Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

[Muppalla]

SwamyG:

I strongly disagree with the notion that EJ money can not be countered with Hindu money.

Indics do not need money. They just need an awakening. The EJ's penetrate by providing the very basic needs which the Indian state has not been able to fulfill. There can be various reasons for that which are OT. However, there can be dharmic oriented NGOs which can provide the same services which completely block the EJs out. Indian industrialists and middle-classs have enough money to make that happen. What is missing is the vision and the motivation. Why dont we have a national level alternative to the Red Cross?

[OT]
There is lot of literature of EJs this and EJs that. Statistics of their achievements, Jashua project etc. What is needed are articles related "Inside EJ; Corruption inside EJs; life of a day of an EJ; what is a church and weekly activities of an EJ church;" Abstract, highlevel articles will always give only a small portion or jest of the matter. I do not think information related to EJs is really breached from the high level stuff.

Compare EJ information to that of Islamism or Jihad stuff. No where near. EJ stuff is mostly based on symbolism and propaganda of EJs and compare that with Islamism where you can put a face to leaders and their roles, activites etc. There is no intel to really know about EJ stuff.

At this stage it will not be money or human resources that is the problem to counter EJs. It is simply something against lot of unknowns. [/OT]

[Muppalla]

Aah, but for that buffoon Gujral, we'd still have active assets & capability inside Pak to up the score at will, gayle-storm type only....tch, tch.

Gujral is just 11 month wonder. We are making too much of his regime. Our assests are still in tact. There is a super chanikyaness too.

Dilli has assets on the ground who watch everything.

But this MMS-ji, I lament, doesn't want to even go down the line where he would want to upset his neighbours.
Indian agencies do only intel gathering, analysis of that intel. And they share that intel widely these days.

Well MMS can be that way while many others could be making the difference.

MMS being that way is the greatest plausible deniability. Just imagine, MMS trying to reach to Pakis and everytime he tried, something catastrophic happens in Pak and putting his extended hand to almost uselessness. Currently he talking to Gilani, Zardari is almost useless and it is more and more becoming difficult to identify whom to talk as Pak has no structure and no one know who has the ability to call the shots in that country. In that situation if India tried to identify Pak with someone, others will ensure that fellow is useless via some attack.

Regarding India agents, RAW does not need to have any agents there. It may have outsourced to several tribes of Afghanistan as they are more-motivated than Indians and they easily merge into various sections of Pakistan. Current RAW's hand in Pak may be best in 50 years and we may be getting far better live coverage. RAW could even call few good shots there as opposed to before 911.

[shyamd]

^^ Very similar to what has hit my ears.

Gaganji, we don't want to get our hands dirty, because simply we don't need to. They are itching for a fight against India to unite. We don't want to give ppl an excuse. There are others in the region doing the dirtywork for us. Why bother?

[Lalmohan]

not dirty work, the cleansing of pakistan is allah's work

[JE Menon]

That's why she is doing it, using his most faithful du jour.

[NikhilB]

.....
I don't see a savior of India 150 years hence. We are losing. We'll be out populated and out bred by the cult of Islamism. Folks here are not realizing the massively rapid change of demographics in India. We are not witnessing Pakistan's collapse yet. Pakistan and it's ideology has everything going in it's favor till now. Our dealing with Islam has no solution but a direct confrontation with the doctrine of Dar Ul Harb and Dar ul Islam. Cults must be redefined to fit excluvist doctrine. Some Abrahmic religions will enter the definition of cult then and not religion. It's easier tackling the subversiveness of Islamist ideology then. Else there is no solution.
....

Today after another IED I finally gathered courage and watched that ranger shooting video. sh!t, what kind of society is this? However, this cold blooded murder has brought another thought of how today's IED is playing in abdul's mind? Pakis are dead inside. I on the other hand feel emotions and compare pakis with the same hoping they must be rotting in these daily emotional attyachar. But these animals have no value for lives. Death has become a daily affair. IEDs are not going to drown pakistan. It has become a part of their culture, civilization whatever you call. What most can they cost? few dozens out of 200 millions here n there. On the other hand frequent grand scale economic, geographic disasters will help to bring this land on its knees to a large extend.

Pakis have become immune to violence and bloodshed. After few months, the incidents like rangers shooting will not invoke any reactions in paki society - we can even see now that there are many supporters of this killing without any sensitivity to dying men. If they treat their own people like this, imagine how they will be treating kaffirs esp Indians who they have taught to hate from birth. This is what paki society has become.

Can we see any pattern ? or is it history ?

When babur first invaded Sindhu, that time basically he was thrown out from his Samkarkand kingdom, and there was so much anarchy that he was just running away hiding from samkarkand rulers. This is when he eyed on India. Now imagine what these india hating paki abduls do when there is complete anarchy in pakiland. It is not if but when this is going to happen. TSPA will never have guts to fight an open war with India and they don't care for their abduls. All abduls in pakiland are soon going to acquire some form of weapon just to survive their daily life.

We must plan to stop these barbaric animals from entering even an inch towards India. Let them rot in pakilan - no import of any pakis, no humantarian reasons, no WKK appeasing. This will not be an oepn war, and India should be ready to play its cards well even if it's branded as heartless by world powers. Let China, KSA and US take these pakis in their land and suffer.

This situation will not be of an open war - we won't be able to use Prithvi and Sukhoi. It's just plain humantarian crisis. We have long border with pakis, and this time they won't come in thousands rather in lakhs becasue every abdul basically would want to come to India.

let us build some deep khandars, put 50 feet electric fencing, put cocorahces, put mines, and just kill every dman abdul who is trying to cross border. We cannot put our man on every inch of border - so let us have automatic robots, CCTV ciruits to kill anyone automatically trying to come here. No mercy this time. We have been bit lenient to those from NW few centuries ago and we have been suffering from those mistakes since then...Not this time please.

[anupmisra]

Harbans, now that's India. I have relatives ranging from Rajasthan, Punjab, UP, Bihar, Bengal, Kashmir, Orissa, Karnataka, Maharashtra and MP. My wife is from Gujarat. Besides Brahmins, we have Kshatriyas, Jains, and Muslims in our family. No pakis.

No Pakis? Pure racism.

What can I say? I am a racist Brahmin.

[Guddu]

They are diverting some funds to the civilians to create space for themselves. i think West is advising them to share the funds so as to reduce the heat.

So now the US will fund more of the paki govt and get some brownie points, while Kiyani will expropriate more from the paki govt funds. Its a zero sum game. It only changes, if outside assistance is topped by unkil.

[shyamd]

^^ The aim is to keep the current leadership of TSPA in power. TSPA know the people are angry at them, so to ease the pain, they are diverting resources to the people, so that people forget and see that things are getting better under the TSPA leadership. Basic strategy 101.

Doubt people will realise that Unkil/KSA foots the bill.

[Cosmo_R]

SwamyG:


Indics do not need money. They just need an awakening.

And that is exactly what the UPA types do not want and this is the reason for seeing the RSS under every bed; Hazare, Ramdev, stopping Sushma Swaraj from raising the flag in Kashmir on R-Day etc.

An Indic awakening would destroy the historic 'alliance' of psecs, commies and Muslims that has underpinned INC strategy. They learned well from the Brits: Divide and Rule.

[Guddu]

This one is very good, but since it is in Hindi, I am posting a translation for people who understand english only.

Thanks, I posted it on an ameerkhan forum.

[SSridhar]

A blast heard in Islamabad

[abhijitm]

^^ retired hurt only. no wickets.

[anupmisra]

^^ retired hurt only. no wickets.

IED blast in Islamabad injures three

“It seems to be an old explosive device buried long ago under the bush and garbage,” senior police official Bani Amin told reporters. ..... It could be an old hand grenade or a cracker,” he added.

Gives a literal twist to the meaning of the phrase "You reap what you sow". See the irony?

[Suppiah]

Old IED buried long ago (perhaps targetting musy?) goes off..damp squib...

[Hiten]

the 'Ahmediyas are Waji-bull-Cutlet' pamphlet

http://twitpic.com/59xkkb

[Gagan]

This one is very good, but since it is in Hindi, I am posting a translation for people who understand english only.

Thanks, I posted it on an ameerkhan forum.

Eek! Its copyrighted, and mine is a translation onlee.

Err, mind sharing that forum address? Would love to hear what the mango amreekans have to say about Af-Pak

[rajanb]

It seems as Friday is truly a day of rest and prayer. Open season is from Saturday to Thursday onlee.

[Gagan]

No no this is the YYY axis.
The work on Mon-Fri.
Sat Sun is week end only.

Bure landers work on Sat - Thu.

If IED is today, it is pure people, if it is Friday, it is YYY.
If its Mon-Thu, well it could be anyone.

[Dilbu]

TGIF, they say.

[Shrinivasan]

SSridhar ji the blog was great read. Just a small nitpick why use the (pbuh) cr@p. You could have used repectful prophet word but pbuh seems to be overkill unless there is some chanakiyan thought that I missed.

using PBUH improves google hits... many people looking for info search for PBUH rather tahn "prophet muhamad" or its gazzilion variants of spelling. my 0.000002 paisa

[Gerard]

Regarding article posted by Philip...

Our soldiers are taught to shout Allah-o-Akbar when mocking an attack. In real life, they are ambushed by enemies who shout Allah-o-Akbar even louder. Can we blame them if they dither in their response?

The more pious obviously shout louder.

[Shrinivasan]

consider this event, at midnight of Saturday (sunday is holiday in pukistan) in a Mall (open for business at that time?)..I mean why will anyone pick this time and place? For every incident we see in Islamabad/Karachi/Lawhore..we will see like 10 in Peshawar and Quetta (conveniently).

I wondering about the timing, 2 theories came to my mind...
1) send a message to the fun loving youth to avoid these heretic behavior, "Go home, grow a beard and memorize the Quran".
2) send a message to businesses not paying protection money, "you are very vulnerable, so pay up".

The fact that no one claimed responsibilities makes me think it is an inside job.

[Brad Goodman]

SSridhar ji the blog was great read. Just a small nitpick why use the (pbuh) cr@p. You could have used repectful prophet word but pbuh seems to be overkill unless there is some chanakiyan thought that I missed.

using PBUH improves google hits... many people looking for info search for PBUH rather tahn "prophet muhamad" or its gazzilion variants of spelling. my 0.000002 paisa

Depends what audience you want to target. Average Joe does not know what pbuh is. He gives rats musharraf to what you call em. Average Abdul gets worked up if you dont write pbuh (post wahabization of poak lands) any ways if this article was inetended to catch eye balls of abduls then you have better chance of preaching to walls and convincing them than the brain washed abduls ( funny only organ in their anatomy that is ever washed is brains ) they know for a fact that khilafat was golden era when nothing ever went wrong. Isnt that what Mahadi hamid told them in that big series of khilafat e rashida

[A_Gupta]

Matthew Yglesias ponders, at thinkprogress.org
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/ ... iable-isi/

At any rate, the thing I’ve never understood about our policy in Pakistan is this. Right now, the Pakistani government gets aid money to fight violent Islamists. But obviously some share of the funds goes to support other activities. It’s siphoned off for corruption, or it builds military strength vis-à-vis India, whatever. And if the violent militant groups go away, then so does the aid, right? After all, if Pakistan weren’t a hotbed of dangerous extremists there’d be no reason for the US Congress to directly subsidize Pakistani government corruption or a Pakistani military standoff with India. So if you’re a corrupt Pakistani official, you don’t really want to solve the violent Islamist problem and if you’re a patriotic and responsible Pakistani official concerned about your country’s security relative to India you don’t really want to solve the violent Islamist problem. So what’s our answer to this supposed to be?

[pgbhat]

^ Pakistan is the only country where "patriotism" and "corruption" feed of each other and go hand in hand.

[Altair]

^^ +1

[ramana]

^ Pakistan is the only country where "patriotism" and "corruption" feed of each other and go hand in hand.

Go back to the rashidun Caliphs.Twenty percent take as opposed to Zaradari's 10 percent was allowed. Othman was the most egregious at personal aggrandizement and nepotism. He set the tone for later guys.

[Pranay]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/world ... ?ref=world

Leon E. Panetta, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, confronted Pakistani intelligence officials face to face with what the United States believes is evidence of collusion between Pakistani security officials and militants staging attacks in Afghanistan, an American counterterrorism official said Saturday.

Times Topic: PakistanDuring an unannounced trip to Pakistan’s capital on Friday, Mr. Panetta met with the leader of the Pakistani intelligence service, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, and showed him satellite photographs and other evidence of what the C.I.A. believes to be two facilities for the manufacture of bombs used by militants based in Pakistan against American forces in Afghanistan, the official said. The bomb facilities were in the northwestern districts of North and South Waziristan, both havens for militants.

The official said Mr. Panetta was compelled to confront General Pasha after the C.I.A. alerted the Pakistanis about the existence of the bomb-making facilities several weeks ago and asked them to raid the locations. But when the Pakistani Army showed up, the militants were gone, making the C.I.A. suspicious that the militants had warning from someone on the Pakistani side.

“The targets seem to have been tipped off,” the American official said, adding, “There are indications that some senior Pakistani officials aren’t happy about it, and neither are we, of course.”

A senior Pakistani official said Saturday that at first there was no reason for Pakistan to be suspicious that the bomb makers had disappeared. “Extremist groups often move locations,” the official said. But, the official said, “now that the U.S. side has drawn our attention to the possibility of the Taliban being tipped off between the day the intelligence was shared and the day of our military action, we will work on finding out what happened.”

[ManuT]

Aah, but for that buffoon Gujral, we'd still have active assets & capability inside Pak to up the score at will, gayle-storm type only....tch, tch.

Gujral is just 11 month wonder. We are making too much of his regime. Our assests are still in tact. There is a super chanikyaness too.

^^ Very similar to what has hit my ears.

Gaganji, we don't want to get our hands dirty, because simply we don't need to. They are itching for a fight against India to unite. We don't want to give ppl an excuse. There are others in the region doing the dirtywork for us. Why bother?

----
Sirs
Just for reference :

Lashkar recruitment may have dipped in recent years, as may have its ability to attract motivated cadre. Kasab says he joined the LeT out of economic need rather than religious fervour. But with the flow of recruits still on, India may have to go after the source in Pakistan.

Short of potentially escalatory military options like air and ground strikes against the camps, India has very limited options against the terror outfit. Experts like Ajai Sahni of the Centre for Conflict Studies call for secret action against the LeT camps and leadership inside Pakistan. “Short of covert capabilities and targeted covert options, nothing else will work against them,” says Sahni.

A capability that I.K. Gujral dismantled as prime minister over a decade ago will take over a year to rebuild. {Never forget }

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 22426.html

Sirs
Can I say there is a difference between intel and the foreign office, even though one might use other for cover under certain conditions.

[archan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/world ... ?ref=world

But, the official said, “now that the U.S. side has drawn our attention to the possibility of the Taliban being tipped off between the day the intelligence was shared and the day of our military action, we will work on finding out what happened.”

... but won't they require more funds to "work on finding out what happened"?

[shyamd]

ManuT, its not a good idea to be talking about capability. Let's just say, capability depends on your objectives.
What we have now is sufficient for the present objectives.

[krisna]

Pakistan army will face suicide attacks in North Waziristan

Army will face deadly suicide attacks if it undertakes operations in North Waziristan, according to Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (Fazl) chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman, a media report said.

Glory to the soosai bummers.
More to IED mubaraks. wanna score centuries. long due.

[Brad Goodman]

Of ‘perceptual biases’

Can Pakistan and the present strategic thinking of the military establishment co-exist? A fearful thought it is, to be sure. And it now has come to the surface of the national consciousness, though an open discussion on this issue is yet to begin in earnest. There is little evidence that the military leaders are willing or even able to reflect on the price that this unfortunate country has paid for their policies and their performance.

An unprecedented criticism of the military and its intelligence agencies has obviously been prompted by the events of May. First, there was the Abbottabad operation that revealed that Osama bin Laden was hiding for five years in a garrison town. Then, the terrorist attack on the navy’s Mehran base in Karachi provided a sharper edge to questions that the unchecked American attack on Osama’s hideout had raised.

Finally, the death of investigative journalist Saleem Shahzad, after he was kidnapped from Islamabad and severely tortured, has put the all-powerful and dreaded Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in the dock, in spite of an unusual refutation of the charge on behalf of the agency. In fact, the Saleem Shahzad affair has enlarged the area of concern to include the whole gamut of law and order and security in the country.

It is against this background that the nation has been assailed by the soul-destroying evidence of how an unarmed young man was cold-bloodedly murdered by a team of Rangers in a public place in Karachi. Indeed, it is this killing, in the wake of all the other injuries we have suffered that has pushed the people to the edge of a nervous breakdown. I see it as a component of the overall drift that relates to our security paradigm and to the role of the military in Pakistan’s national affairs.

One can understand why there were references to the loss of East Pakistan, the situation in Balochistan, the waywardness of the military and paramilitary forces in the outrage that was expressed over the Karachi killing in the National Assembly and in television talk shows. It was heartbreaking to see Javed Hashmi in tears on live television.

We know that the Rangers would never have conceded the truth of how it happened if the television footage were not available. The videographer who bravely shot the scene deserves high honour, though he is said to have gone underground after receiving death threats. It seemed that the paramilitary personnel were playing a part they had already rehearsed.

Of course, it was first reported and confirmed by a Rangers spokesman that the young man was a dacoit and was shot when he fired on the Rangers. They held on to their version for some hours, until the clip began to be shown on almost all the news channels. Some glimpse of the dehumanising show of barbarity were mercifully blurred but occasionally, you saw it all and it will stay in your mind as a reminder of what men in uniform are capable of doing when they assume absolute power and act with impunity.

Incidentally, the young man was ‘executed’ by the Rangers in Karachi’s Clifton area, not far from the fortified Bilawal House, late in the afternoon of Wednesday. It was on Thursday that General Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani presided over a Corps Commanders Conference held in the GHQ in Rawalpindi. They must have talked about the Karachi killing because it was all over the media. But did they discuss the significance of that killing in the context of what is happening to Pakistan, the country they have to defend?

This brings me back to what I have posed at the outset. Do our military leaders – and the army is forever in the forefront – understand the consequences of their national security perceptions and their Zia-inspired patronage of religious militancy? Can they also see how their own institution has evolved in this process? I often wonder if our corps commanders read history and deliberate on current affairs.

Be that as it may, a lengthy press release issued by the ISPR has sought to respond to the recent surge in criticism of the military and has expectedly said that efforts to create divisions between institutions were not in the national interest. They do want to be the arbiters of what is national interest. This press release has touched upon many different issues, such as relations with the United States, disbursement of the US aid, fight against terrorism, and a resolve to support the democratic system. But I will refer only to the resentment that is expressed over criticism of the military in the public sphere.

We are told that the commanders were given a comprehensive briefing on internal security, terrorism, role of the media, society and military-level relationship with the US. Yes, they talked about the role of the media and society. The commanders noted that “some quarters, because of their perceptual biases, were trying to run down the armed forces and army in particular”.

Ah, perceptual biases? Who has actually held on to such biases in defiance of a reality that is manifesting itself with disaster consequences on the ground? Where and who, for instance, is the enemy? It was Oscar Wilde who had observed that a man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies. It would be the same for a nation. Unfortunately, our ruling ideas, shaped largely in the military’s mind, have led us astray in our choice of enemies. What we have reaped is this toxic nexus between jihadists and the rogue elements in the armed forces.

Apparently, our armed forces do not simply possess the required intellectual and educational resources to be able to contemplate the crisis of Pakistan and to identify what they need to do in this critical situation. The ISPR statement contains a veiled warning against “those quarters ..... with perceptual biases” that are criticising the army. But this criticism is no longer restricted to some liberal commentators. Leading the attack, so to say, are the leaders of PML-Nawaz, a major political party with its roots in the Punjab. So, is a paradigm shift possible?

To conclude, here are two sentences from Anatol Lieven’s book: “Pakistan: A Hard Country”, a very recent publication that portrays an appreciation of our resilience as a country. Read this: “The Pakistani military is in some ways an admirable institution, but it suffers from one tragic feature which has been with it from the beginning, which has defined its whole character and world view, which has done terrible damage to Pakistan and which could in some circumstances destroy Pakistan and its armed forces altogether. This is the military’s obsession with India in general and Kashmir in particular”.

[g.sarkar]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/CIA-chief ... qus_thread
"CIA chief leaves Pak without deal on resetting ties with ISI
CIA chief Leon Panetta has left Pakistan without reaching a deal on resetting the troubled relationship with ISI during meetings with the country's top military leaders. Panetta, who arrived on an unscheduled visit on Friday evening, did not meet anyone other than army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayaniand ISI head Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha, a media report said here today
He met the two leaders at Army House in Rawalpindi over dinner and discussed what was described by the Inter-Services Public Relations as a "framework for future intelligence sharing."
The CIA chief's departure on Saturday morning without routine calls on President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani was seen by observers as a sign of the stalemate in his discussions with the military leadership, the Dawn newspaper reported.
According to the daily's sources, Panetta was "surprised by the rigidity shown by the military, which went to the extent of even declining an offer by Washington of security assistance."
Government officials insisted that unlike in the past, Panetta was not scheduled to meet anyone else during his visit, the report said....
Panetta reportedly tried to convince the Pakistanis to allow some critical CIA operations to continue after the agency was asked to cut down its footprint.
He asked for some CIA operatives to be given visas to enable them to enter Pakistan and work independently, the report said.
Kayani and Pasha are reported to have insisted on joint operations and intelligence sharing but no independent operations......."
Aya Ram and gaya Ram. They have paid money and did not get the stuff that they wanted, now what? They can pay more, throwing good money after the bad, or they can go the Yugo way. But that will need more resolve. I guess we at BRF are praying for the latter. Jai ho and all that.
Gautam

[harbans]

Go back to the rashidun Caliphs.Twenty percent take as opposed to Zaradari's 10 percent was allowed. Othman was the most egregious at personal aggrandizement and nepotism. He set the tone for later guys.

Ramana ji, i think we have to go back to PBUH himself. Plunder from foraging campaigns against the unbeliever: 20% went to pbuh himself.

8: 1 They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(Such) spoils are at the disposal of Allah and the apostle: so fear Allah and keep straight the relations between yourselves: obey Allah and His apostle if ye do believe." And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war) a fifth share is assigned to Allah and to the apostle and to near relatives orphans the needy and the wayfarer if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the day of testing the day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

The Chapters (8th) name Al Anfak in the K is "Sharing booty, Spoils of War".

[KLNMurthy]

Studies have been going on for the last 15 years. We have been successful in getting the calibre of Rajiv Malhotra to write the book - Breaking India. This is only the first in the series. Mass awareness has to be done on this issue.

Unfortunately he does not get lot of support; some say it is because of his "scorch earth policy" when it comes to other Hindus groups.

OT but would you mind elaborating on a more relevant thread, perhaps the Distorted History one?

thanks

[JE Menon]

>>Panetta was "surprised by the rigidity shown by the military

Covert strategic defiance policy (a la Mirza Aslam Beg) is slowly shifting to overt practice.

[pgbhat]

>>Panetta was "surprised by the rigidity shown by the military

Covert strategic defiance policy (a la Mirza Aslam Beg) is slowly shifting to overt practice.

Well they seriously believe unkil is completely out of options, they might as well be upfront about it.

[RajeshA]

>>Panetta was "surprised by the rigidity shown by the military

Covert strategic defiance policy (a la Mirza Aslam Beg) is slowly shifting to overt practice.

Well they seriously believe unkil is completely out of options, they might as well be upfront about it.

Possibly sending the last emissaries to give the Packees their last chance!