MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 06 Jan 2011 21:24

what about mating brahmos to the existing fighters jaguar/mig ?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Jan 2011 21:45

too big too strong!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jan 2011 21:52

to make a quick escape in a emergency th Jaguar could ignite the brahmos without releasing it . just make sure the nose pointed in general direction of India.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Jan 2011 22:36

Re. Brahmos on an MRCA candidate - you can forget the Gripen for sure, the Rafale has the best chance I think. They were working on a 3000 ltr centerline tank (~ 2400kg), which should be the approx weight of an airlaunched Brahmos. If the Rafale offered to India has uprated engines, this should be manageable.

HOwever, imho the biggest problem for hooking up the B'mos on such a/c is its length, it is just too damned long (8.5mt)!

CM.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Jan 2011 23:21

It is doubtful even a shrink wrapped per available net info that any of these can carry a 2.5 tonner., unless a shrink wrapped brahmos ng comes up with 1.5 ton and say about 5-6 mts having same range and config.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Jan 2011 23:29

Take a look at this image (I don't vouch for its authenticity but found it on the web) - it indicates the ability to carry 3000ltr centerline tank for the Rafale.
http://img27.imageshack.us/i/Rafale-weapon-options.jpg/
CM

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 07 Jan 2011 03:58

Reports are the USN will order another 41 SHs in addition to the 124 ordered earlier this year

This will bring total orders to 694 (670 USN + 24 RAAF)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Jan 2011 04:38

U.S. stops purchases of Marines’ F-35 jet

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The Defense Department said Thursday that it would suspend purchases of the Marine Corps’ F-35 jet fighter, built by Lockheed Martin Corp., and instead buy more Boeing Co.-made F/A-18 aircraft.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2011 06:41

CM saab, sorry could not do that NSFW pic for sometime.. just got to see it. If the conversion factor for aviation fuel is 0.72 then it would not be possible at around 2k kg? and please also include the weight of the empty tank as well.

so bye bye rafale..

.
--

so the navy's wish for JSF can be forgotten.

The Marines’ F-35 STOVL, which stands for short takeoff and vertical landing, is one of three F-35 variants the Pentagon plans to purchase to eventually become the backbone of the military’s fighter fleet. But the plane has been dogged by design and software problems.

The Air Force and Navy variants of the stealthy Lockheed (LMT 73.18, +1.26, +1.75%) fighter are on schedule.

“If we cannot fix this variant during this time frame and get it back on track in terms of performance, cost and schedule, then I believe it should be cancelled,” Gates said.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 07 Jan 2011 08:08

SaiK wrote:so the navy's wish for JSF can be forgotten.

1. If the SH can be used off the Gorshkov, so can the F-35C (which is progressing nicely).
2. The marines still believe the problems with the the F-35B can be overcome, so I wouldn't count it out just yet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2011 08:18

if the USMC abandons it, there would be no other customer. the RN has already abandoned it and will refit their sole carrier with catapult to fly the USN version of JSF iirc. in the end its too much of a challenge - people want great performance but it has to lug around the liftfan and the plane itself is hefty. has to wait development of next generation of engines imo or go with tilting nozzles harrier style and discard the lift fan engine. or since the USMC is only interested in strike missions maybe convert it into a UCAV and save on the entire cockpit.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 07 Jan 2011 08:22

Singha wrote:if the USMC abandons it

But they haven't and aren't about to.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jan 2011 15:29

http://www.ausairpower.net/JSF-Growth-Limits-1.png

jsf growth limits by khan's bros.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 07 Jan 2011 18:09

NRao wrote:U.S. stops purchases of Marines’ F-35 jet

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The Defense Department said Thursday that it would suspend purchases of the Marine Corps’ F-35 jet fighter, built by Lockheed Martin Corp., and instead buy more Boeing Co.-made F/A-18 aircraft.

India had its lost decade as far as defense modernization is concerned. Is America going to have such a similar lost decade?
First F-22 was mothballed to some less than 200 fighters and now this. Next we will hear that USN will shrink from its so called 12 CBG to some 8-9 CBG.

Sorry for this off topic musings.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2011 18:40

pentagon budget has also been cut by some $15b every year for the next 5 yrs. apparently a new amphibious vehicle for the marines has been axed - cost $14b

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/briefs/a ... n%20budget

the way things are moving, my predictions are:
- no more F22 beyond 179...(this is already confirmed)
- JSF purchase combined across usaf/usn/usmc would be around 800 vs the 2000 projected earlier, unit cost will go up

- B1s and B2s will be pensioned off
- B52s will be retained
- vast numbers of C-135, C-5 etc will be pensioned off, only new build C-130J and C17 will kept around
- vast numbers of older F-15 and F-16 are already retiring , only aesa equipped F-15C/E and some block50 F-16 will be kept

overall a much smaller and humbler force.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2011 18:51

Here is an excellent interview with Saraswat in Frontline.

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/stories/2 ... 112600.htm

‘Imports depend on U.S. procedures'
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
Interview with V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister and Director-General, DRDO.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Jan 2011 19:14

SaiK wrote:CM saab, sorry could not do that NSFW pic for sometime.. just got to see it. If the conversion factor for aviation fuel is 0.72 then it would not be possible at around 2k kg? and please also include the weight of the empty tank as well.

so bye bye rafale.. .

What exactly are you saying here? AFAIK, jet fuel weighs around 7lbs per gal, or about 7 X 800 gal (3000 lts) = 5600 lbs of fuel OR 2500+kg, which is ~ air launched Brahmos.

The problem that i see is the length of the missile.

CM.

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Jan 2011 12:34

There are news popping up stating the Boeing submitting proposal to India on a possible integration of GE414 enhanced engine with a 20% additional thrust.
I read a similar story some time back but these new articles are dated 10th Jan, 2011.

So maybe some movement in that direction from Boeing. I can't get the exact links due to Firewall restrictions.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2654096/posts

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 11 Jan 2011 07:03

Eurofighter ahead in IAF deal : Tribune Exclusive

Again Eurofighter seems to be leading according to Tribune Now

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2011 07:19

Yeah Boeing would deliver with 20% more thrust, and 80% political pressure even after sale.. It can never be used against pakis/PERIOD.

CM saab, I thought the weights were so close to be considered to be carried on Rafale. never mind.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Jan 2011 07:21

venku_Raj wrote:Eurofighter ahead in IAF deal : Tribune Exclusive

Again Eurofighter seems to be leading according to Tribune Now

Same old same old... The report adds nothing new to the common 'buzz' that seems to have become common knowledge that the EF is on top followed by the Rafale.

The only interesting addition to the rumor list was that IAF wants the Gripen (Or so he says)

Incidentally, the IAF ‘top guns’ - after trials at home and abroad - were said to be in favour of Swedish Saab’s Gripen fighters.

As has been discussed numerous times that unfortunately the Gripen lacks the political clout of the US and EU...

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 11 Jan 2011 07:26

I would be very happy if EF wins....

but lets wait and see what actually happens.... these sort of rumors are hardly worth dwelling on.

IAF originally wanted to simply get more M 2000's, so i guess a single engined fighter would have appealed more to them. Moreover, as Gripen was always an underdog, it's good performance might have made much better impression than say EF (which was expected to perform well).

I hope they should make a decision soon (regardless of who wins) so that we can get some new jets.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jan 2011 13:04

Amazing,B-1s and B-2s are being pensioned off while the venerable B-52s will be retained!!! Suits me fine as I keep on advocating retaining the TU-142 bears for the IN,just as the Russians are doign-keeping their Bears in service too,while retiring the newer TU-22 supersonic Backfires.

Sohann might very well get his wish,the IAF buying more Flankers,Jaguars,etc.,as if a decision is going to be made only by 2012 for the MMRCA,then the aircraft will only start arriving by 2015/16 at the earliest."More of the same" has been our theme on BR for many and it looks like the US is following that example.The real revolution is being made in the AESA radars and associated weaponry and NCW commns. kits for manned aircraft.Unmanned aircraft development is on a huge boom.There appear to be no budget cuts there,as every branch of service wants more UAVs/UCAVs to be acquired.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 11 Jan 2011 14:44

Grippen may lack the clout of US/Russia/EU, but it has one big advantage Sweden.

Sweden is one of the world leaders in Submarine weapons and guns. Even the much maligned bofors gun, is one of the best artillery pieces that Indian Army posses.

Grippen can be the icing on the cake. It offers us the ability to carry out deep and fruitful linkage with the Swedish defense industry, one of the worlds finest. And the best part, it will come without the severe restrictions of F16/FA18 or the uncertainty of the European consortium or the price escalations of the Russians.

Please do not eliminate Grippen just yet.

manish.rastogi · Post by **manish.rastogi** » 11 Jan 2011 15:07

can anyone tell the current or possible production rates of the fighters in MMRCA??.....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Jan 2011 15:20

manish.rastogi wrote:can anyone tell the current or possible production rates of the fighters in MMRCA??.....

IIRC Rafale has 7-8. Once it had gone up to 12.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 11 Jan 2011 15:25

Christopher Sidor wrote:Grippen may lack the clout of US/Russia/EU, but it has one big advantage Sweden.

Sweden is one of the world leaders in Submarine weapons and guns. Even the much maligned bofors gun, is one of the best artillery pieces that Indian Army posses.

Grippen can be the icing on the cake. It offers us the ability to carry out deep and fruitful linkage with the Swedish defense industry, one of the worlds finest. And the best part, it will come without the severe restrictions of F16/FA18 or the uncertainty of the European consortium or the price escalations of the Russians.

Please do not eliminate Grippen just yet.

Engine could be the achilles heal.

manish.rastogi · Post by **manish.rastogi** » 11 Jan 2011 16:22

I think i somewhere read in this thread only that one of the fighter has some 30-40 per year production rate!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jan 2011 16:27

likely the F16 and F15 at the height of cold war in mid 1980s were produced at that rate.

ofcourse the soviet union produced plenty of Mig-21/23/27 at similar or higher rates...nothing could beat a country that went through *300* nuclear subs alone in its short and eventful lifespan and built a stockpile of 15,000 tanks and 100,000 SAMs...truly the disciple of war as a full time activity.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Jan 2011 16:33

With the first official flight of J-20 reported today, it is likely to see service around the same time MMRCA supplies will start. This will be atleast 4 years before FGFA appears in IAF colours. With a stealth fighter at our doorstep I see no possibility of anything but Eurofighter Typoon or Rafale being chosen.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Jan 2011 16:44

manish.rastogi wrote:I think i somewhere read in this thread only that one of the fighter has some 30-40 per year production rate!!!

F-16 and F-18 would obviously have the highest production rates by far. Production rate is proportional to demand. Higher production rate means establishing more supply lines and training new people. If you do all for producing a few fighters, all that will go to waste after a few years.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 11 Jan 2011 16:45

JTull wrote:With the first official flight of J-20 reported today, it is likely to see service around the same time MMRCA supplies will start. This will be atleast 4 years before FGFA appears in IAF colours. With a stealth fighter at our doorstep I see no possibility of anything but Eurofighter Typoon or Rafale being chosen.

Why would J-20 "see service around the same time MMRCA supplies will start."? You know that would be 2013 right?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jan 2011 17:08

Pl follow the China military thread and read the various foreign analysts' views.The J-20 will require several years of intense testing if it is to see service before 2020 according to most.China's chief weakness is in engine development as it has only modified versions of Russian engines illegally without Russian consent.With its vaulting ambitions and frantic pace of military evelopment,there will be few countries willing to provide it with contemporary high-tech eqpt. for fear of its deceitful track record.However,what is indeed of deep concern is that there are now three fighter programmes on in China simultaneously,which will allow China eventually to have both quality and quantity as it pleases.Chinese superiority in numbers in the air will slowly also increase qualitatively and when seen in the light of its allied massive land based missile power ,part of its huge militayr machine is bound to alarm the smaller states of Asia and is of "concern" to even the US.

Amitabh · Post by **Amitabh** » 11 Jan 2011 17:13

Flightglobal: Israel blocks AESA radar export to India (due US pressure)

Washington's position is driven by an assumption that exporting IAI's advanced radar would undermine the sale of US-made systems on the international stage, sources say.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jan 2011 18:00

so the US thinks India will buy APG79 radars for Tejas mk2? I think thats a wrong assumption.

the koreans and japanese if they cannot develop their own, will always buy US...israel never had a chance there.

other than these three I dont see any other markets for the EL2052.

the real reason has got to be deeper...like hurting our domestic pgm timelines...preventing any TOT..pressure tactic to land the MMRCA deal etc.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 11 Jan 2011 18:13

U.S must be barred from the MRCA. Gripen is also out. Let's the final fight be between Eurofighter, Rafale and Mig-35's. The Russian's will again delay things. So better the final fight be between Eurofighter and Rafale. Now the GOI must be realizing the mistake of purchases from the U.S No more deals with the U.S.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Jan 2011 18:23

Gaur wrote:
JTull wrote:With the first official flight of J-20 reported today, it is likely to see service around the same time MMRCA supplies will start. This will be atleast 4 years before FGFA appears in IAF colours. With a stealth fighter at our doorstep I see no possibility of anything but Eurofighter Typoon or Rafale being chosen.
Why would J-20 "see service around the same time MMRCA supplies will start."? You know that would be 2013 right?

Don't shoot the messenger! I don't have any more information than you do, but we need not be naive about Chinese capabilities and determination. Let's reflect upon the fact that till the first pictures emerged couple of weeks ago, no one even had a clue about the stealth program being so close to flying the first prototype. (Philip, are these the same foreign experts who had "so far taken the view that a Chinese stealth fighter was several years away from being flight-ready, and that building the fighter’s hull was all China had accomplished"? - some new bits).

Given their track-record in developing other two fighters, squadron service is achieved much sooner than other development programs in India, Europe or US. They're always prepared to make compromises to get the product into service quicker while they work on refinements. The first-cut product may not be comparable to F-22 of PAK-FA/FGFA but I can bet it will be able to give MKM/MKI a run for their money.

Another point that I intended to make was that, while we dether on MMRCA (4G-4.5G) or LCA (3.5-4G, not my words but ACM's), we already have a 5G capable plane flying in the neighbourhood. No wonder ACM was not in a good mood at LCA-Tejas IOC ceremony.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Jan 2011 18:37

Washington really seems to want to take Indian money and have a hold on its ****s ! Despite all those high profile deals look whats happening.They are *not* satisfied by the hercules,globemaster,arty etc etc deals.... this is getting more interesting.Probably they want to make India very pliable to its requirements.They dont really walk their talk do they ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Jan 2011 18:43

And any AESA from US will come without source codes and plenty of backdoor options to degrade it, thats for sure ! India is in a way where the chinese are with respect to the US., but least they have the guts to steal and copy.Since india is a 'soft' state they have to eat is offered.Washington is certain enough to block any flow high tech that are likely to be game changers in any war scenario.India can be sure of that one.

koti · Post by **koti** » 11 Jan 2011 18:51

uddu wrote:U.S must be barred from the MRCA. Gripen is also out. Let's the final fight be between Eurofighter, Rafale and Mig-35's. The Russian's will again delay things. So better the final fight be between Eurofighter and Rafale. Now the GOI must be realizing the mistake of purchases from the U.S No more deals with the U.S.

We have already entered the Chakravyuha my friend.
It is not so easy to get out successfully.

Regarding Elta, I think we can partner with Phazatron for an improvized/customized or re engineered Zhuk.
They should be more then happy to partner with India to keep the funds and interest flowing and maintain a stand against the Irbis.