Strategic leadership for the future of India

[Sanku]

I am as proud of the Indian heritage as the next man Jack, but I would like to look at that heritage clinically and not with the dreams of a poet!

That is the only way to look at it.

BT is no hero of mine. If as an Indian I cannot live without fear in a part of a country that is not my ancestral home, then what is India all about? It is as good as Australia!

Wonderfully worded. I agree.

[Rahul Mehta]

Will a strong leadership ever arise in India, if Supreme Court judges and High Court judges continue to be as corrupt as they are now? Because if these judges continue to promote criminals, then good people will never be able to rise in politics, business etc.

If we citizens want good leaders to grow, dont we need to FIRST expel corrupt judges from Supreme Court and High Courts and ensure that coming judges in these courts are non-corrupt?

[brihaspati]

RM,
we need to prove these charges against the SC and HC's. Until that is formally done, what can perhaps be only established is that individual members of the judiciary have been shown to be "corrupt" or proven guilty from time to time.

The essential principle behind what you are saying has basis. But it does not start or end with ensuring an uncorrupt judiciary. If there is an opportunity to be corrupt, that opportunity is going to be utilized by some. The lesser the number of cases the judges get opportunity to try the lesser the opportunity for corruption. Decrease in litigation is a result of a comprehensive drive at improving givernance and depersonalizing as much as possible the basic interactions of the citizen with the rashtra.

For example, land-ownership and claims over ownership are a source of huge amount of litigation. Land legislation is not uniform over India. Inheritance is not uniform over religious and community affiliations thanks to the multiple civil laws. Even the land use and ownership database is not completely digitized. A host of economic and social issues complicate this area. And all of that adds to the confusion that provides for a proliferation of litigation. And therefore more opportunities for corruption.

I am not saying that legal reform along your lines should be thrown away. But it should come as part of a package that looks at the systemic issues comprehensively.

[brihaspati]

NDTV curiously has begun reversing damages on reporting about Chinese incursions etc. They ran a programme about how students at Beijing Uni were taking up Hindi, and Indian classical dance.

What was the sudden need for reversal of position and approach in the "info war" so dramatically? Intelligence reports that the real situation on the "west" is too hot to be suppressed or lessened in importance for long? Pressure from US to come to an understanding on the part of both PRC and India? Preparation for withdrawal from the AFG theatre by the US, and contingency plans about J&K etc to be put in place? Where both PRC and India have to be on their backfoot? Concessions to TSP being considered to which both India and PRC have to sign albeit reluctantly? A whole lot of possibilities with shifting goalposts!

[RayC]

U.S. Policy Toward Afghanistan

http://www.cfr.org/publication/20283/us ... istan.html

Tensions rise over Afghanistan war strategy

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=204947

[brihaspati]

Obama, will retreat from AFG. That the west expects his policies to have severe repercussions is expressed through the declaration of the Nobel Peace Prize. This is a last ditch attempt to stave off the Islamist onslaught without having to do a war. There will be more pressure on India now to give up its nuke capabilities. The tactic is to appease as much as possible the Islamists and provide them with sops and compensations (like India offered on a platter to TSP) at the cost of others. It also means emasculating as much as possible the defensive capabilities of countries like Israel and India. A certain section in the west probably already thinks it is better to compromise now than later. If sacrifice of entities like Israel or India can buy time, then the West can try to recuperate and prepare for a bigger showdown.

The frequency and intensity of the "prophetic visions" and their interpretations appear to be increasing in the Abrahamic circles. Whole regular TV shows and channels are being devoted to discussing end-times and prophecies. They have convinced themselves (or groups behind them want others to think so) that a certain sequence of events need to happen before the messianic return. In this a war of destruction and horrendous casualty, played out essentially in non-Christian lands in the ME and Asia - especially with traumatic destructions in Israel and India, seem to be an essential requirement.

The reactions from GOI and political leadership seems increasingly subdued. We hardly hear comments about foreign affairs, at least in relation to TSP, from the political leadership behind the GOI. What is the voice about these things, from SG (topmost leader of the main party behind the GOI) and RG (the expected future top leader of the main party behind the GOI)? Shouldn't they have thoughts on these issues at least if they try to shift the responsibility under the logic that it belongs to MMS domain to speak about these things?

[brihaspati]

ramanaji - wonderful work for an weekend. Would you like to expand it?

[RayC]

Obama winning the Nobel Prize could also be seen as a ploy to rejuvenate and synergise the white supremacy syndrome in the US by injecting a fear psychosis.

Notwithstanding the fact that Obama is the President of the US, yet the fact that he is Black is never far from the mind of the White population and it is difficult for the white American to reconcile that a Black President could not only win the election, and even before completing 9 months in office, can bag the Nobel Prize which no White President could do! The vitriol generated in the US over Obama winning the Nobel Prize indicates how shell shocked the white American is! Even the part of the US media which supported Obama in the elections is not too happy!

As it is Obama’s ‘socialist’ (an anathema to the Americans) policies is internally not very attractive to the white populace. His appeasement of and even subjugating and compromising American (read Christian) ideals in deference to the Islamic world (the Cairo address and more so, his bowing low to the Saudi satrap [surprisingly, this has annoyed the American more than anything else]) has upset the Americans and it is not confined to the white population alone!

Notwithstanding Obama’s consecration as the first Black President of the US, his job rating has plummeted from the high that he commanded earlier



This rating above still indicates that Obama is not doing too badly so far. However, the point to note is that the demography of the US has changed dramatically.

The Non Hispanic white population is as follows:



The Religion disposition in the US is at this link:
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions.

The popularity rating of Obama may indicate the he is still above water, but it must be noted that this rating is not confined to the votes of the white population and the Jews. The demography has been changing rapidly and so the rating includes these non white and Hispanic people too and they have become a sizeable proportion. Therefore, one cannot state for certain the views of the white and Jew population of the US from these figures.

While it is true that the demography is changing in the US, it is too early to wish away the influence of the Christian Church and the Jews in the US. There has been a silent revival of the Christian faith and the fact that George Bush won two elections on religious rhetoric while waging a war that was becoming increasing unpopular indicates that Christianity is alive and kicking in the US. The Jew influence in politics and finance and that ‘power’ requires no elaboration. Obama won because McCain was lacklustre and he (Obama) promised to ‘bring the boys back home’ sooner than later. Change and Hope fired the tired electorate!

It is also a truism that unless you are a Christian in the US, your chances are slim. Obama understood that in spite of a Muslim father and Bobby Jindal was clever enough to embrace the Catholic faith since that was the majority denomination on this beat! He is clever enough to not even acknowledge his ethnic roots.

Of all the Christian denominations that are on the missionary path to ‘harvest souls’, the most active ones are of US origin, including throwing in pseudo evangelist messiahs like Benny Hinn, who caused a rumpus in Bangalore. Hence, Christian America continues to be sensitive to Christian ideals and Christians causes and will battle on against the advent of other religions within and without the USA. Further, notwithstanding the popular feeling that Americans have given way to materialism and become agnostic, while attendance in Churches may have dropped, it does not indicate that Christian values and fears of Islam have waned in the USA. It is similar to the notion that you are not a Hindu, if you don’t visit regularly a temple or go on a perambulation of the religious sites! Even this widespread notion circulated that the drop in the Church attendance is indicative of people leaving the Christian faith is a subtle way to instil the fear and aggravate it to scare the Christians of being swamped by other non Western faith and changing the ‘American way of life’ (read white European Christian).

Therefore, the Nobel Prize to Obama, as I see it, is a left handed compliment to wake up the western world, ignite the fear of Islam swamping Christendom, ensure Obama gives way to a white President the next time around (having riled the white American), whip up the Americans and to some extent, the Europeans to have a greater resolve to save Christianity from Islam and so on.

Israel will never be forsaken by the US. The Jewish lobby is too ingrained to be toppled. The Jews control the media and the finance – both powerful instruments to keep a government in check.


As far as India is concerned, it is too complicated to comment. We have the tendency to be delusional and wallow in pseudo morality, revel in our ‘glorious’ past, run away from the present and dream of a great future without any basis! And worse is, if some crumbs of praise comes our way, we roll over with total glee and feel we have conquered the world!

I am not being disparaging. I am only worried that we are not gaining ground and instead are taking one step forward and two steps back because of our ingrained ideas and weakness to false praise!

As an End Statement, I may add that Google has it to make us believe that the Arabs (read Islam) are delighted that Obama has won the Nobel Prize! End of Obama in the US and back to a Bush clone the next time around?

[brihaspati]

The "white" Christian "right" pulled out all stops to vote for Obamas opponent - yet electorally they could not defeat Obama. But the white Christians are not in the minority numerically. There is an interesting angle to the "Christian" angle in USA.


“In an ironical reversal of roles,” reports Arthur J. Pais, “priests from India are going out to the West, not so much to spread the faith as priests from the West journeyed to the East to do, but to keep the Church’s institutions going.” He finds “5,000 foreign priests who come on a five-year contract negotiated between bishops in America and their respective countries”. Among them 500 are from India. “Another 250 [Indian] priests are either working for their master’s degree or a Ph.D. and work part-time in churches, hospitals, schools, prisons and rehabilitation centres, offering religious instructions and counselling. Several of them work as chaplains in the American armed forces.” “Most of the Indian nuns here belong to Mother Teresa’s convents, and they work in the slums in the Bronx and in Chicago... They are venturing into areas most Americans would rather ignore.” The author concludes, “Catholicism is still a potent force in developing countries like India while in the more consumerist West its missionary fervour has considerably dimmed. Though Indian priests and nuns may be co-opted to work in the poorer parishes of America, they seem to be doing their bit to keep the religion alive.” [The Sunday Observer, New Delhi, January 16-22, 1994, p 12]

In 1980 the World Christian Encyclopaedia carried out a statistical survey. “Christianity,” it says, “has experienced massive losses in the Western and Communist world over the last 60 years. In Europe and North America, defections from Christianity — converts to other religions or irreligion — are now running at 1,820,500 former Christians a year. This loss is much higher if we consider only church numbers: 2,224,800 a year (6,000 a day). It is even higher if we are speaking only of church attenders: every year some 2,765,100 church attenders in Europe and North America cease to be practising Christians within the 12-month period, an average loss of 7,600 every day...At the global level these losses from Christianity... outweigh the gains in the Third World.” [World Christian Encyclopaedia : A Comparative Study of Churches and Religions in the World, AD 1900-2000, edited by David B Barret, OUP, 1982, p 7. ]

[svinayak]

Bji,
These are all old news. Home churches are increasing in US and they are making up for the loss.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G12_Vision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_group

[brihaspati]

But they still were not able to stop Obama. In EU, which I can see in first person, the affiliations are decreasing conspicuously. Almost every month I see charity appeals by Islamics to convert/renovate old Churches that they have bought, into Mosques.

Maybe I should quote actual data that I have, but will have to check for copyright or quotability. My impression, is that in reality it is going down again after peaking in late 90's to early 2000's.

[RayC]

The Americans are no fools.

The white Christian lobby pulled out all the stops in the last US Presidential elections, but the crunch was ‘bringing the boys home’. That struck a chord closer to the US heart than the ‘difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom’.

Priest from India and nuns from India are going to the West, of indeed they are going because of poverty. I wonder how many have actually seen a Christian priest lifestyle. While such a priest does live in austere means, yet his food and lodging is good and far superior to the impoverished Pandit! The Indian nuns are used as labour that is not available so cheap in the West! Further, Indians are enamoured by the West and so priest would be equally enthused. Why blame them?

I visited the Mother House when I had to organise the funeral of Mother Teresa. The Indian nuns were slogging it out, while the European were lolling around. I was quite curt with the Belgian midget of a priest at breakfast with Indian nuns dishing out ham bacon and chicken for the bloke! Christianity has gone a sea change!

Now why should Indian priest come ‘on contract’? Isn’t priesthood in Christianity a ‘calling’ from God? Money is not a part of the ‘calling’. It is the call of the conscience and it should be free!

The loss of Christians is not to only other religions. The Afro Americans are going back to their roots i.e. Islam, but then there are the different denominations like the Scientology and Unification Church of Moon! And then there are the wild sects.

Islam is on the march and of that there is no doubt.

My link to the Tablighi would indicate how they are stealthily conquering the world. I do not deny their power!

[brihaspati]

Acharya-ji,
I think I can quote and refer to the ARIS estimates (I checked to see that my other database comes under confidentiality clauses):
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2 ... ARIS_N.htm


2008 estimate (in millions)/ Estimated % of population 1990/Estimated % of population 2008/Change
Catholic 57.2 26.2% 25.1% -1.1%
Baptist 36.1 19.3% 15.8% -3.5%
No religion 34.2 8.2% 15.0% 6.8%
Christian, generic 32.4 14.8% 14.2% -0.6%
Mainline Protestant 29.4 18.7% 12.9% -5.8%
Don't Know/Refused 11.8 2.3% 5.2% 2.9%
Pentecostal/Charismatic 8.0 3.2% 3.5% 0.3%
Protestant denominations 7.1 2.6% 3.1% 0.5%
Mormon/latter-day Saints 3.2 1.4% 1.4% 0.0%
New movements (such as Wiccan), other religions 2.8 0.8% 1.2% 0.4%
Jewish 2.7 1.8% 1.2% -0.6%
Eastern religions 2.0 0.4% 0.9% 0.5%
Muslim 1.4 0.3% 0.6% 0.3%

Total loss by mainline Christians is of the order of 11%. This is not compensated by 0.8% growth in Pentecostal+Protestant denominations.

[svinayak]

Acharya-ji,

Total loss by mainline Christians is of the order of 11%. This is not compensated by 0.8% growth in Pentecostal+Protestant denominations.

To which religion is this loss. Is it no religion or just Christians. Even Americans have learned to have multiple identities and multiple religions just as Asians have learnt for centuries.
This is a new trend and need to find out if this is an anomaly.

[brihaspati]

Acharya-ji,
I only added up the % change for Christian denominations overall. I think the negative growth of around 10% is explained in a large part by claim of "non-religion" and "non-commited". It is also possible that this includes belief in faiths/sects/religions that are not yet socially acceptable or carries social stigma. So these were simply not owned up. But a conscious distinction was made that even given the option they chose not to identify themselves as belonging to any Christian sect.

[RayC]

The Place of Christianity in U.S. Culture

The influence of traditional Christianity, as reflected in the activities and practices of most Christian churches, is diminishing in our society. The survey results confirm what most churches have experienced in the last two decades. While some mega-churches and meta-churches are visible and influential in our society, overall involvement in and attendance at Christian religious services has diminished. My research shows that church attendance in the U.S. is as low as 15-20% of the entire population on any given Sunday, and in some areas of the country is likely even lower. The problem is not that Christians are transferring to another (non-Christian) religion as much as it is that traditional versions of Christianity are being rejected. A better headline than that which appears above (and on the report) may be that the “traditional version of Christianity is no longer the default religion in the U.S.” The population is increasingly unchurched as traditional versions of Christianity fall out of favor. That the population is increasingly unchurched should not, however, be identified as lack of religious fervor or interest. Many are opting for personalized or individualized religions which pick and choose beliefs and activities, and do not necessary include a shared worship experience in a public setting. Many of these unchurched persons still identify with Christianity, but not with the traditional version of Christianity.

Conclusion: the place Christianity occupies in our society is less and less identified with traditional Christian churches (based on involvement and attendance) which are being rejected in favor of individualized religious beliefs and practices chosen from a potpourri of options which often includes non-Christian religious practices or beliefs.

Excerpt from:

http://www.bobyoungresources.com/articl ... ligion.pdf

[brihaspati]

RayC,
Chidambaram has declared again that all "parties" will be involved in renewed discussions on J&K including "separatists". And RG has declared that we are giving too much importance to Pak. Indias's status is already apparently so high that it is way ahead in terms of global impact and hence the argument appears to be that we need not give much imprtance to what Pak does etc. (NDTV news extract).

I would see my concerns expressed many times before about the eventual aligning of GOI policy towards what the west wants to impose. Since we are worried about possible faith affiliations and their effects on thinking within India, should we begin to explore faith/ideological/cultural affiliation profiles of our leadership? Or should we assume that by the very fact that they have been voted to power they are "secular" and their actions are not even remotely coloured by their affiliations?

[RayC]

RayC,
Chidambaram has declared again that all "parties" will be involved in renewed discussions on J&K including "separatists". And RG has declared that we are giving too much importance to Pak. Indias's status is already apparently so high that it is way ahead in terms of global impact and hence the argument appears to be that we need not give much imprtance to what Pak does etc. (NDTV news extract).

I would see my concerns expressed many times before about the eventual aligning of GOI policy towards what the west wants to impose. Since we are worried about possible faith affiliations and their effects on thinking within India, should we begin to explore faith/ideological/cultural affiliation profiles of our leadership? Or should we assume that by the very fact that they have been voted to power they are "secular" and their actions are not even remotely coloured by their affiliations?

An interesting issue.

However, what I see of politicians is that the most important issue is saving their bacon!

Everything else is secondary!

[Rahul Mehta]

.... should we begin to explore faith/ideological/cultural affiliation profiles of our leadership? Or should we assume that by the very fact that they have been voted to power they are "secular" and their actions are not even remotely coloured by their affiliations?

We MUST explore their religious and cultural affiliations. And we should also explore their financial affiliations, and financial affiliations of the mediamen whose support they take.

[brihaspati]

I guess, statements from the two - RG and PC need to be tracked. No one else is talking even remotely about it. The Congress spokespersons like Sibal and co do not really matter in terms of indications of long term policy. It will be important to note how these two twist and turn. The drama around J&K will probably take most interesting turns very soon.

[RayC]

RayC,
Chidambaram has declared again that all "parties" will be involved in renewed discussions on J&K including "separatists". And RG has declared that we are giving too much importance to Pak. Indias's status is already apparently so high that it is way ahead in terms of global impact and hence the argument appears to be that we need not give much imprtance to what Pak does etc. (NDTV news extract).

I would see my concerns expressed many times before about the eventual aligning of GOI policy towards what the west wants to impose. Since we are worried about possible faith affiliations and their effects on thinking within India, should we begin to explore faith/ideological/cultural affiliation profiles of our leadership? Or should we assume that by the very fact that they have been voted to power they are "secular" and their actions are not even remotely coloured by their affiliations?

I remembered you when this was in the news.

[brihaspati]

RayC,
do you see here a pointer to what we have been pondering on - the role of UK and the West? That they will now try to gain this region for themselves?

X-posting from J&K thread:

shravan wrote

Kashmiri demonstrators urge Pakistan to leave Kashmir

Kashmiri nationalist parties who demand unification and independence of Jammu and Kashmir held a picketing outside Pakistani High Commission in London.

Despite the wet weather a large number of Kashmiris gathered outside the High Commission and shouted pro Kashmir slogans; and demanded that Pakistan must not annex Gilgit Baltistan as it will lead to serious problems for Pakistan.

People of Jammu and Kashmir hitherto have been keen in speaking against Indian role in Jammu and Kashmir and having demonstrations against India, but it looks tide has turned.

People of Jammu and Kashmir have seen true intentions of Pakistan and feel no hesitation in standing outside High Commission of Pakistan and shout 'Pakistani forces out of Kashmir'. 'Pakistan ka jo yaar hai - ghadaar hai ghadaar hai, Ilaaq ka jo yaar hai Ghadaar hai, meaning who so ever is friend of Pakistan is a traitor....who so ever is for accession is a traitor.

Demonstrators also shouted against India and demanded that India should also leave Kashmir; and that Jammu and Kashmir should become an independent country. It was a big demonstration if we compare it with demonstrations of Kashmiri and Pakistani held in London over the past years; and people travelled from various towns to express their anger and disapproval of what Pakistan was doing in Gilgit and Baltistan and 'Pakistani Occupied Kashmir'.

It was interesting to note that some pro Pakistan Kashmiris were also present to show their support for this picketing, and for the first time they spoke out against Pakistani policies with regard to Kashmir. They said they were deeply disappointed with policies of Pakistan; and wanted to show their anger and frustration.

Demonstrators shouted Zardari jee ye Kashmiriyoun ke saath Ghadaari hai, meaning what you are doing is treason to Kashmiris. They also said Geelani jee hamain ye ghulami qabool nei.... Bacha bacha kat maray ga Kashmir sooba nei baney ga, meaning Prime Minister Gilani we reject this slavery - reference to a new package on Gilgit and Baltistan. They said every Kashmiri child will die but Kashmir won't become a province of Pakistan.

Demonstrators got really angry when Pakistani High Commission even refused to accept a petition from respected Kashmiri leaders representing various political parties. 'This is like rubbing salt in our wounds', said Dr Shabir Choudhry, Spokesman of Kashmir National Party.

He said, 'We used our democratic right and like civilised people did not use foul language against Pakistan or threw stones or tomatoes at the High Commission. We were here to express our disappointment and anger; and least we expected was that someone from the High Commission come out and receive our petition and pass it on to President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani that they also know what our concerns were'.

Abbas Butt, Chair of KNP said, 'The attitude of the Pakistani officials was very annoying and this was a slap on our faces. It was a common decency that they should come out and meet the Kashmiri leaders. It is their arrogance and wrong policies which is turning Kashmiris against them. Today even pro Pakistan Kashmirirs have come out to protest against their policies in this cold weather'. He said, 'Pakistani officials treat Kashmiris as slaves of medieval times who do not deserve basic humane rights, but they are wrong we will fight back and get our rights'.

JKNLF President Mahmood Kashmiri expressed his deep anger on attitude of Pakistani High Commission officials. He said, 'They should have enough decency to come out and meet us. They have shown that they are worse than Indian officials. At least Indian officials respectfully take petition from us when we hold demonstrations outside the Indian High Commission'. He said, 'Our struggle is against wrong policies of Pakistan and not against the State of Pakistan, but you can see after refusing to accept petition some Kashmiris have shouted slogans against Pakistan. This is no way to win minds and hearts of people', he added.

When the delegation that went to hand - in the petition came back and explained what had happened, some Kashmiris in frustration and anger shouted anti Pakistan slogans. Leaders acted quickly and requested them not say anything against state of Pakistan, however still some shouted, 'Kashmiriyoun ka barra qatil Pakistan and chhotta qatil Hindustan'- meaning, 'Pakistan is a big murderer of Kashmiris and India is a small murder'. Also they said, 'Kashmiriyoun ki Azad ke do shaitan eik India doosra Pakistan'- meaning 'Two Satans are against Kashmir's independence one is India the other is Pakistan'.

Tahir Bostan, President of JKPNP also expressed his anger against the attitude and arrogance of the Pakistani officials. He said, 'This attitude is insulting. This shows what respect Pakistani officials have for Kashmiri leaders'. He said, 'Our struggle against wrong policies of Pakistan will continue, and we will start a campaign against Pakistan, and will hold a series of demonstrations outside different Pakistani missions'.

The Jammu Kashmir National Liberation Front, Jammu and Kashmir National Awami Party, Kashmir Freedom Movement, Jammu Kashmir Plebiscite Front, Kashmir Liberation Organisation, Association of British Kashmiris, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (Y),Jammu Kashmir Peoples National Party and the Kashmir National Party were among the parties that were present at the demonstration. (ANI)

[negi]

^ Unfortunately its gonna end up as a stalemate i.e. ball will be in India's court. TSP will be happy to oblige and say "We are ready to give up on POK provided India too relinquishes all her rights to J&K and facilitate re-unification".

US and munna will then turn towards India and we will end up running in closed circles ; people talk about 'poverty' ,'illiteracy' and other zillion things when one dares to talk about nukes or action after 26/11 but I don't see how pumping in crores of tax payers money into the valley in name of preserving Kashmiriyat and appeasing a bunch of terrorists (JKLF ,Geelani and Co) is part of nation building.

Btw if GOI had given even a fraction of that aid to NE states we would not be facing naxal/Maoist threat in the region.

[brihaspati]

For some reason, all the clamour of war and conflict appears to have suddenly gone very quiet in the three "fronts" of India - the NE-AP front in the east, the Naxal front in the south and centre, and the J&K in the north. There are no more "grim" and "confident" faces of leaders oozing determination about facing up to the challenge. The media appears to have voluntarily or otherwise under a cue, gone into firefighting mode with the ojective of bringing down anticipatory and CT temperatures.

I was anticipating probability of activation of the "western" front - west -south west. Can we track for any note of "ancticipation" or "anxiety" from GOI, or the regional political leadership?

[rkirankr]

For once a nice article from Sheela Bhatt
http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/oct ... rnance.htm

I think the populace in general at the moment just wants the powers that be to leave it alone. So they are going for known devil. Her description of Sonia is good.Do we see an altenate leadership who can enthuse the nation , in the Horizon?

[RayC]

RayC,
do you see here a pointer to what we have been pondering on - the role of UK and the West? That they will now try to gain this region for themselves?

That is why I read your posts with great interest, even though I don't agree.

Wait. Have patience!

UK is desperate to be reckonable!

[brihaspati]

rkirankr wrote
I think the populace in general at the moment just wants the powers that be to leave it alone. So they are going for known devil. Her description of Sonia is good.Do we see an altenate leadership who can enthuse the nation , in the Horizon?

I think it is better to explore the following hypothesis (this was my take from before the LS elections) :

(a) the Congress being the longest in power with admin structure handed over intact by the Brits in 1947, there is the possibility of huge investments - in capital, human resources, and political-economic strategic interests - to allow the Congress to "fail" in holding on to rashtryia power. Such investments can be long term, and from both external and internal sources.

(b) the Congress leadership could be under pressure to remove all possible opposition in the north-east-and centre. The fertile river plains and the financial and trade centres connected to this belt in a wide arc ranging from Maharashtra, Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, UP, Bihar, Bengal, Assam - needs to be homogenized. This homogenization to try and remove any ideology, political force or alignment, that could replace the carefully nurtured ideological vacuum.

The LOCO (leadership of Congress) need not be aware of this if it is part of a much longer term externally coordinated plan - to keep the agricultural and populous "north" deliberately devoid of any identity that could make it difficult to use for barter with the two forces of greatest concern to the "west". The Islamists based in Pakistan, and imperialist China.

(c) This was my main reason behind characterizing the "Gangetic plains" as part of this wide "arc" that surrounds and isolates the peninsular part, as having lost the powers of resistance to eventual external overrunning. In ideological, political and military sense. It may be necessary for this region to go through such a trauma before the hold of the machinery put in place to enthrall the population of these regions gets revealed for its ulterior purpose, and thereby loses its power.

[Atri]

(b) the Congress leadership could be under pressure to remove all possible opposition in the north-east-and centre. The fertile river plains and the financial and trade centres connected to this belt in a wide arc ranging from Maharashtra, Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, UP, Bihar, Bengal, Assam - needs to be homogenized. This homogenization to try and remove any ideology, political force or alignment, that could replace the carefully nurtured ideological vacuum.

The LOCO (leadership of Congress) need not be aware of this if it is part of a much longer term externally coordinated plan - to keep the agricultural and populous "north" deliberately devoid of any identity that could make it difficult to use for barter with the two forces of greatest concern to the "west". The Islamists based in Pakistan, and imperialist China.

Power and Permanence

All men of power want more power. However, there is a catch in this statement. The key question to be asked here is what is the character of the particular man of power under consideration? How content or otherwise he is when he consolidates enough power to satisfy his immediate issues? It has to be understood that time and power are in direct relation. The longer one stays in power, more the conslidated power he possesses and higher are his capabilities of projecting his power over larger area for longer time. However, even after sufficient consolidation of power in space and time, how willing is one person to project his power beyond his domains depends upon the degree of mercantile and mercenary character in his personality.

Brihaspati ji,

Congress shows a very high mercantile character.. They tend to buy off the local satraps, instead of completely eliminating them. The homogenization which you are referring to requires a complete consolidation of power and ruthless removal of all rebels. No one has done it in Northern plains in past millenia. The local power-centres are too strong and decentralized to bring about any classical uniformity in that region, in absence of any external stimulus. Do you think INC under Sonia and Rahul will go for complete and total conquest?

[Rahul Mehta]

Do you think INC under Sonia and Rahul will go for complete and total conquest?

Congress is now controlled by MNCs/Christianists, and Sonia/Rahul and Mahatma Manmohan are mere figureheads aka puppets.

An analogy would be Indian kings after 1857. All had become British puppets and were figureheads only. Britishers kept them only because they saw that keeping them makes Indians feel that they are being ruled by Indians and not outsiders, and so resistance weakens. But no king was in-charge.

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[Sanku]

The homogenization which you are referring to requires a complete consolidation of power and ruthless removal of all rebels. No one has done it in Northern plains in past millenia. The local power-centres are too strong and decentralized to bring about any classical uniformity in that region, in absence of any external stimulus.

I would like to say that the above is what I have been saying about the North Indian plains for a long time. Granted there are issues but there is also a deeply entrenched behavior of resistance.

I do not see that going away. Weakened yes. Gone away no.

Let us not forget the Ram Mandir issue is still very much alive, it may be on slow because those spearheading it could not take it to the logical conclusion, however the feeling that fueled the fire are still quite alive.

The English before 1857 thought that North was pacified, they again thought the same in 1900s.

I agree with Brihspati when he says we are just in such a phase -- only the fire needs be lit, and it may not be a total trauma that is needed, even a mild one would do to revive the fire.

[RayC]

The election results should be an indicator as to where the voters i.e. India is going.

People are getting tired of the one way street!

I am also surprised that the Congress is romping home!

Any guess, why?

[Bharath.Subramanyam]

Though not directly related to Strategic leadership, I am posting this as RayC has asked the question "Why congress is romping home?"


Somebody in twitter world has done a decent analysis of Haryana results for BJP & its future work there:

BJP Haryana results - analysis http://is.gd/4wLe5

http://indianwellwisher.wordpress.com/2 ... a-results/


I think if Mayawati takes the Dalit vote from congress in many states, it will be big blow to congress. The reason the English media & most of the media controlled by Congress fighting Mayawati is because they understand the danger from Mayawati. That is why monuments building by mayawati is an issue or bad news about mayawati is given so much highlight

[Sanku]

The election results should be an indicator as to where the voters i.e. India is going.

People are getting tired of the one way street!

I am also surprised that the Congress is romping home!

Any guess, why?

I thought there was a moderator ban on discussing elections this time around? Anyway, the elections in India do not necessarily reflect any long term political mood, it is usually a short term immediate factors of groupings, local leadership etc.

Esp when there are no major big ticket issues in the poll.

[RayC]

Is there a ban?

I seem to have missed it.

Could you point it out so that I can apologise for failing to notice this?

Notwithstanding, the country, nationalistic that it still is, is wondering at the Alice in Blunderland!

[Sanku]

Is there a ban?

I seem to have missed it.

Could you point it out so that I can apologise for failing to notice this?

This was discussed on Nukkad in the General discussion forum.

[amit]

I think if Mayawati takes the Dalit vote from congress in many states, it will be big blow to congress. The reason the English media & most of the media controlled by Congress fighting Mayawati is because they understand the danger from Mayawati. That is why monuments building by mayawati is an issue or bad news about mayawati is given so much highlight

So are you trying to say that it's ethically wrong to criticise the Rs 2,600 crores or so that Mayawati is spending on building statutes, while the state is reeling from drought and economic downturn? Why don't you do a thought experiment and try to calculate how many kilometers of roads connecting inaccessible villages in which many Dalits live could have been built with that kind of money.

And please try to come up with something better than the Dalit vote catcher adage. Mayawati outside her state has been an absolute disaster in terms of vote catching.

[Rahul Mehta]

The election results should be an indicator as to where the voters i.e. India is going.

People are getting tired of the one way street!

I am also surprised that the Congress is romping home!

Any guess, why?

We need a sperate PERMANENT thread for election related discussion.

Pls restore the LS election thread with title as "Election results".

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[brihaspati]

Chiron-ji and Sanku-ji,

Please note that I do not welcome the possible trauma on the northern arc. I just feel that to a certain extent the civilizational aspect there will be forced to retreat before external expansion. Such an expansion need not start in a classical black and white formal invasion. It can be a gradual softening of reaction towards the fundamental ideologies, forces and motivations that are behind such expansion. A similar process preceded the formal advent of the Turko-Afghans.

Congress I consider is more a prisoner of its own history. Its dependencies, and ideological baggage comes from the particular transitional feature of the 1947 handover of power. This historical baggage has forced certain types of ideological commitments and understandings with external scenario and powers as well as internal ones.

The electoral results should not be given a very long term interpretation. Assuming that the electoral votes represents actual inclinations, it simply shows that the long Congress rule and dominance of the northern arc has created an ideological vacuum in its own image. Under such circumstances, people take decisions on a day-to-day basis. They lose the ability to see beyond the day as they have no larger vision or values to check offered temporary solutions against. They therefore also fail to recognize that such short term adhoc solutions could actually be severely damaging for their own future as well as that of their next generations over the longer term.

They only begin to see the reality of their choices when it is quite late. So this is why I think that the strength to hit back and revive is not entirely gone yet from the northern arc. But the forces representing such views are small and weaker in numerical strength compared to the "everything goes other than what we label as one particular religion that we have banned from politics". And a general progress of inimical forces will force these smaller groups to consolidate and maybe even move out of the area to where they regroup or organize better. Without interference from those who might want extend their lives for one more day by betraying such "revivalists".

[ramana]

Was there any role of the Hindu traders in building up the Mughals in Rajasthan? I dont see how the Mughals financed their wars, after all the entire North India and parts of Deccan were already despoiled and looted of their wealth in a short period of two hundred and fifty years. We see the traders again in the post Mughal period financing the Maratha- Rajput wars.

[Atri]

Was there any role of the Hindu traders in building up the Mughals in Rajasthan? I dont see how the Mughals financed their wars, after all the entire North India and parts of Deccan were already despoiled and looted of their wealth in a short period of two hundred and fifty years. We see the traders again in the post Mughal period financing the Maratha- Rajput wars.

http://kalchiron.blogspot.com/2009/08/s ... -army.html

Yes, the traders from Awadh and Agra and Delhi were benefitted the most. The economy of Bengal suffered the most during Aurangzeb's Deccan conquest.. It is wonderful to know Aurangzeb could fund such massive for for 27 years at a stretch.. imagine the strength of Indian economy...