist groups" are painted with the same brush by the US imagining that the Paki government is separate from them and can somehow be weaned away by various tricks including support against India

2. She points out that the LeT paki army/establishment links are so close that breaking one could break the other.

Unless the US government at the highest levels understands that Paki support for LeT is a different ball game from its support to the Taliban or Haqqani faction or whatever, we will continue to see the US bribing Pakistan and hoping that solving the Cashmere issue will cause Pakistan to give up on the LeT

Christine Fair clearly states that solving the Cashmere issue to Pakistan's satisfaction will still not make the Pakis give up on the LeT.. She is perfectly right. We know that. Our complaint about the US and others is that they don't know that.

But here is the much hated Fair saying exactly what we believe!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Jul 2011 06:43

SSridhar wrote:In any relationship with India, it will be Pakistan that will enormously and significantly gain, not India and yet it demands pre-conditions. It has been the Pakistani practice. The PA laid down conditions when ZAB met Mrs. IG at Shimla with 93000 PoWs in Indian custody, half their country gone and the PA routed !

Look at it from TSP's POV which is not easy. They are willing to go down the current path with a nuke show down destroying both countries. But India does not have a stomach for that. So it is indeed TSP that percieves itself as the victor and is demanding pre-conditions to end the stale mate. Especailly after MMS's decision to surrender post Mumbai, I don't consider it outlandish at all that TSP considers itself as the victor, it is as far as its proxy war on India goes.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Jul 2011 06:44

Shankk wrote:
Last year or so was a great upsurge in favorite time pass of pakis...indulging in terrorism...and part of that was purposely not controlled to create a picture that paki authorities are really useless and impotent but in really they just wanted to embolden the terrorists to come out in open and track their hidden cells as much as possible. Now silently those cells are being eliminated and the process will gradually intensify.
it.

++1

May2 attack of US to kill OBL was TSPA's idea to smoke out all CIA cells in Pakistan.

And, the Mehran attack was ISI's plan to smoke out all beards from Paki-navy.

Soon ISI is going to support Paki-Taliban to split TSPA so they can weed out all Islamic elements from TSPA.

Shankkji, what you don't know is that the so-called BRJingos are ISI agents in disguise. They are trying to lure Indians to invade Pakistan so pakis can finish IA like they did with russians and more recently Americans.

Shhhhh... Don't tell this secret to anyone....

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 03 Jul 2011 06:52

Jyoti Malhotra: A historic moment in the AfPak region

Posting here because it is less about 'Af' and more about 'pak'.

Instead of the hand-wringing that could follow in the innards of Delhi, think, also, of the opportunities this throws up for India: Intensifying the relationship with the Hamid Karzai administration, talking to the Taliban (it helps that Karzai is also talking to them), opening up all channels of dialogue with Pakistan — political, civil society, the military — and reiterating to all those Nato nations readying to flee that India is willing to take responsibility for its part of the world.

Most significant, the impending chaos in the AfPak region allows India to rebuild bridges with all those nations Delhi has ignored far too long: China, Russia, Iran as well as the Central Asian states.

This is the rare, if fragile, moment unfolding inside Pakistan, in which Pakistanis are rediscovering the courage to name their faultlines within.

Mark the intense churning taking place around the murder of Saleem Shahzad, the former editor of Asia Times Online, allegedly at the behest of the ISI, and the killing of an unarmed 18-year-old boy at the hands of the Sindh Rangers. Pakistan’s judiciary has served notice and a nation-wide revulsion against the state that Pakistan has become in 60 years, is taking place.

If India’s civil society — including the media — can show solidarity and support for its compatriots in Pakistan, this might become one of those transformative moments in South Asia's history.

Incredibly wishful thinking. All the churning and revulsion is isolated and momentary; the population at large is still enamored with Islamism and terrorism. India's civil society and media have done nothing but show compassion for ordinary people in Pukistan, even after decades of terror attacks, and have had no impact on their hawkish thinking.

The only thing that has overawed the pakis is India's economic growth and military might. So let's keep our powder dry and prepare to support Afghanistan against the inevitable Paki proxy war via the Taliban.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Jul 2011 06:56

Airavat:

Indeed it is wishful thinking. Tells you how helpless Indian strategic elite are in dealing with TSP. What they may not not know, or know but won't acknowledge, or know but don't mind doing what is required (MMS types) is that TSP is basically saying we go down, we take you down with us. So, give us, this, this, and this.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jul 2011 07:11

Jyoti Malhotra is past master at WKKis

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Jul 2011 07:13

Shankk wrote:I am not advocating to become a WKK here but just trying to point out the reality as I see it.

The issue is not TSP remaining one or breaking into pieces, the issue is terrorism sponsored by TSPA. When that reality is becoming clear even to former sceptics and 'head buried in the sand' ostriches of the western world and increasingly they are using the sort of language they would use when talking about gangsters and drug dealers....notice how the usual disclaimer of 'Pakistan denies that it supports terrorists' is gradually disappearing from standard western media reports...instead they are treated as two timing jehadi crooks they are... even within TSP that reality is seeping in amongst the handful of liberals and ordinary public.

Yet we have MKBs that are singing the TSPA's praise and trying to project every step they make as intelligent, smart and correct..

Surely there is some hidden agenda here.

It is hilarious to see you suggest that TSPA "allows" terrorism to happen because they want to 'smoke' them out...by now there is a lot of smoke in TSP..would you suggest that solution for your city and neighbourhood?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 07:25

Suppiah wrote: Yet we have MKBs that are singing the TSPA's praise and trying to project every step they make as intelligent, smart and correct..?

Well if someone thinks India has lost to Pakistan, then Pakistan must have won. There are many jingoistic "well meaning" BRFites who wring their hands once per page pointing out how India has lost. Yes on this page too. Surely MKB is merely one of us. He too thinks India has lost.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Jul 2011 07:33

Karan M wrote:Jyoti Malhotra is past master at WKKis

Her article is quite 'mild' she is simply repeating MKB's suggestion that India should talk to Taliban. I see no issues there, if we can talk to TSP we can talk to anyone. Perhaps the Talibans are desperate to get rid of their two timing ISI sponsors and find some reliable friends. There are numerous reports that say Taliban commanders don't have any respect for Pakis. It will also brownify some TSPA pants and make them more vulnerable..

The other suggestion to liberalise visa regime is also not bad provided it is done with enough care...the backgrounds of the people need to be checked. Just do what Unkil is doing - he checks and checks and when satisfied, gives 10 year visas. Similarly we should allow Pakis with known track record of being India friendly (there are many) to come and go as they please...that also allows us to issue 10 year visas to all minorities in TSP who can have a legitimate place to go should they feel threatened.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Jul 2011 07:33

Many "well meaning" BRites wring their hands because of MMS's policies, not because India has lost. There is a huge area between all out nuke show down which TSP/US wants, and MMS's surrender which many "well meaning" BRites spin as some kind of Chanakyan maneuver.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Jul 2011 07:34

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Jul 2011 07:35

shiv wrote:Surely MKB is merely one of us. He too thinks India has lost.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 07:39

Suppiah wrote:
Karan M wrote:Jyoti Malhotra is past master at WKKis
Her article is quite 'mild' she is simply repeating MKB's suggestion that India should talk to Taliban. I see no issues there, if we can talk to TSP we can talk to anyone. Perhaps the Talibans are desperate to get rid of their two timing ISI sponsors and find some reliable friends. There are numerous reports that say Taliban commanders don't have any respect for Pakis. It will also brownify some TSPA pants and make them more vulnerable..

I like the idea of talking to Taliban provided the idea is to set up a Pashtunistan on both sides of the Durand line. That would split both Pakistan and Afghanistan - something that needs to be done. The idea that someone in the US has considered this was posted on here a few days and a few weeks ago - can't recall who. Personally I fully endorse a Pashtunistan. It gives the Pashtuns the state they have always wanted, and de recognizes the Durand line. It reduces the problems faced by the Pakistani state in their troubled northwest regions- they are our brothers after all and I would like to help them get better.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Jul 2011 07:44

shiv wrote:I like the idea of talking to Taliban provided the idea is to set up a Pashtunistan on both sides of the Durand line.

That's gonna be quite tricky...our best and long term friends there are the northerners, Tajiks, Uzbeks etc., who will not like us to split Afghan...in fact the very fact that we are talking to Taliban would anger them. So ways have to be found to carry them along without two timing them as Pakbarians would do..but I think if we simply let Taliban be friendly with us, and at least neutral wrt TSP, that will happen anyway so no one can blame us..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2011 07:51

Suppiah wrote:
shiv wrote:I like the idea of talking to Taliban provided the idea is to set up a Pashtunistan on both sides of the Durand line.
That's gonna be quite tricky...our best and long term friends there are the northerners, Tajiks, Uzbeks etc., who will not like us to split Afghan...in fact the very fact that we are talking to Taliban would anger them. So ways have to be found to carry them along without two timing them as Pakbarians would do..

This is an interesting point and that has occurred to me. It's a tough choice but I think the Northern people can be convinced that peace and development and the control of Kabul can be ensured if the pesky Taliban have their Pahstun nation - perhaps with Quetta as capital? Or would it be Peshawar?

I am not sure that the Afghans have a "sense of nation" like others. Afghanistan. like Somalia is an "area". The British "defined" the southern border arbitrarily (at the Durand line) in the same way as the Brits and others arbitrarily created "Somali" borders. Let the Northern Afghans to develop their own relations with Pashtunistan rather than dealing with Pakis

After all we are already well into the process of making borders irrelevant with our brothers. We keep our borders open to Pakis. They allow in WKKs while we allow in Paki terrorists. I think we should look for the dissolution of the Durand line too. Let it be "borderless"

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 03 Jul 2011 08:05

Nato caused ‘Rs110bn damage to roads’

ISLAMABAD: A parliamentary committee asked the ministries of finance, foreign affairs and defence on Saturday to take notice of the damage caused to roads by the heavy Nato vehicles supplying goods and fuel to troops in Afghanistan.

The committee said all the relevant ministries and departments, including finance, foreign affairs, communications and railways, should assess the damage and prepare a comprehensive report so that the issue could be taken up with Nato authorities.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 03 Jul 2011 08:16

Letters to the Editor -- DT

Can a gora not be Muslim?

Sir: This summer I am interning with a charitable organisation based in Bani Gala, which is composed largely of foreign volunteers. One of these volunteers, from Australia, has a son who came to Pakistan recently. I got to know him, and he was enthusiastic to learn about Islam. He told me he had considered converting to our religion, so I taught him the first kalima. We were both looking forward to praying on Jummah (Friday congregational prayer) at the Faisal Mosque, especially my friend, whom I will call Mark. I just had the best of intentions at heart — show a gora (white person) the pluralistic, accepting nature of Islam. I brought over some shalwar kameezes and his mom took pictures of us wearing them. It was a great feeling.
When we arrived at the mosque, I realised how truly disgusting our approach to white people is. Surely, there were the stares. But whereas I got into the prayer hall easily, Mark was stopped. He was forced to produce an ID and promptly told that he could not pray inside. The guard somehow came to the conclusion that he was a non-Muslim, whereas I was, even though he did not even ask my name. Racism? Yes. Meanwhile, some long-bearded man sensing a potential ‘Amreekan conspiracy’ [American conspiracy] leaned in to read the information on Mark’s ID. I really cannot summarise how it felt to be standing there. I pleaded with the guard to let us in. “Were our ancestors not Hindu until somebody convinced them of the beauty of Islam?’” I implored, but to no avail.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 03 Jul 2011 08:25

shiv wrote:I think we should look for the dissolution of the Durand line too. Let it be "borderless"

Nice idea...when they talk about 'self determination' we talk about balochistan...when they talk about 'border irrelevant' we talk about Durand line...

Another possibility is that we sell the idea to Northern Alliance as Afghan+, ie Pashtun lands get united and remain part of Afghan nation - that would appeal to Talibs (who never recognised Durand line, even when they were dependent on TSPA/ISI) and also to others...

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 03 Jul 2011 08:35

CRamS wrote: Look at it from TSP's POV which is not easy. They are willing to go down the current path with a nuke show down destroying both countries. But India does not have a stomach for that. So it is indeed TSP that percieves itself as the victor and is demanding pre-conditions to end the stale mate. Especailly after MMS's decision to surrender post Mumbai, I don't consider it outlandish at all that TSP considers itself as the victor, it is as far as its proxy war on India goes.

I don't see how Pakis could see themselves as victor when they are getting there ass whupped on one side by Uncle Sam and on the other by their own frankenstein monsters.

Remember they had nukes in 1999 (Kargil) too but in the end abjectly skied downhill!

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 03 Jul 2011 08:59

So yesterday, there was held a packed conference in Lahore called "Pakistan Pa’indabad (Long live Pakistan) Conference", in which was said:

LAHORE – Pakistan is an undeniable reality and will remain so till the doomsday, and evil forces both inside and outside the country will be defeated in due course provided the nation becomes an impregnable entity by uniting against the nefarious designs of the US and India.

“It is a must that the US should leave and put a halt to drone attacks, while India must be taught a lesson never to be forgotten for occupying Pakistan’s jugular vein Kashmir,” he said, while urging the youth to become Mujahideen for liberating Kashmir as did their ancestors in 1947. “Kashmir cannot be liberated sans Jihad, and the youth should wage it,” he said.

And the chief guest at this Paindu conference was none other than Pakjab Chief Minister Punjab Shahbaz Sharif, who declared:

Time has come to decide whether “we have to accept the death with honour or live in humiliation”.

“I will let my head chopped off but will never accept such charity and aid from the outsiders that is soaked in the blood of innocent Pakistanis and a blot on the honour and sovereignty of the country,” he said....

Link

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Jul 2011 09:10

shiv wrote:
For the first time in my career, I came face to face with terrorists who had
fought Indian forces in Kashmir. It was during a visit to a prison in the
Panjsher Valley where the Northern Alliance held captured Taliban and Al Qaeda
soldiers. In this jail, on the banks of the river Panj, were a number of
terrorists who were happy to recount to us their experiences in Kashmir. All of
them had been trained in camps in Pakistan ... which was no surprise, but what
was a surprise was the ethnic spread of of these men. There was an Urghor tribal
from China who spoke fluent Urdu, a Myanmarese man in addition to a couple of
Pakistanis all of whom described in great detail how they had been trained to
engage Indian forces and how they have been lucky enough to make it out of
Kashmir. The international movement of the Al Qaeda and the Taliban had brought
them to Afghanistan after their "tour of duty" in Kashmir.
This should end speculation and delusion about the presence or absence of Pakistan trained foreign fighters in Kashmir - which is something that I find people denying to this day.

Shri L. K. Advani did not present a white paper on terrorism in 2000 because it contained information about foreign fighters in J&K. We did not want to "internationalize" the issue. (Source: Lt Gen V K Sood's book on Operation Parakram.)

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 03 Jul 2011 09:13

Suppiah wrote:
shiv wrote:Surely MKB is merely one of us. He too thinks India has lost.

Describes collective hand-wringing on BRF to a T. The narrative is very high in negative content about what is wrong with everything GoI does. However, I rarely see a serious post (ignoring the "nuke them" category), even a micro-post, about what GoI *should* do, when it should do it and what would be the consequences of that action. We are all armchair generals and FMs combined -- surely, there is an answer to Packee problem that does not require filling up 72 pages every week or two.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 03 Jul 2011 09:38

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/war ... story.html
(Poaksoors finally gone over the mental cliff?)

Afghans infuriated by shelling from Pakistan

KABUL — Public and political anger at weeks of cross-border shelling from Pakistan boiled over in Afghanistan, as protesters took to the streets of the capital, lawmakers demanded explanations from the central government, and a senior border police official submitted his resignation.According to Afghan officials, more than 760 rockets have been fired into the eastern Afghan border provinces of Konar, Nangahar and Khost in the past six weeks, killing at least 60 people and wounding or displacing hundreds more.
Afghan officials, including President Hamid Karzai, have lodged formal objections with Pakistan’s government, but Pakistani officials have denied direct involvement in the attacks, saying they are being carried out by anti-Afghan militias beyond their control. “The people carrying the bodies of their loved ones on their backs come to me. I am the responsible person here, but nobody is listening to my voice,” said Gen. Aminullah Amarkhel, chief of the national border police in eastern Afghanistan, who offered his resignation Friday in the past week in protest. He spoke by telephone to an Afghan TV news channel.In downtown Kabul, about 200 demonstrators staged a peaceful rally Saturday outside the U.N. representative’s office, chanting, “Down with Pakistan, down with the Pakistani army, down with the ISI,” a reference to Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency.“The government must break its silence on these attacks,” said Najibullah Kabuli, a political activist who organized the rally.
Interior Minister Bismillah Mohammadi told legislators that in several recent meetings, Afghan officials had shown Pakistani officials shrapnel, shell casings and ammunition as evidence of the attacks, but that “each time they shamelessly deny it.” He said he had told the Pakistanis, “You want to hide something as big as the sun with two fingers.”
Defense Minister Abdul Rahim Wardak also said diplomatic efforts had failed to stop the cross-border attacks. Afghanistan has long accused Pakistan’s military and intelligence services of supporting some Islamist militant groups, including those that seek to destabilize Afghanistan. “This violation . . . has hurt the feeling of every son of this nation and necessitates an urgent reaction,” Wardak said. He urged the lawmakers to deliberate carefully but said that if he is ordered to respond militarily, “we will not spare our lives or whatever we have.”

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Jul 2011 10:17

X Posted from the ISI History and Discussions thread.

The citizens of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan reportedly belatedly discover that the Uniformed Jihadi's of the Military are incompetent, corrupt and prone to abusing power:

Scandals taint revered Pakistan military

The military establishment, which long dominated politics and society, is accused of incompetency, corruption and abuse of power after the Bin Laden raid and other incidents.

By Mark Magnier, Los Angeles Times

July 3, 2011
Reporting from Islamabad, Pakistan—

It's difficult to overstate the respect that Pakistan's military has enjoyed among its people. Since the nation's violent birth in 1947, the armed services have been touted as the glue holding the country together, having waged three wars with India, defended Pakistan's part of divided Kashmir, safeguarded the Islamic world's only known nuclear weaponry and battled growing domestic terrorist attacks.

In recent weeks, however, the military and its shadowy spymaster cousin, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, termed "the establishment" here, have been rocked by charges of incompetency, corruption, abuse of power and extrajudicial killings.

"I'm 37 and in my lifetime I never imagined the Pakistani army and the ISI would be bludgeoned in public like this," said Mazur Zaidi, a documentary filmmaker. "The narrative they built up over 63 years is cracking."

If the challenge to that narrative — that the military and intelligence services are above reproach — is sustained, it could have broad implications for Pakistan's democracy, regional relations and the fight against on terrorism, some analysts said.

By dominating Pakistan's domestic politics, national budget and foreign affairs, the military establishment has hampered development of a more representative government, placed undue priority on facing down India and gobbled up resources better spent on education, electricity and the economy, critics said………………………….

L.A. Times

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Jul 2011 11:34

The UK’s Daily Mail is dismissive of the gift given by the President of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Asif Zardari to the UK’s Prime Minister and terms the gift a “bizarre present” and suggests that it fall within the category of a “tacky offering”

:

Where shall we hang this, dear? Camerons given portrait of themselves with baby Florence by visiting Pakistan PM

By Daily Mail Reporter

Last updated at 2:13 PM on 2nd July 2011

One can only imagine David Cameron's reaction when he saw the gift... one for the downstairs loo perhaps.

The bizarre present from Pakistan president Asif Ali Zardari to the Prime Minister is a painting of the Camerons with their baby daughter Florence.

It was taken from photographs of the couple as they presented their newborn to the world on the steps of Number 10 last August.

Hardly an inspired choice, but then the most powerful leaders in the world have a bit of a track record when it comes to presenting tacky offerings.

But Pakistan's President Asif Ali Zardari does not appear to have understood quite how the etiquette works

Critics claim something similar could be knocked out with the help of a computer within a day..................

And further an interesting comment to the article:

If someone gave me hundreds of millions of pounds for doing nothing and let me act as I please - up to and including obstructing them or working against their interests - I would probably give them a painting too.

- no, thanks, 02/7/2011 15:57

Read it all:

Daily Mail, UK

James B · Post by **James B** » 03 Jul 2011 11:48

'Disengaging Pak post 26/11 may be an error' ; Says foreign secretary Rao

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Jul 2011 12:00

James B wrote:'Disengaging Pak post 26/11 may be an error' ; Says foreign secretary Rao

With all due resect to NirupamaJi, after all, she is only a light-weight taking orders, but this is diplomatic gobly gook. I mean on 26/11, TSP conducted a state-sponored terrorist attack, an act of war. And her pathetic conclusion is that dis-engagement is a mistake? What next, saying that India's policy of not giving in to TSP demands is a mistake? Give me a break. This is laughable if not tragic.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 03 Jul 2011 12:02

Not giving away J&K to TSP was a mistake too. (My a$$)

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Jul 2011 12:46

Dilbu wrote:Not giving away J&K to TSP was a mistake too. (My a$$)

Exactly, I won't be surprised if after giving away the valley to TSP, and there is no initial reaction from Indians at large (which I suspect could very well be the case if such an outcome were managed well through the dork media), some NirupamaJi like diplomat will come out and say, jee, not giving away the valley to TSP soon after 1989 was a mistake because so many lives would have been saved.

One can spin any nonsense through diplomatic mumbo jumbo. In no self respecting country, will this kind of a surrender by a govt will be given a free pass like in India. I wonder what follow up question thappad asked NirupamaJi. Given that he himself is another one of those useless, self-loathing, WKK corrupt cowards, I won't be surprised if he fed her a few soft balls that she could score a sixer off and fool the Indian public with more gobly gook, who in any case don't have much time for such important issues and what it means to barter away the soul of their nationhood using the US-sponsored ruse of "impending superpower" crap.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 03 Jul 2011 13:14

CRamS wrote:
James B wrote:'Disengaging Pak post 26/11 may be an error' ; Says foreign secretary Rao
With all due resect to NirupamaJi, after all, she is only a light-weight taking orders, but this is diplomatic gobly gook. I mean on 26/11, TSP conducted a state-sponored terrorist attack, an act of war. And her pathetic conclusion is that dis-engagement is a mistake? What next, saying that India's policy of not giving in to TSP demands is a mistake? Give me a break. This is laughable if not tragic.

Rao doesnt say that (in the link posted). The headline seems to be the imagination and psy-ops of the ibn channel and thapar.

Her message was they couldnt continue the simple disengagement as a policy because of external pressures and that mere disengagement wasnt yielding benefits. So either govt had to go forward in terms of not talking and actually show the danda or rollback. They chose rollback.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Jul 2011 13:26

^^ But she is basically saying if if the next attack happens ( with Kayani himself calling stations to claim responsibility), India wont even try the fig leaf of cutting talks etc and will continue to "engage" as if nothing happened!

Chankian stuff..