Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

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RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Karan M wrote:RajeshA,

When you face these guys anyplace on the net, 1-2 are British - rest will all be hangers on. The fencesitters are other westerners. Just calling all of them names is a tiring exercise. How much will you flame?

At the end of the day, winning arguements takes a convincing story - whether it be our own achievements (growth momentum - economically, socially, militarily - all need to go hand in hand) PLUS - the details of what the British actually did. The problem is, if we focus only on what the British did, the Brit/western civilization uber alles types will come back with stories of India today.

Which comes back to the claims of what Haresh pointed out about their usual claims of civilization etc.

Of course I agree that its not an easy thing because India will take time to develop. Perhaps far too much time, if it continues with the absolutely corrupt kleptocracy ruling right now, with its politics of patronage. Which is why the struggle against the "Economists" or "Telegraphs" or the "Guardian"s or the "Daily Mails" and their eager readers, will continue to be a struggle.

The Brits wont give up their place easily either. I find it amazing how they transitioned from losing power, to being the dominant influence peddler by hanging onto the coattails of the US & then continuing to shape American views. I suspect that almost 90% of the caste-cows-curry-fakir-daleets image of India, is actually shaped by British narratives of India, which were then adopted by the left & the evangelicals for their own purposes, and given wide play.
Karam M ji,

I think it is something typically Indian to see to it that we restore our dignity, and try to correct fabricated lies and propaganda directed at us, without hurting other people, including those who are leading the charge against us, and declare themselves as judges sitting in judgment over us! I can understand this!

But I would like to offer a different way to resolve our "Brit problem". In Hindi, we call it, "na rahega baans, na bajegi bansuri".

If the Scots get their independence in 2014, Great Britain, United Kingdom would be dead. So if there is no Britain, then the country which ruled over us for two centuries would be gone as well. In order to be nostalgic about the British Raj, and the intrinsic superiority of the British over the savages of India, there has to be some Britain, but when it is gone, who would claim its legacy. Great Britain should become history! So I hope that the Indian community in Britain gives maximum support to Scottish Independence.

With a smaller England, the Indian community would have bigger influence. The smaller England becomes, the more power it loses, the more England would be dependent on its relations with other major countries to boost its decreasing prestige, and thus the more it would depend on its relations to India through the Indian community.

The main thing is UK should lose its permanent UNSC seat and any ability to influence global events or to even have the ability to credibly support American war initiatives. It should simply become another Netherlands. In such an environment, where its traditional establishment cannot give Britain any leverage on the world stage, it would have to depend on the affluent and influential Indian community to lead it. Once that happens, nobody in Britain would ever again speak ill of India.

If you wish to win the argument against the British nuts, pull out the whole carpet from underneath them. Support Scottish Independence!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

rajesh, i dont think the scots will separate from the union. the two countries are very intertwined even if they say they are not. british irrelevance will be driven by the US (just as the empires decline was driven and facilitated by the rise of the American empire). once the US decides that it wants to break from the A-A-A model (America - Australia - Anglia) at the core of its security policy, and allocates a SC seat to "Europe" then it is done.

on a separate note - most of you haven't picked up on the changes already underway in britan and about britain. much of what you are complaining about is either already gone or is starting to recede in the rear view mirror. the question is, are you putting on the brakes so you can keep seeing it, or are you pressing the accelerator to have it fade out of view?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Lalmohan wrote:rajesh, i dont think the scots will separate from the union. the two countries are very intertwined even if they say they are not. british irrelevance will be driven by the US (just as the empires decline was driven and facilitated by the rise of the American empire). once the US decides that it wants to break from the A-A-A model (America - Australia - Anglia) at the core of its security policy, and allocates a SC seat to "Europe" then it is done.

on a separate note - most of you haven't picked up on the changes already underway in britan and about britain. much of what you are complaining about is either already gone or is starting to recede in the rear view mirror. the question is, are you putting on the brakes so you can keep seeing it, or are you pressing the accelerator to have it fade out of view?
Exactly - partly the brakes, and not highlighting certain issues so that others don't get too aware of them and add their own opposition to processes that need to be let to work out. Lots of us are still under a strange lovey gooey feeling about a Brit society/culture that never really existed and which we think is worth preserving. Think of the kinds of Meghnad Desai.

On other issues, I personally would like to press the accelerator. There are things we "appreciate" or pedest-ialize that are no longer relevant, and even the British themselves no longer care a fib about them. When they themselves have have rejected or left their own stuff behind on the wayside as rejectable, why should we have fond hangovers about leftover rejecta?

However, the Scottish indpendence issue is not so trivial. At the moment an equal balance of power. If the economy doesnt improve, there will be much stronger demand for independence. The anti-indepndence sector is equal in power but not in numbers - and their power comes from the financial tie-ups with the looters and liers in the "city". The Scott real estate sector however did not entirely catch on the boom infection since there was not much capital in that subregional economy anyway since the 80's. So unlike say Ireland, where a huge host of negative equity folks are constantly kept in line by holding the dagger of de-eurofication and consequent inflation of mortgage debt - Scots do not have such a huge imperative to lick the "city" boots.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

scotland does not really have a viable stand alone economy to give people the level of prosperity they are used to
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Lalmohan ji,

I too don't know whether the Scots will vote for independence, but it is indeed in the interest of India. In India there is this legacy that Republic of India is a successor state to the British Raj, the rule by Great Britain over India. We need to get out of successor state image, and I think, it would do us a ton of good that if the system in India is not willing to move, we move the whole premise of successor state, by doing away with Great Britain itself. If one puts Great Britain into history, one puts the whole successor state business to history as well. It is as if all the agreements with Britain with respect to our boundaries, the Radcliffe Line, various laws, etc. are being upheld because the instance with whom we made those agreements is still around.

So some may realize this and some may not, but I believe this national psyche of sticking to agreements is still there. So if we are not predisposed to breaking agreements, then better to away with the agreement partner.

When Karam M ji and others speak of resisting demeaning British propaganda towards India in various web fora, what is partly the psychology at work here - it is the Indian way of acknowledging that the British transferred power to the natives and natives are somehow obliged to satisfy the original rulers that we too can govern responsibly, that we are in some way living up to the responsibility they entrusted us with when they gave us independence. That is an indirect way of acknowledging that those dorks had a right to rule over us in the first place. Well whether we acknowledge it or not, they did rule over us, so some of us would think of living up to the trust they placed in us when they voluntarily and magnanimously awarded us independence.

So one way to get rid of the ghost for good is to do away with our past "masters" entirely, and the coming referendum can be helpful.

It really is up to the Indians in UK, how well they can understand this or appreciate this and thus to support the YES with votes and wallets.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Lalmohan wrote:scotland does not really have a viable stand alone economy to give people the level of prosperity they are used to
There is still Oil & Gas from the North Sea that Scotland can use to pay for its outlays. I heard that Scotland is a net contributor to the national exchequer if one considers the revenues from Energy.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

oil will run out fairly soon, north sea has been in decline for quite some time
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Lalmohan wrote:oil will run out fairly soon, north sea has been in decline for quite some time
Well UK and its financial centers too have been in decline, also less manufacturing. In fact new North Sea fields have been allocated recently for further exploration and drilling. There is still some left.

Let's not forget that Scotland really has a small population to support, just over 5 million, with an abundance of land and sea around, good for fishing and energy extraction, also a great potential for tourism.

Here is what Wikipedia writes:
Edinburgh is the financial services centre of Scotland and the sixth largest financial centre in Europe in terms of funds under management, behind London, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich and Amsterdam,[145] with many large finance firms based there, including: Lloyds Banking Group (owners of the Halifax Bank of Scotland); the Government owned Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Life.

In 2005, total Scottish exports (excluding intra-UK trade) were provisionally estimated to be £17.5 billion, of which 70% (£12.2 billion) were attributable to manufacturing. Scotland's primary exports include whiskey, electronics and financial services. The United States, Netherlands, Germany, France and Spain constitute the country's major export markets. Scotland's Gross Domestic Product (GDP), including oil and gas produced in Scottish waters, was estimated at £137.5 billion for the calendar year 2009. If Scotland became independent, it would hold 90% of the UK's current oil and gas reserves if they were split geographically using a median line from the English-Scottish border. If the reserves were to be split by population, that figure would be reduced to 9%.

Tourism is widely recognised as a key contributor to the Scottish economy. A briefing published in 2002 by the Scottish Parliament Information Centre, (SPICe), for the Scottish Parliament's Enterprise and Life Long Learning Committee, stated that tourism accounted for up to 5% of GDP and 7.5% of employment.

As of May 2009[dated info] the unemployment rate in Scotland stood at 6.6%— slightly lower than the UK average and lower than that of the majority of EU countries. The Scottish Government's most recent figures (for 2009/10) suggest that Scotland's finances are in a healthier state than for the UK as a whole, with Scotland contributing 9.6% of UK taxes but receiving 9.3% of public expenditure.
Scotland should become independent!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vishvak »

The Indians and Russian scientists are much more "first world" then some Britishers who peddle filth. By that I mean for example people involved in top of the line nuclear plants such as one in Kudankulam. This is in terms of progress by the British themselves.

However I am not sure if Indians or Russians with distinct cultures of own would define 'progress' or 'race to an exclusive top position in one or two races' in exact same manner if at all. One needs to see a lot of things in perspective perhaps.

2 pence (0.02 £) only. Can't find pound sign on keyboard by the way.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Oct 25, 2012
By Andrew Smith
Reading Between the Polls; Building a Majority For Scottish Independence: Huffington Post
YouGov's polling makes for more hopeful reading.

They recently found that 45% of people would vote YES if doing so made them materially better off, with only 35% saying NO. This is nothing new; the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey 2011 found that 65% would vote YES if it made them £500 a year better off. What is clear is that the vote will be as much about the money in people's pockets as it is about identity or democracy. In that sense support for both independence and the union should be seen as pragmatic rather than dogmatic. However, the most significant finding of the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey was that 46% would vote YES if their standard of living was unchanged, with only 32% voting NO.

This final point is crucial to the debate, it suggest that there are as many people looking for independence to be stabilising as there are for it to be transformative. It means that in theory if the YES campaign can convince these people that they won't be financially damaged by independence then they will be more likely to vote support it than not. These findings point to the main issue being a lack of confidence in the finances of sovereignty, this is backed up by further polling that shows a majority of people feel independence would leave them worse off. This is supported anecdotally by debates with my friends and family. For example, my parents, who I consider to be a good barometer for the electorate, say their biggest concerns are about pensions and Scotland's relationships with the BoE and Europe. Their inference is that if there are clear answers to these big questions then they will vote YES. Unfortunately the campaign has been dealt a number of self inflicted blows, such as the controversy over the EU legal advice that never was.

There are still two years to go and of course polls need to be taken with a pinch of salt, but the key point is that the campaign needs to interact with the electorate it has rather than the one it wants. In order to win they need to listen to people's concerns, no matter how trivial they seem, and focus as much on 'bread and butter' issues as grand narratives. In addition, the economic case for independence has to be articulated as something more than just an anti Tory vote. The Tories may be unpopular in Scotland, but I have trouble believing that people will vote for constitutional change on a party political basis. This is not least because by 2014 the coalition may be coming to its end. Furthermore, a number of Labour, Lib Dem and Tory voters who support independence, and a number of SNP and Green voters won't. One significant development is the formation of groups like Women for Independence, National Collective and Labour for Independence, all of which aim to engage with those who don't neccesarily identify with the vision of the SNP.

The YES case has been enhanced by the publication of Stephen Maxwell's excellent book 'Arguments for Independence' which provides a strong political and intellectual vision for the campaign. Maxwell writes with clarity and argues with a passionate and pragmatic voice which is all too rare in the current debate. The only drawback of books like this is that they rarely get the readership they deserve, yet this one has entered its third print run in as many months. What Maxwell's book does is help to raise the debate to a higher level.

So far Yes Scotland has rightfully focused on building local campaign groups across the country. A Mori poll in June found that 70% feel 'shut out from the debate', and it's easy to see why. People want to hear from campaigns that listens to their concerns and responds to them, and this has to come from the grassroots as well as politicians. The media/ social media operation will be important, but the strength of the campaign will come from its dynamism and breadth. Ultimately referendums are about numbers, and every vote is equally valuable, no matter where it comes from. On one hand the YES campaign needs to win over more people in two years than they have in the last 30 combined. However, another way of looking at it is that if everyone who supports independence converts at least one friend then they'll win by a landslide.
Image

Publication Date: 2012
Arguing for Independence: Evidence, Risk and the Wicked Issues
Author: Stephen Maxwell
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by member_23677 »

Lalmohan wrote:oil will run out fairly soon, north sea has been in decline for quite some time
Scotland's abilities are highly underestimated and will remain so till they are ruled by that old hag...
Most of the naysayers for scottish independence are britards themselves... Some nice points for independence were covered in this blogpost :
http://darklochnagar.blogspot.ca/2012/0 ... ld-be.html
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Prem »

P.Bhagat wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:oil will run out fairly soon, north sea has been in decline for quite some time
Scotland's abilities are highly underestimated and will remain so till they are ruled by that old hag...
If they face economic troubles , they can be our outpost there which can be usd for the benefits of both. :wink:
Last edited by Prem on 28 Oct 2012 10:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by member_23677 »

Jhujar wrote:
P.Bhagat wrote: Scotland's abilities are highly underestimated and will remain so till they are ruled by that old hag...
If they face economic troubles , they can be our outpost there whiochy can be usd for the benefits of both. :wink:
Of course :lol: :rotfl: :mrgreen:
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

P.Bhagat wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:oil will run out fairly soon, north sea has been in decline for quite some time
Scotland's abilities are highly underestimated and will remain so till they are ruled by that old hag...
Most of the naysayers for scottish independence are britards themselves... Some nice points for independence were covered in this blogpost :
http://darklochnagar.blogspot.ca/2012/0 ... ld-be.html
Posting in full

10 REASONS WHY SCOTLAND SHOULD BE INDEPENDENT
  1. Scotland would officially be one of the world's richest countries - ranked 6th in the OECD compared to the UK's 16th place. We have 24billion barrels of oil remaining in the North Sea, according to industry body Oil and Gas UK. That's £1.5trillion in today's prices - half as much in value as has been taken out.
  2. We also have around 25 per cent of Europe's potential offshore wind and tidal energy - and a tenth of Europe's wave power. An extra 45 per cent of renewable energy was generated in Scotland last year, according to the UK Department of Energy. It's more than we need and can be exported for cash.
  3. Other countries want to invest here. The recent Ernst & Young UK Attractiveness Survey highlighted Scotland's leading position in the UK for job creation from international investment. With independence, we can make the country even more attractive to these employers.
  4. Independence will allow us to keep services such as the NHS and the welfare state. In England they are being privatised and cut. Benefits are being taken from the needy and the Scottish Parliament can't stop that under present powers.
  5. Scotland has five of the top 200 universities in the world. We also punch well above our weight in the number of research papers they produce. It means our historic reputation as a well educated nation is flourishing. We give our universities one of the best packages of support in Europe, with no fees for students from Scotland. With independence we can do even more.
  6. We'll have more money in our pockets. If we got back what we sent south in tax, official figures show every Scot would have £510 more a year. The only tax the Scottish Government controls just now is council tax, and it's frozen under the SNP. Imagine if we controlled fuel duty, national insurance, VAT and income tax.
  7. Our government would be more streamlined. Scotland, like Denmark, New Zealand, Norway and Finland, is a goldilocks country - not too big and not too small. The UK wastes money on bloated institutions bogged down by bureaucracy - look at HMRC, the tax authority. It's gone from one calamity to another. The rich get away with evasion while the rest are overcharged.
  8. Mobiles would work and we'd all get high-speed broadband. Telecommunications are controlled in London. Westminster auctions licences to phone companies but only demands 90 per cent coverage of the UK. This means "notspots" in much of Scotland. Broadband is patchy too, and it doesn't help that Scotland's capital budget has been cut by a third by the Tories.
  9. Our culture would get a boost. We'd have control over broadcasting and more high-quality programmes could be made here. Our news would no longer look hand-knitted compared with well funded UK offerings. We could export high-quality drama and our young bands would have a platform on the radio.
  10. Imagine the goodwill. Scotland is held in high regard around the world - by those who know us. But being buried in brand Britain means sometimes we don't get to shine as we should. Independence would generate global interest. We would be the new kid on the block - young, modern, and happening.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Singha »

I have heard a lot of high level engg talent in UK is actually Scot. if they can get some of these facilities to be based in scotland, and get some skilled workers to cover the gap, dont see why scotland cannot be a high tech economy also and not just be a resources and tourism play.

london has played the game of keeping a lot of things to itself being bartania's only megacity.

I think they could be as rich and stable a country as denmark for sure.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lilo »

Singha wrote: I have heard a lot of high level engg talent in UK is actually Scot. if they can get some of these facilities to be based in scotland, and get some skilled workers to cover the gap, dont see why scotland cannot be a high tech economy also and not just be a resources and tourism play.

london has played the game of keeping a lot of things to itself being bartania's only megacity.
Yes ,
London is a classic case of a "Primate City" - which represents the disproportionate dominance of the English - politically , economically , culturally all at the expense of The Scots, The Irish and The Welsh.
Primate City: They dominate the country in influence and are the national focal-point. Their sheer size and activity becomes a strong pull factor, bringing additional residents to the city and causing the primate city to become even larger and more disproportional to smaller cities in the country. However, not every country has a primate city, as you'll see from the list below.

Examples of Countries With Primate Cities

The United Kingdom has London as its primate city (7 million) while the second largest city, Birmingham, is home to a mere one million people.

Examples of Countries that Lack Primate Cities

India's most populous city is Mumbai with 16 million; second is Kolkata with more than 13 million; and third is less than 13 million.


No wonder the Scottish engineering talent is sucked into London - they had no where else to go within britain for the last 300 years and it is the English who through their dominance fueled the Primacy of London.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sudarshan »

Here's one more reason for free Alba. I actually posted this in this same thread in June.

Implications of free Alba on UK new-clear detergent.

Apparently, much/most of the UK new clear detergent is in Scotland, and there are no convenient places in the rest of the UK to move this to.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

sudarshan ji,

UK can save a lot of money by discarding its nuclear warheads. What would a small insignificant country such as England need a nuclear deterrent? Republic of Scotland would not need any nukes and England would not have anywhere to house them, so it is better to get rid of them altogether and with the money saved, the English would be able support its NHS program a bit better.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sudarshan »

My point exactly, Rajesh saar. Currently it seems UK's detergent is stored mostly in Scottish islets and such.

But if the UK gave up its weapons, we also have to worry about UK nukes making it into terrorist hands, due to rogue scientists and their misguided sympathies. They could use Indian assistance in the task of ensuring that this does not happen, no? India would be happy to assist her former colonial benefactor in this noble task.

All tongue-in-cheek onlee, but I'd say there's a good chance of something happening, exactly along these lines.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RamaY »

Would the UNSC seat go to Scottland?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by member_23677 »

RamaY wrote:Would the UNSC seat go to Scottland?
double post
Last edited by member_23677 on 30 Oct 2012 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by member_23677 »

RamaY wrote:Would the UNSC seat go to Scottland?
It should logically go to a more deserving country than that insignificant island... if you know what I mean :mrgreen:

On a serious note, britards are partners in the anglo-anglo bhaichara so I don't see who would really challenge it's position in UN... I don't think any dominant country would come forward to give the power to someone else, like how ROC (Republic of China's) seat was given away to an undeserving CCP by US to score a few brownie points.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

RamaY wrote:Would the UNSC seat go to Scottland?
In any case it wouldn't be such a smooth sailing as it was in 1991 when Soviet Union fell apart and the UNSC seat was given to Russia without much protest. 23 years hence it is going to be very different as there are more aspirants.

But since Scotland would be having most of the nuclear facilities, there is no reason why England, the castrated UK, should have a bigger claim on the UNSC seat. Between England and Scotland, Scotland should get the seat, and if they do not want it, other countries who also struggled against British imperialism, just like Scots, may also be qualified.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

Support for independence in Scotland is 30%.

Even if Scotland did for vote independence, the Royal Navy/England & Wales and NI would maintain ownership of the Vanguard submarines, the Trident missiles and the nuclear warheads. Only question is if/when they would move out of Faslane to a new base in England & Wales.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Agnimitra »

Islamists of Londonistan are very pro- Scottish independence.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

Islamists are an entirely negligible electoral force. But their support for any cause is probably very damaging for that cause!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

devesh wrote:Madhava Rao and Baji Rao were "local heroes"?!?! the geographic area of their field of action is equivalent to Europe, excluding the British Isles and Slavic Europe. so Germany+France+Italy+Spain+small countries squished in between these 4. in Europe, those who came even close to conquering all that area were named either "conquerors" or "tyrants". they were considered "great Empires".

the area conquered by Salahaddin, considered a "great conqueror", is about ONE-THIRD the area of what Baji Rao and Madhava Rao traversed.

when you say "traitorous Gurkhas of Jallianwala Bagh", you are branding the entire Gurkha community with the blame for the massacre. don't you see the inherent contradiction here? in your haste to defend the master race, you are making logical leaps which are hard to reasonably justify. why brand the "Gurkhas"? brand the soldiers who specifically carried out the massacre.
Saar - 'geographic' area sharea is meaningless in the debate. Simbly walk out to the street in India or any other street in any city of the world (since you reside in the US you may wish to try this experiment there). Ask random people if they have heard of Alexander / Sikander or if they have heard of Baji Rao Peshwa or Madan Lal Dhingra. I think the answer will be obvious - and that will be the difference between a 'local' and a 'global' hero.

er..I know I was branding the entire Gurkha community as traitors, but isn't that what we regularly do on the forum with the brits / american/ muslims etc whosoever we currently have a beef with? :) so - sauce for the goose etc...
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Karan Dixit »

^ That was not a very bright post.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

arnab wrote:
devesh wrote:Madhava Rao and Baji Rao were "local heroes"?!?! the geographic area of their field of action is equivalent to Europe, excluding the British Isles and Slavic Europe. so Germany+France+Italy+Spain+small countries squished in between these 4. in Europe, those who came even close to conquering all that area were named either "conquerors" or "tyrants". they were considered "great Empires".

the area conquered by Salahaddin, considered a "great conqueror", is about ONE-THIRD the area of what Baji Rao and Madhava Rao traversed.

when you say "traitorous Gurkhas of Jallianwala Bagh", you are branding the entire Gurkha community with the blame for the massacre. don't you see the inherent contradiction here? in your haste to defend the master race, you are making logical leaps which are hard to reasonably justify. why brand the "Gurkhas"? brand the soldiers who specifically carried out the massacre.
Saar - 'geographic' area sharea is meaningless in the debate. Simbly walk out to the street in India or any other street in any city of the world (since you reside in the US you may wish to try this experiment there). Ask random people if they have heard of Alexander / Sikander or if they have heard of Baji Rao Peshwa or Madan Lal Dhingra. I think the answer will be obvious - and that will be the difference between a 'local' and a 'global' hero.
Just goes to show how the national media can be used to suppress the national narrative. Certainly not a scenario we should aim for.

What is global about Alexander? He defeated the Persians, who were then adversaries of Greece, and at the time were disorganized. Anything beyond that? In India, he could not even ensure a little scratch, but had to go back humiliated and beaten.

The Alexander/Sikander legend was introduced into India by Persian Muslims and later on the British. For Indians otherwise, Alexander means less than a fly.
arnab wrote:er..I know I was branding the entire Gurkha community as traitors, but isn't that what we regularly do on the forum with the brits / american/ muslims etc whosoever we currently have a beef with? :) so - sauce for the goose etc...
No we don't regularly brand entire communities as traitors.

I hope you can differentiate between people whose national and ideological interests do not lie with India and ethnic communities of the Indian Subcontinent whose do, under whichever flag their warriors may have served in the past, considering the flag to represent India, rightly or wrongly.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

OT : Actually I carried out once such a "survey" : not just these illustrious gentlemen, but Sikandar was included. The maximum response came from Lucknow, and far from Lucknow - Sikandar is recognized more in muslim dominated areas, and as Alexander more among Bengali "liberal/left-leaning/forward-section-Hindu"'s. :P Dhingra is surprisingly well known in Punjab and Punjab adjacent UP, and Baji Rao quite well known in Maha. In fact in these two areas, Sikandar was much much less well known.

The very choice of the three names in comparison with Sikandar seen as the most popular - by my experience points to certain subregional and ideological origins/influences 8) .
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

brihaspati wrote:OT : Actually I carried out once such a "survey" : not just these illustrious gentlemen, but Sikandar was included. The maximum response came from Lucknow, and far from Lucknow - Sikandar is recognized more in muslim dominated areas, and as Alexander more among Bengali "liberal/left-leaning/forward-section-Hindu"'s. :P Dhingra is surprisingly well known in Punjab and Punjab adjacent UP, and Baji Rao quite well known in Maha. In fact in these two areas, Sikandar was much much less well known.

The very choice of the three names in comparison with Sikandar seen as the most popular - by my experience points to certain subregional and ideological origins/influences 8) .
Yes but about worldwide? latin america? (lest one thinks that I would be eurocentric), East Asia, Africa or China for instance? :)
Even bollywood (ever in the search of popular motifs)? afterall we had a Muquaddar ka sikandar not a muquaddar ka dhingra :) The 'global' person has become a quote - just like vairations of Caesar became Kaiser and Tsar.
Last edited by arnab on 30 Oct 2012 10:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Prem »

Sir Ji
You have high expectations, not every Indian is as mentally mature as we wish to be . There is lot of work left to rewrite the software running upstair . So what if local heroes saved many so called Indians from Sunnat or British colonialism . Hero Gora is like true God who rules the Indian intellectual schools, fools and mules. BTW, Churchil is also a global Heerow. Did he not put Indian in right place ?
B ji,
Why in the name of four letter Shabad Indians should pay attention to Alexander unless we we want to tell that Porus was full 3 feet taller than him and did put the Qalandar consciousness in Lila Xander. Poor man practically drowned right there in Beas and could not do Ganga Issnan to purify his soul.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

RajeshA wrote:What is global about Alexander? He defeated the Persians, who were then adversaries of Greece, and at the time were disorganized. Anything beyond that? In India, he could not even ensure a little scratch, but had to go back humiliated and beaten.

The Alexander/Sikander legend was introduced into India by Persian Muslims and later on the British. For Indians otherwise, Alexander means less than a fly.
Sir if you have been following the debate - Alexander was introduced in the context of Noor Inayat Khan not doing anything much for India (given that she died at age 28 not much was possibly it was slightly difficult, given that she was no Alexander). Some folks then went off on a tangent about Baji Rao Peshwa's youthful achievements (I'm not entirely sure what he did for 'India' either. Presumably he was more interested in his kingdom). Whether Alexander did for /matters to India is of course a different question altogether.
No we don't regularly brand entire communities as traitors.
Presumably we do it sometimes :)
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

arnab wrote:
No we don't regularly brand entire communities as traitors.
Presumably we do it sometimes :)
Not unless they have national or ideological interests separate from those of India.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

Jhujar wrote:Sir Ji
You have high expectations, not every Indian is as mentally mature as we wish to be . There is lot of work left to rewrite the software running upstair . So what if local heroes saved many so called Indians from Sunnat or British colonialism . ?
absolutely nothing at all :) The point is to have a nuanced view of who 'served' India and who did not. I particularly like the view that Cariappa and Manekshaw 'atoned for their crimes' by serving India. In that spirit of magnanimity may be one can forgive some of the Brits who allowed Indians to work, live and become successful in the UK?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

arnab wrote:I particularly like the view that Cariappa and Manekshaw 'atoned for their crimes' by serving India. In that spirit of magnanimity may be one can forgive some of the Brits who allowed Indians to work, live and become successful in the UK?
Work is charity? Atonement hasn't even started as yet!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

RajeshA wrote:Not unless they have national or ideological interests separate from those of India.
Yes but who determines India's national / ideological interests? (this would be OT for this thread)
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

RajeshA wrote:Work is charity?
In the context of those times - yes. Afterall not many Indians gave up an ICS position like Bose to return and serve India, did they? What stopped them? the realisation that the brits couldn't find replacements if they went away?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Sikandar popular in Latin America? !!! Simon Bolivar would be the prime choice.East Africa - yes, most likely to be among Muslim populations again, but then again not that much outside of Sudan and Saudis. Iranians and by association Shia's have a particularly dim view of Sikandar - they protray him with the devil's horn. I should have clarified that in Lucknow Sikandar was not adored.

Once again, Alexander is a hero more of the British empire, much touted by British historiography, and among Indians - a particular obsession with Alexander/Sikandar is associated with the Anglophile subculture. Outside India, he is better known among ex-Brit colonies, and among social classes traditionally associated with being close to or servile to the Brits.

Well Indians have been kinder with much more to the Brits - in allowing them not only to work, but also to loot, rape and maim and destroy. The greatest kindness Indians showed was providing the necessary bootlickers. The Brits are yet to make up for it in kind and length of time. No one will disagree that a significant portion of Indians were bootlickers of the Brits! Many continue to do so even long after the Brits are not their direct overlords. But that does not elevate bootlicking to the status of national pastime.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by arnab »

brihaspati wrote:Sikandar popular in Latin America? !!! Simon Bolivar would be the prime choice.East Africa - yes, most likely to be among Muslim populations again, but then again not that much outside of Sudan and Saudis. Iranians and by association Shia's have a particularly dim view of Sikandar - they protray him with the devil's horn. I should have clarified that in Lucknow Sikandar was not adored.

Once again, Alexander is a hero more of the British empire, much touted by British historiography, and among Indians - a particular obsession with Alexander/Sikandar is associated with the Anglophile subculture. Outside India, he is better known among ex-Brit colonies, and among social classes traditionally associated with being close to or servile to the Brits.

Well Indians have been kinder with much more to the Brits - in allowing them not only to work, but also to loot, rape and maim and destroy. The greatest kindness Indians showed was providing the necessary bootlickers. The Brits are yet to make up for it in kind and length of time. No one will disagree that a significant portion of Indians were bootlickers of the Brits! Many continue to do so even long after the Brits are not their direct overlords. But that does not elevate bootlicking to the status of national pastime.
arrey 'popular' (as in 'rah rah Alexander') nahi bhai - but are they more likely to have heard of Alexander or Madanlal Dhingra? Umm - saar loot, maim, destruction was already happenning before that. Ah not bootlickers saar - at the time let us say the alignment with the british was guided by what passed for 'national' interest at the time (given that there were many 'nations' then) :)
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