Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 06 May 2010 20:04

Imam, journalist handed over to Haqqani group

Asian Tigers have handed over kidnapped Colonel Imam and British journalist Asad Qureshi to Sirajuddin Haqqani group, one of the main Taliban group, SAMAA learnt Thursday.

Both would be sent to their homes, sources disclosed.

Sources told that Maulana Sami-ul Haq and Mulla Umar have played a crucial role in the release of both men.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 May 2010 20:10

AjayKK wrote:Maroof Raza on talks with Pakistan. Maybe, it’s time we insisted on the army’s inclusion at bilateral talks.

I like Maroof Raza and heard him say this on TV a few days ago. The day he said it I was in full agreement with him (and Parthasarathy, who was also on TV).

But a day later - on BRF I suddenly saw the wisdom of talking to Gilani. Especially of the talks are being held under US pressure. If India wants to indulge in a meaningless cosmetic sham (of talks) the person to talk to is Gilani.

It is great to get Gilani to promise that there will be no more terrorism, and great to promise Gilani the world in exchange. All he has to do is stop terrorism, and Cashmere will be put in an envelope and slipped into his pocket. It's simple.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 May 2010 20:14

The first question in his interview that Hamid Mir of Geo TV's Capital Talk had for Pakistani Foreign Minister Mehmood Qureshi was - will Pakistan find acceptable a harsh sentence for Kasab?

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 06 May 2010 20:31

The 'daddy cool' has been located, and as per CNN news he has been questioned by both
TSP and unkil agents. You can run but you can't hide.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 May 2010 20:42

Miranda Worked!
The bizarre criticism of the Faisal Shahzad interrogation.
By Emily Bazelon
Posted Wednesday, May 5, 2010, at 4:24 PM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2253056/
Faisal Shahzad
The case of Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square bombing suspect, is a spectacularly bad test case for arguing against the Miranda warning. But don't take my word for it. Listen to Glenn Beck, suddenly turned constitutional scholar: "We do not shred the Constitution when it's popular. We do the right thing," he said. Also, "How is it that saying a citizen should have their rights read to them … is controversial?"

This is always the correct position—and it's especially so in the Shahzad case. Miranda worked! Law enforcement officials can invoke a public safety exception and delay reading a suspect his rights to get information that would save lives. In Shahzad's case, the FBI invoked the public safety exception. The agency called in its crack interrogation team, asked Shahzad questions with no Miranda warning, and reaped what the FBI says was "valuable intelligence and evidence." Then Shahzad was read his rights. And lo and behold, he waived them and kept talking.
But none of this has stopped Sens. John McCain, who once sponsored laws to prevent torture, and Christopher Bond, the ranking Republican on the Senate intelligence committee, from railing against Miranda. "We've got to be far less interested in protecting the privacy rights of these terrorists than in collecting information that may lead us to details of broader schemes to carry out attacks in the United States," Bond said. "When we detain terrorism suspects, our top priority should be finding out what intelligence they have that could prevent future attacks and save American lives," McCain said. "Our priority should not be telling them they have a right to remain silent."

By all accounts, however, the FBI did have its priorities—and McCain's and Bond's—in order. It invoked the public safety exception. The facts don't line up at all well with the senators' reflexive tough-guy posturing. And yet the Republicans have to posture anyway. And the Washington Post editorial page (isn't it supposed to be calmer and wiser?) has to join them, asking: "How long was Mr. Shahzad questioned before he was read his Miranda rights? And what triggered the Justice Department's decision to suspend the 'ticking time bomb' exception in case law that gives law enforcement officers an opportunity to gather information before advising a suspect of his right to remain silent?"

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 May 2010 20:47

A_Gupta wrote: Which goras?

Many. One of the most pre-eminent among the foreign policy elite, the guy who first hob-knobbed with AfPak terrorists who now haunt India: Zbignief Brizinsky. In a book, actually interview with him and Brent Scrowcroft by David Ignatius of WP, Zbig clearly says India is an arftifical state (with so many languages and ethnicities glued together) and it is unclear whether in its current form, many northern states will be with India. He further goes on to add that as Indian people are more economically empowered the fisssures will only be exaggarated as people become more politically conscious. He argues that India is not a good partner for US, and both argue that by giving India a nuke deal which TSP is so upset about, it has undercut India's ineterests. Just recently, another Harvard prof was interviewed on rediff said India is a "flailing state" if not a "failing state". My prediction is that unless India evolves a cohesive national identity, the US gameplan of rendering the entire region into a loose "South asian" federation at each other's throats but dependent on US for security and other sustenence is inexorable. And IMO, MMS shares this "vision". As Venkat said, US support to this abomination called TSP despites its diabolical crimes is proof of US intentions.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 May 2010 21:07

A_Gupta wrote:The first question in his interview that Hamid Mir of Geo TV's Capital Talk had for Pakistani Foreign Minister Mehmood Qureshi was - will Pakistan find acceptable a harsh sentence for Kasab?

"South Asians" in India are alreadr running scared that TSP's name will be tarnished:

Baying for Qasab's blood also neatly dovetails into the unabashed anti-Pakistan jingoism which some networks revel in.

India is not supposed to say anthing about the sponsore of Qasab. India mujst follow the western scripted narrative that terrorists attacking India are from Mars and they pose a threat to both India & TSP, and both must behave like good boys, play kirket with each other and do God's duty as dictated by the whites.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 06 May 2010 21:20

A Gupta,
I was explaining US 'frustrations' which was one of your questions.
2)'Artificial' in the context of Cashmere not in the sense Punjab or UP or Maharashtra is going to secede.Even in Cashmere,there is better appreciation of Indias position.
3)The gora view has definitely evolved.It was definitely very hostile among Brits and extreme right wing Americans .But definitely Americans from the earliest times both democrat and republican there have been elite sympathetic to the Indian democracy.Particularly among genuine liberals,there has been appreciation of the Indian experiment.George Bush Sr. assured Mrs Gandhi that US was not against India.While the compulsions of realpolitik did mean great support to pak,there has been support to Indian democracy as well.Today there is far greater appreciation of India after Mandal,coalition politics and liberalisation.I will definitely qualify my assertion and agree that has there been steady evolution for the better.

CRamS,
Cannot agree with you.There are hawks in GOTUS,frustration US is mired in Afghanistan etc but in the spirit of TSP thread,I will do downhill skiing that while old prejudices in Dupleecity die hard,there has been change . A couple of Faisal dudes will come in handy for our cause.

But at the same time there is danger that MMS will be asked to forgive and accomodate Kayani(like the way UPA has 'forgiven' IT minister Raja) as if TSP is a part of India.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 06 May 2010 21:41

From Time.com

Beyond Times Square: The Growing Threat from Pakistan
By BOBBY GHOSH Bobby Ghosh
1 hr 17 mins ago

.Not long ago, a bomb attack on New York City's Times Square would have had intelligence officials and terrorism experts checking off the usual suspects among the sources of terrorist plots against the U.S. - Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq. But these days, says a top counterterrorism official, "when I hear of a terrorist plot, I can count back from 10, and before I get to zero, someone will bring up the P word."

That's P for Pakistan.

Over the past couple of years, more plots against U.S. targets have emanated from or had a strong connection to Pakistan than any other country. Says the counterterrorism official, who was briefed on the hunt for the Times Square bomber but is not authorized to speak with the media: "It was totally predictable that the smoking Pathfinder would lead to someone with Pakistan in his past." (See the making of a Mumbai terrorist.)

Nor would it come as a surprise if it were revealed that Faisal Shahzad, who has claimed to investigators that he was working alone, was in fact linked to an ever lengthening list of extremist groups operating in Pakistan's northern wilds. These groups, whose attacks had long been confined to the Indian subcontinent, are now emerging as a deadly threat to the U.S. and its allies. As the core of al-Qaeda, led by Osama bin Laden, wilts under the constant pounding from the CIA's Predator drone campaign, Pakistani groups are mounting operations deep into the West.
..............................

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 May 2010 21:42

Zbigniew Brzezinski, "A Geostrategy for Eurasia," Foreign Affairs, 76:5, September/October 1997.
http://www.comw.org/pda/fulltext/9709brzezinski.html

Although currently a passive player, India has an important role in the Eurasian scene. Without the political support it received from the Soviet Union, India is contained geopolitically by Chinese-Pakistani cooperation. The survival of Indian democracy is in itself important, in that it refutes better than volumes of academic debate the notion that human rights and democracy are exclusively Western. India proves that antidemocratic "Asian values," propagated by spokesmen from Singapore to China, are simply antidemocratic and not necessarily Asian. India's failure would be a blow to democracy's prospects in Asia and would remove a power that contributes to Asia's balance, especially given China's rise. India should be engaged in discussions pertaining to regional stability, not to mention the promotion of more bilateral connections between the American and Indian defense communities.

PS: This is becoming rapidly off-topic for the TSP thread. Should we move it to some other thread, and which one?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 May 2010 21:45

^^^ Actually even 9/11 had Paki fingerprints allover but was overlooked in the 'past is past' Bin Powell miasma.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 May 2010 21:52

Couple of things I have noted:
1. A lot of Indian view points are being aired in massa media all of a sudden. I think the tap was opened a few months ago after the CIA agents were killed in that suicide bomb blast in afghanistan.
I think this is due to two reasons. One of which seems to be an impatience with the policy where pakistan is mollycoddled by the GOTUS. The media know that Indians will have some very unflattering things to say about Pakistan, and so Indian strategic experts get airtime.
The second is that the media at some level understand s the amount of deep shit the AF-Pak policy is in. And are finally turning to the Indians for an alternate viewpoint.

2. What rankles is that the bomb in Times Square didn't even go off, (Thank god they detected the bomb and diffused it in time!), not one person was killed and Pakistan will hand over the parents, cousins, in-laws and goat of the bomber, who it is possible are not involved.
Compare that with 180 odd people killed and hundreds injured in mumbai 26/11, and the only person sentenced is that Kasab, who would have been killed on that day itself. The remaining real culprits are still eating biriyani in Pakistan, and living it up. All the GoI can do is send in dossier after dossier, and on every meet the PM has to ask them to ensure that atleast the trail hearings are held at regular intervals.

archan · Post by **archan** » 06 May 2010 21:56

^^ yep, thats where having balls can be useful.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 May 2010 22:06

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100506/ts_ ... imessquare

KARACHI/BEIJING (Reuters) – Pakistan said on Thursday it was unlikely a Pakistani-American arrested over a failed plot to bomb New York's Times Square had acted alone.Investigations in Pakistan had uncovered possible links between the suspect, Faisal Shahzad, 30, the Pakistani Taliban and a Kashmiri Islamist group, officials and news reports said.
"According to the available information he says it was his individual act," Interior Minister Rehman Malik told Reuters in an interview in Beijing. "I would not tend to believe that."The Pakistani Taliban Sunday claimed responsibility for Saturday's attempted car bomb attack, but New York police said they had no evidence to support the claim. Taliban spokesman Azam Tariq Thursday denied links with Shahzad."We have nothing to do with him," Tariq told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed location. "We never imparted any training to him."
"The people who have been picked up do have links to Jaish and have also been in touch with Shahzad during his visits here," a Pakistani security official in Karachi told Reuters.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 May 2010 22:25

But Faisal Shahzad Haq doesn't fit the J-e-M profile. He fits the L-e-T profile and mission. L-e-T(Hafiz Saeed) had presence in US and Australia and has recruits from those countries. J-e-M(Mohd. Azhar) functions and responsibilities are Kashmir. L-e-T is all India and even the world. It has global ambitions and footprint.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 May 2010 22:31

Gagan wrote:
Compare that with 180 odd people killed and hundreds injured in mumbai 26/11, and the only person sentenced is that Kasab, who would have been killed on that day itself. The remaining real culprits are still eating biriyani in Pakistan, and living it up. All the GoI can do is send in dossier after dossier, and on every meet the PM has to ask them to ensure that atleast the trail hearings are held at regular intervals.

This shows that India Pakistan state relations are being controlled by DC
DC is in charge just by total control over another weak state such as Pakistan.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 May 2010 22:33

A-Gupta continue in US-PRC thread or the Geopolitics thread....

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 May 2010 22:51

archan wrote:^^ yep, thats where having balls can be useful.

It has nothing to do with balls, you can't compare how Pak behaves with the US to the way it behaves with India. No matter how many balls India has, TSP will not act the same way. I don't think the relationships are comparable...

Someone voiced the opinion that this attack was a veiled "warning" to the US in order to gain TSP more leverage in Washington. It does make some sense but if that were the case would TSP act ss fast to arrest everyone they could find? Or are they genuinely scared?....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 May 2010 23:07

Please take geopolitical disussions to the appropriate thread.

Meanwhile have seen other reports on this subject?

Nightwatch 5/5/10

Pakistan: The Pakistani government is considering extending the tenure period of Chief of Army Staff General Kayani by five years, the Tribune reported 5 May, citing unnamed Defence sources. Other options being considered are giving a one year extension to Kayani or introducing the position of Chief of Defense Staff, as a device for keeping Kayani on active duty. The sources said the Ministry of Defence has not yet forwarded a summary to the prime minister.

Comment: The civilian government under Prime Minister Gilani owes a great deal to General Kayani who has backed the restoration of elected civilian government; put the Army back in barracks politically, and focused on restoring the military capabilities that President General Musharraf allowed to lapse for almost a decade. Clear thinking leadership in the Pakistan Army should denounce Musharraf for his almost criminal neglect of the forces.

Kayani is scheduled to leave service this summer. An extension of his service also would extend the compact he has crafted between the Army and the civilian government, giving the latter more time to consolidate and establish itself after years of Musharraf's abuses. This tentatively is tonight's good news.

I dont think its good news for India point of view.

So what Gilani and co are doing is giving Kiyani Mushy status in order to garunetee agreements they plan to negotiate.

This explains Kasuri's leaks or rants about J&K deals etc. He knows Kiyani will be there to ensure TSPA backing for any deal just as Mushy was before he got too big for his boots.

James B · Post by **James B** » 06 May 2010 23:56

Slime ball FM Qureshi's interview with Karan Thapar. An excerpt, where the slime ball lying through his teeth.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/devils-advoc ... ml?from=hp

Karan Thapar:Many people will interpret that as you are having an open mind. Let's move on to the Jamaat-Ud-Dawa itself. Even though it has been listed as a terrorist organisation by the United Nation Security Council, it continues to operate freely and openly in Pakistan. It raises recruits, it holds rallies, it raises funds. Worst of all it distributes leaflets advocating jihad in Kashmir. Why do you permit that?

Shah Mehmood Qureshi: The government of Pakistan has taken all and necessary steps to, first of all, proscribe the organisation, secondly to freeze their assets and do everything possible to discourage what they are distributing. But as you know, in every society, there all sorts of people.

Karan Thapar:You say that you have done everything possible to proscribe the LeT but the truth is, it hasn't been notified under the anti-terrorist Act. In fact, In September, when Hafeez Saeed was released by Lahore High Court after you tried to detain him under the anti-terrorist Act, those were the precise grounds on which the judge released him. The organisation is not proscribed. So clearly, even by what you claim yourself , you haven't done everything you could have?

Shah Mehmood Qureshi: The organisation is proscribed. And that is the factual position.

Karan Thapar:Then on what basis the Lahore High Court release him? Because the judge in his verdict releasing Saeed said it so specifically.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi: Well, judges are judges and they can pass verdicts.

Karan Thapar:So in other words, you are questioning the judge's verdict?

Shah Mehmood Qureshi: I am not questioning his verdict what I am saying is that he is independent and free to pass his verdict.

Karan Thapar:But you are also saying that the judge is wrong.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi: I never said that. I said whatever the judges do, at times, one has to respect their decisions. At times, you can like or at times, you are not completely comfortable with their judgment but you have to respect them.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 07 May 2010 00:03

It is pointless to interview these characters hoping that something will come out of it.

Bombay high court should pass out a death Sentence to Hafeez Saeeed.

Lahore High court should summon Hafeez Saeeed on X date.

IAF SU-MKIs or Prithvi missile launched from Amritsar to hit the Lahore High Court on X date to implement the sentence on Hafeez Saeeed as passed out by Bombay high Court.

It will be even better if all the pigs (zargar, saeed, etc) are bombed at the same time.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 07 May 2010 00:23

CRamS wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: Which goras?
Many. One of the most pre-eminent among the foreign policy elite, the guy who first hob-knobbed with AfPak terrorists who now haunt India: Zbignief Brizinsky. In a book, actually interview with him and Brent Scrowcroft by David Ignatius of WP, Zbig clearly says India is an arftifical state (with so many languages and ethnicities glued together) and it is unclear whether in its current form, many northern states will be with India. He further goes on to add that as Indian people are more economically empowered the fisssures will only be exaggarated as people become more politically conscious. He argues that India is not a good partner for US, and both argue that by giving India a nuke deal which TSP is so upset about, it has undercut India's ineterests. Just recently, another Harvard prof was interviewed on rediff said India is a "flailing state" if not a "failing state". My prediction is that unless India evolves a cohesive national identity, the US gameplan of rendering the entire region into a loose "South asian" federation at each other's throats but dependent on US for security and other sustenence is inexorable. And IMO, MMS shares this "vision". As Venkat said, US support to this abomination called TSP despites its diabolical crimes is proof of US intentions.

Can you post links to these interviews you are talking about? Otherwise your claims are unsubstantiated and thus meaningless. In fact they seem to border or propoganda.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 07 May 2010 00:53

Why do indians pose so much faith in the Paki judiciary ?
The judges belong to the same paki society and must be equally infested with the Hate India bug

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 May 2010 00:58

ramana wrote:I dont think its good news for India point of view.

So what Gilani and co are doing is giving Kiyani Mushy status in order to garunetee agreements they plan to negotiate.

This explains Kasuri's leaks or rants about J&K deals etc. He knows Kiyani will be there to ensure TSPA backing for any deal just as Mushy was before he got too big for his boots.

Pakistan has a history of trusted army chiefs biting the hand that elevated them. Bhutto, Nawaz etc experienced that. Will Kayani go the route of Zia and Mushy?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 07 May 2010 01:03

^ when you have a compliant Gilani (with a charade of "Democracy") and no heat what so ever from goras, why would he do that? Zardari is already caged.

James B · Post by **James B** » 07 May 2010 01:14

Pakistan Taliban disavow Times Square bomb suspect Faisal Shahzad

A spokesman for the Pakistan Taliban claims the group has fighters on American soil who are poised to attack, but denies responsibility for the fizzled car bomb in Times Square.

"We will be attacking in a new style against the United States and its allies. Our people have reached the US and other European countries and soon will be attacking," says Azam Tariq. The spokesman for Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP) spoke by phone from an undisclosed location.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 07 May 2010 01:17

Krishna says ideal situation, will talk to Qureshi today

“An ideal situation has come about (for dialogue). Transformation has come about in our relations (with Pakistan),” he said, referring to the meeting between Singh and Gilani on the sidelines of the SAARC summit. “Indeed, I am talking to my Pakistan counterpart tomorrow (over the phone).”

Krishna also spoke about trust deficit, the catchword that has been used to define Indo-Pak ties of late, as the basic problem. “India believes in open door policy. We will have to keep our communication open,” he said, justifying the decision to revive talks with Pakistan.

James B · Post by **James B** » 07 May 2010 01:22

Cagey about 26/11, Pakistan too eager to help US crack NY plot

In a far cry from the lethargic and tardy cooperation India gets from Pakistan in dealing with all things terrorism related, Islamabad went out on a limb on Wednesday to help US investigators get additional leads into the Time Square bomb plot.

Authorities in Pakistan have been uncharacteristically swift in rounding up a number of people for questioning, as US investigators try to piece together the actions and motivations of Shahzad who comes from a wealthy Pakistani family.

Of course, if you give baksheesh Pakis will line up to lick the a** of anyone.

James B · Post by **James B** » 07 May 2010 01:25

Local Pakistan politicians shelter militants

It's a troubling trend in Pakistan's biggest and richest province of Punjab: Leaders there are tolerating and in some cases promoting some of the country's most violent Islamist militant groups.

Critics believe the policy of tolerance is a shortsighted bid by Sharif and his brother, former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, for political support in the predominantly Sunni province, which accounts for nearly 60 percent of Pakistan's 175 million people and much of the country's wealth.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 07 May 2010 01:32

James B wrote:Slime ball FM Qureshi's interview with Karan Thapar. An excerpt, where the slime ball lying through his teeth.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi: I never said that. I said whatever the judges do, at times, one has to respect their decisions. At times, you can like or at times, you are not completely comfortable with their judgment but you have to respect them.

[/quote]

Slimeball chose the wrong person to give interview Karan Thapar is amazing guy. I still remember how he made AB Bardhan shit his pants over pratibha patil election.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 May 2010 02:22

pgbhat wrote:^ when you have a compliant Gilani (with a charade of "Democracy") and no heat what so ever from goras, why would he do that? Zardari is already caged.

isnt it likely that the west has already started dealing directly with kiya nahi knowing full well that zardu and gillu are time wasters?

in that context what goes of MMS to talk to gillu? no doubt unkil is twisting everything of everybody's to get kiya nahin to play ball on afpak front for a clean exit... but it also looks like some attempt is being made to fund the rebuilding of the civil society... interesting to see what comes next

finally saw the daniel pearl movie last weekend... makes no bones about the sorry state of affairs in TSP - everyone gets it, its all about unkil's H&D now

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 May 2010 02:39

Dipanker wrote:
Can you post links to these interviews you are talking about? Otherwise your claims are unsubstantiated and thus meaningless. In fact they seem to border or propoganda.

Please do a Google search based on the info in that post and you should hit upon the book. Now, I may be paraphrasing what Zbieg said, but I capture the essence.

What do you mean "border on propaganda"? Every political statement is propaganda. USA's policy of India TSP equal equal is also propaganda. For a country that has committed the crimes that TSP has, a fraction of what say Iran or NK have, and yet enjoys the full confidence and patronage of US, much to the detriment of India, don't you think there is a wider geo-political US policy objective here? Even after failed Times Square terror plot by a Paki with connections to terrorist groups in TSP (TSP itself is a terrorist entity), the WP report posted here indicates that US will not push TSP on LET. Once again common sense would have it that so called 'global war on terror' is a 'global fraud on terror' if TSP gets to keep some terrorists and use them as a bargaining chip against India. Once again why is US permitting and coluuding in this?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 07 May 2010 04:15

CRamS wrote:

He further goes on to add that as Indian people are more economically empowered the fisssures will only be exaggarated as people become more politically conscious. ... My prediction is that unless India evolves a cohesive national identity, the US gameplan of rendering the entire region into a loose "South asian" federation at each other's throats but dependent on US for security and other sustenence is inexorable.

How is your prediction different from Brzezinski's statements? He and you are saying the same thing - India doesn't yet have a cohesive national identity. He's saying until India demonstrates such a identity, Indian unity is at risk, and surprise, surprise, that is exactly what you're saying. {Incidentally, I disagree with the both of you.}

And you've yet to show that there is some "US gameplan" - at least nothing in Ignatius, Scowcroft or Brzezinski say denotes some such gameplan - I've posted all the mentions of India in their book on the geopolitical thread.

My real question is - can I safely ignore you henceforth?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 May 2010 04:39

A_Gupta wrote:
My real question is - can I safely ignore you henceforth?

Cut this sarcastic nonsense; pity I have been showing a lot of deference and respect towards you. Please, ignore me if you want to, I can't stop you

.

What gameplan are you looking for? Isn't the very existance of TSP a US game plan? LET outside the war on terror is not a game plan? TSP allowed strategic depth is not a game plan?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 May 2010 04:43

James B wrote:Local Pakistan politicians shelter militants

The news report from AP is now promoting water dispute

In this image taken on April 6, 2010, Pakistani farmers, who own land along the almost dried-up Chenab River, Pakistan's main river which originates from India, gather around a tube well used for irrigating their farms, as they express their concerns over the water shortage affecting their land, near Gujrat, Pakistan. A bitter dispute over limited water resources is fueling tensions between India and Pakistan at a time when the South Asian rivals are trying to rebuild trust and resume peace talks. (AP Photo/B.K.Bangash)

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 07 May 2010 06:08

Jay Leno's one liner on the NY incident:

Folks, we're starting to learn more and more about that man arrested in the New York SUV car bombing case. His name is Faisal Shahzad. He's from Pakistan. What tipped off the authorities he might be the bomber? His name is Faisal Shahzad. He's from Pakistan." –Jay Leno

Ladies & Gentlemen, this is the image of TSP in middle class America now.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 07 May 2010 06:13

ramana wrote: Pakistan: The Pakistani government is considering extending the tenure period of Chief of Army Staff General Kayani by five years, the Tribune reported 5 May, citing unnamed Defence sources. Other options being considered are giving a one year extension to Kayani or introducing the position of Chief of Defense Staff, as a device for keeping Kayani on active duty. The sources said the Ministry of Defence has not yet forwarded a summary to the prime minister.

Instead of allowing the institution of army to be subservient to the institution of democracy they seem to depend on the mercy of one man - Kiyanahi. What they are admitting is the Army is a loose canon and this is the best guy to keep it in some level of control. This is TSP.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 May 2010 06:25

Methinks Kayani is the real "ringleader" who gave the go ahead for 26/11. Sometimes signs in history are difficult to read when the come decades apart (and besides I may be wrong) but just like some tribes used to have a tradition where a young man "comes of age" only after he has killed a bull or something, the Pakistani army has required an army chief to "prove his credentials" by initiating action against India. That gives him status and respect in the inner circles of Pakistan.

To go back over the last 40 odd years, Ayub Khan initiated the 1965 war. Yahya the 1971 war, Mushy started Kargil and Kayani signaled his "arrival" by ordering Mumbai. (Only Zia had Afghanistan to his credit, probably Khalistan as well) There is nothing happy about suffering a Mumbai like attack, but if my guess and timeline is true it means that over 40 years the Pakistanis army's action against India has moved completely from Pakarmy vs Indian armed forces to "non state actors" versus Indian armed forces to "non state actors" versus Indian civilians.

I think even Pakis (at least in the Army) must realise that for real military goals - knocking off civilians here and there is worthless. It is OK to bask in pride and say "Indian are scared of us because of our power to terrorize - but that fear for example did not register in the cash-till of IPL. So the "Let me prove I am a man" action of the Paki army chiefs has evolved from militarily significant (and economically crippling) to the propaganda and noisemaking (and cheap and deniable) of killing unarmed civilians. It has moved from difficult to easiest to easiest.

I just want to point out that a government that does not care for civilian deaths can allow terrorist deaths to go on forever because in the long term the terrorists do not achieve much - neither military nor geopolitical. Let me say why I state this. Pakistan has celebrated more IED Mubaraks in the last 2 years than ever before - but that has had no effect on Kayani or Gilani. I can describe the Indian government as being far more concerned (less callous and uncaring) about its own population than the Paki government - but not as concerned and caring as the US govt. I am sure the Paki goverment understands this perfectly well. If your system of government does not depend on people to change the government, several hundred or several thousand civilian deaths are of no consequence. In the case of India there is a point below which terrorist deaths do not affect the government and if Pakistani terrorism falls below this point their efforts will have moved from frank war waging (in 1965) to pinpricks (on the government, not on the population) that are ignored.

But I digress. No matter what effect Pakistan action against India has on India, it in in Pakistani inner circles that it is recognized as having been ordered or masterminded by the head honcho of the army who then gets a "one up" tag over others. And army chief with "credentials" over India needs to have status to hold on to his position and appoint his own chamchas who will them make billions as opposed to mere tens of millions. Such and army chief is not easily appointed in Pakistan and it would be ridiculous to get rid of him in two years. No army can pretend to wage war and yet make money if the leadership is changing every 2 years. Internal stability is required and hence Kayani's place is being institutionalized.

9-11 was a scary time for Pakistan, but Musharraf successfully pulled the wool over US eyes - and did a downhill ski wrt to India because India and US together would have been too hot to handle. It is ironic that Mushy, who started Kargil got the reputation of "peacemaker" who "almost solved" Kashmir - a piece of trash that should be discarded from memory. The botched New York bomb is nowhere near 9-11 but comes at an embarrassing time for Paki establishment chamchas. I guess the real happy thing about is is the indication of how far the indoctrination of "Jihad against kafirs" has reached in Pakistan.

The Pakistan army must either support Islam in its full glory and submit to their own propaganda or do a taqiya and pretend to be moderate. The Pakistan army used to do the former against india because the US did not see anti-India action as Islamist action. It was sort of natural for anyone to be against India. You don't have to be Islamist to be against India. Even if you were so what? But now the Islamists have tasted the US. I wonder if their fervor will give them the balls to take on the Pakistan army?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 May 2010 06:49

We have discussed on this forum from time to time what has been described as the awesome unifying power of Islam - a feature that has been advertised as an unstoppable fundamentalist force. What we have now in Pakistan is a chance to see whether that "awesome unstoppable power" is true or just a bogey. The forces of jihad (pure ones) have to take on the Pakistan army with the US backing it (impure ones).

Who will win? The awesome unifying and unstoppable brutal power of Islam or forces of taqiya and pretence causing downhill skiing by the awesome unstoppable ones? My guess is that forces of taqiya and pretence will win hands down showing that the "awesome unstoppable power" is neither awesome nor unstoppable. Just stupid and brutal. The Pakistani army will survive. Jihad will be defeated by taqiya. This is the easiest way out. All it needs is a few deaths (of those who are willing to die anyway) among the jihadis. The rest will join the forces of taqiya. Mark my words and bash me on here if I am wrong.

Of course India's problem is not so much the awesome unstoppable power that we have held up as the real threat. India's problem has been the Pakistani army, the forces of taqiya showing the face of a "use me freely" whore to the US and pointing a knife at the "kafirs" of India. So far the only entity on earth that has been wiling to take on the Pakistan army (in war) has been India. Whether the "awesome unstoppable forces of Islam" will really do that or not will become apparent soon. It is easier to take on the US than the Pakistan army.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 07 May 2010 07:09

^^^^
Defeating the Pakistani Army is not the issue. It has been done before. The issue is how to displace them out of their dominant role in Pakistan? We will be stuck with endless cycles until they are knocked out.