Bharat Rakshak

shyamd wrote: Mate, the problem is not Israel as a country, it is Israel in the present state of form, which everyone including the US administration seems to have a problem with.

Yeah, no result for the Palestinians after all these years, and people want to give someone else a try. You know there is an argument that Israel wanted these extremists in and was helping Hamas covertly during its inception. They wanted the extremists in power, to show the whole world that they are surrounded by these extremists.

Since when does he convince Palestenians? You probably mean TSP. Its not just about convincing your own population who probably are on your own frequency, but people outside - the neutral guys, public opinion in other countries. I don't think you understand how far ISI actually penetrates its propaganda in western states.

Yeah, they lost, but they are also ashamed that something like that was planned. But these are more Paki's who live away from the propaganda - i.e. abroad.

No Mark Regev and IDF lady just come on Al Jazeera just to convince the westerners watching Al Jazeera lol!!! Thats the funniest thing I have heard!

Nah, that is what the Israeli propaganda wants you to believe. Just watch Ross Kemp on Gaza - they'll tell you about what Gazans really think (considering many of them lived and worked/working in Israel)

Because its worth throwing in the dustbin, at best.

Hehehe. Please do explain. I want to hear this one.

A_Gupta wrote:

shyamd wrote: You know there is an argument that Israel wanted these extremists in and was helping Hamas covertly during its inception. They wanted the extremists in power, to show the whole world that they are surrounded by these extremists.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006 ... of-israel/
Hamas, Son of Israel

Read the whole thing.

“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”

If India had supported fundamentalist jihadi groups in Pakistan and is now screaming about Pakistani terrorism, then and only then would India be Israel.

shyamd wrote: Lol! They won't be ashamed of being Paki, but they certainly are ashamed of what happened in kargil.

brihaspati wrote:
You freely attribute statements to me that I have never mentioned - like killing all Muslims, etc. Is that a technique you learned from the Muslim Brotherhood or from your Hamas source? So in your faith system, "jews" have already committed all the atrocities that Islamists have perpetrated?

I think Indians and Israelites should begin to thank everyone ranged along the side of Hamas and of the believers of Islamic subjugation of all non-Muslims (Hamas charter and various statements by leading lights of Hamas) for their humanitarian contributions to the cause of human civilization. Once and if genocide of the Jews takes place, and the eastern Mediterranean falls to Islamists - each and every force - from individuals to organizations to groups to parties to nations - which have even remotely favoured Hamas and the various related Jihadis should be remembered for their actions.They should be in the future treated exactly as the Jihadists themselves - which means whatever is applied to Jihadists should be applied to their non-Muslim collaborators. If it is pardon for their crassness so be it! But treat them as collaborators and participants, and never let it be forgotten in future as long as their descendants live or die out.

If WB and Gaza cannot survive on their own, and Hamas does not want to erase Israel, why are they fighting for independence? Does it not imply then that the formal declarations of Hamas need not actually mean their real intent and purpose? That Hamas is then actually deceptive?

So whoever has problems with MB is not because MB is in the wrong in any way, but it is always the "other" who is at fault?

Again a continuation of the same mindset - if others have any problem with MB or Hamas, it is the "other's" fault!

Incorrect, they also made the same exception for the Baathists of Syria.

MB's slogan as far as I know, contains the expression "Jihad is our way" - and it does not specifically characterize this Jihad as non-military Jihad.

"General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America" from MB: "The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."

Given your tendency to see no fault with MB or its essentially Palestinian wing Hamas, I am guessing that you will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda.

Given your statement that the two places they have - WB+Gaza is unsustainable as independent entities, they cannot have any hope or purpose to do otherwise! Wow - how does Hamas express that kicking desire to you!

MB has supposedly a program to subvert, and penetrate civilian institutions or society in countries where non-Muslims are dominant numerically or are in state power to create sympathetic voices or spokespersons. This whole discussion is getting more and more interesting. It would be interesting to know how many non-Muslim Indians feel the same soft spot for MB and Hamas as you do. Thanks! I was talking this evening with someone who specializes on the Hamas. What she said about the impact assessment of MB and Hamas seduction on the subcontinent now appears so relevant. I read up on your earlier posts on this also. Thanks for drawing my attention to this weak link. The more chinks in the Indian armour exposed - the better.

Sanku wrote: Sorry, thats semantics, we dont hate you per se but we would be happy if you changed a little, like give up everything, reduce your land to two tiny villages, send back all Israeli to Russia, and return to your Dhimmi status.

No one else has a problem with Israel in the current form, not India, not Russia and certainly not US. They have full relations and no sanctions whatsoever. So please dont expect any of us to buy this.

Since capturing East Jerusalem in the 1967 Six Day War, Israel has insisted that Jerusalem is its eternal and indivisible capital. The United States does not agree with this position and believes the permanent status of Jerusalem is still subject to negotiations. This is based on the UN's 1947 Partition plan for Palestine, which called for separate international administration of Jerusalem.

The Declaration of Principles and subsequent Oslo Accords signed between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization in September 1993 similarly state that it is a subject for permanent status negotiations. U.S. Administrations have consistently indicated, by keeping the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv, that Jerusalem's status is unresolved.

All recent U.S. administrations have disapproved of Israel's settlement activity as prejudging final status and possibly preventing the emergence of a contiguous Palestinian state.

Yes and there is a argument that 9/11 was a Jews conspiracy.

You have side stepped entirely, the matter at hand has nothing to do with "western states" I am only talking about the Arab-Palestiane-Pakistani population showing a equal fervor for anti-Semitic rhetoric and acting on that basis.

I think the actions speak quite eloquently thank you.

First full acceptance of current situation formally, next no agression pact and clear cut tone down of hamas for 5 years and other tactics. If any Arab or wannabe Arab state plays up the coalition of pro Israel west Asians subdue that. Publicly.

Then we can talk about meaningful talks.

I think the debate is heading for the crux of the issue, which is should Israel have existed there. They came aboard ships because they had no where else to go - despite offers to allocate a jewish country in Australia/Uganda and some other places which the jews refused

shyamd wrote: I think the debate is heading for the crux of the issue, which is should Israel have existed there.

No one else has a problem with Israel in the current form, not India, not Russia and certainly not US. They have full relations and no sanctions whatsoever. So please dont expect any of us to buy this.

Urmm.... Okay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2 ... #Jerusalem

Israel has no diplomatic relations with 38 states, 20 of them members of the 22-member Arab League. Some of the countries, with which Israel has no diplomatic relations, accept Israeli passports and acknowledge other Israeli marks of sovereignty. Period of former relations marked in brackets.

LOL! Sir, no offence but you are living in a dream world. There goes your theory of "certainly not US" - please don't expect us to buy your manufactured lies.

Yes and there is a argument that 9/11 was a Jews conspiracy.

It just proves you haven't read much on Israel's history - it is actually quite well known that Israel wanted extremists in power.

No, you completely missed the point I was trying to make. Please read what I said again - it was about utilising the media, not Zaid Hamid convincing palestinians.

Lol! So now all Palestinians support Hamas now. hehe

First full acceptance of current situation formally, next no agression pact and clear cut tone down of hamas for 5 years and other tactics. If any Arab or wannabe Arab state plays up the coalition of pro Israel west Asians subdue that. Publicly.

Then we can talk about meaningful talks.

Lol! Full acceptance in current situation! LOL! So basically arabs have to give up everything, Israel won't do anything - just goes to prove my point

shyamd wrote:Okay, should Israel have existed in that location is the problem isn't it? - sure its the location of the jewish religious sites and historic israel, but was it fair to displace the people living there? That is the crux of the issue isn't it?

From the sound of things, you blame the people living there in 1947 for why jews were dispersed to different locations.

Sanku wrote: Absolutely, the debate is the crux of the issue for Palestinans Arabs and Anti-Semtics, they deny the right of Israel to exist.

There is no getting across this issue.

Wiki? And how does what ever you posted take away from the above? which was to remind you

They have full relations and no sanctions whatsoever.

Forget the issue of settlement. First accept Israel as a state. I am not asking for accepting whole of Israel. Can the Arabs do that first?

Israel has no diplomatic relations with 38 states, 20 of them members of the 22-member Arab League. Some of the countries, with which Israel has no diplomatic relations, accept Israeli passports and acknowledge other Israeli marks of sovereignty. Period of former relations marked in brackets.

You take a minor disagreement on the state of settlements and east Jerusalem as "acceptance of Israel"

Please show me Hamas accepting Israel as state.

Please tell me how my statement was wrong. It certainly was correct. There is a difference between accepting Israel, and accepting the current settlements and administrative status of Jerusalem.

Yeah right.... Sure, its all a Zionist conspiracy only. They even got Hamas to fire rockets, all their fault.

Which is all chai biskoot I am ok with Chai biskoot as long as people understand its all pointless anyway.

Palestinians in general support whichever is the most extereme group against Israel, have always done and continue to do so.

First full acceptance of current situation formally, next no agression pact and clear cut tone down of hamas for 5 years and other tactics. If any Arab or wannabe Arab state plays up the coalition of pro Israel west Asians subdue that. Publicly.

Then we can talk about meaningful talks.

Lol! Full acceptance in current situation! LOL! So basically arabs have to give up everything, Israel won't do anything - just goes to prove my point

So accepting Israel as state is "giving up everything?" An eloquent testimony on the Arab mindset. Accept Israel, abjure violence and restore trade. Then talk, using Pali civil noncooperation as pressure point if needed -- that is giving up everything?

RamaY wrote:Temple Mount must go to Israel. Islam has to learn to respect other religions and faiths. Desecration cannot be an acceptable practice to overwrite local religious sites/symbols.

brihaspati wrote:shyamd,

so you also dabble in history?!!!! Now if we look at every "before", we may find someone else living there compared to "after". By that logic, west Europeans have a claim on Palestinian land too, because they lived there and ran a kingdom there for almost 200 years before the Turks and Kurds displaced them. Why not allow the Kurds to carve out a territory there - since they definitely lived there and ran a state there for some time around Salahuddin!

Why stop even at that stage - since for you every Islamic claim is always justified and true (they never ever lie or deceive in your representation) - the Islamic narratives themselves describe with great glee how they displaced the Jews from the oases townships of northern Arabian peninsula. Surely then the Jews have a claim on the north of Saudi Arabia?

I did not hint anything. But the vagueness of the expressions turns out to have been useful.

So now we know that you have regular contact with at least one Hamas functionary who is on-spot and high up enough within the hierarchy to give you quality intelligence.

We also have come to know that you are in intimate contact with MB, and have access to a relative of the head of the MB in Syria.

I also see that all this is happening from Stockholm! This is an important insight into how orgs like the MB are spreading, and how they are finding spokespersons among non-Muslims, and what are the coutries or frameworks that are providing the protective mechanisms (knowingly or unknowingly) for the spread of their ideology.

Sanku ji and others, shyamd has already provided us with the deeply illuminating concept of being "brainwashed" by organizations and "nations", and I think we can see what has happened here. He is avoiding the crucial question about the real aims of the Hamas given that his panegyrics of the Hamas throw up contradictory motivations and justifications.

Those things are "mincing" words for him. He has carefully ignored the crucial element in the formal declaration of MB that "jihad is our way" does not specify that violent jihad is being excluded.

By default Jihad includes violent Jihad, and a careful counting of the instances and context of Jihad in any of the more popular or standard Hadith collections overwhelmingly associate Jihad with violence.

Shyamd even is ready to raise the question of whether Israel has a right to exist or not.

It is a good thing that at least one blindly devoted justifier of Islamism has come forward and exposed himself.

I think it helps the rest of us to be more alert about how and where the Jihadis (MB is self declared Jihadi by their slogan) are trying to enter Indian society and create spaces of sympathy and support for their long term expansionist agenda.

Thanks again Shyamd

for adding this aspect of Islamist propaganda aimed at Indians on my watchlist. I have already put forward my concerns to a policy research group that studies such things for Europe. Hopefully we will be able to gather sufficient material for this before our next meeting. Over the last two days, I have had some revealing discussions with "experts", and one of them has also sent me on-going material on how Islamists are trying to spread their networks in northern Europe. Apparently, expats from countries crucial to Islamist interests who are in NE for professional or academic/studies reasons, are good targets.

I think that the essential points of debate between you and me are quite clear, and we will never agree on the future course of action.

I am confident that long term, Islamism will be removed from earth.

You always equate "removal" with "genocide" because that is what Islamism understands. Its different for me.

Moreover, in the future Indians will support Israel unequivocally, for the very reasons that you support MB or Hamas.

Okay, should Israel have existed in that location is the problem isn't it? - sure its the location of the jewish religious sites and historic israel, but was it fair to displace the people living there? That is the crux of the issue isn't it?

From the sound of things, you blame the people living there in 1947 for why jews were dispersed to different locations.

Yeah, thats why they talk about Greater zion which stretches upto the euphrates. So that means I have to support every Israeli/Zionist claim (they never lie or deceive your representation)?

shyamd wrote:

Sanku wrote: Absolutely, the debate is the crux of the issue for Palestinans Arabs and Anti-Semtics, they deny the right of Israel to exist.

There is no getting across this issue.

They deny it in its present form. No getting across this issue. Nothing but Israeli propaganda to skew the debate that way.

The following UN member states do not recognize Israel as a state:[11]Afghanistan,[12] Algeria,[13] Bahrain,[14] Bangladesh,[15] Chad,[16] Cuba, Indonesia, Iran,[17] Iraq,[18] Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya,[19] Malaysia, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, United Arab Emirates[20] and Yemen.

Lol, my point was does the US recognise Israel in its present shape or form? NO is the answer.

Lol! They have done! What do you think the peace offer was for? - it explicitly accepted UN Resolution 242 i.e. israel under 1967 borders.

Carl_T wrote:The real solution is for the arab states to accept palestinian refugees just like Israel did with jewish refugees. Big chance, I know.

Pranav wrote:Israel Palestine is a complicated issue..

brihaspati wrote: Sanku ji and others, shyamd has already provided us with the deeply illuminating concept of being "brainwashed" by organizations and "nations", and I think we can see what has happened here.

Iran on Monday announced it was sending two ship loads of aid into Gaza later this week and asserted that its Navy was ready to escort vessels wanting to deliver humanitarian assistance to residents of the besieged coastal strip.

“If the respected leader of the revolution gives an order in this regard, the Revolutionary Guards’ naval forces will take a practical step using their capability and equipment to escort flotillas to Gaza,” Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei's advisor in the IRGC naval wing, Ali Shirazi, told Mehr news agency on Sunday.

Analysts say dispatch of Iranian ships to Gaza, especially under a naval escort, is bound to surge tensions between Iran and Israel and rivet international attention to this explosive development.

Urmm... So, is it fair for the Palestinians who lived there at the time to be kicked out? Answer that question because thats the crux of the issue. So, by this definition, if I built a house and lets say after 10 years, I sold it. I can reclaim it after 40 years if I have nowhere to live (despite the government offering to give me housing)? thanks man, I wish that was possible.

Quote:
Why stop even at that stage - since for you every Islamic claim is always justified and true (they never ever lie or deceive in your representation) - the Islamic narratives themselves describe with great glee how they displaced the Jews from the oases townships of northern Arabian peninsula. Surely then the Jews have a claim on the north of Saudi Arabia?

Yeah, thats why they talk about Greater zion which stretches upto the euphrates. So that means I have to support every Israeli/Zionist claim (they never lie or deceive your representation)?

Quote:
Those things are "mincing" words for him. He has carefully ignored the crucial element in the formal declaration of MB that "jihad is our way" does not specify that violent jihad is being excluded.

Okay, so lets just check if its true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".[2] Since its inception in 1928 the movement has officially opposed violent means to achieve its goals,[3][4] with some exceptions such as in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or to overthrow secular Ba'athist rule in Syria (see Hama massacre).

Further states:
Its position on violence has also caused disputes within the movement, with advocates of violence at times breaking away to form groups such as the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (The Islamic Group) and Al Takfir Wal Hijra (Excommunication and Migration).[14]

However, once Al Qaeda was fully organized, they denounced the Muslim Brotherhood's reform through nonviolence and accused them of "betraying the cause of Islam and abandoning their 'jihad' in favour of forming political parties and supporting modern state institutions".[17][18]

So Jihad is our way - oh are you still using that "apparent" reference to MB from the US which in the end conceded "However, none of these documents cited any quotes or materials from the Muslim Brotherhood to support the said allegations." How convenient to miss out.

The general goals and strategic plans of the MB are only found in Arabic documents. One for Europe called "The Project" was found in 2001 in Switzerland, another for North America was found in 2005 called the "General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America."[25] An evaluation of this Memorandum was made for the US-Congress and for the Pentagon.[26] Their influence is fast growing, especially in Europe, but not easy to trace while the active members have to keep their membership secret.

One citation from the document "General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America"[27] makes the objectives of the MB clear: "The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."
[edit] Main Activity-plan

The main goals on mid-term as approved by the Executive office and the Shura Council are formulated in a 5-year action plan derived from transcripts:[28]
[edit] Primary goals

* reinstatement of the caliphate and reunite the "dar el Islam."
* Strengthening the internal structure
* Administrative discipline
* Recruitment and settlement of the Dawa'a
* Energizing the organisations work
* Energizing political work fronts (e.g. in civil political organisations)

[edit] Secondary goals

* Finance and Investment
* Foreign relations
* Reviving Woman's activity
* Political awareness to the members of the Group
* Securing the group (To find out if they are being monitored, and if, how they can get rid of them)
* Dawa'ah (the lecture/speech of religion)
* Media (influencing of and infiltration in the media)
* Taking advantage of human potentials (e.g. infiltration in education, civil organisations)

Quote:
By default Jihad includes violent Jihad, and a careful counting of the instances and context of Jihad in any of the more popular or standard Hadith collections overwhelmingly associate Jihad with violence.

Wow, so you now tell muslims what to believe. Excellent.

Surya wrote:
The Israelis bought land of the arabs initially - but the fighting did not start till the Arabs started attacking them. Once that happened - it becomes a mess.

Its not like the Israelis captured all this in 47.

Each Arab attack led to a riposte with the Arabs loosing land.

So we are down to a fundamental question what do you expect the israelis to do? Give up everything and go to an island in the sea??

The real start of a solution is the merger of jordan with west bank to create a viable palestinian state. gaza can fold back into Egypt and any fellow who wants a Palestinian Identity can always move to the newly created palestine out of Jordan and West bank.

"Islam … Advocates Jihad as the Only Means for Setting the Ummah's Situation Aright"

In a sermon, Badi' called upon Muslim leaders to pursue the way of jihad: "In Islam, a leader is granted lofty status due to his important position in the service of his nation... but this is on the condition that he act in justice, responsibility, and good faith toward his people... Do the leaders of the Ummah need to be reminded that Islam obligates them to thoroughly prepare the Ummah to respond to the offensives it faces, one after another without abatement? Do the leaders of the Ummah need to be reminded that its nations are prey to occupation and hegemony [and are pawns] in a disgraceful game, which is part of the American-Zionist plan and which degrades us on all fronts? Do the leaders of the Ummah need help comprehending that it is their duty to stand behind the Al-Aqsa Mosque and to defend the Islamic holy places, before it is too late?...
[Now exactly what constitutes "offence" against Islam? Any criticism? Verbal opposition? Right to object to Islamic practises found unacceptable by a non-Muslim community? ]
[...]
It is within the ability of the leaders of 'an Ummah designated by Allah for mightiness,' to rescue from the Zionists' jails the female Muslim prisoners who are screaming, crying out for someone to put an end to their humiliation...

"Muslim leaders, Islam, to which you belong, advocates jihad as the only means for setting the Ummah's situation aright, as Allah says: 'O you believers! When you are told to go forth in Allah's way, why should you incline heavily to earth? Are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter?' [Koran 9:38] Our revival, majesty, and glory depend on the return to righteousness, which will only be achieved through resistance and the support of [resistance] in every way – with money, arms, information, and self[-sacrifice]..."

Revoke the Camp David Accords

"It is your obligation to stop the absurd negotiations, whether direct or indirect, and to support all forms of resistance for the sake of liberating every occupied piece of land in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, and all [other] parts of our Muslim world. The sources of your authority, as all religious scholars have agreed, are the Koran and the Sunna, and not U.N. resolutions or the dictates of the Zionists or Americans. This can be achieved if you declare the Palestine cause and the causes of the [other] occupied Islamic nations your primary concern. You must stand behind your free peoples and their various institutions in their repeated calls for boycotts, an end to normalization, and support for the resistance and its representatives... You must revoke all the agreements of capitulation.... especially the Camp David Accords... which go against the Egyptian constitution and U.N. resolutions, and do not therefore obligate Egyptian senior officials..."[2]

In an interview for the Muslim Brotherhood's official website, Badi' said: "We believe that the way to resolve the Palestinian problem is through resistance, and that there can be no [concessions] regarding the Palestinians' rights vis-à-vis Jerusalem, the borders, and the right of return..."[3] In another sermon, Badi' made clear that armed resistance is legitimate: "There is nothing for the Palestinians, the Arabs, or the Muslim Ummah as a whole but resistance by all legitimate means, and this includes armed resistance. This is the most effective way of dealing with the Zionist tyranny that is supported or silently tolerated by the West and the [rest of] the world."[4]

"The Prophet Muhammad brought us Tidings that a Decisive War would Break Out Between the Jews and the Muslims, and the Muslims and Islam would Emerge Victorious"

In a televised interview,[5] Badi' explained that the Muslim Brotherhood's crest of two swords and a Koran was chosen by the organization's founder, Hassan Al-Bana, as a symbol of jihad against the Zionists in Palestine and the British in Egypt, and that it continued to represent the struggle against anyone who threatened Islam. Badi' stressed that the Muslim Brotherhood is not a violent organization – that its members would not take up arms against other Muslims or against non-combatants, but only against the enemies of Allah, as they did when the movement took part in the defense of Palestine in the 1948 war. He added: "We will continue to raise the banner of jihad – two swords and a Koran – as long as the Zionists raise their flag, with two blue stripes to represent their so-called state [reaching] from the Nile to the Euphrates. And the [Muslim] brotherhood will continue to view the Jews and Zionists as their first and foremost enemies."[6]
[He now includes not only Zionists but also Jews as enemies. Neither does he consider them unique as enemies - just teh first and foremost among others ]

In one of his weekly sermons, Badi' even called for the abrogation of the peace agreement between Egypt and Israel: "Did the wars with the Zionists end, as Sadat said when he declared in the Zionist Knesset, 'Tell your children that the October War was the last war?' Did the peace agreement realize the hopes of the Ummah or was it a foul and counterfeit peace based on concessions? Would revising or even nullifying the agreement be tantamount to declaring war? After all, the Zionist entity violated all of its commitments and never honored a single agreement, yet [nobody has accused it of] declaring war...
[...]

In another sermon, Badi' said: "...Fighting for it and defending it is an obligation, and abandoning it is a sin. Gestures of kindness toward the Zionists and their allies, and maintaining relations with them are [tantamount to] a war against Allah, His religion, and the Muslims... Jihad for the restoration of Palestine and Al-Aqsa is an individual duty incumbent upon every Muslim. Everyone is required to defend the holy places – and especially Jerusalem – and to protect them...."

The sermon continued: "The Prophet Muhammad brought us the tidings that a decisive war would break out between the Jews and the Muslims, and that the Muslims and Islam would emerge victorious. This prophecy is what gives us hope. Thus said the Prophet Muhammad [in a hadith]: 'Before Judgment Day arrives, the Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them, until the Jews hide behind stones and trees. The stones or the trees will say: 'Oh Muslim! Oh servant of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him' – except for the Gharqad tree [which will not betray Jews who hide behind it], for it is the tree of the Jews.' Therefore, we say that Israel is bound for perdition, whereas Al-Aqsa will remain as long as the world endures..."[8]

"The Hour is Near when [We will] Rid the Ummah of this Foreign Body [Israel] that has been Malevolently Planted in Its Midst"

Badi' continued in this vein in another Friday sermon: "The truth of the matter is that the Zionists are too wretched and weak to be an invincible power as they, or the defeatist in spirit among us, are trying to claim. For the honorable Koran described these cowards clearly: 'Ignominy shall be their portion wherever they are found, unless [they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from men' [Koran 3:112]... The Zionists' [current] superiority is temporary and an anomaly. Left to themselves, without the 'rope from men,' they would return to the baseness and wretchedness that is part of their nature. They have not defeated our Ummah thanks to any inherent strength of their own, and they would not succeed [at all] were it not for our weakness and laxity...

"What has been done, and is still being done to the Zionist enemy by the [spiritual] descendents of [Hassan] Al-Bana [founder of the Muslim Brotherhood] and of [famous Palestinian fighters 'Izz Al-Din] Al-Qassam, [Ahmad] Yassin, and ['Abd Al-'Aziz] Al-Rantisi, and by all the pure and righteous resistance forces, is one of the most important signs that [the Zionists'] superiority is ending, and that the claims about the invincible strength of the Zionist entity are false...

"There is no doubt that the dawn of victory is coming, and that the hour is near when [we will] rid the Ummah of this foreign body that has been malevolently planted in its midst... [especially] since [the events in] South Lebanon and Gaza have revealed the Zionist tiger to be a paper tiger. But we must... support the suicide operations of the young jihadists in Palestine, attacks that have cause the Zionists to quake in fear and lose sleep, until their hearts have melted with fright. Behold, the Zionists are retreating, and the truth is pressing on... It is a holy duty to support the citizens of Jerusalem with money, equipment, and in any [other] way, [but] not through normalization with the Zionist enemy or attempts to grovel to it..."[9]

Surya wrote: Err lets not bring the extreme lunatic fringe to be representative of Israel.

This lunatic fringe which wantes greater israel - does not even recognise the State of Israel - only a divine power.

If the Arabs vanish tomorrow - the secular Israelis have to deal with these nut jobs.

ramana wrote:Brihaspatiji, What the Islamist loss to Eurpoean Colonial powers did was to bring back the worst of Islamism that had been suppresed during the march in time. As Islam conquered new areas, it lost most of its unsavory practices in order to retain the conquests.
I do not deny that what you quote is inherent in Islam but in the long centuries it was suppressed and a moderation was underway. This moderation got defeated along with political power and the so called reversal is really a reaction to this defeat.

Sanku wrote: Sir, they have NO diplomatic links whatsoever with Israel, call for death of Jews and destruction of Israel and regular intervals, have trade sanctions and restrictions on movement of people.

This is not lack acceptance in current form, this lack of acceptance in ANY form.

At an airport news conference after his return, Mr. Rabin said he had gone to Muscat, the capital of Oman, at the invitation of the country's ruler, Sultan Qabus bin Said. "The purpose was to strengthen, to give backing for the continuation of the peace process," Mr. Rabin said.......

"Another Arab state in another part of the Arab world has granted de facto recognition to Israel," Mr. Sheves said. "The code that an Israeli Prime Minister cannot visit an Arab state that has not signed a peace treaty was broken."

Qatari foreign minister says his country may establish official relations with Jerusalem before establishment of a Palestinian state
Attila Somfalvi, New York
Published: 09.15.05, 20:41 / Israel News
Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom has met with Qatari Foreign Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jasam al-Ta'ani, at the U.N. headquarters in New York.

Qatar said Thursday that it is contemplating the establishment of open diplomatic relations with Israel before the establishment of a Palestinian state.

The Gulf country's stance is different to that of Pakistan, which has said that while it is interested in developing relations with Israel, is holding off on a formal relationship until a Palestinian state comes into existence.

Shalom meets with his Qatari counterpart (Photo: Shahar Azran)

Israeli diplomatic sources have said the meeting, which was filmed and photographed, expresses a wish to advance relations between the two countries, and represents a "psychological breakthrough."
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In the course of the meeting, Shalom said "for two years now, I have been meeting continuously with Arab leaders in secret. I very much hope that we will take a step forward."

Yes it does, and you are severly challenged in your basic understanding of international relations.

Does India recognize China? Yes

Does is accept ALL CHINESE TERRITORIAL CLAIMS? No

Yeah, some peace deal. We will fight with you to kill you, but after we get our asses handed back to us, we want you to return the land we lost as well.

Shyamd -- give up -- you are clearly too besotted by the Arab position to see the truth -- that Arab attitude towards Israel is
1) We want to kill you all by force and throw you into sea
2) Since we are too useless to do that you keep defeating us, we pretend to hide behind international opinion.
3) But under no cost will we deal with you as equals, as in equal states talking to each other.

That is it -- and given their past bloodthirsty, anti-semtic, barbaric history, the LEAST Arabs can do is

1) recognize Israel as a state now
2) agree to abjure violence as a means for settlement
3) discuss peacefully the solution.

I see you find these three very basic conditions difficult to fathom -- I understand -- given that your friends are people whose credo in life is "no Israel" its not tough to see why you feel that way.

brihaspati wrote:Urmm... So, is it fair for the Palestinians who lived there at the time to be kicked out? Answer that question because thats the crux of the issue. So, by this definition, if I built a house and lets say after 10 years, I sold it. I can reclaim it after 40 years if I have nowhere to live (despite the government offering to give me housing)? thanks man, I wish that was possible.

Quote:
Why stop even at that stage - since for you every Islamic claim is always justified and true (they never ever lie or deceive in your representation) - the Islamic narratives themselves describe with great glee how they displaced the Jews from the oases townships of northern Arabian peninsula. Surely then the Jews have a claim on the north of Saudi Arabia?

Yeah, thats why they talk about Greater zion which stretches upto the euphrates. So that means I have to support every Israeli/Zionist claim (they never lie or deceive your representation)?

Who really sold the land to the Palestinians? For your comparison, then, are you saying that the Israelis "sold" the rights to their land to the "Palestinians"?

"Gov" offering housing!!! which gov offered an alternative homeland to the Jews?

I have not quoted Jewish or Judaic sources. The claims about ethnic cleansing of Jews of the northern parts of the peninsula is laid out in Tabari, Ishaq, Bukhari - solid Islamic narratives, do you want me to quote from there?

I actually quoted very briefly from material forwarded to me and not from wiki. Sicne you are so concerned about not quoting more, lets have it from wiki again :

The general goals and strategic plans of the MB are only found in Arabic documents. One for Europe called "The Project" was found in 2001 in Switzerland, another for North America was found in 2005 called the "General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America."[25] An evaluation of this Memorandum was made for the US-Congress and for the Pentagon.[26] Their influence is fast growing, especially in Europe, but not easy to trace while the active members have to keep their membership secret.

I believe Wiki refers to the govrenment transcript submission/exhibit linked to reference item 28 on the wiki page. The pdf file of the transcript does mention Muslim Brotherhood. Of course, it is up to the "believers" to take this as a fabrication or not.

Quote:
By default Jihad includes violent Jihad, and a careful counting of the instances and context of Jihad in any of the more popular or standard Hadith collections overwhelmingly associate Jihad with violence.

Wow, so you now tell muslims what to believe. Excellent.

I do not tell Muslims anything to believe (at least not yet). I can provide the major interpretations and statements about Jihad from the narratives and Islamic law interpreters themselves.

Surya wrote:Ok shyam so now we are getting somewhere

i agree about 67 borders but the Arabs also want "right to return'.

shyamd wrote
Didn't the christians expel the jews first in israel? Then the Babylonians conquered Judah - expelled them to babylon. Then went to Roman rule - Byzantine - Persians (fought together with the Jews and then expelled the jews) - Arab rule (jewish population dwindled even further due to taxation) - Crusaders (killed more jews left or sold them as slaves) - Muslim army's back (give jews some freedom, so some return) - Ottomon (slowly more jews come from russia/eastern europe) - British.

Okay, so who kicked the Israeli's out? there was a lot of people responsible for it - so you want to make history right by kicking out the people who lived there during 1948? Answer that for me.

I am trying to say, I owned land, kicked out for whatever reason, house is sold on to numerous people over the years, after 80 years, I decide to come back(because of my personal circumstances) and say I used to live there, get out of my property. Is that fair to the guy who bought the house to be kicked out after many years and confined to one small room out of the house?