Indian Education System

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somnath
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by somnath »

^^^I think this is a problem..
Earlier on July 9, Kageri issued a circular proposing that Bhagavad Gita should be taught to schoolchildren at least for an hour on a daily basis
If this was done by a private school run by RSS, no one should have a problem..In fact I know for a fact that schools run by RK Mission actively teach Gita (and other hindu texts)...

The problem is if the state govt starts implementing this in govt schools, or making it mandatory for ALL schools by diktat - that goes against the spirit of our polity...

Its really incredibly stupid - they should be trying to up the standards in govt schools and general curricula, not indulge in obvious tokenism of this sort...He is taking a leaf out of Murli Manohar Joshi's book I guess!
vera_k
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by vera_k »

Aditya_V wrote:Vera K read whats in the article and Bullshit headline, he said respect Gita and not complusarily reading it, Catholic schools have a seperate period for tteaching Bible, non catholic students are taught Moral science, why not do the same for Hindu stuedents in Hindu Majority schools.
Near the bottom, the article says he issued a circular asking for it to be taught in govt schools. Problem with this is that it closes an alternative to attract minority students to these schools. Can they then be blamed if they turn to some obscurantist madrassa instead enrolling in govt schools?
ManishH
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by ManishH »

They can teach the principles of Gita in the curriculum without being explicit or naming the Gita. Eg. who can protest when a curriculum teaches Karmanyevadhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachan: ?

This is exactly what xtian schools do - the subject is called Moral Science - but the matter is mostly biblical ideology.
Vipul
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vipul »

Defence courses see rise in applications.

As globalisation has spread its wings in all spheres, students in the city seem to be showing keen interest in graduating in courses allied to international relations and military policies. The Department of Defence and Strategic Studies (DDSC) at the University of Pune (UoP) has witnessed a steady increase in the number of applications for courses related to international studies, subjects that were not always sought after.

Professor Arun Dalvi, who heads the department, informed that they have received 125 applications for its post-graduate and M Phil courses this year. This is a steady increase since last year they received around 100 applications. "More students are interested in studying subjects such as international relations, military diplomacy". This year, 35 students will be selected on the basis of an entrance exam and an interview with the faculty thereafter.

While social sciences like sociology, political science and economics are commonly preferred; specialised subjects like defence and its non-military aspects are rarely pursued. But Dalvi said that several students have been showing interests in subjects like defence economy, military history, defence organisation, defence geography, internal security management policy and foreign policy with regards to military relations.

"Out of this list -- internal security is the subject most commonly researched by both civilians and retired and serving army officers who study here. The reason might be the current internal security threat in Kashmir, Naxalism, and insurgency in the north-east", explained Dalvi.

The department currently has 40 students pursuing their PhD in subjects allied to internal security. Dalvi pointed out that the department has an Army Residents Scholars (ARS) programme, which is run in collaboration with the Indian Army who aims to provide scope for development to their officers. He explains that eight army officers of Colonel and above ranks are given an opportunity to research on topics, while on deputation from the Army. Out of these eight, four were also admitted for the M Phil course.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by RamaY »

somnath wrote:^^^I think this is a problem..
Earlier on July 9, Kageri issued a circular proposing that Bhagavad Gita should be taught to schoolchildren at least for an hour on a daily basis
If this was done by a private school run by RSS, no one should have a problem..In fact I know for a fact that schools run by RK Mission actively teach Gita (and other hindu texts)...

The problem is if the state govt starts implementing this in govt schools, or making it mandatory for ALL schools by diktat - that goes against the spirit of our polity...

Its really incredibly stupid - they should be trying to up the standards in govt schools and general curricula, not indulge in obvious tokenism of this sort...He is taking a leaf out of Murli Manohar Joshi's book I guess!

Boy we go here again. Could you please tell why it is bad to have BG as a course, other than being a Hindu scripture?

Before you bring your [sic] secular == there are many rreasons why Bible and Koran are bad books for an evolving mind.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Some video lectures from IITs/IISc are available on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/nptelhrd

Some American universities have also uploaded videos of their courses.
RamaY
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by RamaY »

AP state has 2,14,689 engineering seats, out of which nearly 1,00,000 seats will be vacant in this year.
joshvajohn
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by joshvajohn »

IN Tamil Nadu, AIADMK rule is going mad. They are completely ridiculous. when DMK is removed for corruption and nepotism, AIADMK is nothing less in doing damage to Children Education. If they want to bring any change in books they can certainly do it next year while allowing the children to go ahead this year.

Samacheer Kalvi amendment: SC reserves its verdict
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 322532.ece
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

When I was in school, Mu Ka. had a Tamil lesson written on Flag Day and how important it is for people to contribute to the welfare of ex-soldiers. Up came JJ, and she threw that lesson away and replaced it with her own scripted lesson on abolitioning free booze in society and some snide remarks on patriotism. Barring these two lessons, the whole syllabus was same same. Big deal, most of the show was/is just plain bs, noone cares, noone loses much. People will keep using old texts and not much is lost either way.

The drama is in the tv because the foot is now on the other side. For all that spouting of caring about people, both are =='s in terms of free-loading.
Mort Walker
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Mort Walker »

Can someone please point out to official sources for recent data on high school graduation rates for each state and then the whole of India? A recent article in the WSJ indicated only 1 in 8 students in India completed 12th grade. This data seems wrong, and the last official numbers, as I read in the press, was over 50%.
vera_k
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by vera_k »

Seems about right. High school in India ends at 10th grade. There's some halting moves to scrap the 10th grade board exam and have everyone study till 12th, but not much progress has been made.

Unicef reports secondary school enrollment ratios in the mid-50s. NCERT plans to have universal 12th grade education only by 2020.
SwamyG
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SwamyG »

If I am not mistaken, the big deal about Samacher Kalvi, is indirect or direct Ode to Muka in the books. The children suffer in this drama between Muka and JJ. There is no point in schools in TN having different syllabus and standards. The core idea of MuKa was okay, but he implemented it with his own pet agendas causing takleef to JJ.
Bade
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Negi-saar opined in nukkad,
^ Well in fact the syllabus is partly to be blamed for the mess; I wrote a letter to NCERT folks some days back to revisit the Physics and Mathematics course for XIIth class; they still teach electromagnetics before calculus is introduced to the students. So why should we be surprised if kids mug up the Gauss's theorem ?
This fixation on syllabus and even use of that word is hardly heard of elsewhere, it is not that it does not exist, but plenty of freedom to set ones own course. I know you are referring to +2 level, so things need to be standardized to some extent as to what is minimally covered.

It is not like that only the IITs gives one this freedom to set the course content. I can tell you from experience that folks at JU experimented with the order and content of the course for UG level to our benefit. There was a intro Math Methods in Physics course which really helped with preparation for delving into Classical Mechanics, E&M courses at a higher level in the first year itself. It is another matter that people did get hammered in the exams. :) The Math methods course was split into an Intro level in 1st semester and later at Advanced level in the 4th sem to be prepared for more fun and thrashing. But then there were some who did General Relativity level math by the 3rd sem itself on their own. With such a varied level of aptitude in the class, it was difficult to tailor things to help all.

Unfortunately at the PG level they stuck with their heads in the syllabus mode, since it was no more a semester system with a final year re-regurgitating filtering exam. That is when I decided to seek greener pastures with more flexibility. A few others did too, but only to return back due to cultural incompatibilities. :eek:
negi
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by negi »

Bade wrote:This fixation on syllabus and even use of that word is hardly heard of elsewhere, it is not that it does not exist, but plenty of freedom to set ones own course. I know you are referring to +2 level, so things need to be standardized to some extent as to what is minimally covered.
Well structure of syllabus at foundation level courses is key to the level of understanding a student will have after completion of the course; for instance on an average how many students at +2 level will be able to articulate clearly as to what does one mean by the terms derivative, differentiation, integration (meaning as in their physical significance and relevance in day to day problems) versus say give them some usual problems from textbooks where one will be able to apply all those textbook formulas (integral by parts, substitution etc etc); I am sure majority of them would be able to solve the problems however not sure if everyone who solved the problem will be able to articulate as to what does that solution imply (and I think this is the underlying reason for the fear of mathematics in kids). Same is the case when one starts teaching Electromagnetics to 12th class students who do not know what a line integral is , they end up mugging the expressions for time being until they have a tube-light moment in the mathematics class a month later when they are introduced to Integral calculus.

Imho at B Tech level the issue is there are simply too many subjects and topics crammed into a given semester for a professor or even students to do justice to a particular subject (or may be I am just lazy). One of the problems with mathematics courses in Engg when compared to pure science wallahs is the emphasis is on problem solving (irony is unless you study the concept with as much rigour as pure science guys do how is one supposed to apply these to real life problems ?) and at times one wonders as to WTF does the expression signify in the real world . For eg. it was not until I was introduced to control systems and S&S in the third year that I was able to appreciate the significance of concepts like Laplace's and Fourier transforms (introduced in first year of Engg. course ).
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Oh yes the lack of appreciation has to do with lack of access to books with the right explanation. I recall the math book we had been prescribed at the PDC ( just a fancy +2, in the old days in a college environment) level was a formulas only book, maybe like the Theraja type with hardly any explanation. It was a handicap no doubt for deep learning, as access to a library with well stocked good science books was not there and such things are probably non-existent outside of metros even to this day in India.
Raja Bose
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Re: Indian Education System

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SaiK
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SaiK »

So, we know what is required to correct the process, and how we can get the right type of education at the right time. However, we have only pocketed areas where educational institutions does something to a realization of what is product and production, and product engineering merges with the basic theories learned that could apply.

Perhaps, network the educational institutions mandatory by gov regulations (we are still socialistic right?), that extracts the best out in the augmented and extended years of education, where products start making shapes right before they step out of college.

Industrial participation is must. So, what a 4-5 year course becomes a 7- 8 year one, especially the final years (at least final 3 years) the kids get salary for their hard work? They should be also rewarded with prize money (real good amount - at least 3L to 10L, depending on the products) at an early stage.

We will see many Jobs making their Gates open!
joshvajohn
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by joshvajohn »

It is good to hear that TN Govt is ready to introduce the Samacheer syllabus in TN schools. The govt may do revision of the books next year. It is good to note the Jeya's govt take criticism seriously and correct themselves quickly according to popular demand and expectation. She has the quality of becoming next Indian govt leader too!
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by vera_k »

Maharashtra permits private universities
Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Karnataka, Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat are among the states that have already allowed private participation to meet a growing demand for higher education.
Private universities are not required to have reservations for scheduled caste, scheduled tribe and other backward class students, but the law asks them to have an affirmative action programme.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

Bade wrote:Oh yes the lack of appreciation has to do with lack of access to books with the right explanation. I recall the math book we had been prescribed at the PDC ( just a fancy +2, in the old days in a college environment) level was a formulas only book, maybe like the Theraja type with hardly any explanation. It was a handicap no doubt for deep learning, as access to a library with well stocked good science books was not there and such things are probably non-existent outside of metros even to this day in India.

When did you last visit India? These days the books used by Indians are exactly the same as the ones americans use. In fact I buy my text books from India and carry them to US as they are 10 times cheaper in India . (low price editions) . In medicine some of the Indian author texts are quite useful. Many firangi colleagues also asked me to get these for them. My cousin is an electronic engineer . He too has similar experience. He used an Indian published book on digital signal processing.
I agree that most instis are mediocre but not to the extent you imagine. The facilities are similar to most mid tier American instis . You seem to have been out of touch from India for a long , long time.

What we lack is top level research and development institutes.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

I visit India often enough for someone who has been out for two decades. But why get so personal ? Clearly was referring to non-metro setups in places I am familiar with in India. I have family members who teach in the newer colleges sprouting in rural areas and infrastructure is still an impediment, though it is getting better with time. The elite places like IITs and even lesser univs in metros had no such issues even 20 yrs ago.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

Bade wrote:I visit India often enough for someone who has been out for two decades. But why get so personal ? Clearly was referring to non-metro setups in places I am familiar with in India. I have family members who teach in the newer colleges sprouting in rural areas and infrastructure is still an impediment, though it is getting better with time. The elite places like IITs and even lesser univs in metros had no such issues even 20 yrs ago.

Was not getting personal saar . :| Yup , I agree with the newer colleges , especially the private ones sprouting rather frequently. Most of these are just shops to sell degrees , and profitability depends upon cost cutting by not getting the desired equipments . These instis flourish under the aegis of corrupt AICTE or MCI officials . But job potential is extremely low . Most people don't get placed. I believe in the force of market. Eventually they ll be forced to shut shops as people will realise that they 've been duped .

What GOI must understand is that we don't need more engineering seats . I mean we have got close to a million already . Compared to about 400K in the US. We need more quality in low tier instis to make their grads at least employable. And we need superb research instis and a proper environment to make research flourish.
Bade
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Fair enough. Engg degree in India at least these days is just another UG degree. If people have to pay to get a BA/BSc they prefer to get a B.Tech. No harm as such in that, when B.Tech does not imply looking for engg employment only anymore these days. Quality has to be raised, but no one seems to know how. If you look at women's colleges giving the usual UG courses, most are not interested in careers as such but want to have a degree on their CV for the entering the family life market to get a good groom. Education has multiple roles/goals in the Indian context.

There was a CRISIL report which claimed that we need to create an additional 55+ million jobs in the next five years alone, to keep the employed to population ratio at a constant as it is now. So one million is a small number, whatever the degree on the resume.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by vera_k »

I don't agree with a blanket statement that more engineering seats are not needed. There's a big unmet need in some fields primarily because of rapid infrastructure buildout and development. The distribution of seats needs to change from CS/IT to other fields like civil or petro engineering.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Airavat »

SC gives verdict on admission procedure for OBC quota
The bench clarified that the cut-off percentage for OBC candidates should be ten percent below that of the minimum eligibility criteria fixed for general category students and not ten percent below the marks obtained by the last general category student admitted.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by abhishek_sharma »

The Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh felicitating Prof. M.S. Swaminathan, at the Diamond Jubilee Celebrations and 57th Annual Convocation of Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, in West Bengal on August 22, 2011.

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=36184

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The Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh at the Diamond Jubilee Celebrations and 57th Annual Convocation of Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, in West Bengal on August 22, 2011. The Governor of West Bengal, Shri M.K. Narayanan, the Union Finance Minister, Shri Pranab Mukherjee and other dignitaries are also seen.

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=36178

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The Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh felicitated the Principal Scientific Adviser to Govt. of India, Dr. R. Chidambaram, at the Diamond Jubilee Celebrations and 57th Annual Convocation of Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, in West Bengal on August 22, 2011.

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=36183

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The Prime Minister, Dr. Manmohan Singh releasing the book titled ‘Sixty Years IIT Kharagpur in the service of the Nation’, at the Diamond Jubilee Celebrations and 57th Annual Convocation of Indian Institute of Technology Kharagpur, in West Bengal on August 22, 2011.

http://pib.nic.in/release/phsmall.asp?phid=36179
abhishek_sharma
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Allen Newell was one of the founding fathers of Artificial Intelligence. He won the Turing Award (with Herbert Simon) in 1975. He was awarded the National Medal of Science (one of the highest awards given by US govt.) in 1992.

From AI Magazine, 1992.

Image
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

I have a question about the quality of American enginnering grads... How are they? I am not referring to the top 5% which can be compared to our top 5% .. I am talking about your average mango khanlander engineer...

I find that US medical students to be no different from Indian ones...Even though the teaching and faculty standards of Americans are a lot higher than in average Indian med schools... That could probably be because of similar pay scale to med school faculty and private practitioners... Its almost like practise + teaching...

But as far as students are concerned you have you super smart ones...the dumb assess ...the mediocre ones etc... I I mean just like India... some of them are as dumb as the your ST* quota student admitted to medicine even afterdoing poorly in PMT

I am asking this question as their was a debate about the quality of engineers from low tier Indian colleges in various threads...

*Disclaimer-- I am not personally attacking any tribe or caste... Just mentioning the fact that they were selected without merit...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by pgbhat »

gakakkad wrote:I have a question about the quality of American enginnering grads... How are they? I am not referring to the top 5% which can be compared to our top 5% .. I am talking about your average mango khanlander engineer...
Massa mango engineer quality is all over the place. However even in a community college set up the amount of resources and hands on experience available is pretty good. For eg. A remote community college in rural Alabama will have budget to pay for materials to build robots by interested students.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

pgbhat wrote:
gakakkad wrote:I have a question about the quality of American enginnering grads... How are they? I am not referring to the top 5% which can be compared to our top 5% .. I am talking about your average mango khanlander engineer...
Massa mango engineer quality is all over the place. However even in a community college set up the amount of resources and hands on experience available is pretty good. For eg. A remote community college in rural Alabama will have budget to pay for materials to build robots by interested students.
My 2 cents- the average engineering student here will likely be better (prepared) than the average desi engineering student. The yardstick I use for comparison is the performance of the engineer after finishing school and when s/he starts a job. I am not looking at marks/grades got in a school environment. (From your post gakakkad, I get the impression you are assessing the performance in an academic environment and not in a job). Here are the reasons.
i) In the US, engineering is not like 'Injeenearing' in desh where if you are not doing 'injeenearing' or medical (or IT nowadays), you're good for nothing. Students in desh who dont like engineering are forced to study and stick with it. In the US, there are enough job opportunities for non-engineering disciplines *and* those disciplines are respected by the society, so youth who do not like to do engineering will go to other areas like law, liberal arts, biology, zoology, social work, automotive repair, plumbing etc. I realize that things are getting tough lately for the 'soft' areas but this is a very recent trend. So, students who dont like or are not good at engineering have other options. They will just drop out and move on. Natural selection biases the pool towards better-performing students.
ii) Engineering education (like all other educational cirricula here) is focused on not just textbook learning but is actually weighted quite heavily towards applying the learning in the real world. So the graduating student is better prepared for a job. During academics, there is a heavy emphasis on projects and internships. Teachers here have to keep in mind why and how is this useful after the student graduates. In desh, this question is not as important because it is all (mostly) about passing the exams and getting good marks. These marks/grades are important during job interviews (unless the company has its own entrance exams to begin with). The focus is different.
iii) There is not an emphasis on rote learning (mugging, ratta marna etc.). This helps the student to focus on understanding problems and solving them. So, the student thinks differently and this is more in tune with the challenges s/he will face in a job. In a job, there is little need (not zero, but it is not very important) to know things by heart. One is free to refer to any books/notes while doing a job. (Having said this, I am beginning to see the benefits of rote learning- long story).
iv) The point pgbhat brings up above is very major one. Even second-tier and 3rd tier universities have reasonably good facilities, and if there is interest, one can tie up with outside labs for advanced projects. There is a lot of that flexibility. Even high school students work on some fairly sophisticated projects like making robots etc. So, one is not as constrained by the pedigree of the university as in desh.

This is not a commentary on the student. It is a commentary on the society in which the student lives in, and the educational expectation, environment and facilities. If desi students had access to such facilities the same student would come out much further. My 2 cents.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

^^^ I do agree that in medicine , the American curriculum and exam system is far more hands on than the one in India. But peculiarly Indian docs end up much better prepared than their American counterparts. The thing is medical college hospitals in India are overflowing with patients. You don't get to see such number and variety in the American hospitals. Besides in India , medical students and residents can do whatever they want to with the patients. I don't defend this , but in an Indian college patients are guinea pigs.You mess up an appendix operation, no probs...better luck in the next patient..
And the treatment is usually done by residents and interns. That is usually not possible in the US as lots of ethical and legal issues apply. Residents and students have a lot of restrictions . So in the end the Indian student ends up with a lot more treatment experience. That is in spite of the fact that the curriculum is intensely theoretical and the exam system bogus.

Of course such considerations do not apply to engineering. So I do agree that an American engineer from a low-mid tier insti is likely to be better prepared than his Indian counterpart.

One other thing I found is that Indians have a fetish for advanced stuff. And in the process they compromise on their fundamental concepts. Residents will start reading about new drugs still in development stage and start prescribing them as soon as it is released. Indian radiology students often try to play around with stuff like MR spectroscopy before they have fully mastered the basics.This is very counter productive . IMHO the basics are far more important than the new stuff. Even if you look at exams , in US they ll stick to basics. While in India lot more advanced stuff is asked. So people often find themselves confused in later life .

I have heard from my engineering friends that Indian students neglect core programming in c/c++ and try toying around with the advanced languages.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SriKumar »

gakakkad wrote: But peculiarly Indian docs end up much better prepared than their American counterparts. The thing is medical college hospitals in India are overflowing with patients.
This seemed counter-intuitive until you explained it. I have heard from my student friends here who went to India to work at hospitals that they see a lot more diversity of diseases/cases and also a greater degree of progression in the state of the disease (in the US it would likely get detected and treated sooner and not left to progress). But is it not true that the training system is more intense in the US? I understand that before a doctor can practice, s/he has to do an internship (fellowship?) that lasts years and years *after* getting an M.D. whereas in desh, after doing a 1-year house-surgeoncy you can start practicing. I would have thought that the former would be more intense training.
Besides in India , medical students and residents can do whatever they want to with the patients. I don't defend this , but in an Indian college patients are guinea pigs.You mess up an appendix operation, no probs...better luck in the next patient..
Your candor is refreshing, yaar. :)
One other thing I found is that Indians have a fetish for advanced stuff. And in the process they compromise on their fundamental concepts. Residents will start reading about new drugs still in development stage and start prescribing them as soon as it is released. Indian radiology students often try to play around with stuff like MR spectroscopy before they have fully mastered the basics.This is very counter productive . IMHO the basics are far more important than the new stuff. Even if you look at exams , in US they ll stick to basics. While in India lot more advanced stuff is asked. So people often find themselves confused in later life .
Very interesting. I do agree that basics are important, very important. The new student/doctor/engineer would not know any better and may want to focus on the 'latesht teknawlogie'. I find it strange the experienced professors who should know better would set question papers that do not test basics thoroughly.
I have heard from my engineering friends that Indian students neglect core programming in c/c++ and try toying around with the advanced languages.
I cannot speak with any authority but my guess is that in IT-related fields, softwares and related tools change pretty frequently and the job prospects follow the newer softwares So, the student would be similarly motivated to stay with the latest technology rather than worry about older stuff. IMHO only.

You seem to have direct experience with the US education system in medicine. I have a question for you, if you dont mind. In desh, there is a heavy dependence on memorization of information, especially as a student, and in the medical field I think it is more so than in other fields. It the US, there is, overall, less of a dependence on memorization. Do you find medical students in the US are required to do heavy memorization of facts as it happens in India? I am assuming that in medicine one cannot 'get away' easily from that- certainly, doctors would need to keep a lot more facts/data in mind than practitioners in other fields. Is the degree of memorization the same and are American medical students comfortable with it, and if not, how do they tackle it?
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

I have heard from my student friends here who went to India to work at hospitals that they see a lot more diversity of diseases/cases and also a greater degree of progression in the state of the disease (in the US it would likely get detected and treated sooner and not left to progress). But is it not true that the training system is more intense in the US? I understand that before a doctor can practice, s/he has to do an internship (fellowship?) that lasts years and years *after* getting an M.D. whereas in desh, after doing a 1-year house-surgeoncy you can start practicing. I would have thought that the former would be more intense training.
Actually the structure of medical training is very similar everywhere in the world.

Basic medical degree(ug)= 4-7 years . 4 years in the US .(labelled as MD) 5.5 years in India/UK (4.5 years MBBS + 1 year internship ) 7 years in Germany. US is the only that awards the degree without any sort of internship. In other countries(including India,Australia) you can practice after the basic medical degree. The practice is called general/family practice .Of course this is a limited practise where you treat basic ailments. A general practitioner usually can't operate. In US people intending to do general/family practice need to do a special PG . Everywhere in the world (us and India included) specialists need further post grad training.

Post graduate degree-(Called residency) = This lasts 3-5 years after the basic degree. Duration depends upon branches selected. But is more or less uniform through out the world. Branches like internal medicine , general surgery , gynecology ,pediatrics etc

Super- Specialty training- 3-5 years after PG residency. In branches like neurosurgery cardiology , oncology etc.In US it is called fellowship . Sometimes (frequently in the US) fellowship is clubbed with residency to form an integrated programme .eg 6-7 years integrated neurosurgery .

For practical purpose the Indian training is far more intense than the US. It actually can be a torture.What happens is in India is that poorest patients go to medical college hospitals. The volume is enormous. And the number of docs are limited. So residents are badly overworked. But the kind of training that provides is immense. And results can be seen.When they go to the private sector where they have to treat wealthier patients and have better equipment levels , they provide the best care in the world.(the reason why Indian health tourism is booming) I would rather get operated by an Indian surgeon .(as they have operated on 10 times as many cases) Sadly for the US amongst the developed world its healthcare quality is in the bottom. That of course has a lot more to do with interference from insurers and hospital execs than training.
As far as training is concerned a lot can be learned by both countries from each other. Sadly Americans have thrown clinical acumen out of the window and rely too much on investigations. And that is not a phenomenon elsewhere in the developed world. You need a balanced approach. Indians can learn the logical pathophysiological approach from the Americans. Several points from the american UG teaching and exam system can be integrated in India.
I have a question for you, if you dont mind. In desh, there is a heavy dependence on memorization of information, especially as a student, and in the medical field I think it is more so than in other fields. It the US, there is, overall, less of a dependence on memorization. Do you find medical students in the US are required to do heavy memorization of facts as it happens in India? I am assuming that in medicine one cannot 'get away' easily from that- certainly, doctors would need to keep a lot more facts/data in mind than practitioners in other fields. Is the degree of memorization the same and are American medical students comfortable with it, and if not, how do they tackle it?
Contrary to popular perception , medical practice is not all about memory. I agree that in Indian exam system the role of memory is massive. Thats a torture for the best of us (personal pronoun :) ). In US the exam system is not dependant upon memory. Drug doses etc are usually not asked in exam. They in fact discourage over reliance on memory. Of course the basics have to be understood and memorised even . But things liked dosage regimen can always be looked up. That is often encouraged in the US. Everyone carry's a PDA these days. And a lot of things can be stored in one. Before the PDA's arrived pocket books were used.So when in doubt it is always better to confirm rather than make mistakes. In India , memorization is demanded for exam purpose. And due to the fact that everyone in India has mastered the art of cramming people tend to remember more. But most medical students in India do have a PDA/Smart phone these days. And they download everything from the internet. And most top Indian docs too carry IPads these days.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by sourab_c »

Gakakkad,

You forgot to mention the extra 4 years that students in US/Canada spend in an undergraduate degree before they can even apply for an UG MD program. I believe that this extra requirement prepares students a lot better for the intense curriculum that medical education encompasses. This may also be one reason that medical students in India find medical education to be as you describe "torture" because they jump into medicine right after high school without any prior exposure to a post-secondary curriculum. I believe that this post-sec exposure is critical and prepares students to think critically rather than regurgitating everything they learn from the books in their tests.

So, in order to become a MD in US/Canada, it is a total of 4 (UG) + 4 (UG-MD) + 4 (Residency) = 12 years before they can practice compared to 4 years of UG-MD+ Residency = 4-8 years before they can practice in India.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

^^ Their are two views on that- Most American docs are against that. They want the commonwealth type system of direct entry from school. The reason is that an average American is in his mid 30's when he finishes off . And has loads of student debt to pay off (an average $ 150k) , kids to take care off etc. So in the last stages they really feel exhausted . Besides they say that when we wanted to treat people , why did they feed us with physics etc? Actually their high school science curriculum is not as in depth as ours is. For instance most Americans don't learn calculus in school.
In my personal opinion I favour the American approach for the reason that a firm pure science foundation is needed for research. And a few American grads do have a solid base. Even though most entrants these days have non Science majors who have taken the necessary pre medical science subjects. (for eg Major in greek classics but having taking biology ,physics and chemistry as required by MCAT eligibility) . I personally suggest that in India MBBS should be re structured. Lot of useless stuff is taught. Instead a 2 year pre medical foundation course in PCMB should be given to all entrants.

The torture in India is due to high handedness of professors , huge curriculum and over whelming patient load. Sometimes even ragging and harassment .
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by VikramS »

gakkkad:

Completely agree with you. I am married to a family of FMGs and the differences you state are very obvious. The American system produces doctors with a deeper understanding of what is behind things; the Indian system produces doctors with phenomenal clinical skills.

Kind of reminds me of the experience of IIT-trained engineers versus others in the 80s; the common perception among those hiring them was that IIT guys understood a lot but could do very little.

In the US the gap between the incomes of a primary care physician and a specialist is too high. A primary care person spends 4+4+3 = 11 years after school. A specialist may spend 12-15 years. But the extra 1-4 years (which are often paid) often result in an earning potential which scales literally with the number of extra years.

Many specialists work 3-4 days a week, creating an artificial shortage which helps them justify their higher billings. If that gap between the compensation of specialists and primary care MDs can be bought to more reasonable levels, it will knock off a good chunk of physician expenses which are a part of the health-card dilemma. Primary care physicians, who form a bulk of physicians are not exactly over-paid; in fact compared to other professionals they might claim that they are overworked and under-paid.

In almost everything in the US the distribution of the wealth is concentrated too much in the top few percent. That has to change.
gakakkad
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

Agreed about the income gap.. But it is a very difficult problem to solve. Attempts have been made. But without much success . In fact physicians income in general may reduce by a huge margin. Most recent Indian IMG's (especially the specialists) want to go back eventually . Especially if the SGR formula goes through.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

Was not there an NIT like plan to develop national institute of science ?
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