Indian Naval Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 May 2012 13:44

SNaik wrote:

SNaik , what is that small ship besides Teg , has oil container like storage on it and one of the stroage has water written over it ? Supplying Water or Gas to Teg ?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 May 2012 13:45

srai wrote:
Philip wrote:Tx SN for the "extras" and the earlier ones.V.good quality of pics.It appears that the absence of the Kashtan CIWS system on the Teg-there is only the 30mm gatling, means that Barak may be installed later at home.How neatly it can be accommodated remains to be seen.
Good observation!

Lack of Kashtan CIWS hints at lack of IN's faith in that system's capability. Or was the price too high for the capability it provided?

It's a bit more complicated. Kashtan was instalated on the first batch of 11356. When the second batch was negotiated, Russia offered Kashtan-M, because production of the original Kashtan was already discontinued. Kashtan-M was also proposed for Vikramaditya. The problem was that Kashtan-M was still in the project stage and India was not too keen to finance it's development. So it was dropped and replaced with AK-630M. Nevertheless the Positiv M1.2E radar of the Kashtan command module was retained, that's the radar dome on top of the hangar. As India has opted for a mix of AK-630M and Barak-1 on other ships, dropping of Kashtan-M is quite logical and well-founded.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 May 2012 14:01

Austin wrote:
SNaik wrote:
SNaik , what is that small ship besides Teg , has oil container like storage on it and one of the stroage has water written over it ? Supplying Water or Gas to Teg ?

That's port water tanker Baikal.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 May 2012 14:16

SNaik , Does the Ak-630M probably integrated with Positiv M1.2E radar has closed loop guidance enabled ?

Does Vikram have Kashtan-M for CIWS or will they standardise it with Barak/630 combo ?

Wonder why they would keep Positiv M1.2E radar , if they are opting for Barak-1 then they would fit in STGR , its unlikey the Positiv would guide the Baraks.

Port water tanker Thanks , they could always fill that with Vodka for a happy ride back home

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 May 2012 15:11

Austin wrote:SNaik , Does the Ak-630M probably integrated with Positiv M1.2E radar has closed loop guidance enabled ?

Does Vikram have Kashtan-M for CIWS or will they standardise it with Barak/630 combo ?

Wonder why they would keep Positiv M1.2E radar , if they are opting for Barak-1 then they would fit in STGR , its unlikey the Positiv would guide the Baraks.

Port water tanker Thanks , they could always fill that with Vodka for a happy ride back home

No, Austin, Positiv is a target acquisition radar, not FCS. But it's very good against sea-skimmers, so perhaps that's the reason it was kept.
Vikram will not have Kashtan-M as well, don't know yet if they will install AK-630M.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 01 May 2012 16:03

First Indian Warship Exports Valued at $58 Million.

For the first time an Indian shipyard is building a warship for export. Garden Reach Shipbuilders received an order from the Maruritius for two offshore patrol vessels (OPVs). These 91 meter (283 foot) long vessels displace 1,320 tons and are based on the Garden Reach designed Kora class corvettes. Four of these larger ships are in service with the Indian navy and the last one was completed eight years ago. OPVs have fewer weapons than equivalent size warships and instead carry more gear needed for boarding and inspecting ships and dealing with search and rescue.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsurf ... 20430.aspx

Government of Mauritius is currently being implemented with the
OPV being designed and constructed by GRSE Ltd. at a cost of US$ 58.5 million
(funded partly by the EXIM Bank line of credit (US$ 48.5 million) and partly by GOI grant
(US$ 10 million)).

http://www.mea.gov.in/mystart.php?id=50044499

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 May 2012 16:30

SNaik wrote:No, Austin, Positiv is a target acquisition radar, not FCS. But it's very good against sea-skimmers, so perhaps that's the reason it was kept.
Vikram will not have Kashtan-M as well, don't know yet if they will install AK-630M.

Oh I almost forgot Kashtan-M has its own FCS , getting old

, remember tsarkar or some one else mentioning STGR/AK-630M takes care of closed loop guidance

Does RuN uses Kashtan-M or have moved to something else as CIWS ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 May 2012 16:31

AbhiJ wrote:First Indian Warship Exports Valued at $58 Million.

Great News , we need more such orders to make our yards competitive and profitable.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 01 May 2012 18:47

Austin wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:First Indian Warship Exports Valued at $58 Million.

Great News , we need more such orders to make our yards competitive and profitable.

That's the girl

John · Post by **John** » 02 May 2012 04:30

Austin wrote:Dont think that is true , The VL Shtil-1 was offered to china just like it was offered to India for naval ships , the janes are other article on VLS Shtil-1 does not talk of any JV there.

From what i understand the Chinese are producing VL-shtil or their own variant of it details seem a bit murky, Russians do offer it for export of course just like they have with Yakhont which was offered to China.

Vikram will not have Kashtan-M as well, don't know yet if they will install AK-630M.

Plans to fit 6 Kashtan-M seemed to have fallen thru from what i understand it was supposed to be mixture of Ak-630 and Barak-1 based on my post 2 years ago, not sure where i came across that info.

Does RuN uses Kashtan-M or have moved to something else as CIWS ?

There was Palma and also a naval variant of Pantsyr. Added, Speaking of this i think a join venture to replace or update AK-630 would be greatly beneficial there is a lot of improvements and tweaks that can be done.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 May 2012 05:56

SNaik wrote:
Austin wrote:...

Does Vikram have Kashtan-M for CIWS or will they standardise it with Barak/630 combo ?

...
...
Vikram will not have Kashtan-M as well, don't know yet if they will install AK-630M. ...

According to this article, Vikramaditya won't get a CIWS until 2017.

INS Vikramaditya: Waiting for Gorshkov…

...
An official Indian CAG report adds that even when inducted, Vikramaditya will have no aerial defenses until 2017 – whereupon it is scheduled to be retrofitted with only a last-ditch CIWS gun system.
...

Maybe this is how the GoI/MoD/IN managed to lower the price of the Gorshkov by a few hundred million during re-negotiations where the Russians were quoting additional $2 billion to complete the job ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 May 2012 09:04

my prediction is the Viraat will retire soon much before 2017 and its Barak1 system will be plugged into Vik.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 May 2012 09:16

Even if Viraat retires today it wont do much harm , other then creating a psychological problem of we not having an aircraft carrier , Viraat suffers from low availability to the extent it was unavailable for combat in Kargil and 26/11 , but that is a problem if ships get old and Viraat has seen its glory days in Falkland war.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 May 2012 14:26

indeed. once the Vik joins they will surely move the barak1 kit over without waiting for Viraat's retirement.

will be good psyops to see two carrier fleet exercise pics though...do we have any of vikrant and viraat on exercise together with the rest of fleet?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 May 2012 16:19

check out INS Teg commissioning pictures ( via Rossiyskaya Gazeta )

http://foto.rg.ru/gall/1c5e6dc0?1

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 May 2012 09:51

The Making Of Project 1135.6 Batch 2 FFGs & INS Vikramaditya

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 May 2012 11:24

12th Defence Plan: Focus on Navy’s ‘expeditionary’ ops

Always reluctant to say it out aloud, India has finally “admitted” that the Navy will be inducting platforms and building capabilities over the next few years to undertake expeditionary operations and achieve force levels needed for “power projection”.

The recently approved 12th defence plan, which spells out the acquisitions that the armed forces are planning in the next five years and their financial implication, lays emphasis on the need to develop “adequate stand off capability” for “sea lift and expeditionary operations” — the ability to undertake military operations far away from homeland.

The most potent platform with the Navy currently for such operations is the INS Jalashwa — a retired US Navy landing platform dock. However, by the end of this year, a fresh tender for four new Land Platform Docks (LPD) will be floated by the Navy to upgrade its amphibious capabilities.

The 12th defence plan is based on the objective to “build adequate stand off capability for sea lift and expeditionary operations to achieve desired power projection force levels, influence events ashore and undertake military operations other than war”.

This implies the Navy is expanding reach and troop-carrying capability that will enable force projection far away from the mainland.

While the plan has not been made public, it seeks to augment the Navy’s airborne maritime surveillance and strike capability with the induction of shore-based aircraft as well as carrier-based planes.

The Navy is also looking at acquiring force multipliers in the form of additional Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs).

With the first dedicated military satellite slated to get operational this year, the Navy is aiming for space-based assets that will enable the monitoring of sea traffic and will give it global communication and reconnaissance capabilities as per the plan.

A focus point of the plan will also be to arrest the decline of force levels of conventional submarines that has seen a drastic dip due to delays in acquisitions.

Over the next five years, the Navy will also upgrade its special forces to conduct ‘niche capabilities’ like conducting maritime intervention operations.

Another focus area in the 12th plan will be augmenting military infrastructure in the two island territories of Lakshadweep and Andaman and Nicobar.

While the Navy commissioned its largest naval base in Lakshadweep, named INS Dweeprakshak, on Monday, military facilites will be further expanded in the two island chains to “support infrastructure for ships, submarines and aircraft and ports and airbases”.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 May 2012 11:40

While the Navy commissioned its largest naval base in Lakshadweep, named INS Dweeprakshak, on Monday, military facilites will be further expanded in the two island chains to “support infrastructure for ships, submarines and aircraft and ports and airbases”.

--another long standing demand met. we absolutely need a submarine fwd ops base in A&N. with a fleet mostly of SSKs we dont need them burning up time and diesel in additional 1000km round trips to mainland to deploy for next mission.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 May 2012 14:16

The IN needs good logistic facilities in both A&N and LDweep which can not only sustain forward deployment of naval forces but also be able to conduct major repairs when and if neccessary.Apart from the LPDs/LHPDs on the anvil,if we are to engage ourselves in "expeditionary" warfare fundmentally to protect our island territories,we need to think seriously about starting an independent Marine Corps,which in its initial format can be under the IA,specialised for amphibious assault.The size of this force will be commensurate with our external obligations to friendly nations in the IOR and beyond.Now that the heavylift capability will be augmented with the future acquisition of C-17 inter-continental strrategic airlifters to add to the IL-76MDs in service,we should be able to support a limited force in the future,which will also have the power projection and air support of 3 new carriers.

Nevertheless ,we must realise that we are not global "peacekepers" like the US and NATO,who have bankrupted themselves with their "expeditionary" activities,and such forces and power projection capabilities must be primariy used to support our offshore territories and global economic interests,such as our planned JVs for oil exploration with Vietnam in the Indo-China Sea.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 May 2012 14:19

Austin wrote:The Making Of Project 1135.6 Batch 2 FFGs & INS Vikramaditya

You know there is a unwritten rule to not quote Mr. plagiarist or link to his blog...it would be great if you stick to that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2012 15:12

I thought the article was interesting and rare and the interview was quite good ( its good to hear thoughts of what the other side thinks of our Navy professionals ) lots of interesting information hard to find other wise.

I dont know if we banned any one officially or unofficially but if there is any thing worthwhile posting from any blog no harm in doing so for greater good of naval lovers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2012 15:14

We have seen quite a few footage of Brahmos , Uran missile but never seen any of Klub so far , its been 10 years its operational and no videos of the land attack or supersonic dart in action , except those graphically generated images.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 May 2012 15:44

Austin wrote:
SNaik wrote:No, Austin, Positiv is a target acquisition radar, not FCS. But it's very good against sea-skimmers, so perhaps that's the reason it was kept. Vikram will not have Kashtan-M as well, don't know yet if they will install AK-630M.
Oh I almost forgot Kashtan-M has its own FCS , getting old , remember tsarkar or some one else mentioning STGR/AK-630M takes care of closed loop guidance

Until Teg gets Barak from decommed Godavari, the two EO sights on cantilevers on either side of Positiv and slaved to Positiv will guide each AK-630. See here http://foto.rg.ru/gall/1c5e6dc0?19 http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... DTeg-1.jpg
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... 3D1004.jpg
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GP0068.jpg
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/ ... GP0060.jpg

Austin wrote:We have seen quite a few footage of Brahmos , Uran missile but never seen any of Klub so far , its been 10 years its operational and no videos of the land attack or supersonic dart in action , except those graphically generated images.

Only Indian and possibly Chinese orders were manufactured and its expensive unlike mass produced BrahMos. There are pictures of Talwar and shivalik firings.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 May 2012 15:58

Vice Adm Satish Soni to be the CinC of Southern Naval Command

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2012 17:01

tsarkar wrote:Until Teg gets Barak from decommed Godavari, the two EO sights on cantilevers on either side of Positiv and slaved to Positiv will guide each AK-630.

If positiv has FCS capability then yes , that should be quite doable but SNaik had mentioned that its just survellence radar that probably hands out target to Kashtan , but considering there is nothing out there Positiv looks logical , in good old days it used to be Bass Tilt , the EO's are good for passive survellence but not real FCS potential due to lack of all weather and ranging capability.

Only Indian and possibly Chinese orders were manufactured and its expensive unlike mass produced BrahMos. There are pictures of Talwar and shivalik firings.

Indians and Vietnam on their new 636 will be armed with Klub , Chinese its not confirmed if they use Club system on 636 , the non-export variant Kalbir is almost a standard missile on all new Russian ships and Nuclear Submarine that i have seen so far.

But thats not really the point even Kh-35 thats not widely exported has videos of it released by its developer but Klub does not even after 10 years , even in Expo i have seen only graphical stuff thats a bit strange if its targeted for export market , its possible it might be on Russian forum have asked on mp if there is any.

Klub is one very interesting missile , having an entire family of systems developed for all roles....thats standardisation at its best.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 May 2012 19:34

I dont know if we banned any one officially or unofficially but if there is any thing worthwhile posting from any blog no harm in doing so for greater good of naval lovers.

We will let admins deal with the plagiarist but you could do the normal courtesy of
Posting a snippet with Name and source so that we can stay clear of this and leave it the naval lovers and india today lovers.

This applies in general

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 May 2012 20:06

Austin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Until Teg gets Barak from decommed Godavari, the two EO sights on cantilevers on either side of Positiv and slaved to Positiv will guide each AK-630.
If positiv has FCS capability then yes , that should be quite doable but SNaik had mentioned that its just survellence radar that probably hands out target to Kashtan , but considering there is nothing out there Positiv looks logical , in good old days it used to be Bass Tilt , the EO's are good for passive survellence but not real FCS potential due to lack of all weather and ranging capability.

Positiv is not the FCS and there is no disconnect with what SNaik said. It is a search radar that provides cues to the EO Ball on where to look. EO Balls looks, tracks and guides the gun. Similar to Super Dvora XFAC boats where EO Ball guides the 20mm Oerlikon gun automatically. The system is called Typhoon, if I recollect right.

John · Post by **John** » 04 May 2012 20:17

tsarkar wrote:Positiv is not the FCS and there is no disconnect with what SNaik said. It is a search radar that provides cues to the EO Ball on where to look. EO Balls looks, tracks and guides the gun. Similar to Super Dvora XFAC boats where EO Ball guides the 20mm Oerlikon gun automatically. The system is called Typhoon, if I recollect right.

5P-10E can guide AK-630 granted it's location may prevent it from tracking targets in the rear of the ship.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 May 2012 00:11

Clearer picture of AK-630 EO ball next to Positiv and just above the gun http://s019.radikal.ru/i619/1204/de/456014a1be21.jpg

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 May 2012 10:55

Indian Navy warships for two month deployment in South East Asia

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 05 May 2012 18:43

tsarkar wrote:Clearer picture of AK-630 EO ball next to Positiv and just above the gun http://s019.radikal.ru/i619/1204/de/456014a1be21.jpg

Sir, is that EO ball a desi (BEL ?) poduct?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 05 May 2012 21:24

John wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Positiv is not the FCS and there is no disconnect with what SNaik said. It is a search radar that provides cues to the EO Ball on where to look. EO Balls looks, tracks and guides the gun. Similar to Super Dvora XFAC boats where EO Ball guides the 20mm Oerlikon gun automatically. The system is called Typhoon, if I recollect right.
5P-10E can guide AK-630 granted it's location may prevent it from tracking targets in the rear of the ship.

Exactly. The diagram illustrates FCS on Russian 20380 corvette. AK-630M may be controled by primary control - Sfera-02 el-op sensor, secondary controls - 5P-10 Puma radar or 2 MTK-201 reserve el-op sensors.

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 05 May 2012 21:33

Shinmaywa SS3 is very promising aircraft to cover the gap in vast Indian coast It also share engine with C130 aircraft Indian received recently.

Shinmaywa SS3

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 May 2012 21:56

talks have started with japan on getting some of these.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 05 May 2012 23:17

sarabpal.s wrote:Shinmaywa SS3 is very promising aircraft to cover the gap in vast Indian coast It also share engine with C130 aircraft Indian received recently.

Shinmaywa SS3

The problem with Amphibian plane, is that it requires calm waters to take off and land. If the waters are choppy then it cannot land and take off. This puts them at a very severe disadvantage in case of inclement weather. In an era where all-weather is the default option, rather than a niche capability, these planes simply cannot compete with their land based counterparts. In terms of range and endurance, they offer nothing new.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 May 2012 23:29

in areas where no land bases are possible like laccadive chain (small islands), north andamans (wooded steep islands with tribal reserves) they can function as a useful CG/logistic/SF asset . take for example narcondam island. a boat goes there every 30 days to relieve the 20 troops stationed in this most lonely of outposts. a seaplane could make lit better than a NH90/EC725 type naval helicopter - speed, payload, range.

http://kalyanvarma.net/journal/2010/05/ ... he-island/

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 06 May 2012 00:51

You do realize the SS 3 is an amphibian, and capable of both land and water takeoff & landings.

If this purchase goes thru then we will have both the land based variants and the specialized amphibians. It's not an either/or choice.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 May 2012 01:21

Christopher Sidor wrote:
sarabpal.s wrote:Shinmaywa SS3 is very promising aircraft to cover the gap in vast Indian coast It also share engine with C130 aircraft Indian received recently.

Shinmaywa SS3
The problem with Amphibian plane, is that it requires calm waters to take off and land. If the waters are choppy then it cannot land and take off. This puts them at a very severe disadvantage in case of inclement weather. In an era where all-weather is the default option, rather than a niche capability, these planes simply cannot compete with their land based counterparts. In terms of range and endurance, they offer nothing new.

PR material claims can deal with 3 M (10 Ft) waves (Stage 5, rough seas).

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 06 May 2012 01:34

NRao wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote: The problem with Amphibian plane, is that it requires calm waters to take off and land. If the waters are choppy then it cannot land and take off. This puts them at a very severe disadvantage in case of inclement weather. In an era where all-weather is the default option, rather than a niche capability, these planes simply cannot compete with their land based counterparts. In terms of range and endurance, they offer nothing new.
PR material claims can deal with 3 M (10 Ft) waves.

Assume that waves are 3 Meter high, what can be unloaded and loaded into the plane with such high waves? It would still be more useful for India to build short airstrips on North Andaman and Lakshadeep island chain. It would be more prudent to depend on land based air planes/ships/hovercraft.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 May 2012 02:59

Christopher Sidor wrote: Assume that waves are 3 Meter high, what can be unloaded and loaded into the plane with such high waves? It would still be more useful for India to build short airstrips on North Andaman and Lakshadeep island chain. It would be more prudent to depend on land based air planes/ships/hovercraft.

Seems like the problem is not frequent enough - 1/2 on an average per year.

However, even then, I am sure the designer AND the operators of such a plane have taken that into consideration before they ventured to invest into it. I do not have the answer - as I type.

With modern day techs I am sure prevention is the preferred option, specially with the ability to predict intensity of storms fairly accurately. IF at all they have to operate in 3 M waves it would be the exception.