Indian Naval Discussion

[Viv S]

Assume that waves are 3 Meter high, what can be unloaded and loaded into the plane with such high waves? It would still be more useful for India to build short airstrips on North Andaman and Lakshadeep island chain. It would be more prudent to depend on land based air planes/ships/hovercraft.

3 metre waves would be at high seas. Once you're tied down at the jetty/pier/wharf, the sea isn't an issue unless the cargo is being transported is exceptionally heavy. Also, maintaining an airstrip on an island in monsoonal climates is easier said than done - asphalt, labour, road-roller, landing lights (for operations in poor visibility) -> generators and associated equipment, and so on. After all, Japan is no stranger to inclement weather.

[sarabpal.s]

Dear did any body check the pics I post it, in one pic it is cleared that shinmaywa can land at sea than come out of water and parked on the ground with very samll space it dont need anystrip to land but just parking area where it can offload the cargo and park self in case of severe weather,

shinmaywa is very promising aircraft for IOR Indian ocean either lakshdweep or Andaman Nicobar

[Singha]

shinmeiwa is a veteran in sea plane design. I have pix of their older product in JMSDF service from a mid 80s salamander book on world naval air arms. the seas and climate in north pacific is hostile and cold...if these things have been operating there for decades they should be able to manage the relatively placid climes in the IOR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Meiwa_US-1A

[tsarkar]

SNaik, thanks, your posts are informative as always. Would you have any open source performance specifications of the EO suite?

PR material claims can deal with 3 M (10 Ft) waves.

Assume that waves are 3 Meter high, what can be unloaded and loaded into the plane with such high waves? It would still be more useful for India to build short airstrips on North Andaman and Lakshadeep island chain. It would be more prudent to depend on land based air planes/ships/hovercraft.

SM US-2 has proved its mettle over the years by rescuing US & Japanese fighter pilots ditching over the Pacific beyond the range of any land based helicopter. This was a life threatening prospect especially if no naval or mercantile ships were in vicinity of the ejection. They also support submarines with emergency medivac. Their USP is range and STOL performance over water.

SM US-2 is a logistical must for SU-30 and Chakra/Arihant operations beyond A&N. There are more than enough strips in A&N built by the Allies and Japanese in WW2.

[SNaik]

Of course, tsarkar, here you are
Sfera-02:
http://www.eng.npo-karat.ru/catalog/11-5/

MTK-201M is a general-purpose surveillance and tracking system which can act as backup FCS. They are produced by UOMZ enterprize which is the main producer of targeting systems for attack helicopters, using the same components. MTK-201M will be present on Vikramaditya as well.
http://uomz.ru/eng/index.php?page=products&pid=100174

[Kersi D]

Shinmaywa SS3 is very promising aircraft to cover the gap in vast Indian coast It also share engine with C130 aircraft Indian received recently.


Shinmaywa SS3

The problem with Amphibian plane, is that it requires calm waters to take off and land. If the waters are choppy then it cannot land and take off. This puts them at a very severe disadvantage in case of inclement weather. In an era where all-weather is the default option, rather than a niche capability, these planes simply cannot compete with their land based counterparts. In terms of range and endurance, they offer nothing new.

But can we not use them in creeks and estuaries ? For example Mumbai. It is well nigh impossible to have a naval station with a runway in Mumbai. But these amphibs can be hangared in Mumbai and they use the Mumbai harbour as their runaway.

If I am not mistaken these birds can land and take off at Sea State 3 or at times even Sea State 5. This is what was told to me by Beriev people at an Aero India

[member_20036]

State-Run Mazagon Dock Confirms JV with Pipavav Defence to Build Warships and Submarines
Posted on: May 04, 2012
India’s largest private defence shipyard Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering has been chosen by state-run Mazagon Dock as a joint venture partner to build warships and submarines for Indian Navy. While the joint venture was stalled earlier due to a row over the Mazagon Dock’s selection policy, the joint venture now stands confirmed by the government.
According to Nikhil Gandhi, chairman of Pipavav Defence, the 50:50 joint venture named Mazagon Dock Pipavav will implement part of the existing orders of Mazagon Dock of Rs 1,00,000 crore ($21.69 billion) and also bid for future defence contracts in India. The venture has been established to fast-track warship and submarine contracts held currently by the Mazagon Dock.
This crucial joint venture was put on hold since other private sector giants and Pipavav Shipyard’s rivalsincluding Larsen & Toubro and ABG Shipyard had complained to the government over the inconsistencies in the selection process by Mazagon docks. However, Defence Ministry has overruled any allegation of foul play after studying the complaints received from the other private shipyards. This tie-up will give Pipavav Shipyard a distinct edge over its rivals such as L&T and ABG Shipyard who are also up for a chunk of the defence pie.
Pipavav Shipyard covers roughly 200 hectares with approximately 720 m of sea front and 685 m of outfit quay. Besides being the largest shipyard in India , Pipavav is also one of the largest drydock in the world . The latest joint venture would afford better utilisation of Pipavav's shipyard which is considered as one of the most modern in India. Mazagon Dock will now use Pipavav's facility in Gujarat to build orders that it has on hand .
In an earlier statement, Pipavav Chairman revealed that the yard was equipped to build five warships or ten smaller ones a year . The Mazagon order book, with part execution alone, is expected tokeep the company busy for over 15 years. Pipavav had also stated that it would require five yards of Pipavav's size to complete the Mazagon Dock's pending orders.
The Indian government had formulated a policy in 2011 which led to the public-private partnerships in the defence sector. The state-run Mazagon Dock was the first to be exposed to this collaboration and the rest of the state-owned shipyards will be gearing towards the same owing to the backlog and size of defence orders in the country.

http://www.defencenow.com/news/664/stat ... rines.html

[tsarkar]

Of course, tsarkar, here you are Sfera-02: http://www.eng.npo-karat.ru/catalog/11-5/ MTK-201M is a general-purpose surveillance and tracking system which can act as backup FCS. They are produced by UOMZ enterprize which is the main producer of targeting systems for attack helicopters, using the same components. MTK-201M will be present on Vikramaditya as well. http://uomz.ru/eng/index.php?page=products&pid=100174

Thanks SNaik, EO is always a better way of tracking anti ship missiles because its completely passive and cannot be spoofed. IN now has two types of EO FCS for AK-630, the Sfera on Teg and Vikramaditya and the EON-51 onboard Deepak and Shakti.

Noticed something else - D55 has something that resembles a single 324 mm TT on its port side adjacent to the rear funnel. http://s019.radikal.ru/i639/1205/0e/3b0c5dcf5e83.jpg and http://s019.radikal.ru/i644/1205/18/3803a605c6a6.jpg No such equipment on the starboard side http://s004.radikal.ru/i208/1205/9d/8c0d24741526.jpg or on D54. Must be an experimental setup, or something else altogether.

[hnair]

In Andaman context, not just the sea state (wave heights), the gusts themselves will cause damage to moored crafts. The reefs + basic breakwater will sort of handle waves and dissipate them to a great extent. But the Bay of Bengal cyclones have violent winds. They can easily rip apart a tethered-down plane, even if left on a normal runway. Unless we have underground shelters around Andaman. But then that sort of negates the advantage of an amphib@remote areas (minimal mooring infra and a few drums of fuel).

However they can be used in West coast a lot - particularly around Gujarat and maybe at some point in high Himalayan lakes

[Kersi D]

Of course, tsarkar, here you are Sfera-02: http://www.eng.npo-karat.ru/catalog/11-5/ MTK-201M is a general-purpose surveillance and tracking system which can act as backup FCS. They are produced by UOMZ enterprize which is the main producer of targeting systems for attack helicopters, using the same components. MTK-201M will be present on Vikramaditya as well. http://uomz.ru/eng/index.php?page=products&pid=100174

Thanks SNaik, EO is always a better way of tracking anti ship missiles because its completely passive and cannot be spoofed. IN now has two types of EO FCS for AK-630, the Sfera on Teg and Vikramaditya and the EON-51 onboard Deepak and Shakti.

Noticed something else - D55 has something that resembles a single 324 mm TT on its port side adjacent to the rear funnel. http://s019.radikal.ru/i639/1205/0e/3b0c5dcf5e83.jpg and http://s019.radikal.ru/i644/1205/18/3803a605c6a6.jpg No such equipment on the starboard side http://s004.radikal.ru/i208/1205/9d/8c0d24741526.jpg or on D54. Must be an experimental setup, or something else altogether.

Where are the Brahmos VLS ? It is to be the the place of aft SA-N-1 SAM launcher.

[kit]

Just wondering if India had sensor fusion technologies ., it could just dispose of a lot of radars and other gizmos, save a lot on weight and power requirement and make it more effective and stealthy too.Maybe this is too much of a generalisation, but its the only way to the future.American future combantants just have 'one'

[SNaik]

Where are the Brahmos VLS ? It is to be the the place of aft SA-N-1 SAM launcher.

http://s004.radikal.ru/i208/1205/9d/8c0d24741526.jpg
Just aft of the aft stack. A bit raised 8-pack VLS instalated longitudinally.

[Austin]

Just wondering if India had sensor fusion technologies ., it could just dispose of a lot of radars and other gizmos, save a lot on weight and power requirement and make it more effective and stealthy too.Maybe this is too much of a generalisation, but its the only way to the future.American future combantants just have 'one'

The Command and Control system jointly developed by India-Russia for the P-17 frigate has sensor fusion and Co-operative Engagement Capability similar to American Ageis combatant

[Singha]

maybe kit meant something like the SPY-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SPY-3

[Austin]

SPY-3 is a work in progress and it will evolve , right now SPY-2 plus is the work horse and IN is slowly developing its netcentric capability along the lines of USN....they have a 10-15 years lead in this area the row is catching up with them.

[Roperia]

Security situation around Indian Ocean Region worrisome, says Defence Minister Antony

...
Mr Antony highlighted the Navy's ability to play a leading role in ensuring peace and stability in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).

"The security situation in our immediate neighbourhood has become really complex. Considering the challenges in the IOR, it is essential to maintain high levels of operational preparedness at all times," he said.

On prevailing factors in the region which needs consideration, he said, "On the one hand, there are some political developments. On the other hand, a number of other factors are a cause for worry and need to be factored into our preparations, both in the short-term and long-term."
...
"Security of maritime activity through sea-lanes in Indian Ocean is of crucial importance for the economic prosperity of our nation and that of the world," he said.
...
"It (INS Chakra) has placed us in a select group of Navies that operate such a platform. We must ensure that Chakra is utilised effectively to harness its real potential and also evolve operational concepts for future platforms," Mr Antony said.

Observing that the Navy is on its course to acquire potent platforms which will add to its blue water capability, he said, "Induction of INS Vikramaditya in the near future, the potent MiG 29 Ks, as well as P-8I Rong-Range Maritime Reconnaissance Aircraft would strengthen the Navy further." Mr Antony also highlighted the recent maiden successful test flight of Naval version of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Navy) in this context.

Expressing satisfaction over Navy's commitment to indigenization, he said, "44 out of 48 ships and submarines, presently on order, are being constructed in India. The Navy has also maintained close liaison with DRDO and participated actively in research and development projects."

Cautioning that the satisfactory pace of indigenization should not lead to "complacence", he said, "Public Sector shipyards must speed up construction of warships and submarines and further modernise the infrastructure and technology of ship-production."

The Defence Minister also exhorted the Navy and other agencies to put in more efforts to meet the timelines of the ongoing projects.

"This requires a synergy and active cooperation between Navy and all other concerned agencies. Such synergy is imperative for achieving self-reliance and ultimately reducing our dependence on foreign suppliers, particularly in areas of advanced technology," he said.

Stressing on the government's commitment to improving the service conditions of its armed forces, Mr Antony said, "To increase the attractiveness of Navy as a career, the Defence Ministry has taken several initiatives for grant of Modified Assured Career Progression Scheme and approved the honorary rank of Chief Petty Officers (CPO) for sailors."

"Our government will continue to provide the necessary funds to construct accommodation for Service personnel under the Married Accommodation Project for officers and sailors," he added.

Short term threats - piracy and boat-bound Paki Jihadi tourists terrorists.

Long term threats - Chinese naval presence in IOR.

The only recent political development was the coup in Maldives. Other than that all these have been in the public domain for years, why this sudden alarm then? Is there something I'm missing?

[Yogi_G]

Indian Navy warships for two month deployment in South East Asia

This will not go unnoticed by the Chinese. A 2 month deployment slicing through South China sea and borders of China is somehting they wont overlook. This is more of demonstrating our expeditionary/long endurance (albeit limited) capabilities to the Chinese than initiating friendly port calls.

[member_19648]

This will not go unnoticed by the Chinese. A 2 month deployment slicing through South China sea and borders of China is somehting they wont overlook. This is more of demonstrating our expeditionary/long endurance (albeit limited) capabilities to the Chinese than initiating friendly port calls.

It maybe so but the deployment is a goodwill gesture and one of the stops would be Shanghai. Also, currently a Chinese warship is visiting India with Indians on board, so more of reciprocation than show of power.

[ramana]

Hindu reports INS Vindhygiri damaged in collision with mv Nordlake to be destroyed as it is a hazard

INS Vindhyagiri to be destroyed

Court allows Army :?:to dispose of warship, grounded after collision

The Bombay High Court on Tuesday allowed the destruction of INS Vindhyagiri, after the Navy said the warship might explode due the presence of ammunition which could not be removed from the vessel. The ship has been grounded since it collided with a merchant vessel, m.v. Nordlake in January 2011.

“The court allowed us to destroy the vessel pursuant to the agreement, reached between us and the opposite side, that the plan of the ship will be with the court and that m.v. Nordlake will be granted one more survey of the ship,” Advocate Dhiren Shah, solicitor for the Navy, told The Hindu.

The Navy application said if the ship exploded at the place where it is berthed, it might cause huge damage to the naval assets and merchant vessels passing nearby.

Mr. Shah said the decision to dispose of the ship was taken mutually, and that the Navy submitted minutes of meetings between both parties to the court. “We also submitted a report of a central agency of arms experts, which carried out a physical survey of the ship and recommended that the ship should be destroyed, as the explosives can't be removed,” he said.

Twelve chambers of the warship were full of ammunition. Of these, the Navy could empty 11 chambers. One chamber filled with explosives remained submerged in water for long, thus prompting a survey by the experts, who opined that touching the explosives might lead to an explosion.

Though m.v. Nordlake initially opposed the Navy application, filed two months ago in the court, which is hearing disputes over damages, both parties arrived at consensus. Official sources told The Hindu that at least four joint surveys had been conducted previously by the Navy and m.v. Nordlake.

“We will now take her into the deep sea and destroy her by using her as target practice,” an official said. The process is expected to take three weeks.

We had along discussion when it happened:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1020969

How come the mv nordlake got to survey the vessel? Werent there reports that the m.v. Nordlake caused the accident?

tsarkar can you tell us whats up?

[SNaik]

Official Vikramaditya data from Nevsky Design Bureau
L = 284.7
W = 59.8
D = 9.6
8 boilers, 4 steam turbines each rated at 50000 HP, 29 knots, range 6750 miles
Airwing 30 aircraft: (24 MiG-29K + 2 Chetak/ALH + 4 Ka-31) - strike composition
( 21 MiG-29K + 13 helicopters) - multipurpose composition
Russian-designed systems: CIS (Ledorub??? Sigma???), 3D search radar (Podberezovik ET1), ATC and ILS system (Rezistor-K), navigation radars (Kivich???). Crew:1200 + air personnel.

[Austin]

That 3D search radar Podberezovik ET1 should have been kept on a high tower for free 360* coverage , like we do for LW08 on most ships ....right now it seems to just see 180 * on the front.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Navy warships for two month deployment in South East Asia

This will not go unnoticed by the Chinese. A 2 month deployment slicing through South China sea and borders of China is somehting they wont overlook. This is more of demonstrating our expeditionary/long endurance (albeit limited) capabilities to the Chinese than initiating friendly port calls.

If you remember when INS Chakra came, one of our ships was visiting the countries around South china sea. It escorted back the nuke sub. That time, IN did not announce. Why announce now? There got to be something.

[SNaik]

That 3D search radar Podberezovik ET1 should have been kept on a high tower for free 360* coverage , like we do for LW08 on most ships ....right now it seems to just see 180 * on the front.

I agree, but look at the island on Nimitz. It's not easy to find a place for such a huge areial.

[Austin]

May be they could put it up at the place where Rezistor-K is there and built another tower for it , they gave premium place for Rezistor , its just that phenomenal capability of Podberezovik is being under utilised , what bad of radar is Podberezovik ? IEEE L band ?

[Roperia]

French Scorpene submarines to roll out in 2015: Antony

[chackojoseph]

Chinese Naval Training Ship Zheng He calls at Indian Port

[Aditya G]

Official Vikramaditya data from Nevsky Design Bureau
L = 284.7
W = 59.8
D = 9.6
8 boilers, 4 steam turbines each rated at 50000 HP, 29 knots, range 6750 miles
Airwing 30 aircraft: (24 MiG-29K + 2 Chetak/ALH + 4 Ka-31) - strike composition
( 21 MiG-29K + 13 helicopters) - multipurpose composition
Russian-designed systems: CIS (Ledorub??? Sigma???), 3D search radar (Podberezovik ET1), ATC and ILS system (Rezistor-K), navigation radars (Kivich???). Crew:1200 + air personnel.

noob pooch pls, what is the name of the radar housed in cylindrical radome?

[SNaik]

May be they could put it up at the place where Rezistor-K is there and built another tower for it , they gave premium place for Rezistor , its just that phenomenal capability of Podberezovik is being under utilised , what bad of radar is Podberezovik ? IEEE L band ?

C band
http://www.smp-salyut.ru/images/list/podber1.pdf

[SNaik]

noob pooch pls, what is the name of the radar housed in cylindrical radome?

Rezistor-K

[John]

May be they could put it up at the place where Rezistor-K is there and built another tower for it , they gave premium place for Rezistor , its just that phenomenal capability of Podberezovik is being under utilised , what bad of radar is Podberezovik ? IEEE L band ?

Isn't the radar primarily for long range air search so it still be able to track targets flying at high altitudes 360 degrees, it's performance will obviously degraded against any low flying targets due to the tower.

[Philip]

Thank goodness for the IN's take on its carrier aviation requirements for its new carriers under construction.It is in stark contrast to the utter confusion which the RN finds itself in regarding the acquisition of the JSF and in what class (1st,2nd,or 3rd!) .

Philip Hammond defends aircraft carrier U-turn

Defence secretary says PM's judgment on jets was right, despite decision to reverse it because of its £5bn cost


Defence secretary Philip Hammond confirms in a Commons statement that the Ministry of Defence will abandon plans to buy its preferred fighter Link to this video

Philip Hammond insisted he would "not blindly pursue" a key defence programme personally endorsed by the prime minister as he announced a U-turn over the type of fighters needed for the military's two new aircraft carriers.

The defence secretary said the delays and costs of putting the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) wanted by Downing Street on the carriers were now too great, and the Ministry of Defence had accepted "our approach must change".

Putting a brave face on the decision, MoD officials admitted it was easy to be clever with hindsight, but rejected suggestions the about-face had been caused by the rush to complete the 2010 strategic defence and security review (SDSR).

In the review, David Cameron demanded the military buy the F35-C version of the JSF, which needs "cats and traps" to launch it from deck. He then mocked Labour for buying the less capable F35-B, which takes off like a harrier jump jet.

But the MoD has pirouetted again, with Hammond telling MPs the costs of converting the carriers to take "cats and traps" had risen so much, and the delays to the F35-C had become so great, it was right to revert back.

Defence officials said the MoD had already spent £40m-£50m to convert one of the carriers. They predicted the total cost of putting "cats and traps" on both of the new ships would total £5bn – 10 times the amount estimated in 2005.

However, a source denied Cameron's decision could be described as a mistake. "Hindsight is an easy thing. We can all make judgments about what happened last week. We know more now than we knew then. The judgment [in 2010] was a reasonable one. It is easy from this position to say we would have made a different choice."

The source said further analysis of costs in recent months had shown "unexpected" problems.

In his statement to the Commons, Hammond also tried to deflect criticism from Downing Street. "The 2010 SDSR decision on carriers was right at the time, but the facts have changed."

The carrier programme has been dogged by delays and technical problems that were compounded by the decision to buy the F35-C. Though it is a better all-round fighter than its sister aircraft, putting "cats and traps" on the ships pushed up costs so much the MoD was told it would have to mothball the first of the carriers, the Queen Elizabeth, as soon as it was built.

By reverting back to the jump jet version of the JSF, which is much closer to production, the Queen Elizabeth should now be ready for operations, equipped with 12 fighters, by 2018.

The decision also means the RAF will fly the "B" version of the JSF, with each aircraft, being built by the US firm Lockheed Martin, now thought to cost between £50m and £100m.

The U-turn was supported by the heads of the three services and the chief of the defence staff, General Sir David Richards, as well as Hammond, the defence source said.

The defence secretary asked Downing Street to endorse the move in March, but was rebuffed.

During sharp exchanges at Westminster, the shadow defence secretary, Jim Murphy, accused the government of wasting two years, and claimed the government's approach was "as incoherent as it is ludicrous".

Murphy called on the prime minister to apologise for his incompetence, and questioned why the government had been in such a rush to scrap the UK's only aircraft carrier, Ark Royal, before a replacement was available.

"Standing at the dispatch box, the prime minister announced his plans to reverse Labour's carrier strike policy, scrap the Harrier, sell Ark Royal, build two carriers but mothball one, sack trainee pilots and downgrade British power at sea.

"But this U-turn has now gone full circle and nothing has been gained. Two years wasted."

The former Labour defence secretary Bob Ainsworth told MPs the government had taken the right decision. The U-turn had brought "some sanity" to the carrier programme, he said. "But I can't go along with the excuse … that the facts have changed," he said.

"The fundamental facts were there at the time and have not changed. We have been in an extremely expensive cul-de-sac for the last 18 months as a result of a shambles of an SDSR."

Hammond said he was "not interested in trading insults about what happened in the past".

[ramana]

Philip, Best option for UK is to become three Island provinces of India with the Queen as the heriditary Governor. Art 370 can be extended to them if they want.

[chackojoseph]

INS Viraat completes 25 years in Indian Navy

[Austin]

Here are the specs of Podberezovik-EТ1 3D radar on Vikramaditya from its developer

http://www.concern-agat.com/products/de ... ezovik-et1

[Philip]

Ramana , I've always maintained that one day Britain will become "the jewel in India's crown"! Mittal,Tata and Cobra beer are the first steps in this direction.Once that happens,there will be no need to return the Koh-I-Noor!

[Singha]

venkys group owns blackburn rovers. hopefully reliance or sahara can buy a bigger club like chelsea or manU. circle will be complete by taking ownership of pieces of their popular culture take their football clubs, some well known whisky distilleries, a slice of rolls royce, barclays, RBS ....

[Prem]

Then Hire the Pakis to keep Britiz law and order.

[arun]

A Photo of INS Teg from PIB.

The photo carries the blurb, “The Union Minister for Commerce & Industry and Textiles, Shri Anand Sharma aboard Indian frigate INS Teg, which is on its maiden voyage. INS Teg parade alongwith the German Frigate Mecklenberg Vorprommen made its first port of call in Hamburg on the occasion of 823rd Harbour Birthday Celebrations of Hamburg Port on May 11, 2012.”:

INS Teg in Hamburg

A short video clip of INS Teg at Hamburg (Start at 1.14):

Youtube

Two more photos from Hamburg of INS Teg from Marine Portraits who seem to have misidentified her as the Type 23 Royal Navy Frigate, HMS St. Albans:

INS Teg 01

INS Teg 02

[Kapil]

Great,
She should be here by next month then1

[arun]

More pictures of INS Teg at Hamburg. This time from a forum called Elbdampfer - Hamburg:

INS Teg 01

INS Teg 02

INS Teg 03