India-US Strategic News and Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 00:53

Altair, We know what you think but try to spens some time on what the guy is saying. The killing of Rajiv gandhi was a targetted one to stop Indian elite dea in theri tracks. After Rajiv Gandhi it has been incremental in global approach. The whole INC is in seat warmer mode.

Its like in a network the central node got eliminated.

Yes by LTTE but who prompted them?
Were they alone single handedly decided to eliminate RG?

All those guys you cite are afraidd they will meet RG's fate.
Only ABV dared to break the paradigm in 1998. As reward he got sanctions, Kargil, Parliment attack and endured all of them.
Yet in 2004 all those who are so afraid colluded to prevent him from getting re-elected. And they have been merrily looting the nation since then.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 03 Apr 2012 01:15

ramana wrote:Altair, We know what you think but try to spens some time on what the guy is saying. The killing of Rajiv gandhi was a targetted one to stop Indian elite dea in theri tracks. After Rajiv Gandhi it has been incremental in global approach. The whole INC is in seat warmer mode.

Its like in a network the central node got eliminated.

Yes by LTTE but who prompted them?
Were they alone single handedly decided to eliminate RG?

All those guys you cite are afraidd they will meet RG's fate.
Only ABV dared to break the paradigm in 1998. As reward he got sanctions, Kargil, Parliment attack and endured all of them.
Yet in 2004 all those who are so afraid colluded to prevent him from getting re-elected. And they have been merrily looting the nation since then.

Whole thing is decadal plan to install their Gandhi. Sure they installed hitting at Hindu weakness along with many smokescreens so their Gandhi is untouched.

Sen_K · Post by **Sen_K** » 03 Apr 2012 02:04

US announces $10 million bounty on Hafiz Saeed''s head

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 03 Apr 2012 03:15

Didnt PVNR try for N? Then unkil found out and they backed off?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 03 Apr 2012 03:21

ramana wrote:The killing of Rajiv gandhi was a targetted one to stop Indian elite dea in theri tracks. After Rajiv Gandhi it has been incremental in global approach. The whole INC is in seat warmer mode.

The explanation doesn't fit the circumstances. INC was in seat warmer mode in 80s as well under Indira and Rajiv governments even though Chinese economic policy had changed by then. If anything, Rajiv assasination allowed PVNR to get India to change. ABV followed up with more changes whether selling off PSUs or increasing investment in education. Things are regressing back to seat warming mode ever since MMS and indirectly Sonia took charge.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 03 Apr 2012 03:39

X-POSTED from the TSP thread....

Two Year Sentence for Man Accused in Pakistan Spy Plot

by Kim Barker
ProPublica, March 30, 2012, 6:09 p.m.

http://www.propublica.org/article/2-yea ... n-spy-plot

A Kashmiri-American accused of funneling money from Pakistan’s main spy agency to American politicians in a scheme to influence U.S. policy on Kashmir was sentenced to two years in federal prison Friday.

Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai, 62, of Fairfax, Va., had pleaded guilty in December to conspiracy and tax violations in connection with moving at least $3.5 million from Pakistan’s government and the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, or ISI, mostly through his charity, the Kashmiri American Council. <SNIP>
......

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 03 Apr 2012 03:55

vera_k wrote:
ramana wrote:The killing of Rajiv gandhi was a targetted one to stop Indian elite dea in theri tracks. After Rajiv Gandhi it has been incremental in global approach. The whole INC is in seat warmer mode.
The explanation doesn't fit the circumstances. INC was in seat warmer mode in 80s as well under Indira and Rajiv governments even though Chinese economic policy had changed by then. If anything, Rajiv assasination allowed PVNR to get India to change. ABV followed up with more changes whether selling off PSUs or increasing investment in education. Things are regressing back to seat warming mode ever since MMS and indirectly Sonia took charge.

Vera, that's not entirely the case. I'm no fan of the Die-Nasty, but it's true that the preliminary wheels of disinvestment were being set in motion during Rajiv Gandhi's time (even though much of this was done by unscrupulous characters like Sam Pitroda.) In a sense the political climate that allowed PVNR to seize the initiative and begin liberalization was, very slowly, initiated during the RG years.

Another important thing that happened in RG's time was a relative democratization of the Cong (I) [this process has been 400% reversed by the Sonia Maino UPA since 2004, of course.] That's why people like Arun Singh etc. could speak their mind without fear of retribution, compared to the stark autocracy of Indira Gandhi's day. In fact, that's why RG himself was openly pilloried by many of his ex-cabinet colleagues in 1989.

But the most important thing to note is that RG did not shy away from exercising India's strategic interests. He was the one who sent IPKF to Sri Lanka, and put down the Maldives coup. It was in his time that Brasstacks was conducted, inducing much shalwar-wetting by the TSPA; and it was in his time that the PLA got a lingering bloody nose at Sumdorong Chu, after which they became utterly quiet on the Indo-China border for nearly two decades [following the 2004 UPA victory, they're back with renewed attempts to intimidate us.]

As much as the changing economic climate in India, it was the relative strategic assertiveness of the RG regime that caused major heartburn in the West. Indira Gandhi herself became relatively passive after 1975 (Sikkim liberation) and did not, for instance, allow the Israelis to bomb Kahuta from Indian airbases... RG reversed this trend pretty consistently, and we should give him credit for that, even though the strategic vision was actually engendered by General Sundarji and others. In fact, when William Avery says we should have gone back into SL and got Pirabhakaran in 1991... he is regretting that RG's foreign policy was shelved rather than expanded upon.

PVNR, definitely our best Congress PM, was very shrewd. He saw the implications of the RG assassination and figured out where to draw the line. He pursued economic liberalization much more strongly than Rajiv Gandhi had, knowing that the results would be welcome among Western Hamiltonians. However, he chose to lay low on the strategic assertiveness, even deferring the N-test until ABV took over.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 Apr 2012 04:00

>> did not, for instance, allow the Israelis to bomb Kahuta from Indian airbases... that caused major heartburn in the West.

By West, I guess you don't mean the US because they were certainly against the bombing of Kahuta.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 03 Apr 2012 04:02

I didn't mean that bombing Kahuta would have pleased the West. I meant that in general IG had become more passive than she used to be in the '70s... and by contrast, RG was assertive on MANY strategic fronts. THAT caused heartburn in the West.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Apr 2012 04:12

Ramanna,absolutely spot on.The LTTE built the belt bomb,but who gave them the target? Prabhakaran wasn't such a fool to imagine that retribution of the most "extreme prejuudice" would be used against him and the LTTE unless he was assured that India would retreat into its shell.How was this possible,unless he had information from deep sources within the Indian establishment that such action ( a return by the IPKF) would never take place? For this he had to rely upon accurate info from "friendly sources" and there was only one superpower with the resources,who was also his clandestine backer to give him the green light.

As Rudra has said,

But the most important thing to note is that RG did not shy away from exercising India's strategic interests. He was the one who sent IPKF to Sri Lanka, and put down the Maldives coup. It was in his time that Brasstacks was conducted, inducing much shalwar-wetting by the TSPA; and it was in his time that the PLA got a lingering bloody nose at Sumdorong Chu, after which they became utterly quiet on the Indo-China border for nearly two decades [following the 2004 UPA victory, they're back with renewed attempts to intimidate us.]

Rajiv G had to be cut to size or cut down.In fact how did the Bofors scam first see the light of day? It was in Scandinavia,where the US has enormous historic influence and capabilities. In whose interests was Bofors exposed for? It is also not coincidental that another independent minded PM,Olaf Palme was also assassinated,who reportedly had a close rapport with RG and his plan for global N-disarmament.If you join the dots you will see the pattern emerge.

Discovering the truth about the assassinations of both leaders is like trying to illuminate the dark side of the moon.The two conspiracies have their connections.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Apr 2012 04:33

Philip ji,

it's Ramana, not Ramanna. just FYI.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 03 Apr 2012 05:05

Rudradev wrote:Vera, that's not entirely the case.

For all of that, the domestic agenda was a disaster, whether it was the anti-Sikh riots and the judicial immunity for the perps or Shah Bano legislation. The Rajiv Gandhi administration, also enjoyed a 2/3rds majority in Parliament, so could have chosen to pretty much push through any modernising change it wished, yet it was content with taking the country back towards the 7th century.

As for the assasination, once again the question is why? In 1991, the USSR was defeated, so India had lost its patron. Limiting Indian options by bankrupting the Indian economy was quite easy, and did in fact happen to some extent during the run up to the gulf war.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 06:17

shyamd wrote:Didnt PVNR try for N? Then unkil found out and they backed off?

The socalled super efficient TN wasn't ready so he backed off.

RD, In one of RG's speeches before Siripermbudur he did say that he would re-look the nuclear question.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 06:24

Devesh, Whats in a name?

Philip always calls me that since 2000!

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 03 Apr 2012 07:25

vera_k wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Vera, that's not entirely the case.
For all of that, the domestic agenda was a disaster, whether it was the anti-Sikh riots and the judicial immunity for the perps or Shah Bano legislation. The Rajiv Gandhi administration, also enjoyed a 2/3rds majority in Parliament, so could have chosen to pretty much push through any modernising change it wished, yet it was content with taking the country back towards the 7th century.

As for the assasination, once again the question is why? In 1991, the USSR was defeated, so India had lost its patron. Limiting Indian options by bankrupting the Indian economy was quite easy, and did in fact happen to some extent during the run up to the gulf war.

Sant longowal and the punjab accord was his agenda not the riots in Delhi. He did bring in C-DOT. C-DAC,So was projecting Indian force via IPKF, Brasstacks and Sumdorong chu or Maldives. The 'IT' industry got its fillip but yes Shah-bano and Babri masjid were his doings too. The looming loss of UP/Haryana (Tikait) played into that.

Would a super-power really be required to urge LTTE - in my hostel were folks who wrote LTTE on their door while IPKF was fighting them, I had a colleague who distributed sweets the day the new came that Rajiv Gandhi had died. We were working for a major IT company in Europe.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Apr 2012 09:59

Raman(n)a,what's in a name? A rose by any extra letter would still ....!

I make that mistake cos I know someone with the same name diff. spelling.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 10:02

No problem. Besides you honor me with that name!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Apr 2012 10:58

it was meant as 'fyi'...no offence meant. peace!

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 03 Apr 2012 13:12

And now for the redneck hill billy perspective, check the comments out.

US offers $10 million bounty for founder of Pakistani militant group

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/04/03 ... z1qxfZISLr

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 03 Apr 2012 13:46

US wants India to lift import ban on dairy products

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... ef=wl_home

The US has sought to impress upon India to lift the ban on American poultry products, arguing that they do not pose a human health risk as is being asserted by India.

“The United States maintains that the presence of paratuberculosis in dairy products does not pose a human health risk, and India should not make elimination of this bacterium a condition for issuing a sanitary export certificate for US dairy products,” the US Trade Representatives (USTR) has said in a report.(Paratuberculosis or Johne's disease is a contagious, chronic and sometimes fatal infection that primarily affects the small intestine of ruminants. It is caused by the bacterium Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis.Paratuberculosis is a reportable disease in some states of the US.)

Since 2003, it said, India has imposed unwarranted SPS (Sanitary and Phytosanitary) requirements on dairy imports, which have essentially precluded US access to India’s dairy market, one of the largest in the world.

For example, India requires the US Government to certify that any US-origin milk destined for India has been treated to ensure the destruction of paratuberculosis, which according to India, is linked to Crohn’s Disease.

“Despite repeated requests from the United States, India has not provided scientific evidence to substantiate this assertion, and has declined to take into account evidence to the contrary submitted by the United States,” the report said.

The Indian import certificate for pork requires that importers make an attestation that the imported pork does not contain any residues of pesticides, veterinary drugs, mycotoxins, or other chemicals above the MRLs prescribed in international standards, the report said.

However, these certificates fail to identify specific compounds and their corresponding international limits, the USTR said.

The US has requested India’s authorities to perform a risk assessment to support its restrictions on pork imports and continues to press India to lift the restrictions, it added.

Observing that India maintains zero-tolerance standards for certain plant quarantine pests such as weed seeds and ergot, which block US wheat and barley imports, the report said bilateral discussions to resolve these issues, including at the senior official level, have achieved little success to date.

On June 28, 2011, US and Indian officials discussed this issue, and India agreed to collaborate further by exchanging ergot strains and testing them on barley under controlled conditions, it said.

Referring to its March 6 request for consultations with India under the dispute settlement provisions of WTO regarding import prohibitions on certain US agricultural exports, the report said India’s import prohibitions are purportedly for the purpose of preventing the entry of avian influenza.

“The United States is concerned that India has not provided a valid, scientifically-based justification for the import prohibitions,” it said.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Apr 2012 17:05

Guys, I know a lot of discussion on that US diplomat's view that India would have become a super power onlee if it had responded to RG's death by LTTE and brought Prabhakaran for trial. What struck about that view is the breathtaking condescension. I mean, India has been non responsive to any number of atrocities heaped on it, especially USA's TFTA non-NATO all-lie, the TSP abomination. And he finds nothing wrong with that, but somehow he picks India's non response to RG's assassination as unworthy of a super power.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 03 Apr 2012 17:21

So Rajiv Gandhi was killed by the CIA? All we need is for everyone to wear red hats and go on Indian TV channels a la Indian version of Zaid Hamid.

Veluppillai Prabhakaran was a megalomaniacal fascist who never forgot an insult and took everything personally. He ordered the killings of his own group leaders and other Tamil leaders who had offended him at one time or another. He hated Rajiv because of Rajiv's role in the IPKF debacle.

But all of this can be ignored if one wants to obsess about an overarching conspiracy. Why stop with the US. Let's bring in Opus Dei, the Bilderberg group, the Elders of Zion and Skull and Bones society while we are at it.

Maybe we can make this into a Bollywood movie called "Agent Nirodh"

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Apr 2012 17:30

R-man,

I agree with you on the conspiracy stuff, but tell me, don't you find that diplomat's BS insulting? I mean, Pakis have been hitting India mercilessly, with US support, and this guy is silent on India's non response to those, but somehow not getting Prabhakaran makes India unworthy of a super power. Give me a break.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 03 Apr 2012 17:36

CRS,

What diplomat? I've never heard that story before. I trust your words but is there any link?

Condescension has always been a part of Western "analyses" of India, but it has been coming down of late. Yes, it is galling at times but I've developed a sort of tolerance for it.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 03 Apr 2012 19:37

Rangudu-ji, I agree that the maniac did not need any urging. (on a side note, it was delightful that he died while running, and not by cyanide capsule as he urged others to). As I noted a few posts above, there were enough deluded LTTE supporters on Indian side - like my colleague at work or engineering mates who rooted for LTTE vs IPKF.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 03 Apr 2012 20:42

viv wrote:Rangudu-ji, I agree that the maniac did not need any urging. (on a side note, it was delightful that he died while running, and not by cyanide capsule as he urged others to). As I noted a few posts above, there were enough deluded LTTE supporters on Indian side - like my colleague at work or engineering mates who rooted for LTTE vs IPKF.

You must carry the photo of executed half-naked son of the maniac and flaunt it at will.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Apr 2012 20:46

Altair wrote: You must carry the photo of executed half-naked son of the maniac and flaunt it at will.

Is there a link to the photo. I need it as a desktop background image.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 03 Apr 2012 21:01

shiv wrote:
Altair wrote: You must carry the photo of executed half-naked son of the maniac and flaunt it at will.
Is there a link to the photo. I need it as a desktop background image.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2012 21:04

it comes in google images under "prabhakaran son" search term.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Apr 2012 21:40

Altair wrote:
shiv wrote: Is there a link to the photo. I need it as a desktop background image.
http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/sha ... 82_370.jpg

Many thanks. Is there any supporting info about this being a product of that ba$tard Hafeez Saeed's loins?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Apr 2012 22:15

CRamS wrote:Guys, I know a lot of discussion on that US diplomat's view that India would have become a super power onlee if it had responded to RG's death by LTTE and brought Prabhakaran for trial. What struck about that view is the breathtaking condescension. I mean, India has been non responsive to any number of atrocities heaped on it, especially USA's TFTA non-NATO all-lie, the TSP abomination. And he finds nothing wrong with that, but somehow he picks India's non response to RG's assassination as unworthy of a super power.

It is fake and this is a provokation for India sending IPKF to Colombo. It is a seen as a geopolitical move by India after 1947 to assert in the world stage. They cut it off by going after RG. India had to wait until 1998 to make its next move in the world stage.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 03 Apr 2012 22:29

Acharya ji, RG had lost power in 1991 and there was no hope of him coming to power in that election and with the economy in dog house, I doubt if RG was worth that much to cut him short by powers that be. Before 1989, may be but definately not in 1991.
LTTE did what came to them best that is blow up leaders left , right and center.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Apr 2012 22:30

It is about the dynasty based pwoer which can come back any time. They are not naive not to understand the Indian politics. They may not have anticipated his end but they had to give some signals. Sr Bush statement after his assassination gives some clue that it was not what they had planned.
Non of the 'non state' actors in the sub continent will make a move against any leader in the region without the blessings of the super powers. This needs to be understood. This includes khalistanis. Hold of the external agencies are strong.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2012 22:34

what did he say?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 03 Apr 2012 22:35

Why would they want to get rid of the dynasty? Dynasties have died a natural death in India since Maurya empire, and have acted as a limit on Indian power.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Apr 2012 22:37

Once the Indian leaders get the habit of making the right geo political move and expand Indian region of infleunce then it becomes difficult to keep it under the lid. The juggernaut cannot be stopped.
India cannot be regional power. This is a fact.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Apr 2012 22:39

vera_k, RG's comeback showed that the dynasty was re-emerging. Please do look at things with open mind and not CT this and that.
Last ten years almost every CT has come true.
Every terrorist group against India has strong outside backers.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 03 Apr 2012 22:41

Altair wrote: You must carry the photo of executed half-naked son of the maniac and flaunt it at will.

Poor child! The maniac neither thought of his son's safety nor of the child-soldiers he forced into war. When war came to his doorstep, he ran instead of taking cyanide like he asked others to. It was a happy day when he and his terrorist organization was decimated. It is sad that his child died for no fault of his own but for being the maniac's son. Truly unfortunate, as was the death of the 50+ who died when Prabhakaran ordered Dhanu to blow herself up. Truly unfortunate as the Indians who died during the Chennai airport bombing or when he killed EPRLF leadership in Chennai. I'm sure you know many more instances.

He probably needed very little urging, if that, to attack RG on Indian soil. He had already successfully, and without retaliation, killed Indians on Indian soil (see above).

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 03 Apr 2012 22:56

Shivji,
The photo posted is prabhakarans son,not hafeez pigs piglet.

Altairji,
I think it is wrong to gloat over the death of prabhakarans son.
The real villains are anglo-amirkhan christist terrorists.

Prabhakaran was a tool in the hands of the real terrorists.He was a megalomaniac/fascist no doubt,but he was not intrinsically anti-India.He was just a pawn in the game.Makes no sense to gloat over a boys death.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Apr 2012 23:18

there is an almost desperate need to relieve the outside forces of any doing in RG's death. lots of justifications, and repetitive spiels about PK's "fascist" thinking, etc. it is as if the very idea needs to be rooted out, that forces outside could have had a hand. interesting, indeed. such "rationalism"!