India-US News and Discussion

[ramana]

The key is the late Rajiv Gandhi. What did he know, and what did he agree to re UC culpability?

[abhishek_sharma]

The Afghanistan Vortex

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... tan_vortex

The Afghan vortex has implications for defense planning elsewhere in the world. In a speech he delivered to the Navy League in May, Gates said that the costs of rehabilitating the Army and Marine Corps, combined with the ground force's long term manpower and family support costs, will mean that the Navy will see no increases in its budget. The secretary general of Japan's ruling party recently argued that U.S. naval power is in decline and that Japan needs to adjust its maritime security policy accordingly. When that view spreads throughout Asia, an arms race will be inevitable.

Institutional culture also determines success or failure at coping with strategic surprise. Defense Secretary Robert Gates recently wondered what purpose the Marine Corps will serve in the future. Where is the efficiency in having a second land army?

[Prem Kumar]

Nice, refreshing counterpoint prad. Thanks.

Even if we look at Vivekananda's statement about India breeding spirituality while the West breeds science, he seemed resigned to the duality - i.e. spirituality and science cannot co-exist. I.e. one country cannot be the fountainhead of both. However, we all know (& many of us are) Indians who can straddle both the high-tech/scientific and spiritual world comfortably, without dissonance. In fact, India is in some ways better than even the U.S in this respect - for all its flaws, the Indian schools do not teach "creationism" to its children. By embracing a "quest for knowledge" and even an element of agnosticism & self-doubt, the Hindu philosophy is close to science in spirit.

Though many Hindu religious practices/rituals are dogmatic,the philosophy itself is not.

[Anujan]

Prad

I beg to disagree. India has three options, One is like US, one is like China/Europe and the other is like India. I have three comments to make. One about the US, one about Europe and one about India

1. Society retaining *spirituality* never conflicts with science. On the other hand, society retaining *religion* (of the abrahamic type) only gives rise to irrationality. In the US, the *moral* and *spiritual* ones come in two flavors, religious and non-religious. However you will find that the most inflexibility, discrimination, irrationality and uni-dimensional world view is among the religious. This gives rise to the distinct possibility that politics, governance and administration can be hijacked by lip service to religion. Good examples would be Sarah Palin -- where her lip service to religion is taken to be an evidence of good administrative ability. Cheap points can be scored by asking political candidate's opinion on Gay marriage or euthanasia or abortion or ten commandments. Where giving the "right" answer will get votes, the "wrong" answer will lose votes from people of a particular type. People might think this not that big a deal, however it can have real policy implications. Like Bush cutting funds for stem cell research, and funding abstinence-only education ityadi. Religion forces people to choose sides, do you believe in evolution? If so, you are blasphemer. If not, you are a scientific idiot. If you try to reconcile religion with evolution -- I am going to gleefully laugh at your Ashtavakra posture.

The problem is more abstract than the specific example of evolution -- the problem that most religious types in the US face, is to meld on the one hand their religion and on the other hand the principles of capitalism and militarism that US has been founded upon. This leads to some really funny situations. On the one hand, they err too much to the left -- you get hippie culture, where spirituality and world peace is tied to a total rejection of religion-based morality and hence on drugs and free sex. Or they err too much to the right -- where a conviction that principles that US was founded upon is divine and the resultant American manifest destiny is tied to christian theology to produce Mormons -- whose central premise is that Jesus visited the US and the kingdom of god would be in Minnesota.

Most people are just confused: They think Jesus was a capitalist, owned guns and did not pay taxes. Pause for a moment and think what the confusion is here: The principles, techniques and approaches on which the country was built upon successfully (owning guns to conquer the wild west and beat back the British. Capitalism which has yielded economic prosperity) conflicts with religion (non violence, sharing your wealth equitably). In short, what I am saying is that the religion angle has created a mess.

2. On the other hand, Europe never had a history or culture of *spirituality*. The successive religious movements simply helped in consolidating hierarchy or creating new power center or protecting the old. A grand culmination was the dark ages, the crusades and inquisitions. No wonder that modern europeans put their faith on *governance* more than religion or spirituality and called this transformation as *enlightenment* (which is ridiculous). The moment you put your faith on governance, you become a lawful citizen who expects his government to take care of him. That does not imply you become a *moral* citizen, or a selfless citizen. You get French and Greek arsonists angry at the fact that their government cannot ensure free public transportation. This is nothing but anger at the impotence of a benign "God". So *enlightenment* in the european context is nothing but rejection of an old god, and acceptance of a new god (government) created by them.

3. Indian spirituality on the other hand always relied on 3 premises
(a) What is the nature of the real world? (it is maya, it is not maya, law of karma governs it etc)
(b) What is our capacity to understand the real world and how may we go about doing it? (through meditation, through shruti and smriti, through tarkam, by expelling avidya, by charanagati etc)
(c) Given that we form an understanding of the real world using (a) and (b) above, how should we lead our lives? (in the path of dharma)

Enlightenment in the Indian context is when someone understands these three premises is a fundamental way and progresses on the path. It is not relying on blind textbook policy prescriptions on whether some activities were encouraged or forbidden -- or rejecting all policy prescriptions outright. Ask any Indian about stem cell research, or abortion or gay marriage -- his opinions can be molded by reasonable arguments. If we abandon these three premises of Indian spirituality along with "religion" you will get Europe. If you abandon these three premises and instead embrace religious tenets whole heartedly, you will get Indians outraged at the fact that people suggest that the Sun is not driven by a chariot with seven horses. On the other hand, embracing this quintessentially Indian world view, provides for a good separation of concerns. Collective well being ensured by the government, personal well being and initiative ensured by spirituality.

An interesting point to note is that science concerns itself with (a) and some of (b). True spirituality concerns itself with (a), (b) and (c). Religion has already answered (a), (b) and (c) and there is nothing more to do. In this context, the common complaint that pure scientific progress is not ethical is ridiculous. Ethics is not a branch of science. Science is just a method of answering questions through experimentation, observation and inference. You can use it to cure cancer or you can use it to do mass murder. The critics of science do not appreciate this fact, and propose religion as a "watchdog" for science to keep it ethical -- which simply leads to the conundrum that much battles are fought between religion and science when they disagree on (a) and (b). In short religion never ends up embellishing science with (c) which it seriously lacks.

The proponents of science, implicitly take for granted that (c) follows naturally from (a) and (b) and present science as an alternative to ethics. This is a subtler flaw.

[SwamyG]

Prad:
whoa whoa.....you are mixing religion with political school of thought - Leftism. You are like the Huffington Post that has clubbed Religion and Science into one page. Religion, as practiced by the West, will have a conflict with Science. Having more kids is nothing to do with religion, unless you are talking about some Catholics who do not use contraceptives, America is more of a Protestant nation than a Catholic.

added: India following America in politics will go do dogs. India needs to chart its own course based on Dharma, not outdated Western constructs.

[SwamyG]

Anujan saar: I going to flag your post as deeply offensive....just kidding. It should get into the sooper dhaaga.

[darshan]

America has retained its religious culture while also becoming modern.

Come on, prad, do not make me laugh. I do not see any retaining of native american values except physical containment to reservations.

[sanjaykumar]

Indian spirituality on the other hand always relied on 3 premises
(a) What is the nature of the real world? (it is maya, it is not maya, law of karma governs it etc)
(b) What is our capacity to understand the real world and how may we go about doing it? (through meditation, through shruti and smriti, through tarkam, by expelling avidya, by charanagati etc)
(c) Given that we form an understanding of the real world using (a) and (b) above, how should we lead our lives? (in the path of dharma)


India has no shortage of the dead hand of ritual.

In a marriage ceremony, the mantar-yantar may go on interminably (one marriage ceremony lasted longer than one of my marriages).

All across India, icons may be awoken each morning, washed, dressed, fed and may even be taken out on a ritual journey. Many of the devotees, it may be superfluous to state, do not have the luxury of home, water, clothes or food.

Let us look as unflinchingly at ourselves as we do the westerner.

I myself practice it as a form of yoga.

[Pranav]

So *enlightenment* in the european context is nothing but rejection of an old god, and acceptance of a new god (government) created by them.

Alhamdulillah

[archan]

I am locking this one. Someone please start a new one and guys, keep it free of your gyan on Indian spirituality etc. etc. One din I will have to come down with a few hellphyrrs which often result in collateral damage.