Indian Naval Discussion

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 08 Feb 2011 06:48

Singhaji, we do have our own beautiful designs well suited for us. I don't think the Navy will now revert back to purchases. There is no need. We will go on our own path of indigenous designs and ship building and design that suits us the most, the ones that pack the punch, multi role, advanced warships that's also cheap.

With the introduction of modular construction the time frame will also get compressed to 5 years or so.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Feb 2011 07:09

uddu wrote:
John wrote:P17A will have nothing in common with P17 other than the name there is currently an tender for the design from various SY. IIRC the front runner is DCN.
Are you sure? I don't like ittttttt.
From the India defence article via keypublishing.com
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=1572517

How does the design of Shivalik compare with other designs of her class? With the experience of Shivalik, what would be the direction for the design of the follow on class P-17A?

Shivalik design embodies many firsts in IN ships. The CODOG propulsion plant, the Ship Data network (AISDN), the new Total Atmosphere Control System (TACS) for the ship’s air-conditioning and ventilation, IMCS, APMS, the distributed PGD system using EDCs, the IVCS, etc., set her quite apart from earlier designs in terms of design concepts, automation and operational advantages. The ship compares very well with contemporary world designs in terms of capabilities packed into a class of ship of her size. The design and construction of Shivalik have produced a wealth of experience on which to further improve the P17A design. P17A will be more stealthy with covered mooring deck and flush deck mounted (VLM) weapon systems. The number of antennae on the ship will be reduced by use of a multifunction radar. The design will also explore better options for roll stabilization of the platform. In order to help cut down build periods and improve productivity, it is planned to go in for modular integrated construction for P17A. The design, project management and life cycle will be supported by a more comprehensive CAD/PLM.

Original IN plan called for using a "European" design as the basis for P-17A. However, it seems things have changed in the last year or so with Indian shipyards building all 7 frigates (instead of 1+6).

As per some reports, P-17 is an "enlarged" and customized version of the Krivak.III design. With P-17A design, I would think IN would want to have European shipyard consultancy for further improvments to the basic P-17 design rather than a new design completely. The same know-hows could also be applied on the 4 P-15B class of destroyers and 4 P-28A class of corvettes.

Other thing to note is that all IN's upcoming FFG and DDG will use the Barak-NG (and associated technologies) as its standard MR/LR-SAM.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 08 Feb 2011 07:51

Nerpa and Arihant will Augment Indian Navy’s Declining Submarine Strength

..:: India Strategic ::..

Nerpa and Arihant will Augment Indian Navy’s Declining Submarine Strength

By Cmde (Retd) Ranjit B Rai
The Author is a Former Director Naval Operations (DNO) and Naval Intelligence (DNI).

Published : January 2011

Submarine is the Weapon of the Future. The Submarine Alone Can Assure Command of the Sea : Admiral George Cabanier.

“Submariners are a special brotherhood, either all come to the surface or no one does. On a submarine, the phrase, ‘all for one and one for all’, is not a slogan but a reality: Vice Admiral Rudolf Golosov: Russian Navy.

On 7th December, 2010 the Indian Naval ensign was hauled down at sunset for the last time on INS Vagli, the last of the eight Foxtrot class boats and she was solemnly decommissioned after 37 years of service and put to rest at Vishakapatnam. The submarine Order Of Battle (ORBAT) of the Indian Navy thus dwindled down to 14 on that day, from a high of 21 in the 1980s. Of the 14 submarines listed, 10 boats are aging as they have already been in service for over 23 years, and the 20 year INS Sindhukriti has been opened up at Hindustan Shipyard for conversion to fire the Klub missiles.

Two old submarines are planned for decommissioning in the next five years. The outlook is bleak, and the Indian Navy has not acquired a submarine for the last 14 years, except INS Sindhushastra, the first Klub firing Kilo submarine which joined in 2000, but the good news is the nuclear propelled 12,000 ton Nerpa, which is a refurbished Akula Type 971 will join the fleet shortly in 2011, and be possibly based at Vishakaptanam.
The Nerpa will come on a $ 900 million lease for 10 years from Russia.

Meanwhile, India’s own nuclear Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV) INS Arihant is expected to join in 2011-12. It will be armed with 12 nuclear tipped 700km K-15 missiles, to form India’s TRIAD as indicated by the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Kumar Verma, at his customary Navy Week briefing on 2nd December, aptly under the banner, Glorious Past-Vibrant Future.

In any large navy, the submarine arm is a very critical and indispensable force. During the height of the cold war it was well articulated by Admiral HG Rickover, a submariner himself, and the longest serving legendary head of the American nuclear submarine department. He said: I believe it is the duty of every man serving on US Navy submarines to act as though the fate of the world depends on them.

Submarine power provides a nation combat and deterrence power, and submariners are baptized by fire as every man on the boat that dives, snorkels or surfaces has to be a professional, trained for any emergency and have a sociological attitude of mind to remain under water for prolonged periods and live in cramped quarters under great stress. No wonder submarines motto is ‘Run Deep Run Silent”.

In comparison with surface warships, submarines have small crews who are trained to multi task, while the cramped complexity of machinery and use of every inch of space, demands very exacting standards for maintenance.
The Indian Navy’s journey of operating a long line of 25 submarines, began on 8th December, 1967 with the commissioning of the first Foxtrot class boat INS Kalvari after long and grueling periods of training at Vladivostok. Since then India’s submarine arm has operated submarines with élan and professionalism accident free, a feat not many navies have equaled.

In those 44 long years, the Navy acquired and operated 8 Foxtrots, 10 Kilos and 4 HDW boats (two built in India) and ran the nuclear propelled INS Chakra from 1987 to 1991 on lease. The INS Chakra embarked a few safety Russian crew members, but soon the Indian Navy was certified by Admiral of the Fleet Sergei Gorshkov, a great friend of the Indian Navy, that it had the capability to operate all aspects of the complicated nuclear submarine. The Indian electrical officer who commissioned Chakra’s reactor was certified as an independent ‘Reactor in Charge’.

The Navy set up all the required nuclear support facilities in the congested inner Vishakapatnam harbour, which Admiral Gorshkov on his visit to India in 1974 had stressed would prove to be impractical in the long term as the entrance to the harbor is narrow and the commercial port would expand. He suggested a green field naval port at Bimlipatam. He was supported by Engineer Rear Admiral Daya Shankar who had joined the Ministry of Defence but funds were a constraint. Adm Gorshkov has been proved right, as nuclear submarines need pens, special segregated safe berthing facilities and the Navy is already planning for a green field naval port on the East Coast.
India had become the world’s 7th submarine building nation by 1985, but had to stop production after constructing two HDW- IKL-1500 boats due to the HDW investigations and an alleged scandal. India lost a valuable art, but a lot has been recouped by the ATV INS Arihant project at Vishakapatnam.
Much is kept classified however, as India has secrecy agreements with Russia, whose naval officers are assisting India in the project with critical equipment and direction. A submarine’s operational life hovers around 20 to 25 years as the steel begins to age. A single fissure in the hull can lead to catastrophe in a deep dive.

The government had approved the Navy’s 30-Year Two Line Submarine Building Plan as early as 1999, but it saw no movement till 2005 for the Scorpene construction line.
It is no surprise that the submarine strength of the Navy’s conventional submarine arm is set to fall to 8 or 10 by 2015 when the first Scorpene being constructed at Mazagon Docks is expected to enter service. Of the ten, only four or five can be expected to be operational for India’s vast region for patrols at any given time as the refits of the Kilo class submarines are carried out in Servodnisk Russia and one boat is there.

INDIA’S SCORPENE SUBMARINE PROJECT AND BEYOND

On 6th October 2005, French Ambassador in New Delhi Dominique Girard and Indian Ministry of Defence’s Additional Secretary (Acquisitions) D Banerjee signed the first of the long awaited 6 submarine $ 3.9 billion contract in the presence of the then Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash, with the now defunct company Armaris.

The licensed construction with 80 HLES high-yield steel for the pressure hull, which is the same as used for the French Navy's nuclear submarines, commenced at the Mazagon Docks in December 2006, December 2007 and August 2008, respectively, and the contract called for the first submarine to be delivered in December 2012 and one each year thereafter through 2017. The HLES steel allows unlimited diving to more than 300m while offering greater freedom for tactical manoeuvers. The first, second and third submarines will be equipped with MBDA supplied Exocet missiles and Thales Subtics command and control suites. The decision for the torpedo has not been taken, and the WASS Blackshark is the favoured choice. However the building and delivery of the first French-designed Scorpene submarines being built at Mumbai by DCNS of France and Navantia of Spain has now been delayed to 2015.

On 18th August 2009, Defence Minister A K Antony told parliament that delays were expected "on account of some teething problems, absorption of technology and delays in augmentation of industrial infrastructure and procurement of purchased materials" by Mazagon Docks. He added that the “delay in the scheduled delivery of submarines is likely to have an impact on the envisaged submarine force levels."

The Indian government has recently sanctioned an additional $ one billion for the Scorpene project, increasing the total cost to around $5 billion. The CCPA took time to clear the escalation and orders for engines and other imported equipment were then placed and the lead time for receipt of engines is around 24 to 30 months.

In the mean time, DCNS and Navantia have agreed to drop cooperation on the Scorpene conventional diesel-electric attack submarine and go their own ways in undersea warfare. DCNS has taken over sole rights to build and sell the Scorpenes, and has offered the Super Scorpene to the Indian Navy for its second line while Navantia has worked on its S-90 submarine with a combat system from Lockheed for India.

Mr Antony has assured that the government constantly reviews the security environment and looks at the latest and the best equipment to protect India's maritime interests.
Meanwhile, Atlas Electronix is re-equipping the HDW-Type 1500 Shishumar class with modern weapon control suites. The Indian Navy hopes to order six more submarines from foreign builders, under the ‘Buy and Make In India’ at a cost of around $11 billion, but production is unlikely to begin soon, as the Requests for Proposals have not been issued.

There is a lobby that India should import two boats to augment the India Navy’s depleting strength, and build four in India and private shipyards Larsen & Toubro and Pipavav Shipyards have informed MOD of their desire to be allowed to bid.
Dr Manmohan Singh from his powerful Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) has tasked Mr V Krishnamurthy, a veteran technocrat who heads India’s National Manufacturing Competitiveness Council (NMCC), to submit a report to assist the MOD in the final decisions. In the competition for the order are the designs tabled for collaboration in Indian yards by HDW with its 214, Spain’s S-90, DCNS’s Super Scorpene and a Russian Amur-Italian combine. There is talk that a sea launched BrahMos could form part of the weapon fit.

THE NERPA AND INS ARIHANT AND DSRV INDUCTIONS

The good news is that the Indian Navy is set to induct the 12,000 ton nuclear Akula, or the Nerpa, in the first half of 2011. The submarine is now undergoing, ‘handing over preparations’ at Vladivostok. An advance party has witnessed the trials and the boat will possibly be named INS Chakra. The other good news is the Indian built INS Arihant will join in 2011-12 with capability to launch from under water the 700 km DRDO-built K-15 nuclear tipped missile to form India’s nuclear triad.

INS Arihant is presently berthed under a shed at the Ship Building Centre (SBC) near the Naval Dockyard in Vishakhapatnam and will undergo all the standard harbour and sea trials common to all nuclear submarines. The crew has been trained at the Kalpakkam training nuclear reactor and in Russia, and the large black pear shaped hull has reportedly completed the first of many trim dives alongside, an operation that requires very detailed trim calculations for the first of the class. This is a very critical operation for flooding and de-flooding the ballast tanks by the powerful pumps.

Like all the nuclear submarine building yards, SBC has all the facilities to produce external steam and power for the submarine. With external steam and power, a submarine’s propulsion, steering gear and associated systems, electronics and generators can be set to work and tested in the harbour trials.

When all the systems have been cleared by the Submarine Overseering Teams, the full ship’s complement joins the boat for very detailed safety and emergency training. This is a very critical part of the commissioning, and is overseen under directions by the specialist submarine Vice Admiral at the Naval Headquarters (NHQ) for nuclear safety. When all the harbour trials are completed, the 95mw nuclear reactor-powered Arihant, which has already been tested ashore, will go critical at low power and worked up to higher power to enable the hull to go to sea. When this happens, INS Arihant will report Underway on Nuclear Power, or words to that effect, marking a Red Letter Day in India’s history.

The next steps will include the many Part II sea trials on surface at various speeds, and when the confidence of the crew is made firm, the submarine will carry out its first shallow dive, going deeper progressively at various speeds. On return from every diving trial, many checks on the hull and reactor performance will be carried out by specialists and the final deep dive to maximum operating depth will culminate in the submarine getting on to Part III for weapon trials with a concurrent work up.

All this sounds simple but it is very time consuming and trying process. Only when all these steps are completed, INS Arihant will be commissioned.

Submarine accidents are rare but they do occur with considerable losses and for one reason or the other the Indian Navy has not been able to acquire a Deep Rescue Submarine Vessel (DSRV) but has relied on a diving support vessel with a decompression chamber, and more recently has financial arrangements with the US Navy which would fly in a DSRV and take it to the site of the accident, and mate with the submarine to enable rescue.

The Shishumar class boats have a circular bell which can accommodate eight and can be released to come up to the surface. The Kilo class have rescue diving suits. On 18th March, 2004, INS Sindhuraj achieved the first successful ‘underwater mating’ with a submarine rescue bell (SRB) and two officers transferred from the bottomed submarine to be lifted in to INS Nireekshak’s hyperbaric chamber to de be decompressed. The Indian Navy has sent out RFIs to acquire DSRVs and a tentative order had been contemplated on Ocean Works of Canada, a leading DSRV builder but it was not followed up. The Navy has also sent out RFIs for two large submarine support vessels to be built in an Indian yard and equipped with two imported DSRVs.

CONCLUSION

The submarine scene for the Indian Navy is looking bleak and expensive, till the submarines being built at MDL are delivered and the second line is ordered. It is essential that some steps are taken to acquire submarines from abroad as new greenfield submarine building projects in India may prove dilatory. The Scorpene project has proved to be more expensive but it is explained away by Government officials as “opportunity costs of indigenization”.

The nuclear submariners see the year 2012 as a game changing year when INS Arihant joins, and it is reported that two more ATVs are planned. The second hull will have four large long range K-4 nuclear tipped missiles and the third may have an additional plug for a total of eight K-4 missiles.

The Author is a Former Director Naval Operations (DNO) and Naval Intelligence (DNI).

© India Strategic

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 08 Feb 2011 07:55

P-17A is an evolved P-17, better shielding and stealth, heavier gun and enhanced weapons. Maz has a CGI of the design.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Feb 2011 08:28

Navy hunt two more pirate ships

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Feb 2011 11:58

Rupak wrote:P-17A is an evolved P-17, better shielding and stealth, heavier gun and enhanced weapons. Maz has a CGI of the design.

Umm. If the CGI isn't confidential, may the teeming masses of the unwashed get a chance to view it? Or perhaps it can be sent to cuttingmyownthroat at gee mail dawt com? Pretty please?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 08 Feb 2011 12:29

If Maz has it how can it be confidential?

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 08 Feb 2011 12:50

It was a gentle jibe at the powers-that-be to share the wealth saar.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 09 Feb 2011 05:41

Northrop Grumman Confirms RFIs Issued for Naval Airborne Early Warning Aircraft

From a press briefing on 7th.. Sorry for the delay in publishing.. (cross post)

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 09 Feb 2011 06:14

SriSri wrote:Northrop Grumman Confirms RFIs Issued for Naval Airborne Early Warning Aircraft

More evidence of a shift towards CATOBAR?

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 09 Feb 2011 06:50

GeorgeWelch wrote:
SriSri wrote:Northrop Grumman Confirms RFIs Issued for Naval Airborne Early Warning Aircraft
More evidence of a shift towards CATOBAR?

once the design of ships has been freezed it can't be changed again,only in second IAC they might have it,otherwise where those remaining 29 Ks will go.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 09 Feb 2011 09:56

Indian Navy Interested in Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Maritime Surveillance Unmanned Aircraft Systems

^^ Another lead from that meet

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 09 Feb 2011 10:07

Baldev wrote:once the design of ships has been freezed it can't be changed again,only in second IAC they might have it,otherwise where those remaining 29 Ks will go.

Yes, I was talking about IAC-2 and on.

Obviously IAC-1 won't be

nits · Post by **nits** » 09 Feb 2011 11:37

Navy begins salvaging INS Vindhyagiri

The Indian Navy has started efforts to salvage the Nilgiri class frigate INS Vindhyagiri that capsized after the collision with the Cyprus-flagged merchant vessel Nordlake on January 30. Navy officials said they were salvaging the vessel at the naval dockyard and the process would continue over the next few days. They will decide whether to decommission it or refit the vessel only after it has been salvaged.

Navy officials said if the ship is in good condition, it will undergo a major repair and refit. The collision caused a crack in Vindhyagiri's hull and ruptured a fuel tank, which led to a massive fire. "Electrical systems will be replaced at places where water has entered. A newly refitted ship can be in the Indian Navy's service for the next five years," said a Navy official.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Feb 2011 11:57

SriSri wrote:Indian Navy Interested in Northrop Grumman MQ-4C Maritime Surveillance Unmanned Aircraft Systems

^^ Another lead from that meet

This one is the buddy for the Neptune.Designed to be interoperable and complementary.

Kalaic · Post by **Kalaic** » 09 Feb 2011 13:27

What the hell is going on in that naval base. ?? It's supposed to be a fully secured and protected area..
What were the guards doing at that moment when the intruder slipped pass them.?
Do the guards know how to check on visitors and be strict with them...?
Or is it that the system at that base and others , at parliament, and at ISRO and DRDO are all like this ..? slacking as it always has been since the british left india....my goodness.
Pls do not let what happened at parliament by terrorists, happen again in any indian military or other sensitive areas......
Just go down to any parliament buildings, and you will see the guards standing or busy talking to other guards and oblivious to any goings on around them. they dont even have that killer looks on their faces.....
Then tell me , who would be scared ?? they are supposed to be strict and stern while trying to be nice to visitors at the same time, and must be very eagle eyed and watchful.......
These things have happened 1 too many times in india at many locations too.....
So when are these people going to be corrected and be made to realise that they are guarding a sensitive area..??????????

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 09 Feb 2011 14:00

Vande Mataram wrote: What the hell is going on in that naval base. ?? It's supposed to be a fully secured and protected area..
What were the guards doing at that moment when the intruder slipped pass them.?
Do the guards know how to check on visitors and be strict with them...?
Or is it that the system at that base and others , at parliament, and at ISRO and DRDO are all like this ..? slacking as it always has been since the british left india....my goodness.
Pls do not let what happened at parliament by terrorists, happen again in any indian military or other sensitive areas......
Just go down to any parliament buildings, and you will see the guards standing or busy talking to other guards and oblivious to any goings on around them. they dont even have that killer looks on their faces.....
Then tell me , who would be scared ?? they are supposed to be strict and stern while trying to be nice to visitors at the same time, and must be very eagle eyed and watchful.......
These things have happened 1 too many times in india at many locations too.....
So when are these people going to be corrected and be made to realise that they are guarding a sensitive area..??????????

Breathe my friend, Exhale. Yes, do it a few more times and then please tell to what breach at a Naval Base were you referring to?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2011 22:52

D.Roy so there is hope for the Army 155mm arty mfg if BHEL already can make large bore naval guns.

Good insight.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 10 Feb 2011 00:34

Vande Mataram wrote: What the hell is going on in that naval base. ?? It's supposed to be a fully secured and protected area..
What were the guards doing at that moment when the intruder slipped pass them.?
Do the guards know how to check on visitors and be strict with them...?
Or is it that the system at that base and others , at parliament, and at ISRO and DRDO are all like this ..? slacking as it always has been since the british left india....my goodness.
Pls do not let what happened at parliament by terrorists, happen again in any indian military or other sensitive areas......
Just go down to any parliament buildings, and you will see the guards standing or busy talking to other guards and oblivious to any goings on around them. they dont even have that killer looks on their faces.....
Then tell me , who would be scared ?? they are supposed to be strict and stern while trying to be nice to visitors at the same time, and must be very eagle eyed and watchful.......
These things have happened 1 too many times in india at many locations too.....
So when are these people going to be corrected and be made to realise that they are guarding a sensitive area..??????????

Shouldnt this fine piece be moved to the BR humour thread?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 10 Feb 2011 08:01

BAE Displays Model of Navalized Eurofighter Typhoon for India

BAE Displays Model of Navalized Eurofighter Typhoon for India

By ANDREW CHUTER

Published : 9 Feb 2011

BANGALORE - BAE Systems responded to an Indian Navy request for information on a new naval fighter last year with an offer based on the Typhoon combat jet.

BAE Systems responded to an Indian Navy request for information on a new naval fighter with an offer based on the Typhoon combat jet. Above, a Eurofighter Typhoon takes off in June 2009. (Alan Lessig / Staff file photo) At the Aero India 2011 show, which opened here Feb. 9, the company took the wraps off what it thinks an Indian naval Typhoon might look like. The design may be aimed squarely at the Indians, but with questions still being asked by some sections of the U.K. government over the price of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), which is destined to equip a new Royal Navy aircraft carrier, the re-emergence of the naval Typhoon was a reminder options do exist.

Asked about the naval Typhoon at the show, Peter Luff, the British defense minister visiting Aero India in support of London's increasing export drive, ruled out interest in any platform other than the Joint Strike Fighter.

Paul Hopkins, BAE's vice president of air business development, said the work done on the naval Typhoon was solely geared toward the Indian Navy.

That said, the previous Labour administration eyed a navalized Typhoon as a possible plan B during negotiations with the U.S. over JSF technology transfer, and some of the work supporting the Indian request for information stems from that period.

Pictures displayed by BAE showed an aircraft model with a number of modifications compared to the land-based Typhoon being offered to the Indian Air Force in a contest to provide a medium, multirole combat aircraft. Most obvious is the conformal tanks and thrust vectoring nozzles, but other more subtle changes included a beefed-up undercarriage, some strengthening of the airframe and other requirements needed to take Typhoon to sea.

A small deployable flap on the upper wing could also be fitted to improve handling during take-off if thrust vectoring was not incorporated in the requirement.

Hopkins said BAE has done sufficient work to establish whether a naval Typhoon for the Indian Navy is feasible. Now the company has at least two hurdles to overcome.

First, Typhoon has to beat out opposition from the F/A-18, Rafale, Gripen, F-16 and MiG-35 for the Air Force order. Then the Indian Navy needs to decide whether it will continue to use ski jumps on its expanding aircraft carrier force or start to switch to a catapult and arrestor gear configuration.

"If it's a decision for a catapult, then we are not a contender," said Hopkins.

Meeting catapult requirements would add too much weight to the aircraft, blunt performance and add substantially to modification costs.

The more modest changes needed to launch from a ski jump and recover using an arrestor hook would add only around 500 kilograms to the aircraft weight, said Hopkins.

Air Force Typhoons already carry an arrestor hook for emergency landings although this would require strengthening.

Hopkins said a naval Typhoon would be capable of operating from the 45,000-ton Russian carrier Admiral Gorshkov, now being converted for the Indians into a vessel that can accommodate short takeoff but arrested recovery (STOBAR) flight.

Pictures of the Typhoon were shown on the BAE stand with the converted Russian carrier in the background.

BAE wasn't the only company with a fighter without a naval pedigree to respond to the Indian request for information.

A naval version of a STOBAR-capable Gripen is also being developed by Saab.

The F/A-18 and Rafale are already up to speed as land-based and naval fighters, and offer a ready-made catapult-launched solution once the Navy has a formal requirement for a new fighter.

Last month, the U.S. added to the possible naval contenders by saying it would make the JSF available if India asked.

Look Closely its got Thrust Vectoring Engines

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 10 Feb 2011 08:09

** Deleted **

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 10 Feb 2011 08:11

Northrop Grumman Says India Should Tap Economies Of Scale For E-2D

Northrop Grumman Says India Should Tap Economies Of Scale For E-2D
Feb 8, 2011
By Neelam Mathews
NEW DELHI

Northrop Grumman says that if India purchases the company’s E-2D airborne early warning & control (AEW&C) aircraft at the same time as the U.S., it will gain a price benefit from economies of scale.

India’s current Requirement is for One squadron of Four AEW&C Aircraft, with Two More as Options. It is Believed the Indian Navy Requires 12 in the Coming Years.

With the warming of U.S.-India relations, India is among the first countries for which the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye has been approved for export. The Indian Navy Made a Formal Request for the Sale Last October.

“The challenge with the E-2D is we’re building small numbers,” says Tom Trudell, Northrop’s E-2D manager for international business development. “This is a low-rate production/niche program.”

The Indian Navy is Still Awaiting a Response from the U.S. on a Request to Add Further Capability to the Export Version of the E-2D. U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has said the delay is simply due to bureaucratic inefficiencies, Trudell says.

“We Believe the Request for Proposals should Emerge,” says Gyanendra Sharma, managing director of Northrop Grumman India. “We are in dialogue with the [Indian Defense Ministry].”

A sole-source contract is expected. The Indian Navy is Anxious to Procure the System, but India’s Slow Procurement Process may hold up the Decision.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Feb 2011 15:26

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-5006

A potential partnership between India and the United Kingdom for BAE Systems Type 26 frigates was talked about as a possibility going forward.

What about this !?

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Feb 2011 15:29

According to BAE brochure

Future Surface Combatant

http://www.baesystems.com/Businesses/Su ... /index.htm
The Future Surface Combatant programme aims to develop a new generation of affordable, agile warships that can adapt easily to the fast changing demands of modern defence.

Type 26 for the UK Royal Navy is the first class of ships to be designed under the programme. Delivering enhanced submarine defence and able to adapt to multiple roles, the platform will enhance the current capability of the Type 22 and Type 23 frigates, which it is set to replace.

It will be designed with export sales in mind from the outset, with a flexible core platform, allowing equipment and systems to be integrated to meet individual customer needs. The first due to enter service around the start of the next decade.

A joint BAE Systems/MOD team has already been established under a four year programme bringing together the best warship engineering expertise to drive innovation and reduce risk as the detailed specification is developed ready for manufacture. With a focus on through life management, Type 26 will be designed to enable easy upgrades as capability evolves, delivering value for money, while ensuring it remains at the cutting-edge throughout its service life.

Where appropriate, equipment and systems that have been proven on existing platforms will be used on board Type 26, helping to minimise the risk and cost involved in delivering a new platform to UK armed forces

Displacement: 6,000 tonnes

Length: 144 metres

Maximum beam: 21.5 metres

Top speed: 28 knots

Range: 7,000 miles

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 10 Feb 2011 15:31

Most probably UK is offering Co-development which will be their type26 and for us P-17A. wiki says type-26 will be of 6800 tonnes.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 10 Feb 2011 17:16

kit wrote:http://www.india-defence.com/reports-5006

A potential partnership between India and the United Kingdom for BAE Systems Type 26 frigates was talked about as a possibility going forward.

What about this !?

Spoke to the BAE Systems officials after the British Defence Minister brought this up. At this point of time all they say is that it is an option being proposed / considered. The Minister bought it up first at the press briefing and an official at BAE Systems confirmed it, but wouldn't say more.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Feb 2011 17:35

Vande Mataram, your handle has been changed to Kalaic in accordance with Forum rules.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 10 Feb 2011 18:53

Northrop Grumman, Pipavav Shipyard sign MOU at Aero India 2011

^^ Pipavav is one to look out for in the future..

John · Post by **John** » 10 Feb 2011 20:23

Rupak wrote:P-17A is an evolved P-17, better shielding and stealth, heavier gun and enhanced weapons. Maz has a CGI of the design.

Read about it but there are still Foreign SYs that seem to be discussing joint venture for P-17A so something doesn't add up, till there is confirmation from MoD it is hard to say what P-17A will turn out like.

vishnu.nv wrote:Most probably UK is offering Co-development which will be their type26 and for us P-17A. wiki says type-26 will be of 6800 tonnes.

It's too big, With Type 45 order being scaled down significantly Type 26 will have pick up some of the slack so it makes sense for Royal Navy. Where as IN will continue procuring P-15 variants in the near future.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Feb 2011 22:30

What is the point of buying the E-2D,when none of our carriers wil be able to launch it! Far better for the IN to acquire for any lan d based AEW aircraft the AEW Embraer/CADS aircraft,economy of scale,etc.,being acquired by the IAF.A maritime version cn easily be designed around the same platform. I think that this is a planted story by NG,as some other reports have said that the E-2D has been repeatedly rejcted by the IN,quite satisfied for now with the KA-31 aboard the carriers more being ordered.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 11 Feb 2011 08:10

Philip wrote:What is the point of buying the E-2D,when none of our carriers wil be able to launch it!

1. Maybe the IAC-2 will be able to launch it.
2. Egypt, Israel, Japan, Mexico, Singapore, Taiwan all use it without a carrier.

If India were to end up with the SH (or Rafale) and the E-2D, getting a CATOBAR carrier would make a lot of sense.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 11 Feb 2011 08:30

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Philip wrote:What is the point of buying the E-2D,when none of our carriers wil be able to launch it!
1. Maybe the IAC-2 will be able to launch it.
2. Egypt, Israel, Japan, Mexico, Singapore, Taiwan all use it without a carrier.

If India were to end up with the SH (or Rafale) and the E-2D, getting a CATOBAR carrier would make a lot of sense.

by the time IAC -2 ready naval pak fa will be there and since IAC-1 isn't going to be ready before 2015 and add 4-5 years more after 2015.

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Feb 2011 11:54

Wonder what software the Indian navy's ship designing bureau uses.This looks promising

http://www.qinetiq.com/home/products/paramarine.html

Paramarine is the only integrated computer aided design and engineering tool available today for commercial ship, warship and submarine design. It is one of the main tools used by the UK Royal Navy to model its ships and submarines and the only endorsed UK MOD tool for ship and submarine stability analysis, including the Type 45 destroyer HMS Daring, the largest escort type ship ever built by the Royal Navy, and the nuclear-powered, 97-metre HMS Astute submarine.
Paramarine and its onboard variants are used by governments, shipbuilders, ship designers and academic institutions in ten other countries around the world, from Australia and Japan, to the USA, Canada and Sweden. It was also used to design the Eurydice trimaran, shortlisted for the World Superyacht – Young Designer of the Year Award 2009.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 12 Feb 2011 12:54

The P-17A is based on the P-17 hull. Where foreign expertise is being sought is with super structure design and signature management. The Navy was looking at foreign collaboration not for design purposes but to cut build time. The basic design is indeed DGND

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Feb 2011 20:35

EMAL is supposed to be on the next US supercarriers,but the RN might use the latest EMCAT system,supposedly superior even to EMAL for its QE carriers.This should be seriously examined by the In for its IAC-2 65,000t+ carrier being thought of.IAC-1 will only be operational between 2015-2017.IAC-2 will as mentioned an above post only by 2020! The advent of long endurance UAV/UCAVs,some with days of endurance will be swiftly used by carriers replacing large aircraft like the E-2D.It also makes no sense using an E-2D from land bases as its range and endurance are inferior to the latest UAVs.Instead,if we wish to use a land based aircraft,the IN shoudl simply buy extra AEW aircraft being jointly developed by India and Brazil using the Embraer platform.Commonality makes sens eespecially when the strategic thinking inevitably embraces theatre operations and theatre commanders,in command of a variety of assets and platforms from all services instead of tri-service joint-ops. The KA-31s and new AEW Merlins using the Searchwater radar will fit the bill along with carrier/warship based UAVs.far more cost-effective too.The recent Vindhyagirir tragedy revelaed that she was a UAV command ship.I'm told that she's been refloated and hopefully will be salvaged and repaired to rejoin service when ready.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 07:47

from livefist post, here is the RFQ floated for new IN LPHD class ships

http://www.tenders.gov.in/viewtenddoc.a ... no=1&td=TD

salient points
- max 200 m long
- max draught 08 mts
- well deck for LST, LCAC
- parking deck for upto MBT/IFV size
- heli deck for heavy helis upto 35 tons
- 2 radars for search
- CIWS and anti torpedo weapons

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 07:53

imho since the IN is not planning a serious invasion of any mainland country, perhaps a el-cheapo soln built somewhere near merchant stds like the dutch rotterdam class (166m, 12000t but 33 tanks max and 600 marines) or RN Bay class - than a 200m mistral class (through deck for VSTOL jets and hangar deck), or the even bigger 230m Juan carlos class makes sense to me.

Aus is already sniffing around a RN bay class due to be mothballed
http://www.smh.com.au/national/navy-eye ... 19y3x.html

if we do plan hit and run raids on well defended chinese enclaves like gwader or some myanmarese ELINT dens maybe fast carrier strike force will do the job without needing a marine force. even land based air could do it albeit without the shakinah effect of a line of battleships standing off gwader and pounding the shore facilities.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 13 Feb 2011 11:09

Philip wrote:EMAL is supposed to be on the next US supercarriers,but the RN might use the latest EMCAT system,supposedly superior even to EMAL for its QE carriers.

No, the UK will be using EMALS. They may use some domestic suppliers for the power converters and sundry stuff, but the core system will be from the US.

The UK made a small-scale demonstrator to show that they could, the US built a functional system to go to war. There is a difference

Philip wrote:This should be seriously examined by the In for its IAC-2 65,000t+ carrier being thought of.

EMALS would make a lot of sense for the IAC-2

Philip wrote:The advent of long endurance UAV/UCAVs,some with days of endurance will be swiftly used by carriers replacing large aircraft like the E-2D.It also makes no sense using an E-2D from land bases as its range and endurance are inferior to the latest UAVs.

Please list all the UAVs with the capabilities of the E-2D with longer range and endurance.

Sure there are smaller UAVs that have a longer endurance, but they aren't anywhere near as powerful. To carry as big a radar, a UAV would have to be near E-2 size.

Philip wrote:The KA-31s and new AEW Merlins using the Searchwater radar will fit the bill

They aren't in the same class as the E-2D.

Philip wrote:along with carrier/warship based UAVs

How many carrier-based UAVs of any type are available? How many carrier-based AEW UAVs are in development? How long would development of a carrier-based AEW UAV take?

Frankly the creature you describe is mythical and will remain so for a very, very long time to come.

r sawant · Post by **r sawant** » 13 Feb 2011 15:26

How many carrier-based AEW UAVs are in development? How long would development of a carrier-based AEW UAV take?

Northrop Grumman X-47B UCAS (Unmanned Combat Air System)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-K4pk25zD4

username changed to r sawant
Rahul.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2011 15:56

isnt that a future naval UCAV rather than a naval AEW ? looking at its size I doubt it can mount anywhere near a E2D radar and ofcourse it has no onboard controllers (E2 has 4 iirc)

they might send this ucav in against heavily defended targets in concert with growlers I suppose...

Sukhoi had something called Zond with a triangular dish...on paper only.

I do not believe E2D will be replaced anytime soon...not for 2 decades for sure.