Agnipath (Tour of Duty): News & Discussion

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 17 Jun 2022 18:54

Far-Left outfit AISA is part of engineered protest against Agnipath policy. AISA routinely calls Indian Army an “occupation force” which is “guilty of human rights violations”.
AISA’s participation shows where the impetus for arson and rioting is coming from.
https://twitter.com/KanchanGupta/status ... LACiWQVA2w

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Jun 2022 19:19

ks_sachin wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:
1. For long the soldiers who join the military have used it as en employment guarantee scheme along with caste/class affiliations and perpetrate the colonial martial races theory and this program will act as a decisive blow to that mindset. A changing India needs these "transformative" changes. One becomes a Kshatriya through action and this "lifelong" notion of varna was never a part of our ancient systems. One changes their Karmas and changes their Varna accordingly. Being moribund leads to stagnation of society, fungibility allows one to adapt and thrive.
I agree with most of what you say...

but what is this caste/class affiliation that you talk of? - Can you give me examples of caste/class that plays a role in recruitment and plays a role in the composition of a formation at a basic level - inf bn/ armed bn/ arty regt / eng bn etc...

who in the army believes the martial races theory? Can you give me any proof of that...

If you still believe in the martial races theory and more important believe that the officers believe in that BS then it is you sir who is living in the past.

First, my beliefs are not relevant here. What is relevant are the statutes, intent and practices of the forces. The first two are not an issue as these corrections have been made to a large degree. I am sorry, do not have the time to dig into more detail references (which are there) to make my point but on the "practices" the attached two articles lays the issues.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punja ... ile-225565

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 421631.ece

Agnipath scheme will ensure "merit" gets its rightful due. If it will actually help resolve the regional and other biases, I am not sure. But, like anything else it is a WIP in the right direction. Caste based nomenclatures such as the Mahar Regiment or Rajputana Rifles or the Sikh regiments, even if in large parts integrated are still symbols of a region, language, caste ideas. They reflect colonial ideas of India and not of the integrated union. My ultimate desire would be to see these colonial nomenclatures to go - in time.

ritesh · Post by **ritesh** » 17 Jun 2022 21:04

Was hearing Dr Shiv and Akshaya K on JD. Got pertub by hearing that this may help provide backdoor entry to RoPs into armed forces and take back the country into pre independent British India in terms of non RoP to RoP ratio within 1-2 decades. Can any guru shed some light on this?

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 17 Jun 2022 21:13

ramana wrote:FWIW I don't want any more regional Regiments
Post-Independence IA has kept the old regiments and added battalions to them as needed.

That's your personal opinion.
What works for the Army cannot be jettisoned overnight.
Your opinion cannot be the writ overnight, period!
Kindly do not consider all veterans to senile idiots.
I am not exactly a stranger to the inner workings of the Armed Forces - and if I am reading the signs right - this appears to be a top-down decision, probably pushed in by PMO staff, with absolutely inadequate and pathetic background work.

May I suggest we take a pause and re-think on these so called 'considered' decisions?

I have a record of the Air Chief responding to reporters asking him - what happens to the ongoing process of airmen recruitment - there are candidates who have already given their exams and appeared for selection?
The answer given- I am paraphrasing - It has been decided that all the existing IAF airmen exams - their results will cease to exist. All entries will now be through Agnipath.

It appears rather obvious that this is a top-down decision that is not in consonance with ongoing processes.

ShauryaT wrote:. Caste based nomenclatures such as the Mahar Regiment or Rajputana Rifles or the Sikh regiments, even if in large parts integrated are still symbols of a region, language, caste ideas. They reflect colonial ideas of India and not of the integrated union. My ultimate desire would be to see these colonial nomenclatures to go - in time.

As I said very specifically earlier, your ideas on what should be the correct and idealistic way to go, cannot dictate the way of working of the Indian Army. We should NOT be discussing what should be the ideal state of affairs. Instead what we should discuss is what works the best to get a motivated and bonded force that can withstand the rigours of combat.

To all the armchair analysts, may I ask - have you ever been under enemy fire? Have you seen the Indian Army infantry battalions in action?
Take a break, guys! What was required is a careful scalpel effort to trim the manpower. What has been done appears to be a sldege-hammer effort to tackle the problem.

As as our esteemed forum member Chetak, as well as my colleague Test Pilot Cdr KPS Kumar in his blog earlier stated that, if you feel pension bills are the problem, then try D-E-F-E-A-T?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jun 2022 21:14

It's rumor mongering and speculation by the duo.
Sad.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jun 2022 21:17

Agnipath scheme intake this year is 3%. Rest of 97% are regular recruitment.
And will plateau at 50% max in a few years.
So recruitment by traditional process is still there for 50% of the intake.
And even the 25% retained after 4 years need to qualify for further service.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 17 Jun 2022 21:27

ramana wrote:Agnipath scheme intake this year is 3%. Rest of 97% are regular recruitment.
And will plateau at 50% max in a few years.
So recruitment by traditional process is still there for 50% of the intake.
And even the 25% retained after 4 years need to qualify for further service.

Any official bulletin to back this statement?
That 3% is a percentage of the total present strength of the Armed Forces, not of the total annual intake. Lets not get into jugglery of stats to prove points.
As to your argument about recruitment by traditional processes still continuing- then why have ongoing airmen selection processes been cancelled?
I am not able to find this clear intent in any official press communication, as on date.
If this was so well thought out, then why have the ongoing airmen selection processes been annulled, midway?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 17 Jun 2022 21:57

ShauryaT wrote:
hnair wrote:khan seem to have a five year service plan for westpoint/colo springs/Annapolis cadets.
hnair: The cadets who pass out from West Point and similar institutes of other services, come out with an undergraduate degree and join their forces as Officers. In fact there is another program called ROTC, where students pursue a general degree in colleges/universities paid for by khan with students committing to doing additional training to become officers with a commitment to serve for 4-5 years after graduation as officers.

My understanding is the Agnipath program is for soldiers only and not part of the officer track. IMO: India needs a similar program, as we have a shortfall there.

Having said that, support the Agnipath program and I will state some harsher truths as I see them.

1. For long the soldiers who join the military have used it as en employment guarantee scheme along with caste/class affiliations and perpetrate the colonial martial races theory and this program will act as a decisive blow to that mindset. A changing India needs these "transformative" changes. One becomes a Kshatriya through action and this "lifelong" notion of varna was never a part of our ancient systems. One changes their Karmas and changes their Varna accordingly. Being moribund leads to stagnation of society, fungibility allows one to adapt and thrive.
2. Our defense budgets are personnel costs heavy affecting our firepower capabilities and this seems to be a nice way to add to the capital side of the budget
3. Truth be told, weeding out 75% of the least desirable will make the forces stronger.

Apologies, if I have hurt anyone's feelings but the above is from what serves the interest of security the best. Certainly not a win-win for all. The only losers in this are the folks who wanted permanent employment and they are rioting on the streets. Sorry the world is competitive and GOI has to stop acting as mai baap. Wish they do something similar on the administration side of affairs.

I think there is nothing ignoble about a man seeing a career of soldiering as a path to a good respectable life, with a steady job and some position in society. Part of kshatra-dharma is society guaranteeing respect & a decent material standard of living, in exchange for a life of rigorous discipline and putting that life on the line. What is wrong with a young man from a lower middle class family aspiring to such a life?

I feel that sometimes we civilians have a romantic view of a soldier as a man who sacrifices all for his country & in exchange we express warm & admiring sentiments, sing songs etc. All that is fine, but maybe we fail to take into account the fact that the soldier is a man with a family etc and has material needs and those needs matter also.

Out of dharma-artha-kama-moksha we only want the soldier to have dharma and moksha while ignoring artha and kama.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 17 Jun 2022 22:21

ritesh wrote:Was hearing Dr Shiv and Akshaya K on JD. Got pertub by hearing that this may help provide backdoor entry to RoPs into armed forces and take back the country into pre independent British India in terms of non RoP to RoP ratio within 1-2 decades. Can any guru shed some light on this?

I usually like JD's take and the solid Gyan dump they do on many topics but on this Agnipath topic I felt they were trying to rationalise their foregone conclusion that it's bad, instead of an exploratory discussion on a complex subject.

And our dear friend Shiv IMO was mumbling stuff he seemed to have little clue about. Very poor discussion this one.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Jun 2022 22:28

Hari Nair wrote: As I said very specifically earlier, your ideas on what should be the correct and idealistic way to go, cannot dictate the way of working of the Indian Army. We should NOT be discussing what should be the ideal state of affairs. Instead what we should discuss is what works the best to get a motivated and bonded force that can withstand the rigours of combat.

To all the armchair analysts, may I ask - have you ever been under enemy fire? Have you seen the Indian Army infantry battalions in action?
Take a break, guys! What was required is a careful scalpel effort to trim the manpower. What has been done appears to be a sldege-hammer effort to tackle the problem.

As as our esteemed forum member Chetak, as well as my colleague Test Pilot Cdr KPS Kumar in his blog earlier stated that, if you feel pension bills are the problem, then try D-E-F-E-A-T?

You are correct to ask to set the debate on what works best. But, you seem to be saying status quo ante, as designed by the British is what "works" and hence correct. One does not have to be in the forces to understand the impact of caste/class, region affiliations. They are pervasive in society too. The issue is not of the forces alone. Also, this argument of do not talk of military as one has not stood guard is a fallacy to the idea of civilian oversight of the military. Most organization structural changes are political led and we have two as Ramana garu states, one from the top CDS/ integrated commands and the other from the bottom Agnipath. A focus on making IBG's effective will prepare us well along with the above to serve our interests - when it comes to battle. Command and battlefield integrated, highly skilled with the lethality of arms. IMO.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 17 Jun 2022 22:33

Regarding this, I for one will side with the protesters. This scheme looks very capitalistic in nature. 4 year term is nothing. There are so many young aspirants. I think this scheme is suited for only a certain type of people and is partial to some and not neutrally acceptable. I was watching the news....there were some youth who had such practical outlooks regarding its un-acceptability.

Firstly, in the armed forces, no one is perfect to reap all said benefits proposed by government. Also, government makes promises and does not uphold them....there is so much double speak that the youth feel cheated. Most of them now, will start to seek immigration to other places. I think this BJP government has turned very selfish and capitalistic and it is time for them to go out of power.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Jun 2022 22:34

KLNMurthy wrote:

I think there is nothing ignoble about a man seeing a career of soldiering as a path to a good respectable life, with a steady job and some position in society. Part of kshatra-dharma is society guaranteeing respect & a decent material standard of living, in exchange for a life of rigorous discipline and putting that life on the line. What is wrong with a young man from a lower middle class family aspiring to such a life?

I feel that sometimes we civilians have a romantic view of a soldier as a man who sacrifices all for his country & in exchange we express warm & admiring sentiments, sing songs etc. All that is fine, but maybe we fail to take into account the fact that the soldier is a man with a family etc and has material needs and those needs matter also.

Out of dharma-artha-kama-moksha we only want the soldier to have dharma and moksha while ignoring artha and kama.

Agree, nothing wrong at all in someone seeking soldiering as a path. The state has to accept only what it needs and the ones most able to serve that interest. We do have a labor surplus in that category. Nothing wrong in a forward path that seeks to rationalize and rebalance to our future needs of manpower. Let us truly make the Jawan a respectful profession and well rewarding - within the budgets the state can afford.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 17 Jun 2022 22:37

I have a record of the Air Chief responding to reporters asking him - what happens to the ongoing process of airmen recruitment - there are candidates who have already given their exams and appeared for selection?
The answer given- I am paraphrasing - It has been decided that all the existing IAF airmen exams - their results will cease to exist. All entries will now be through Agnipath.

If ongoing recruitment processes are impacted that's very unfair to those who invested prep time and effort so far. May be we are misunderstanding the 3%, total intake etc due to botched communication.

This govt was very callous on railway recruitment last year and faced lot of unrest. Cant be doing same mistakes again and again.

Hope it's only a comm issue and will be clarified.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 17 Jun 2022 22:38

Hari Nair wrote:
ramana wrote:Agnipath scheme intake this year is 3%. Rest of 97% are regular recruitment.
And will plateau at 50% max in a few years.
So recruitment by traditional process is still there for 50% of the intake.
And even the 25% retained after 4 years need to qualify for further service.
Any official bulletin to back this statement?
That 3% is a percentage of the total present strength of the Armed Forces, not of the total annual intake. Lets not get into jugglery of stats to prove points.
As to your argument about recruitment by traditional processes still continuing- then why have ongoing airmen selection processes been cancelled?
I am not able to find this clear intent in any official press communication, as on date.
If this was so well thought out, then why have the ongoing airmen selection processes been annulled, midway?

Yes exactly instead of tweaking with the recruitment process , should have scalped the " civilian flab " or simply increase defense budget. If a white paper released on efficiency and productivity among the different branches of Govt , Armed forces will outshine every one.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jun 2022 22:53

New vector 'Agniveer won't get pensions'! Then what's the 12 lakh lumpsum after 4 years of service!

saip · Post by **saip** » 17 Jun 2022 23:24

Crazy. How much pension do people get after 4 years of service? Generally it is 0.5% per year of service on the last pay drawn (this is how NY and CA calculate pensions for their employees). So after 4 years they should get 2% of 35,000 (avg). 0r Rs 700 per month. But according to my calculation if they invest the lumpsum of Rs 12 lakhs they get at the end at 7% they would be getting Rs 7000 a month or TEN TIMES more than the pension. Are my calculations wrong?

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 17 Jun 2022 23:30

https://twitter.com/iMac_too/status/1537848162190172160

iMac_too
@iMac_too
Brazen is an understatement if rioting is organised through WA groups. There is no fear

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Jun 2022 02:31

IMO a lot of people are not financially savvy. Therefore, the equivalence between a lumpsum and an annuity is not understood by many. Small modification to allow the employee to take the lump sum as a type of annuity would be useful. Numbers should also be presented in both forms.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2022 02:35

Vera Good suggestion..

LIC can come with a program.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Jun 2022 02:43

Well articulated by the Navy chief! --- correction our CDS!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Jun 2022 02:54

saip wrote:Crazy. How much pension do people get after 4 years of service? Generally it is 0.5% per year of service on the last pay drawn (this is how NY and CA calculate pensions for their employees). So after 4 years they should get 2% of 35,000 (avg). 0r Rs 700 per month. But according to my calculation if they invest the lumpsum of Rs 12 lakhs they get at the end at 7% they would be getting Rs 7000 a month or TEN TIMES more than the pension. Are my calculations wrong?

The most important thing about a pension in India is that it is inflation protected in that it rises substantially over time. The annual payout on the invested lumpsum would not be that high if the payout is to similarly rise over time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2022 03:00

https://wap.business-standard.com/artic ... 583_1.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2022 03:01

How many soldiers get recruited per yar?
How many soldiers leave?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2022 03:09

Gen Rawat studied this proposal and fine tuned it during pandemic.
Out of nearly 780 districts most soldiers come from 180 districts only.
These are wll documented in Wiki and by folks like late Omar Khalidi.
Now a foreign power has to target these 180 districts with bio agents, evangelization.or naxalism and bring down the military.
Rest of the 500 districts are bindas and don't care youth.
Agniveer program addresses this vulnerability too by broad basing the recruitment.
Current pattern of protests are region specific and have political overtones.
Real concerns are and will be addressed as shown by RM and new CDS.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Jun 2022 07:20

So broad basing recruitment what does that mean for an Infantry batallion?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 18 Jun 2022 07:54

ramana wrote:How many soldiers get recruited per yar?
How many soldiers leave?

Currently, it is about 60k per year that are recruited and same amount leave per year. Recruitment was stopped for 2 years, so they are behind by 120k already. This is why 46k through Agniveer for all three services this year is probably not complete story. Army vice chief is on record that by 2032 army will be 50% agniveer (160k recruited/yr by 2032) and 50% experienced soldiers.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 239322.cms

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Jun 2022 08:22

Forwarded to me:

Armed Forces Are Not For Experiments - Listen to Professionals, Scrap 'Tour of Duty' Grave implications
By
LT GENERAL VIJAY OBEROI

"The Armed forces are not like a limited liability Company to be reconstructed from time to time as the money fluctuates. It is not an inanimate thing like a house to be pulled down or enlarged or structurally altered at the caprice of the tenant or owner.
It is a living thing.
If it is bullied it sulks;
If it is unhappy, it pines;
If it is harried it gets feverish;
If it is sufficiently disturbed It will wither and dwindle and almost die,
And when it comes to this last serious condition, It is only revived through lot of effort and lots of money".
-Sir Winston Churchill

The Armed Forces of India are the last bastion of the Nation for safe-guarding the borders - land, sea, air and space; as well as the sovereignty of our nation state.
They have not surfaced today but have evolved over centuries, ensuring that they organise and re-organise; change when the situation demands after due deliberations by experienced individuals using their accumulated wisdom and experience.
While doing so, due note is taken of the international and regional strategic environment; detailed review of our potential adversaries; and studying how major militaries of the world restructure and change.
What emerges is an organisation and structures that can serve the nation in all facets of security. It is this that enables the other sinews of the country to grow in a safe environment.

The Indian Armed Forces have, over the years, met challenges even beyond these and tackled diverse and at times novel challenges that have confronted the nation, both by natural causes or those that are man-made. It includes operations against different types of insurgents on the one hand and coming to the succour of the polity in diverse areas of assistance, including assisting the Indian diaspora in many ways.

The Indian military has always carried out allotted tasks with precision and elan. Such handling of tasks has been possible on account of the military's first-class professionalism, in-depth training, leadership, experience and ethos, on the one hand, and its functioning in an apolitical environment.
This last quality is now being buffeted with head winds created by our governing elites, who have little knowledge of 'matters military', mainly to bolster their individual or group standing in electoral battles.

The lynchpin of our system of government is that we are a secular democracy. It is the military of India that exemplifies both, by being apolitical and this is a great strength of our military. However, one observes with mounting anxiety that lately our apolitical ethos is being dented severely. This needs to stop by actively ensuring that political parties do not use the military for enhancing their own value or tasking them to carry out unnecessary and absurd changes/tasks, which may meet political ends. But are likely to change the character and dilute the strengths of the armed forces that have been nurtured over decades and have paid handsome dividends to the nation.

The on-going "Tour of Duty (TOD)" concept is the latest policy that is sought to be foisted on the armed forces; it will have extremely negative implications for the current high-grade strengths of the armed forces, which are acknowledged by militaries of most great powers and especially by our two main adversaries. Whereas no formal details of the structural and organisational changes in the offing have been announced, leaks and conjectures in the media, as well as professional discussions indicate that what is being contemplated is not only ill-judged to put it mildly, but will be catastrophic for the ethos, elan and professionalism of the armed forces.

Two major issues, both important on their own, are sought to be used or mated to achieve 'an animal that is neither fish nor fowl!' On its own, the concept of inculcating qualities of discipline, love for the country, nationalism, making better citizens, and giving some kind of a job to the youngsters, which the government has failed to provide.

The unstated aim is to improve the electoral prospects of the government in power. The vehicle chosen, viz. the military, reeks of ignorance of the armed forces, how they are organised and how they become professional warriors who deter and fight for victories for the nation. If the TOD scheme, as presently envisaged, is not stopped in its tracks and de-linked from the military, we would be diluting the military's capabilities to levels that are unacceptable for both 'deterrence' and/or 'waging war'.

The second stated aim of reducing funds currently under the head of pensions, is undoubtedly a challenge, but there are many other ways to achieve it. Let statistics guide us.

The strength of the Indian military is about 1.4 million. This includes about 3.75 lakh civilian employees paid out of defence budget. Though they are around 25% of the strength of the defence forces, in terms of pay and allowances, their take home emoluments for both pay and pension, in percentage terms, are higher due to their longer service, Non-Functional Financial Up-gradation (NFFU), better allowances and so on. Nearly 55,000 personnel retire from the defence forces annually. This includes a large number of civilian employees, whose pension is greater than equivalent armed forces personnel. The average annual defence civilian pension is roughly Rs. 5.38 lakhs versus Rs. 1.38 lakhs for military pensioners, reflecting longer career spans for the former.

It would be clear that the direct method of saving funds for the armed forces is to substantially reduce or completely remove the civilian cadre from defence entities. This recommendation has been repeatedly made in the past, lately by the Shekatkar Committee. However, our systems are so hackneyed and selective that all civilian government employees are well protected and only those recommendations that suit the political leaders and the bureaucracy are accepted! Why?

Civil government employees have traditionally been a major 'vote bank' for the ruling dispensation and are well organised. Their unions are powerful and they abhor change, as the present system implying 'less work, more pay and no accountability' suits them admirably. Since Independence, we have seen all types of governments ruling the nation, from over two thirds majority; to coalitions; but none of them have changed the system. Obviously, no political party or grouping wants to take up this challenge.

A connected issue is that freebees, doles and compensations have become the methods of governance of all parties, not to speak of inflaming passions by creating religious rifts in the pluralistic society of our nation, which has always been our civilisational and cultural strengths, much admired throughout the world.

Governments of all hues have compensated such expenditure by starving the military of funds and coming up with imprudent policies whereby the military is weakened.

Governments forget that militaries need to modernise all the time and dependence only on military manpower, however good, is neither good for the military nor the nation.

Unfortunately, most governments have deliberately spent much needed funds on instruments that enhance prestige and optics of the rulers and their loyalists and advisers, but who continue to be less than capable for the tasks they have to perform! QED: call the army!

With a view to reduce pay and pension, the TOD proposal appears to be to enroll recruits for a period of four years only and then discard them with no pension and meagre severance pay. Thereafter, re-recruit a quarter of them for permanent service, but with the proviso that their earlier service of four years will not be counted for purposes of emoluments, seniority, promotion, retirement benefits and so on! Is this fair?
This cycle will thereafter form the method of recruitment. With this kind of proposal, young men and women will first try their luck elsewhere and only the residual numbers will opt for the armed forces.
Do we want this? Let us also look at what unit commanders will do when 25% of the strength will rotate every year, besides those who have to retire on completion of their service or are boarded out due to medical reasons.

Most unit commanders will assign the lowest and simplistic duties to such rookies, and the permanent cadre would have to perform additional duties. Wonder how the rookies will absorb the ethos of the armed forces while doing this level of work!

Commanding Officers will also have to continuously make lists of those that are to be re-recruited. This may result in malpractices like attempting to get on the 'list' containing those selected for retention after four years. By going into more details, one will come up with many more anomalies for unit commanders to solve.

One need not spell out the state of fitness for war of units with increasing numbers of rookies. As no one can predict when fighting operations will commence as also how the rookies will behave in stressful and warlike situations! Much is being made out about the rookies learning new skills, which will enable them to get better jobs in the corporate and other sectors.

It is a pipe dream because there is bound to be a mismatch between what the rookies have to offer and what suits the corporate honchos! Ultimately, with all their expectations unmet, they will at best get similar jobs as at present, i.e., security guards! There is also the danger of these somewhat trained youth, who have tasted order, discipline and fairness while in the army becoming rogues and ready-made foot soldiers for existing and future bad guys. It is understood that the TOD proposal will not apply to technical personnel. Since practically all personnel in the Navy and Air Force are technical personnel, it is the army that will bear the brunt and within the army it will mostly be the infantry, which is the workhorse of the army and the combat arms! With so many negatives the proposal needs to be quietly placed on the back-burner. With the kind of active threats on our borders, it will be stupid to adopt this type of proposal at this juncture.

Defence budgets have been declining since the mid 1980's and are now less than 1.5 % of our GDP. With this level of funding, hardly any modernisation is possible, resulting in the armed forces carrying obsolescent and obsolete arms and equipment.

However, India's militaries are expected to perform miracles, like being a force capable of cyber age warfare, featuring near-future Artificial Intelligence (AI), Drone Swarms and state of the art autonomous fighting platforms. Although Atma-nirbharta is a sound plan, even after five years, hardly any new equipment has been fielded. In any case indigenous arms and equipment manufacture takes years and decades to fructify.

The government needs to be reminded about what the then COAS had stated when the Kargil intrusion had taken place in 1999, to quote: "we will fight with what we have". Over two decades have passed, but the military continues to be in the same state, or perhaps worse.
The government must refrain from taking the easy way out and dropping every task in the lap of the armed forces, ignoring the huge negatives that the armed forces will suffer. Having observed the steady downgrading of the military since Independence, what is amazing is the total unaccountability of our civilian officials, yet they continue to be interposed between the elected executive and the armed forces.
This has given them undue importance, at the cost of the Elected Executive getting unadulterated military advice from professionals.

The result is that half-baked ideas and plans on important military and security issues get accepted.

When adverse effects surface in due course, it is the military that gets the blame and everyone else carries on as usual.

The present TOD Concept will meet the same fate. There are other options available, which will not affect the capability of the military yet achieve the results that the government wants to achieve.

Since it is quite obvious that the Prime Minister wants the youth of India to become better and disciplined citizens of the country and imbibe/learn the professionalism, dedication and single-minded focus on the nation that the armed forces exude, the suggested methods are those where the military will still be the lead instrument in the training and subsequent employment of the youth, but without losing or diluting its capabilities.

Options available include expansion of NCC (Todays news is that the Government wants the meagre army component reduced!

Territorial Army; and using the veterans who have the same ethos and expertise as the serving personnel, but according to the Raisina lore are thought to be 'spent cartridges'! A pilot project, using one or more of the above options can be suggested, provided there is interest. In the end, it is emphatically recommended that the present proposal of three or four years limited service be dropped as it will seriously harm the current capabilities of the Indian Military.

It is unfortunate that the current advisers are taking loyalty to such extremes that deliberations and thoughts on the end state are ignored and the focus is only on the present.

We all will do well if we take time out to reflect on the end state, as the great Chankya had stated: "Before you start some work, always ask yourself three questions - Why am I doing it, What the results might be and Will I be successful. Only when you think deeply and find satisfactory answers to these questions, go ahead." -

Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi

wig · Post by **wig** » 18 Jun 2022 08:35

Agnipath scheme will have to prove its efficacy by Lt Gen Pradeep Bali (Retd)
The fatality rate of our young officers is disproportionately high as they always lead from the front.

extracts

The retired community of the armed forces has expressed its deep angst as they understand the service conditions and requirements of building and nurturing of a life-long commitment for a calling which has no parallel in civil life. However, the brunt of this novel system will have to be borne by the officers who are now in service and among them primarily the young officers up to the rank of sub-unit and unit commanders of combat units. They are the cutting edge of the Army and they are the ones who are expected to deliver under any circumstances. The Navy and Air Force would be impacted by this scheme to a lesser degree as these are platform-centric forces. The technical arms would also not be open to this type of entry. The major fallout will be in the combat arms and that too in the infantry — the queen of battle

The workhorses of the combat arms are its young officers, whether in war or peace. They are the ones who lead troops to victory or death, be it at Rezang La in 1962, at Basantar in 1965, at Garibpur in 1971, in Kargil in 1999 or in the numerous pitched encounters fought with insurgents and terrorists, which are flashed on ticker tapes of TV news channels. The fatality rate of our young officers is disproportionately high as they always lead from the front. In fact, they are the real Agniveers! These sub-unit commanders, whatever their years of service, depend on their troops to see the mission through — in war and in peace — and these are the troops who are there for the long haul, who have lived and breathed together in barracks and bunkers and who know and feel for each other as a band of brothers. A group identity is the pillar of our infantry regiments. This gives a sense of belonging and camaraderie that provides a young lad a sense of security. The ToD system may dilute this basic sense of a lifelong collective identity. The Army will still be expected to deliver with this changed organisational structure. It would be a tough call but given time and resources, in terms of enhanced training and administrative infrastructure, this system may stabilise with the attendant benefits.

Another area which has aroused concern is the pan-India induction pattern. A number of units, even in the Infantry, have an All India All Caste composition and they are none the worse for it. In fact, this has been tried out successfully in new raising units of otherwise single or binary caste regiments.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comme ... acy-404763

dsreedhar · Post by **dsreedhar** » 18 Jun 2022 08:48

I watched a Telugu news channel interviewing the students who are protesting at the Secunderabad railway station. From what i understand is that some of them cleared the physicals and have been waiting to take the written exam. It has already been postponed a few times and now they got a letter the exam is cancelled and Agnipath introduced. They were in rage and the anger is palpable and seemed genuine.
I condemn the burning of the trains. But the students have a point. Generally I am a firm supporter of Modi. It is a good scheme that many desired. But seems this policy was rushed in without much public discussion. Instead of introducing right away from this year, they could have announced now to implement 2-3yrs down. So it would not come as a shocker and quash dreams of students who have invested and preparing last 2 yrs.

I am still not clear whether Agnipath is the new and only recruitment process or additional to existing one. Seems like a replacement of some existing process per the students interview.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jun 2022 09:37

I have a few questions.

Is the military a job security operation?

Why must the government of India discuss everything with everyone?

Why no ire is getting directed towards the local governments for not encouraging industrial development in respective states?

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 18 Jun 2022 09:39

While I support Agnipath, If ongoing recruitment has been cancelled (as H Nair and others posted) that is wrong and indefensible.
One boy awaiting his final results committed suicide, because the scheme is applied under was suddenly scrapped.
There should have been no change in ongoing recruitment and the age should have been relaxed from day 1, because of the 2 year recruitment
freeze. It was callous of the Govt not to have considered that before announcing the scheme.

It would also have been relatively simple to induct Agniveers into the civilian cadre of the forces after their 4 years service.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 18 Jun 2022 09:47

Pratyush wrote:I have a few questions.

Is the military a job security operation?
Why must the government of India discuss everything with everyone?
Why no ire is getting directed towards the local governments for not encouraging industrial development in respective states?

I have recruited a lot of ex servicemen (and give preference to their kids). There is a basic problem that some retired officer critics should
speak up about, instead of resisting any kind of reform. The problem is the average retired soldier is just not suitable for a corporate job and ends up in security. I was determined not to place them in security operations and instead put them in functions like logistics, operations, retail store management etc. It was a struggle and only half of those recruited were able to perform. There is little knowledge of computers, numerical skills,
basic english and a reluctance to pick up new skills.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Jun 2022 09:57

This is a very clear well cordinated attack on Indian Assets, Nobody who wants to defend the nation will do this.

There are a few factors at play here

1) India's stand on fishing and Agriculture forcing the rich countries in WTO to give in
2) Not giving into China for Obor
3) India stance on the Ukraine war
4) India Export ban on food products
5) Rioters being made to pay along ,National Herald type cases
6) India not helping Pak when in times of need.

A perfect recipe for all BIF too do as much damage as possible. This has nothing to do with Agnipath and yesterday being Jumma day- the usual actors would have used this opportunity.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Jun 2022 10:56

Aditya_V wrote:This is a very clear well cordinated attack on Indian Assets, Nobody who wants to defend the nation will do this.

There are a few factors at play here

1) India's stand on fishing and Agriculture forcing the rich countries in WTO to give in
2) Not giving into China for Obor
3) India stance on the Ukraine war
4) India Export ban on food products
5) Rioters being made to pay along ,National Herald type cases
6) India not helping Pak when in times of need.

A perfect recipe for all BIF too do as much damage as possible. This has nothing to do with Agnipath and yesterday being Jumma day- the usual actors would have used this opportunity.

I would not look for factors beyond the most obvious. People in India look at the army for employment and they are thinking that this is damaging employment potential.

We have seen this for railway and other government jobs as well.

Coupled with the tendency of the political class to suck any enterprise dry.

A refusal of the population to change its ways.

It's a recipe for disaster.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jun 2022 11:04

Deans wrote:
Pratyush wrote:I have a few questions.

Is the military a job security operation?
Why must the government of India discuss everything with everyone?
Why no ire is getting directed towards the local governments for not encouraging industrial development in respective states?
I have recruited a lot of ex servicemen (and give preference to their kids). There is a basic problem that some retired officer critics should
speak up about, instead of resisting any kind of reform. The problem is the average retired soldier is just not suitable for a corporate job and ends up in security. I was determined not to place them in security operations and instead put them in functions like logistics, operations, retail store management etc. It was a struggle and only half of those recruited were able to perform. There is little knowledge of computers, numerical skills,
basic english and a reluctance to pick up new skills.

Ditto, but circumstances vary along with the background.

luckily, the opportunities that were available for me to offer the ex-sercice guys were all in the non security field.

The guys who availed these opportunities were competent, noncontroversial, and hardworking. They never let me down.

the only dud who caused me great distress was a mid level officer and one such example was enough for me to steer clear of all such applicants, no matter the approach that was used to try and convince me.

It felt really good to give back to the community.

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 18 Jun 2022 11:08

Hari Nair wrote:
ramana wrote:FWIW I don't want any more regional Regiments
Post-Independence IA has kept the old regiments and added battalions to them as needed.
That's your personal opinion.
What works for the Army cannot be jettisoned overnight.
Your opinion cannot be the writ overnight, period!
......

I have a record of the Air Chief responding to reporters asking him - what happens to the ongoing process of airmen recruitment - there are candidates who have already given their exams and appeared for selection?
The answer given- I am paraphrasing - It has been decided that all the existing IAF airmen exams - their results will cease to exist. All entries will now be through Agnipath.

It appears rather obvious that this is a top-down decision that is not in consonance with ongoing processes.

Hari Nair Saar,
It was also said in these discussions that IAF and Navy seem largely exempt from Agnipath scheme as they have lot of technical stuff in their jobs and the infantry arms are the ones mostly affected. So how and why will the airmen be taken in through Agnipath scheme?

I just want to know the background. there are pros and cons to everything I guess no matter how minutely everything is analysed. Do we have a better option from the services itself. reducing the civilian pensions and moving the armed forces into NPS system for pensions seem to be a workable idea (and this assumes that there might not be any opposition to moving into NPS type scheme). but is that also sustainable in the long run when inflation and absolute numbers in the terms of retirements and salaries that will swell in the next 5-10 years?

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 18 Jun 2022 11:09

The huge number of civilians working for the army is an elephant no one wants to look at. When was the last time the Armed Forces took up a proper Business Process Re-engineering Exercise for all non combat support functions? With all the discipline oriented culture are they diligently still applying British era working practices without any rethink?

There was an audit of all Army lands and assets ordered by Gen Rawat IIRC few years ago because there was no definitive record of them. Didn't hear if anything came out of it. So what are all the lahks of civilian employees doing? Just an example...

I would suspect the Forces are managed with the efficiency and manual intensive processes like a typical PSU - but they have budget constraints and critical missions so need to be far more efficient. If anyone has info on this please do share

I'm seeing on SM that 45% of the pension budget goes to civilians - not sure how authentic that is.

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 18 Jun 2022 11:31

dsreedhar wrote:I watched a Telugu news channel interviewing the students who are protesting at the Secunderabad railway station. From what i understand is that some of them cleared the physicals and have been waiting to take the written exam. It has already been postponed a few times and now they got a letter the exam is cancelled and Agnipath introduced. They were in rage and the anger is palpable and seemed genuine.
I condemn the burning of the trains. But the students have a point. Generally I am a firm supporter of Modi. It is a good scheme that many desired. But seems this policy was rushed in without much public discussion. Instead of introducing right away from this year, they could have announced now to implement 2-3yrs down. So it would not come as a shocker and quash dreams of students who have invested and preparing last 2 yrs.

I am still not clear whether Agnipath is the new and only recruitment process or additional to existing one. Seems like a replacement of some existing process per the students interview.

Dsreedhar Saar,
The Agnipath is going to complement the existing recruitment process and the initial intake for the first year is 46000 or so is being proposed. The regular intake is going to keep increasing till gradually the intake through Agnipath is 50% by 2032 and the remaining 50% still goes on through the traditional way.

Even if the govt introduce this one a year or two down the line there will be disruptions and somebody somewhere will run riot for his "haqq". There are multiple opening for state govt jobs that are not filled for years on end (teachers, police are the most common examples). i haven't seen anyone run riot in telangana or AP or any other state over this. i have been to interviews in private so called "software" jobs where I had interviews and the results never came out and this includes big names not some start ups. Have attended in person interviews with global 500 companies after higher studies and no result even after interview ( whether they stayed the hiring or hired somebody else is also not communicated even after writing emails). i don't think i went on a riot. Such is life, you move on and try to do something.

The govt of the day doesn't owe anybody a govt job . if people are only angling for govt jobs then well good luck under present economic and global circumstances. people have attacked school buses and kids and damaged railways. Aren't they supposed to go and protest in front of army recruitment center or any Central govt center to voice their displeasure if they are truly anguished over notification.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Jun 2022 11:37

Cyrano

Gen Oberoi article mentions this civil component. I posted it a few posts above.
Much like OFB MoD won’t take action there…

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 18 Jun 2022 11:38

People should first try to understand govt scheme when it comes in and try to get more info at the very least. Jumping on to the first public and private transport and trying to burn it for your "perceived right" is one of the most laziest, stupidest and vile things to do. People don't even know what agniveer/agnipath program is and the worst part is they don't seem to care to find out more.

Just shouting and trying to burn railways. if you create anarchy and lawlessness will you get your job notification or posting letter.

the defense minister had a press conference of sorts to tell about this program. if the protestors can organize for 3-4 days and come and create mayhem for few hours it will take less than that to google and find out more about the scheme and then atleast ask/raise your concerns about the shortcomings.