Artillery: News & Discussion

niran · Post by **niran** » 18 Sep 2015 09:40

Singha wrote:they might be useful to unload on area targets like vehicular concentrations.

simple arty shells with basic timed fuze fired from 10-12 guns will wipe villages in a jiffy why villages? cos villages will be the places paki army will setup their HQs etc. no need for smart shells.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Sep 2015 09:52

They may be needed in some specific cases. First things we need to do is allow private sector to make them. So far that is not happening.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 Sep 2015 09:58

Singha wrote:these 'smart' projectiles are very expensive. a basic shell costs $1000 ...the excalibur types are presently costing $70,000 when purchased by their home user the us army in some bulk.

these make sense when pervasive air superiority makes UAV lasing possible or some deep-look survivable ELO C3I sensor gives you instantly over the network the exact GPS co-ordinates of enemy targets before they can relocate. we do not remotely have such a superior network and c3I to fully leverage this or any other american idea that relies on such concepts.

we are better off building up our ammo factories to full "web hyperscale" and stock up massively on basic shells , while driving down costs for the same. our artillery is already networked down to the battery level so converged fires from multiple regiments are feasible.

SFW type payloads delivered from both pinaka(high numbers) and shells(maybe 2-3 in each) should be domestically explored not imported. they might be useful to unload on area targets like vehicular concentrations.

If excalibur types are costly , why not Smart 155 and Bonus types ?? those projectiles don't need such elaborate infra. No one is telling to entirely replace basic projectiles with smart ones . I told those smart projectiles will be very useful in plain areas in taking out fixed and mobile targets. Some research must be going on that area in Desh.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Sep 2015 10:04

A judicial mix of both will be useful.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2015 10:23

one thing is the actual shells and the other is the charges.

wrt to charges, here is the pitiful state of the nalanda project a year ago. first denel was taken out, then IMI was taken out. note who asked the question in parliament to check out that everything was still in limbo.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=111793

the rape continues:
http://www.defproac.com/?p=971

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2015 10:25

the TSPA way back in 2008 had installed a south korean 155mm shell factory and it must really be humming now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG5jntdpXzg

the only way we are going to produce such shells and charges is if we let a indian pvt sector collaborate with a foreign partner to establish a plant here and run with it. the foreign tender route is too open to sabotage.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Sep 2015 10:30

Jhujar wrote:This bring to the same old question, are we still importing the ammunition or DO we have manufacturing facility for 155m shell? I believe It was scuttled,sabotaged by UPA couple of times.

It scuttled and purshed and eventually allowed from Nalanda in 2013. In 2004 was scuttled.

I will put my neck out, can comment on Parrikar but George Fernandez was the Best Indian Defence Minister. He built a lot of things which were scuttled by UPA. Luckily stuff like Karwar, Brahmos, revival of Agni series Missiles, First orders for Arjun, all survived in spite of UPA's best interests.

I was not at all political minded then but am now and main reason, is the INC sees India should be a defanged nation which at best hold status quo or not loose too much territory in 10-15 day imports arms fought war. They for some reason want to comeplty degrade India's capabilities. UPA decesions were guided like this. That is M-2000-5 was converted to MMRCA fiasco but stuff like C-130's, C-17s, M-4 rifles imported from USA, Barretta sub machine guns imported from Italy while cancelling/delaying host of other program mes happened.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 Sep 2015 10:36

Sorry , if this the situation ...smart shells and all ...duhhhhh..my last post on it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Sep 2015 10:40

I think we need to build dumb projectiles in numbers while trying some home grown solutions like excalibur with Gagan, home grown UAV's etc are developed, it will probably take longer but it take us 20+ years without sabotage to fix our artillery situation.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Sep 2015 12:55

BTW what is the status of the M-777 deal?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Sep 2015 18:30

ramana wrote:
shiv, This is called hypersonic lift. Its proportional to the Mach number and the L/D ratio of the body.

L/Dmax = 4(M+3)/M a value purely driven by Mach Number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-to-drag_ratio

In high mountains the hypersonic lift contributes to overshoot. So the trajectory has to be more high angle to make the shell fall. Or fire with reduced charge to reduce the Mach number.

Germans found this out in high altitude warfare in the Alps.
Shells tend to overshoot.

I guess the same effect with rockets too, the air being lighter resulting in greater thrust et al. Ballistic missiles launched from altitudes and indeed all types of rockets gain range or can use lower energy launched at altitudes exceeding 10,000 ft.

These days with ER projectiles, rockets, quite a few goals can be achieved at reasonable distances, if we can eliminate aerial threats to these assets. Example, I think much of the assets of the PA can be within sustained firing ranges of artillery launched from within our side of the border/LoC. Throw like a million shells at them, it is only a billion dollars and will damage much of their assets and quite a few of their cities too, including Muzaraffabad, Pind, Ibad, Lahore, Muridke and if needed a few more in Sindh too.

Dispense 100,00 shells a day, the entire action can be completed by 1000 guns under an hour. Also no, it is not outrageous, the US for example dispensed an average of 10,0000 shells per day in Vietnam. It will certainly be enough to harass them and destroy maybe 20% of their assets enough to brown lungis. In contrast, at Kargil we dispensed less than 5,000 of these sweeties (including mortar). The airforce and precision strike will have to suppress any counter fire. What do we call this strategy?

If the pukes have the guts to escalate let them. If for every terrorist incident, we throw a thousand 155 mm shells at one of their cities, they will get the message. All this small arms fire and 81 mm is playing their game of tit for tat and does not achieve much.

I am in awe of the 2nd artillery of the PLA and hence do think we need mountain guns in spades, along with loads of Brahmos, Pragatis, Prahaars and conventional Prithvis, in addition to maintaining superiority in the air on the Tibet border. If we can mange to keep the upcoming ATAGS under 12 tons, it would be heli lift capable. Our ability to deter the PLA depends upon air and fire power superiority, that we can assemble on the border.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Sep 2015 18:33

Yagnasri wrote:They may be needed in some specific cases. First things we need to do is allow private sector to make them. So far that is not happening.

A visit to OFB pages will tell a lot.

Yes 155MM shells are made by OFB.

Basic fuzes are also made by OFB.
However proximity fuzes which have radio component are made by ECIL.
There is a private sector firm run by 'evil' (Nehruvian stds) business house also making similar fuzes.

The problem in OFB is worker productivity and the old Congress jobs program. Same thing in ROF till Thatcher privatized them.

ARDE is working on GPS fuzes for Artillery. Takes the laser designator out.
Krasnopol turned out not so good in high mountains.

Shows the IA perception of the importance of smart fuzes in high mountains.
They want better kill ratio. Read the Sainik Samachar article on Artillery in Kargil and usage rate.

IMHO, Krasnopol should be awesome in plains and desert against TSP.
And having a factory allows IA to tinker and improve the shell.
I don't know if they still have those heavy 160mm mortars.
Krasnopol on such a mortar would also be great in the mountains.
However PRC has a factory to make Krasnopol shells.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 18 Sep 2015 18:47

Isn't the next variant of the Pinaka slated to have GPS/IRNSS guided rockets with 120km range? My impression was that they would be used for precision fire

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Sep 2015 19:31

Some good news.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14094/ ... fwmJcsVhjo

India’s 145 M777 Howitzer Deal Fast-Tracked
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Friday, September 18, 2015

India’s plan to procure145 BAE Systems M777 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight howitzers deal is being fast tracked by signing a letter of acceptance (LoA) by the Pentagon and Indian MoD.

“LoA is in the process of being finalized following broad agreement on its content between the Indian MoD and the Pentagon,” Janes reported Thursday.

The LoA includes revised tender price of an approximate US $700 million, delivery schedules, and guarantees and after sales support.

Industry sources said the MoD had also instructed BAE Systems to submit by the end of October its offset agreements with local companies, which are valued at 30% of the overall contract value and estimated to be worth around USD200 million.

The India Defense Acquisition Council cleared the procurement of M777 howitzers made by BAE Systems of the US in May this year.

International companies such as Denel, Rosoboronexport and BAE Systems had bid for a proposal to procure 814 artillery guns worth $2.5 billion in 2010. BAE Systems had won the contract to supply 145 M777 ultra-light howitzers worth $493 million.

Despite negotiations running into years, talks had broken down last year over price. “The case for procurement of ultra-light howitzer guns through the US government has not progressed due to cost issues and because the vendor has not been able to come up with a proposal fully compliant to the offset requirements,” the then-defense minister Arun Jaitley had told Parliament in July last year.

BAE Systems has offered to set up an assembly line with a local partner to make the guns domestically.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Sep 2015 20:54

Artillery and infantry moving as one unit must be appreciated. Pretty much moving as one like a snake moves its body. Sustained air presence and overwhelming fire concentrated at a single point from an entire battery I doubt would be matched by any aerial platform. Reading how russian batteries stopped von Kluge's pincer by moving into position and very quickly setting up and firing. Having massed artillery and ammo is a cheaper option to support infantry and armoured movement than aerial support. Doesn't preclude necessity for that capability though.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 30 Sep 2015 03:22

x-posted from acquisitions thread:

More good news, what is going on all of a sudden??

Make in India: L&T outguns global rivals to bag Rs 5,000-crore Indian Army deal

NEW DELHI: India is finally set to get its own mobile howitzers that will reverse the longheld Pakistani battlefield edge on artillery guns.

The guns Pakistan have were supplied by the US ostensibly for the 'war on terror'. In a deal that would also fit the 'Make in India' mandate, domestic manufacturer Larsen and Toubro has emerged as the finalist for a $750-million (about Rs 5,000 crore) contract to supply 100 self-propelled artillery guns to the Indian Army.

The 155 mm artillery guns are specially designed for operation in the desert areas bordering Pakistan and have been a longstanding requirement of the Army, officials said. India's concerns over Pakistan acquiring an edge in conventional warfare escalated in 2009 when the US supplied it 115 of the modern M 109A5 cannons as a "reward" for its assistance in the war on the Afghanistan border.

The Army had then accelerated its plans to procure a similar system, but the process dragged on for many years, with the defence ministry finally taking a call on the winner last week. Sources told ET that the K9 VAJRA-T howitzer, pitched by L&T in partnership with Samsung, has been shortlisted for the contract.

Once signed — the final process could take another six months — the Vajra could be the first new artillery gun to be produced in India since the 1980s when the Bofors was acquired. A parallel effort to procure M777 ultra-light howitzers from the US is under progress.

The Vajra will be produced at L&T's Pune facility and could be considered for exports in the future, along with an expected followon order for more guns for the Army.

The victory is especially sweet for L&T as it was competing in the global category, which was open to all arms vendors around the world.

The Vajra beat its Russian competitor on several technical grounds, including rate of fire, accuracy and mobility trials, officials said. L&T officials, however, refused to comment on the development.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Sep 2015 03:39

Mixed feelings actually. This so easily could have been Bhim. Now, we can forget that, forever. Anyways, a step in the right direction.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 30 Sep 2015 04:39

Renuka Chowdhary killed the Bhim.

Too late to cry over Bhim. I hope the L&T order goes through quickly, and the army gets some guns at last.

Was the Bharat Forge gun taking part in this competition?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Sep 2015 05:32

There were two guns in the final round vying for the self propelled artillery order. Thankfully Indian is going with the L&T/K9 combo instead of the Russian MSTA Junk (which is a 152 mm Howitzer fitted in the T 80 Main Battle Tank Chassis and Runs with the T 72 Tanks engines!!!!)

I hope Modi/Parrikar will decide fast on finalizing the contracts for the wheeled and ULH guns next.

Bharat Forge is making a serious bid for the Mounted and Towed guns contract in partnership with Elbit Systems.

Details of the 155 MM guns procurement program of the Indian Army.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Sep 2015 07:32

Wonderful news. Sign the deal and start making the guns.

One more thing, end the distinction between the mounted gun and SPA, and increase the number of guns built.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Sep 2015 07:39

Some background on South Africa Guns

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol091ig.html

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 30 Sep 2015 07:42

100 guns for $750 million? What other aspects are included in the contract?

The number is on the low side isn't it? Maybe a bigger order would have been better.

What does this mean for the Dhanush that has been ordered and is being further developed by OFB?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2015 08:04

it would be ironic if we kill a BAE M109, which fires samsung ammo, using a Samsung K9 SP gun, using BAE TOT 155mm ammo or BAE M777.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 30 Sep 2015 08:30

Kashi wrote: What does this mean for the Dhanush that has been ordered and is being further developed by OFB?

Dhanush is in towed category, this is self propelled.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Sep 2015 08:55

the Vajra could be the first new artillery gun to be produced in India since the 1980s when the Bofors was aquired

DDM should stop copy pasting this factoid in every article related to artillery, the OFB Dhanush is already being inducted IIRC.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Sep 2015 09:42

Actually, I'm not exactly very happy with this K-9 induction.

Considering that the induction of guns has been delayed for such a long time, some more wait would not have hurt.

The TATA chaps are already offering the Mounted Gun System which uses gun 'derived' from Denel family of howitzer. The very same family which was going to be used (G6) on our very own Bhim. And I think the ban on Denel has also been lifted.

It would've been wise to work with Denel again for Bhim as well as wheeled SP Artillery - this time adapting the same gun as MGS from TATA. MGS is the second biggest component of our FARP and will amount to about ~850 guns. Using the same gun on MGS, Tracked and Wheeled SPA would've helped a lot on logistic front and helped to keep the life-cycle cost down.

Our very own Dhanush and ATAGS could've filled the massive towed gun requirement.

For god's sake, why for can't we once do away with this L1 thing and multi-vendor process?

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 30 Sep 2015 09:48

According to Wiki, K9 uses MTU engine. I hope L&T takes gets the license to manufacture those engines in India. It may also helps our MBT Arjuns engines.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Sep 2015 13:40

Final requirement of K9 SPG for IA may well be over 200.

Ideally it should be 10% of the MBT strength.

The requirement of 180nos wheeled 155mm SPG tender which is cancelled can be fulfilled by K9 SPG.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Sep 2015 14:59

kmkraoind wrote:According to Wiki, K9 uses MTU engine. I hope L&T takes gets the license to manufacture those engines in India. It may also helps our MBT Arjuns engines.

Not for 100 units only. This is what DRDO has been telling the IA regarding Arjun MBTs. Order 500 units and they will obtain the license for the MTU engines to manufacture it in India. But alas, the IA has yet to order more than 118 units at a time. Piecemeal orders by the user hamper indigenous (or Make in India) efforts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2015 15:27

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/che ... th-to-now/

can anyone id the tripod gun seen in the link?
seems a throwback to this type of guns used from the backs of camels in the old days.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 352924.jpg

interesting link on history of camel gunners
http://flint-and-jade.tumblr.com/post/8 ... el-gunners

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 30 Sep 2015 15:28

rohitvats wrote:Actually, I'm not exactly very happy with this K-9 induction.

Considering that the induction of guns has been delayed for such a long time, some more wait would not have hurt.

The TATA chaps are already offering the Mounted Gun System which uses gun 'derived' from Denel family of howitzer. The very same family which was going to be used (G6) on our very own Bhim. And I think the ban on Denel has also been lifted.

It would've been wise to work with Denel again for Bhim as well as wheeled SP Artillery - this time adapting the same gun as MGS from TATA. MGS is the second biggest component of our FARP and will amount to about ~850 guns. Using the same gun on MGS, Tracked and Wheeled SPA would've helped a lot on logistic front and helped to keep the life-cycle cost down.

Our very own Dhanush and ATAGS could've filled the massive towed gun requirement.

For god's sake, why for can't we once do away with this L1 thing and multi-vendor process?

I have to agree with Rohit on this one. Combination of our own Dhanush + Arjun chassis would have been way better for us. How does screwdrivergiri by L&T help us? It is another import in face of excellent indigenous developments. It is costly and there is no urgency.

srin · Post by **srin** » 30 Sep 2015 15:34

I'm in the camp of "let's get more arty guns, from anywhere". After the drought of the past decade, I'm glad that this govt has shown haste in procuring the guns - Dhanush, M777s and now this K6.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 30 Sep 2015 16:55

Hope BAE Systems selects the "Indian Partner" soon for getting the assembling in India kickstarted. They were supposed to finalize the Indian entity in August . IIRC it was supposed to be the Mahindras.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 30 Sep 2015 17:19

kmkraoind wrote:According to Wiki, K9 uses MTU engine. I hope L&T takes gets the license to manufacture those engines in India. It may also helps our MBT Arjuns engines.

Different engines. 1000 vs 1400 hp.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Sep 2015 17:20

I hope L&T may be, far more intelligent and will really learn something from the making of the 100 units and use it for developing its capabilities. Further they may try to do some serious exports also.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Sep 2015 18:01

Now we will have 1 gun type for SPG, 1 gun type for wheeled, 3 for regular (if not more), Bofors, Dhanush, ATAGS and then one more for towed..

Best to cancel the wheeled and make it K-9 too and combine towed and regular self propelled ones if not already done.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 30 Sep 2015 18:06

Singha wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/che ... th-to-now/

can anyone id the tripod gun seen in the link?

IIRC, that's the soviet SPG-9 AT Gun.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 30 Sep 2015 18:07

karan, rohit - dont get spoilt

we were begging for any damn gun

Take it

I just want them rolling in service

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 30 Sep 2015 18:17

Is it even feasible to base all your artillery guns of various types on the same basic design? Atleast say the barrel?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2015 18:19

guns , engines, trucks, tank chassis are not exactly java applets that one glues together to make a app in a day.
any such fresh effort will take years unless you take exactly what the vendor already has tested - like denel has their G6 on a wheeled low slung truck.