Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

[Singha]

does anyone know when slavery was abolished in south american countries? brazil seems to have a good number of blacks while nearby uruguay, chile and argentina have almost none. Haiti afaik was founded by freed slaves from neighbouring places as was Liberia. infact I believe some american leaders after abolition of slavery encouraged the freed blacks to migrate back to their former continent , never mind nobody had a trace of where they were abducted from and had lost the language and most of the culture.

wiki
Liberia is one of only two modern countries in Sub-Saharan Africa without roots in the European Scramble for Africa. Beginning in 1820, the region was colonized by freed American slaves with the help of the American Colonization Society, a private organization that believed ex-slaves would have greater freedom and equality in Africa. Slaves freed from slave ships were also sent there instead of being repatriated to their countries of origin. In 1847, these colonists founded the Republic of Liberia, establishing a government modeled on that of the United States and naming the capital city Monrovia after James Monroe, the fifth president of the United States and a prominent supporter of the colonization. The colonists, known as Americo-Liberians, monopolized the political and economic sectors of the country despite comprising only a small percentage of the largely indigenous population.

[Prem]

Nature works mysteriously. Islam wanted converts and Got handful in Poakroaches. What a sweet revenge.in the end only one of them Can survive.
When they are long gone Amritputras will have the last laugh.

[parsuram]

There is fair amount of revenge by the hapless women who got forcibly converted. They ensure the next generation turn to match their marauding ancestors, by basically throwing a challenge to prove that the are worth their salt. The recent and neo-converts' progeny is under tremendous strain to prove that they are more arab than arabs. They are set on a path to find peace and spread peace. They can never find peace, until the whole duniya is peaceful.

Could "Hindu Kush" have been just as much "Mussalman kush". After all no Muslim invader/slave trader would have admitted that he was abducting or raping Muslims. Muslims don't kill Muslims you see. The vast majority of abductions from India seem to have gone from the north west of India (currently Pakistan) - regions that were subjugated by Islamic raiders 1000 years ago. All the slavery stories I have read are from 500 years ago or later. With a whole lot of Muslims going to central Asia one can understand why the culture shock may have been easier for abducted pretty girls. The question of Hindu women having to adjust in order to survive is unnecessary if the abducted girl is Muslim.

Just a couple of points shiv ji: First, mussalmans have no problem raping, looting, pillaging other muslim populations. Present case in point - Darfur region of sudan, where semitic arab mussalmans have been pillaging (not much to loot there) and raping (women have set up defensive camps, but it has not helped) their co religionists who are black african muslims. They have killed and/or displaced over a million Darfur residents in a campaign to take their lands. The raping, particularly has got out of hand. US and UN has sent special forces specially to protect the women. In general, the arabs despise the black africans, muslim or not. The pakis have taken to doing the same, as Ombaba no doubt found out first hand. That does not help the pakis with the arabs, however, because they look at the pakis about the same as the blacks. Beedis, malaysians and Indonesians are treated about the same too, perhaps a little worse.

Second, paradoxically the pakis et cetera become even more intense boot lickers of the arabs, arranging hunting parties for them in paki lands, sometime targeting endangered species for their master's hunting pleasure. This paradoxical behavior is even more intense in the early (max in first) generation of converts. The behavior is known as "zeal of the convert", and is distinct from stockholm syndrome. I took a little time to look into behavior of India's other muslim neighbor in the emrald waters of the Indian Ocean - The Maldives. First, I checked out the wiki page on Lakshadweep, the neighborly close point of contact, so to speak. I was surprised by the following:

Maliku Atoll or Minicoy Atoll is the southernmost atoll of the Union Territory of Lakshadweep, India.....Maliku Atoll has been under Indian administrations since mid 16th century.... In December 1976, India and the Maldives signed a maritime boundary treaty whereby Maliku was placed on the Indian side of the boundary.[2]........ on 26 July 1982, Abdulla Hameed, the half-brother of Maldivian president Maumoon Abdul Gayoom and the Minister of Atolls for the Maldivian government, gave a speech in which he declared that Minicoy Island was part of the Maldives.[3]... the Maldives was not intending to make a political claim over the atoll.[3]

The diplomatic tiff seems to have blown over, but India has to be vigilant even with this pip squeek of a gathering of mussalmans.

But a closer look at the Maldives shows its inhabitant's flaming "zeal of the Convert" in its full glory. consider, for example:

Islam is the official religion of The Maldives. The open practice of all other religions is forbidden and such actions are liable to prosecution. Article 2 of the revised constitution says that the republic "is based on the principles of Islam." Article nine says that "a non-Muslim may not become a citizen"; Article ten says that "no law contrary to any principle of Islam can be applied" Article nineteen states that "citizens are free to participate in or carry out any activity that is not expressly prohibited by sharia or by the law."

There is more, and you can see that this island people who were Hindu and Buddhists for milennia, on conversion to islam changed into these religious ideologs. As usual, on conversion to muhmmud's barbaric religion, the zelous converts went on to destroy Buddhist and pre mohumdun archetecture:

The Buddhist Stupa (the most well preserved, the largest and the last of the Buddhist temples that were destroyed) at Kuruhinna in Gan Island (Haddhunmathi Atoll). Contrary to contemporary belief, oral tradition tells of fierce resistance to the temple's destruction by its monks, who went on to stage a pitched battle in its defence

Additional information on Maldivan Religeous Persecution can be found on this wiki page, and links provided therein.

I would like to end this on an up beat, OT historical note, and pay homage to Sri Vallabh Bhai Patel, whose personal intervention got the Lakshadweep islands for India in the nick of time.:

The inhabitants of these islands, remote from the mainland of India, heard the final news of the Partition and Independence of India some days after it occurred on 15 August 1947. As the islands were then British possessions and part of the Madras Presidency, in accordance with the Indian Independence Act 1947, enacted by the British parliament a month before, the islands transferred automatically to the new Union of India. However, considering that they also had a Muslim majority, it seemed possible that the new dominion of Pakistan might seek to lay claim to them. On the orders of Vallabhbhai Patel, the first Home Minister and Deputy Prime Minister of India, known as the Iron Man, a ship of the Royal Indian Navy was sent to the Laccadives (as they were then called) to hoist the Indian national flag and ensure the islands' integration into the new Union of India, aiming to thwart any similar attempt by Pakistan. Hours after the arrival of the Indian ship, vessels of the Royal Pakistan Navy were seen near the islands, but after observing the Indian presence they returned to Karachi.

[darshhan]

Just a couple of points shiv ji: First, mussalmans have no problem raping, looting, pillaging other muslim populations. Present case in point - Darfur region of sudan,

Pasuram ji , No need to go that far.Just ask any Bangladeshi what Pakis did to them in 1971.

[shiv]

When we know very well that mussalmaans are continuously killing or raping fellow mussalmaans and mussalwimmens, how come we sit back and accept the story of "Hindu kush" mountains without protesting the name, allowing rapists to proudly gt away with a lie?

Does it benefit us in any way to stick to this story? Or is it of no consequence?

[Lalmohan]

singha - the spanish crown abolished slavery much before the british, french and dutch did, and way before the americans. spain also lost control of her colonies much earlier, so the populations had a dynamic of their own

[parsuram]

darshhan ji: Of course the pakis smoked the Beedis to their hearts content, then rape, pillage, arson etc was indulged in by the pakis on the hapless intellectually challanged beedis. As many had predicted, the beedis turned hostile to Bhartiys, their benifactors, within a decade, and remain so today. Not only that, the beedi nation of ingrates are now deep into muslim-muslim love with their mother's, sister's, wife's rapists. Many of those beedis are the the ugly flowers of those rape filled months.But because they hold islaam in higher esteem than their own women, they are not a good example of musa=salmans raping, torturing,killing and abducting other muslims as is demonstrated in Darfur. As for the Beedi, IG should have annexed it into India as an autonomous territory of East Bengal, initially retaining defense, foreign affairs, communications and finance with the Indian Union government. This autonomous status, with a massive amount of aid in food, reconstruction and power/communication repair and regeneration would have got the Beedis taking a big sigh of relief. Mujib could have been opted in with finesse. But ... but.. oh well...muddling through was plan b, I guess.

shiv ji:

how come we sit back and accept the story of "Hindu kush" mountains without protesting the name

Yes, I agree that the name is the first that should go. It should not be too difficult. We need agreement from Afghanistan, and the CARs and Iran, maybe. I propose a very very small change which should please all the surrounding countries. It only involves adding an additional "H" in the name, going from Hindu Kush (Hindu Death) to HINDU KHUSH (Hindu Happy!). Maybe the UN can be pettioned to do this little change and remove some unnecessary gloom and depression, promoting an upbeat happy (Khushi) feeling. How about suggesting this to Bharat K when he meets with BR members in the NY/NJ area in the US next week. I am a bit far to attend, or I would do this myself. As it is, I request senior BR members who will meet with Dr. Bharat Karnad to give this name change suggestion from me. If a formal letter is needed, I will gladly write it, just let me know whom to address it to.

[RajeshA]

When we know very well that mussalmaans are continuously killing or raping fellow mussalmaans and mussalwimmens, how come we sit back and accept the story of "Hindu kush" mountains without protesting the name, allowing rapists to proudly gt away with a lie?

Does it benefit us in any way to stick to this story? Or is it of no consequence?

Continuing from earlier post...

Is there any record of this from times when there were many Hindus among those mussalmaans to kill and rape?

The word "Hindukush" does indeed refer to all Subcontinentals, because there was a time when this was the case, when Hindu meant a native of the Indian Subcontinent. But that does not mean that Muslim Subcontinentals were targeted and made to sacrifice themselves at the heights of the Hindukush.

Where does one see any systematic oppression of Muslims by other Muslims from that bygone era?!

I don't see any reason why such a hypothesis needs to be accepted!

It doesn't matter that Pakistanis can show off with a remarkable record of atrocity on the Hindus! We have to keep on telling the Pakistanis that they are in fact Hindus (as the word is understood by the Arabs)! We have to keep on telling them that the joke is on them, because they were the ones who were raped and victimized! We have to keep on telling them that they were the cowards who submitted themselves to outside powers! We have to keep on telling them that what they gave up was much much superior than what they embraced! We have to keep on telling them that they are headed for a train-crash and there is no emergency escape! We have to keep on laughing at their impotency!

And last but not least, we have to take away their women!

However denying the atrocities that the Islamics committed on Hindus is not a valid piskological vector of attack or defense! That is just denialism!

[member_19686]

where semitic arab mussalmans have been pillaging (not much to loot there) and raping (women have set up defensive camps, but it has not helped) their co religionists who are black african muslims.

Most of the "black" victims in Sudan are either Christians or followers of their traditional religion not Muslims.

[shiv]

However denying the atrocities that the Islamics committed on Hindus is not a valid piskological vector of attack or defense! That is just denialism!

Rajeshji - why is it that on this forum a whole lot of people, including yourself, interpret the statement "I don't like you" as "I like your wife"?

I never ever denied that Hindus were killed. Why on earth do you say that I did? All I am saying is that the people who were killed were certainly a mixed bunch of Hindus and Muslims, and that Pakis and their ancestors, Hindus and forced converts were killed in those mountains. I am all admiration for the Islam that Pakis follow. You are welcome to disagree with that.

I have no objection to your disagreeing with me. But misquoting me and then disagreeing with the misquote is surreal.

[shiv]

Where does one see any systematic oppression of Muslims by other Muslims from that bygone era?!

Ah OK. So Muslims don't kill Muslims then. Or they started doing that only recently. That is what you are implying.

[darshhan]

where semitic arab mussalmans have been pillaging (not much to loot there) and raping (women have set up defensive camps, but it has not helped) their co religionists who are black african muslims.

Most of the "black" victims in Sudan are either Christians or followers of their traditional religion not Muslims.

Surasena ji , In darfur area victims are all muslims.Parsuram ji is definitely right.It is southern sudan where Christians along with animists fought decades long civil war which recently culminated in the formation of a new country.Darfur is in western Sudan bordering Chad.

[member_19686]

Surasena ji , In darfur area victims are all muslims.Parsuram ji is definitely right.It is southern sudan where Christians along with animists fought decades long civil war which recently culminated in the formation of a new country.Darfur is in western Sudan bordering Chad.

Thanks for the correction, I was under the impression that in Darfur too it was Christians and animists.

Ironically enough these wannabe Arabs themselves possess substantial amounts of "black" ancestry.

[JwalaMukhi]

Technically, most of them killed at hindu kush were either hindus or formerly hindus. So, the actual story is there is no relief even if one converts to become a mohammedan. It is only temporary. As pious will brand any such converts as not upto par and hence term them "mohajirs", "ahemdiyas", "balochis" or "kafirs". So pious will continue to kill all and any and term them to be non-musalmaans when it suits them.

The pious can have one and only one identity which is being a musalmaan and nothing else. Any secondary identity as being a mohajir, or a balochi will qualify for being wajibull kutl.
We may have to live with another lie if we want to nullify the "hindu kush" lie. The other lie being once one got converted because of the sword he hence forth is entitled to deny his/her history and ancestry. Just as pakis are bent on doing. With that lie then it will be convenient to call it "mohammaden kush". But in reality it was killing and raping of fellows who were either hindus or former hindus. So "hindu kush" lie needs to nullified differently without enabling the denial of ancestry for the pakis.

Consistent reminder of the ancestry to the pakis will make them mad and that will uphold the truth.

[shiv]

So "hindu kush" lie needs to nullified differently without enabling the denial of ancestry for the pakis.

Consistent reminder of the ancestry to the pakis will make them mad and that will uphold the truth.

This I agree with, but OT for this thread is what I believe is necessary. To destroy Pakis fully, Islam's worst practices have to be ridiculed and trashed. It is necessary to expose the cover they use for their existence, Islam.

Islam has hidden behind two veils. The first veil is the one that says it is a religion and that peace comes to those who follow it and that it is legitimate for the followers of a religion to be against unbelievers. This sentiment gels very well with the Christian ethos of the west who understand this sentiment exactly. That is why the actual description of Hindus as "idolators", "polytheists" and "bigots" and murder of Hindus is considered quite OK. Almost "natural and understandable". It is only criticism of Islam that people seem to get worked up about.

The second veil that protects Islam is its own murderous tendency that murders Muslims who rebel, making Muslims pretend that a perfectly murderous faith is peaceful. That is why Pakis will never admit it if their mother was abducted and raped in the name of islam.

It is important in my view to expose Islam completely as a murderous faith that murdered Muslims as much as non Muslims as part of damaging Pakistani identity. If we try to damage Pakistan without touching islam we get what we have now. A half-way house where they shelter behind Islam. Showing proof if possible that "Hindu Kush" was the murder of Hindus and Muslims by Muslims would be one step in exposing and mocking the faith and belief that Pakis hold dear. Sorry. OT. All this was meant for the Paki thread.

[Jarita]

However denying the atrocities that the Islamics committed on Hindus is not a valid piskological vector of attack or defense! That is just denialism!

Rajeshji - why is it that on this forum a whole lot of people, including yourself, interpret the statement "I don't like you" as "I like your wife"?

I never ever denied that Hindus were killed. Why on earth do you say that I did? All I am saying is that the people who were killed were certainly a mixed bunch of Hindus and Muslims, and that Pakis and their ancestors, Hindus and forced converts were killed in those mountains. I am all admiration for the Islam that Pakis follow. You are welcome to disagree with that.

I have no objection to your disagreeing with me. But misquoting me and then disagreeing with the misquote is surreal.

It has to be a continuum. At the start when population of Kaffirs was high they were the targets, as population declined these people turned on themselves - This would have also prompted mass conversions at the beginning to avoid the fate of the indics. This has been observed in history of all such nations - Lebanon, Egypt etc. They target the kaffir/dhimmi as a common enemy.
I don't agree with you that the population was consistently mixed.

[brihaspati]

Alternative Social Structures and Foster Relations in the Hindu Kush: Milk Kinship Allegiance in Former Mountain Kingdoms of Northern Pakistan Author(s): Peter Parkes : Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol. 43, No. 1 (Jan., 2001), pp. 4-36 [Cambridge University Press]

The travails of such families-winning all, or losing all, in inter-qaum rivalries with each Mehtar' succession-would be experienced second-or third- hand by their milk-kin supporters. Whole descent segments bound by corporate fosterage to an unsuccessful pretender might suffer common exile with their lords to remote tribal borderlands. Lowlier supporters of unsuccessful pretenders were frequently sold into slavery abroad, which was a notorious source of foreign exchange for the prestige goods and luxury imports of the Katore Mehtars (Biddulph1880:67f.c;f.Muiller-Stellrecht 1981). Other lowly losers, their fields and livestock seized and redistributed among local rivals, were enserfed as private house slaves(xdnazad)to do them anual labor that noble Adamzadas disdained.

[RajeshA]

However denying the atrocities that the Islamics committed on Hindus is not a valid piskological vector of attack or defense! That is just denialism!

Rajeshji - why is it that on this forum a whole lot of people, including yourself, interpret the statement "I don't like you" as "I like your wife"?

I never ever denied that Hindus were killed. Why on earth do you say that I did? All I am saying is that the people who were killed were certainly a mixed bunch of Hindus and Muslims, and that Pakis and their ancestors, Hindus and forced converts were killed in those mountains. I am all admiration for the Islam that Pakis follow. You are welcome to disagree with that.

I have no objection to your disagreeing with me. But misquoting me and then disagreeing with the misquote is surreal.

shiv saar,

the deniability theme is not in reference to denying whether Dharmics died at the hands of Islamic rulers and invaders and their minions.

For whatever reason, be it as a piskological experiment, a theory or your sincere belief, you're proposing that Islamic power elite did not differentiate between Subcontinental Muslim Converts and Subcontinental Dharmics when it came to killing, raping, abducting, enslaving and selling.

Such a view implies that the Islamic power elite only acted out of economic and political reasons, out of greed, out of sexual drive, as a business model against the Subcontinental Dharmics. Such a view implies that their Islamist values and drivers hardly played any part in their actions. Such a view implies that Islam is innocent of the atrocities. Why? Because it does equal equal. Both sides got similar treatment - the Subcontinental Muslim Converts and the Subcontinental Dharmics were both equally oppressed. I don't think such a view should be encouraged due to understandable reasons.

Secondly you make a statement that Subcontinental Muslim Converts too were systematically oppressed, but you don't offer anything to back that up.

Islam is both submission of the faithful and oppression of the non-believers. Conversion to Islam was always the ticket out of oppression. That is exactly the script according to which the Islamic rule in the Subcontinent played out and the Subcontinental Dharmics were oppressed until they gave in and converted.

You're denying that Islam differentiated between the converts and the Kufr! Such a view distorts the fact, that conversion happened through coercion and that killing, raping, abducting, enslaving and selling were also used as tools to that effect.

[parsuram]

Repost:
shiv ji:

how come we sit back and accept the story of "Hindu kush" mountains without protesting the name

Yes, I agree that the name is the first that should go. It should not be too difficult. We need agreement from Afghanistan, and the CARs and Iran, maybe. I propose a very very small change which should please all the surrounding countries. It only involves adding an additional "H" in the name, going from Hindu Kush (Hindu Death) to HINDU KHUSH (Hindu Happy!). Maybe the UN can be pettioned to do this little change and remove some unnecessary gloom and depression, promoting an upbeat happy (Khushi) feeling. How about suggesting this to Bharat K when he meets with BR members in the NY/NJ area in the US next week. I am a bit far to attend, or I would do this myself. As it is, I request senior BR members who will meet with Dr. Bharat Karnad to give this name change suggestion from me. If a formal letter is needed, I will gladly write it, just let me know whom to address it to.

My fellow BR members:

I would like your comments on this. I understand some would like to keep the name as it is, as a reminder and evidence of what was done to us. My two reasons against that are, that first, it is like some beggar showing off his ugly physical deformities and open wounds. We dont need to do that. We also do not need that to remind our future generations of what was done to us. We need to educate our future generations better than that - get them fired up to even the score and destroy the delusions of the pakis and the beedis who dream of repeating those invasions and conquests to loot the newly acquired wealth of our people. Just keeping the name "Hindu Kush" will not be enough to energize our desendants. Secondly, as shiv Ji says, it was not only the Hindus who perished at those mountains. So I urge all of you to support a name change of those mountains from Hindu Kush to Hindu KHush; Hindu KHushI would also be a good replacement [literal translations are: Hindu Khush is Hindu Happy, Hindu Khushi is Hindu Happiness, and the present name - Hindu Kush is Hindu Death].

[Agnimitra]

My fellow BR members:

I would like your comments on this. I understand some would like to keep the name as it is, as a reminder and evidence of what was done to us. My two reasons against that are, that first, it is like some beggar showing off his ugly physical deformities and open wounds. We dont need to do that. We also do not need that to remind our future generations of what was done to us. We need to educate our future generations better than that - get them fired up to even the score and destroy the delusions of the pakis and the beedis who dream of repeating those invasions and conquests to loot the newly acquired wealth of our people. Just keeping the name "Hindu Kush" will not be enough to energize our desendants. Secondly, as shiv Ji says, it was not only the Hindus who perished at those mountains. So I urge all of you to support a name change of those mountains from Hindu Kush to Hindu KHush; Hindu KHushI would also be a good replacement [literal translations are: Hindu Khush is Hindu Happy, Hindu Khushi is Hindu Happiness, and the present name - Hindu Kush is Hindu Death].

+1
"Hindu Khush" in Farsi would mean "Good Indic", and it has a sanguine, happy air to it. A great suggestion. And it would really show the true spirit of India rising. And it would erase an ugly, low-class, barbaric boast from the world map. We should demand it forcefully, so that these CA/ME nations know that we have not forgotten. But by suggesting such a replacement we also show a forgiving and great spirit, accepting their compliance as partial recompense.

No, we do not need to put up a maudlin affair of wailing and memorials to educate our people and future generations about what was done to us in the past. There are other, more dignified ways to do that. The world will also know that we Indians do not cry in public. And that we have the spirit to move forward boldly and happily. That we have the spiritual ability to forgive, an ability we owe to our living dharma that barbarians could not extinguish. We forgive, though we do not forget.

[shiv]

Such a view implies that the Islamic power elite only acted out of economic and political reasons, out of greed, out of sexual drive, as a business model against the Subcontinental Dharmics. Such a view implies that their Islamist values and drivers hardly played any part in their actions. Such a view implies that Islam is innocent of the atrocities.

Half right. Half wrong

You wrote:
"Such a view implies that the Islamic power elite only acted out of economic and political reasons, out of greed, out of sexual drive,"..correct!

You added
..as a business model against the Subcontinental Dharmics. Such a view implies that their Islamist values and drivers hardly played any part in their actions..nonsense.

Islam means killing and slavery. That killing and slavery are part and parcel of the "Islamist values and drivers". Nothing else. That is the model. Please educate me if Islam means anything more than that to you. As long as you labor under the delusion that there is more to be found - you will believe that I am somehow being insulting to Islam by attributing "human foibles" to murderers while ignoring "Islamic values and drivers" which you somehow believe exist beyond what I have described.

[shiv]

It has to be a continuum. At the start when population of Kaffirs was high they were the targets, as population declined these people turned on themselves -

That is the exact model. To a T.

[shiv]

No, we do not need to put up a maudlin affair of wailing and memorials to educate our people and future generations about what was done to us in the past. There are other, more dignified ways to do that. The world will also know that we Indians do not cry in public. And that we have the spirit to move forward boldly and happily. That we have the spiritual ability to forgive, an ability we owe to our living dharma that barbarians could not extinguish. We forgive, though we do not forget.

And, while doing that, point out that a huge number of slaves and people killed there were kidnapped from the area now called Pakistan, people who had been forcibly converted to Islam some 500 years before the historic records documented by the slave trade. A 1000 year saga of killing. loot and rape starting with the first Islamic invasions and culminating with modern day Islamic Republic Pakistan, documented ethnic cleansing, the Taliban, honor killing, 9-11, Mumbai 26/11 and the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas.

[Prem]

And, while doing that, point out that a huge number of slaves and people killed there were kidnapped from the area now called Pakistan, people who had been forcibly converted to Islam some 500 years before the historic records documented by the slave trade. A 1000 year saga of killing. loot and rape starting with the first Islamic invasions and culminating with modern day Islamic Republic Pakistan, documented ethnic cleansing, the Taliban, honor killing, 9-11, Mumbai 26/11 and the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Islam is a religion of peace and moderation. Lets not conclude its guilt by association. Millions of Indians vouch for its supremacy and pledge loyality to its teachings . Paki shortcomings cant be assigned to IM thus tarnishing their religion and image and destroy the 1000 years of composite culture and social values.

[Y I Patel]

I have authoritative sources who say that "Hindu Kush" is actually a corruption of "Sindhu Ghosh" or The King of Sindhu.

[parsuram]

And, while doing that, point out that a huge number of slaves and people killed there were kidnapped from the area now called Pakistan, people who had been forcibly converted to Islam some 500 years before the historic records documented by the slave trade. A 1000 year saga of killing. loot and rape starting with the first Islamic invasions and culminating with modern day Islamic Republic Pakistan, documented ethnic cleansing, the Taliban, honor killing, 9-11, Mumbai 26/11 and the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Islam is a religion of peace and moderation. Lets not conclude its guilt by association. Millions of Indians vouch for its supremacy and pledge loyality to its teachings . Paki shortcomings cant be assigned to IM thus tarnishing their religion and image and destroy the 1000 years of composite culture and social values.

Whatever they say about islam being a religion of peace etc. may all be well in theory, prem, but all we have seen in practice is a lot of violence, killing, and destruction of our civilization. From the day these miserable "messengers of peace" came to our door step, we have had no peace. Let us be glad that those millions in India who vouch for its supremacy do not try and translate that supremacy into practice, because the day they try to do that is the day those millions will be washed away in rivers of blood - their own blood. Those millions know better than to try to enforce their delusionary "supremacy". Some of them do try, though, notably in Kashmir, and they take the consequences. You would think that they would like to practice their religion of peace in peaceful ways, but no, they do not. So pardon our scepticism if we do not go along with this religion of peace bit of horse hockey. I am sure that as long as we do not believe this stuff, and act only based on our past experiences with these religion of peace peddlers, we will be fine.

There were some who did not take the muslim on muslim loot-rape-plunder evidence that I gave about Darfur as being enough. they asked for more from the past (from where else would it be?). OK. How many here remember Mr. Nadir Shah of Iran. He came to visit India's very own Mughal emperor, and his muslim, hindu, sikh subjects. Now Mr. Shah was very very rude. He took away the possessions of our Emperor, without asking, knowing that all that did not belong to him. He also abducted lots of women; he and his army killed, captured, raped and enslaved vast numbers of mostly muslim women, and also took a huge numbers of Indians back to Iran in shackles as slaves. It is said (by Mr. N. Shah hisself) that the elephant train carrying his loot from Delhi to Iran ran continously for over a year - from Delhi to his capital in Iran. Then there was Mr. Abdali from Kabul, Afghanistan. He also did as Mr. Shah of Iran, with equal treatment of Muslims and others in India. The pakis have not forgotton these lessons in peace, so they behaved extra peacefully in East Bengal, and were kind enough to leave behind all the children they had fathered, which is a truly magnanimous gesture, and I hope that when the opportunity presents itself to our Indian men, they will do likewise among the paki. There has also been, although more recently, Mr. Saddam Hussain, who, as head of peaceful Iraq did to the muslims of Kuwait and Iran all the peaceful things that his muslim breteren had done so in the past to hindus in India. There is more, but I hope that those who were sceptical about muslims treating other muslims with the same peaceful means as they practiced on Hindus, will now be convinced of this general phenomenon. And I particularly hope that Prem took the time to read through this all the way as well.

[shiv]

I have authoritative sources who say that "Hindu Kush" is actually a corruption of "Sindhu Ghosh" or The King of Sindhu.

The translation of Hindu Kush as Hindu killer serves the needs of three groups who found that translation convenient

1. The Islamic triumphalist (now Paki) groups who said "We have an entire mountain range named after the killing of Hindu Kafirs"
2. The Hindu grievance group ("Look how abjectly and pathetically we Hindus were subjugated") who use the name as proof that they really were subjugated. And how!
3. 18th and 19th Western and modern day leftist Indian historians who see that the killing of Hindus was a just and "expected" reward given to an elitist/exclusivist religion by the young and vigorous egalitarian Islam.

It is high time we revisited this crap.

Here is Wiki.

Please click and read yourself if anyone is interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush

Meanings of Hindu Kush

• The word "Koh" or "Kuh" means mountain in many of the local languages which have a Persian origin. The word "Koh-i-Nor" meaning "mountain of light" was used by the largest diamond found in India.[3] According to Nigel Allan, there were at least two meanings for "Hindu Kush" common centuries ago "mountains of India" and "sparkling snows of India" - he notes that the name is clearly applied from a Central Asian perspective.
• Others maintain that the name Hindu Kush is probably a corruption of Hindi-Kash or Hindi-Kesh, the boundary of Hind
• The Persian-English dictionary [6] indicates that the word 'Kush' is derived from the verb Kushtar - to slaughter or carnage. Kush is probably also related to the verb Koshtan, meaning to kill. In Urdu, the word Khud-kushi means act of killing oneself (khud - self, Kushi- act of killing).

[parsuram]

I have authoritative sources who say that "Hindu Kush" is actually a corruption of "Sindhu Ghosh" or The King of Sindhu.

Patel ji: "Hindu" has always been a curruption of "Sindhu" by the Iranis. That is how our religion (and also our people) got its name. And "Hindu" goes back thousands of years to when the Iranis first made contact with our people and were told the name of the river "Sindhu", which they pronounced "Hindu". So there is nothing new about this. But "ghosh" to "Kush" is a new one for me. But there are too many sources who associate the word Kush as in death, with those mountains and Hindus, that it will be difficult to give credibility to "Ghosh" becoming Kush. Besides, as the Sindhu originates at Mansarover lake in Tibet, and comes from the Himalay mountains, it is difficult to associate the river with those mountains called Hindu Kush, or Sindhu Ghosh, as there is no apparant connection of the river with the mountains. But as with any bit of information, I am glad to have it.

[brihaspati]

I have authoritative sources who say that "Hindu Kush" is actually a corruption of "Sindhu Ghosh" or The King of Sindhu.

Please - oh do please quote this "authoritative source" - and if possible the exact wonderful linguistic wizardry by which this wonderful conclusion is arrived at! I am really keen to know this "ghosh"=="king/ruler" derivation.

For all those thinking of name change : those mountains are no longer in Indian jurisdiction. It is not in India's power to change names of landmarks in other "soverign" nations. Informally one can start changing names. But beware of also erasing historical reality by trying to do name changes for pride and happiness.

Before we are actually certain completely beyond doubt that there was little or insignificant slave transport induced atrocities on those ranges - there is no reason to provide a particular theology freedom from its guilt. In few generational iterations all Islamophiles would be joining the chorus that any talk of Islamics using their texts as divine justifications for atrocities and slavery - was all a myth of yeevil yindoos, with generous yehudi inputs.

If "Hindu Kush" itself has finally been acknowledged by "Hindus" as where Hindus became "Khushi" or happy - it only shows that it was the joy that Islam brought to the Hindus when it came in the hands of peaceful preachers like Qasim and Mahmud - and the "Sindhu Hindus" flocked to the banner of Islam with joy. No slavery ever happened.

I guess we must start forgetting - that the word was first and typically used in records that survive - by illustrious Islamic narrators - like Ibn Batuta, and not in records by "Hindus". I guess we can start forgetting that older identifications of the region had a different name : "Paryatra parvata" [why avoid Sanskrit names - because they reek of "Hinduism" and evil Brahmins who are supposed to have monopolized the language? the rest of the people oppressed by them had onlee gibberish completely unrelated to Sanskrit?]. We can even forget that the Arabs themselves in their writings clearly distinguished between "Sindh" and "Hind" and keep on munching out the fantastic efforts of somehow equating "Sindh" with "Hind" and then by that specious connection try to explain away the appellation given to a mountain range far far from the area dubbed "Sindh". Ah the Arabs were confused onlee! We must somehow free them of any guilt.

I have a humble proposal : establish sovereignty over that region first and then change the name. Then of course there would be valid reason to be "khush" and build a memorial there celebrating the occasion. Until that time do not allow the Islamophiles to get away with whitewashing what they did.

[brihaspati]

There is a certain perception that acknowledging an atrocity by another ideological grouping - is about humiliating oneself. In this we can take a leaf out of the evil evil yahudis many of us feel compelled to chastize - for their inhuman "treatment" of peaceful "Palestinians" and "Muslims". The Yahudis wear their trauma on their sleeves - and use it to sharpen the blade against the Muslim neck. Even atrocities or traumas are useful. Forgetting them or allowing them to be hijacked into mythmaking of whitewashing other groups of all responsibilities - is often a self-goal.

[shiv]

I have a humble proposal : establish sovereignty over that region first and then change the name.

Brihaspatiji. Please? You call this a "humble proposal". Difficult to implement propositions are always more humble than the action required to implement them, so in that sense, I guess it is humble. Surely, you should have no objection to even more humble propositions than yours, which may in fact be more easy to achieve? What we do in our mind is always easier than implementing it on the ground.

[brihaspati]

Because - without sovereignty, it will be an empty exercise. It will not be officially included in any global list. It will on the other hand - be hugely taken as a propaganda victory from Islamophiles within India - that "Hindus" have finally acknowledged that there was no trauma from Islamic side. It was all "khushi" onlee. So in the end we will have achieved two great things : no change in the global recognition of the place-name + establishing lack of Islamic guilt and finally an acknowledgment from the "Hindus" themselves.

[shiv]

There is a certain perception that acknowledging an atrocity by another ideological grouping - is about humiliating oneself. In this we can take a leaf out of the evil evil yahudis many of us feel compelled to chastize - for their inhuman "treatment" of peaceful "Palestinians" and "Muslims". The Yahudis wear their trauma on their sleeves - and use it to sharpen the blade against the Muslim neck. Even atrocities or traumas are useful. Forgetting them or allowing them to be hijacked into mythmaking of whitewashing other groups of all responsibilities - is often a self-goal.

Your advice seems to be: "Lament the deaths of Hindus and don't wish them away. Be like the Israelis and take revenge" You know, when it comes to implementation, it is easier to convert to Islam and convert a grievance into a triumph rather than taking the trouble to fight and risk being hurt. The very Hindus who were being subjugated in the area called Pakistan converted and said "Now we are winning" in the ultimate act of mythmaking and whitewashing group responsibilities.

[shiv]

Because - without sovereignty, it will be an empty exercise. It will not be officially included in any global list. It will on the other hand - be hugely taken as a propaganda victory from Islamophiles within India - that "Hindus" have finally acknowledged that there was no trauma from Islamic side. It was all "khushi" onlee. So in the end we will have achieved two great things : no change in the global recognition of the place-name + establishing lack of Islamic guilt and finally an acknowledgment from the "Hindus" themselves.

This is your prediction of what you think the future might hold if a hypothetical change in perception is made today and somehow becomes widespread. The only way to find out whether this prediction will come true is to make that change in perception and understand that it was useless as you predicted.

[Singha]

I guess one of the big issues with Islam is rather than a religion it projects itself as a "way of life" and codifies everything in not just worship but how to treat other people, how to run every aspect of your life, political rule etc.

worse, these rules are not open to re-interpretation and becoming less uptight as times change, anyone who suggests such reforms is automatically a wajb-ul-katl per the holy book.
its a self-sealing fuel tank.

no other religion intrudes so pervasively and powerfully into every aspect of the believers lives.

no other religion treats women so disdainfully and exercises so much official control on them.

so its no surprise the more islamic and purer a country becomes, women fall deeper in status and the whole country gets into a deeper mess.

if not for arab oil wealth and attendant american political cover, the poison was not easy to export and would have poisoned themselves first, but sadly the oil surplus allows them to project wealth far beyond their lands into places like India.

[brihaspati]

Well, I am not too keen on giving absolution to the Islamics. Given that such a name-change will not be recognized globally - the only consequence will be lending wing to Thaparites - who always claim there never was any trauma from Islamics.

[sanjaykumar]

I believe in survey of India maps, Hindu kush is recorded as Hindu raj

[parsuram]

brihaspati ji: I must agree with you on what you say. Any name change must wait until India can, once again, have say in the future of Afghanistan. This should be a worthwhile goal for right minded Indians. I wonder, though, was Krishna's curse to Shakuni and gandhar (for causing the War) for 5000 or 10,000 years of turmoil? If the latter, we have another 5000 years to wait.

[shiv]

Well, I am not too keen on giving absolution to the Islamics. Given that such a name-change will not be recognized globally - the only consequence will be lending wing to Thaparites - who always claim there never was any trauma from Islamics.

Brihaspatiji, I don't suppose a people who fear the triumph of Thaparites from an ineffective change of perception can actually be expected to go all the way and physically occupy the Hindu Kush mountains. Little wonder that an overnight conversion to Islam making one a "Killer of Hindus" from a "Hindu to be killed" would seem an attractive option.

Like I said earlier, I have three sets of people who were among my ancestors
1. One set fled from Islamic atrocities and lived to tell the tale
2. Another set were killed
3. The third set converted to Islam and started saying "I am now the victor. I have defeated the Hindus". A huge proportion of these people live in Pakistan.

There is no absolution being given to Islamics here. It is an attempt to show up Islam as it really is, rather than whitewash it and present it as a faith of fervor, discrimination and equality that discriminated between the faithful and the unbelievers and selectively weeded out the unbelievers while protecting the faithful. Islam is nothing like that. However I respect the right of people who think that is Islam to support that mis-belief.

[Prem]

Its confirm now that Poakanimals are truthful when they claim they did not convert . They are the product of Rape so we can now agree that they are simply Natural Born Muslim and holywood stole the idea when they made copy caled Natural Born killer.