LCA News and Discussions

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Abhibhushan
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Abhibhushan »

SaiK wrote:it did night flights which is lesser in visibility condition but really a bad weather condition. there are night flight videos on tube.
Rain on a fighter windshield is a she-dog. At fighter speeds water molecule hitting the glass gets pulverized. Visibility through the glass becomes zero. That prevents visual combat. It also makes landing a very difficult task.

I would not engage in a dogfight in rain. I would also avoid landing in heavy rain. Apart from visibility, directional control on the ground at high speed on a wet runway is difficult.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

what if a crazy paki manages one? just a wild @$$ guess, but plausible considering soosayeed mentality. if the engines and canopy can handle it, we can take him down whilst raining:

1. we can handle zero visibility using instrumentation and advanced sensors/radars.
2. landing would be a challenge - yes, provided it is not that much puddles, and drains fast - good infrastructure / operational point. fast drains are needed. slight elevation of runway, slope, etc.. near by huge canals, drain channels and grooves by not letting the water pool up.
thinking..?
srin
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srin »

SaiK wrote:it did night flights which is lesser in visibility condition but really a bad weather condition. there are night flight videos on tube.

i am not sure I have seen one video on bad weather flight.
As per a Dec 2011 article, lightning tests were incomplete and Tejas didn't have all-weather clearance.
suryag
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Abhibhushan wrote:
SaiK wrote:it did night flights which is lesser in visibility condition but really a bad weather condition. there are night flight videos on tube.
Rain on a fighter windshield is a she-dog. At fighter speeds water molecule hitting the glass gets pulverized. Visibility through the glass becomes zero. That prevents visual combat. It also makes landing a very difficult task.

I would not engage in a dogfight in rain. I would also avoid landing in heavy rain. Apart from visibility, directional control on the ground at high speed on a wet runway is difficult.

Abhibhushan garu dumb question, would you have wipers for fighter windshields. Also what is the impact of water on runway splashing into the intakes. I udnerstand that jet engines are tested for rain and water ingestion but have seen this for only commercial aircraft, in the context of single engined jets does landing/taking off in rain cause problems like lesser thrust or FOD damage?
member_23694
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
yep. basically the above few post is what i meant in my question. Are such tests applicable for all fighter aircrafts . For ex in civil aviation there seems to mandatory Aquaplaning/ Hydroplaning tests and it is normal for commercial aircraft to takeoff and land in rain / bad weather.
So anything similar applicable for LCA
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

let us say, IAF has a mission impossible at the hour now, and must send a squadron to wrap up certain formations gone wild say some chini-paki exercise. these guys are now desperate, and are very close to our border.. our radars picks up many formations and red alert.. will we keep quite as no-ops can't take off or land while bad weather?

imho, it should be a mandatory required although may be done sometimes during or before FoC. my justification is to consider "all weather" requirement includes "bad weather".
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

Saik, bad weather beyond a point will shut down flight ops unless you can sortie a/c from where weather is flyable.
for a long time during cold war the FB111 in europe were the thin red line which could deliver strikes in night and bad weather ..until the tornado entered service...the rest were "day fighters" including the initial F-solah.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

There is only much that human engineering efforts can achieve if nature decides it is a bad day to fly then ghanta any aircraft will dare fly be it civilian or military. Even after all these claims of "All Weather" aircraft's I have never heard/read of any sortie or fight taking place on a rainy day forget about thunderstorms. All these flights/fights in a bad weather happen in Hollywood movies only. Didn't some time ago volcanic ash brought all the flights in Europe to a standstill, so much so for "All Weather".
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

dont forget that in high monsoon conditions ground operations in india are also next to impossible...
member_23694
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

some videos for flight in rain

RAF Cosford Airshow 2010 Harrier VTOL display in pouring rain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPyf9M6uI9Q

Cold War Jets Day 2008 Lightning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kjR3gNHZts

F 18 in rain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFtiB7pHfjI
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

The first videos is from an Air show(off), the second one seems like an aborted take off and I cannot see any combat payload in the third one (not that the first two are carrying any) and non of the three seem to be doing so in "heavy rain" as one poster sought for LCA. Surely LCA would never be able to match such "high standards".
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Bharadwaj »

Saw what looked like some Aero India rehearsals. The bird is so agile- the ioc envelope is probably fully opened now.
Last edited by Bharadwaj on 03 Feb 2013 18:09, edited 9 times in total.
member_23694
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

Sagar G wrote:The first videos is from an Air show(off), the second one seems like an aborted take off and I cannot see any combat payload in the third one (not that the first two are carrying any) and non of the three seem to be doing so in "heavy rain" as one poster sought for LCA. Surely LCA would never be able to match such "high standards".
OK, then let me bring the standard a bit down :D
Is there any video / pics of LCA taking off/landing on a cloudy/wet runway conditions. It was just a curiosity question as already said nothing with the intent of doubting LCA's capability. I hope i am very clear this time
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rajanb »

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/

TEJAS COMPLETES 2000 FLIGHTS:
Just got conformation from a source that India's Tejas fighter crossed a very significant milestone by logging the 2000th flight. The much-awaited moment happened yesterday (evening 02 Feb '13), when a LSP-4 aircraft from the Tejas line logged Flight No 2000, during practice sessions for Aero India. The LCAs at Aero India are expected to perform 'multiple aerobatics' for the first time. A formal announcement is expected shortly. Congratulations to Tejas designers, engineers, Test pilots, flight-test engineers, technicians and ground crew.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

did i see an F 16 in the pics ? this time too, why ?
Sagar G
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

dhiraj wrote:Is there any video / pics of LCA taking off/landing on a cloudy/wet runway conditions.
I haven't come across any.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vasu raya »

Tejas looks good, wish they would go for conformal tanks instead of sticking to drop tanks with refueling becoming the norm in IAF, many previous gen. fighters would need this upgrade.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

and that tarmak's c-17 pic taking off from dirt is awesome. i don't think that is banglaore.

dhiraj's third video on f-18s taking off, did not notice until one of the comments on the tube talked about the second hornet's delayed wheel retraction. possible faults or due to rain malfunction?

a landing on rain would be treat to watch though.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by kvraghavaiah »

Tejas was performing loops in sky over HAL airport this evening, around 4:30 PM .. Celebration of 2000 flights milestone!
Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

vasu raya wrote:Tejas looks good, wish they would go for conformal tanks instead of sticking to drop tanks with refueling becoming the norm in IAF, many previous gen. fighters would need this upgrade.
CFTs mess up the aerodynamics impacting turn rates and also acceleration such as the critical transonic acceleration (increase the cross sectional area and messing up area ruling).
With the F-16 for instance, CFTs messed up turn rates and handling to some degree, and this is mentioned as such in Ashley Tellis's review of why the US fighters lost the MMRCA bid.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vasu raya »

Thanks Karan, Tejas Mk2 is provisioned for higher internal fuel loads, while in the case of Mk1, not sure if it can fulfil the interceptor role given its lower thrust engine assuming the turn rates matter in an interceptor role and not much in a A2G role.

M-2000, Jaguars have dominant A2G roles and the drag due to drop tanks is more than the drag due to CFTs not to mention hardpoints being under utilized. Maybe transonic acceleration is important during the bug out phase of a A2G mission?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by putnanja »

Check out some great pics of LCA doing winter trials in Leh last month ...

STUNNING PHOTOS: Tejas Winter Trials At Leh Last Month

some samples , go to site for more, and higher resolution ones..

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

All images are of LCA with drop tanks and 2 AA missiles and Litening pod designator. Two more hardpoints on the wing and the centerline hardpoint is empty.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

In one of the pics the landing gear says 17 and lsp05 was kh-2015 and 17 was lsp07 so 07 also had a tour of leh??

I think in pic8 and 9 it is the lsp07. apart from the landing gear doors which says 17, the apu intake seems to be like the one on lsp07(not as prominent as on previous planes)
Karan M
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Hi VR,

Thing is the IAF wants the LCA to be multirole, so the same squadron can pull multiple duties and which makes it extremely potent and flexible. So its not just about being an interceptor or A2G etc.
Coming to what the LCA MK1 should be good for - per accounts, it is already shaping up to be superior to the MiG-21 Bison, which in turn is superior to many of the PAF's current frontline birds. So it can do much the same role, more effectively. If we look at what all missions the LCA will be expected to do:

A2A:
Do escort, fighter sweeps w/loiter, defend itself on strike, CAP, interceptions
A2G: Strike enemy far away from TBA, Close Air support, recce/BDA

In the A2A arena:
There are three competing objectives:
- Maneuverability - getting the nose on your opponent before he does it. In a sustained, turnign fight - STR. In a quick transient fashion - ITR. This applies to both WVR and BVR, but lets start with WVR first.

Generally, STR was more important before missiles became prevalent as guns literally had to be walked to and held on the target. Today with HOBS missiles and helmet sights, ITR is considered an equally important parameter. LCA being a delta is automatically better in ITR (same holds for Mirage 2000 vs F-16) and lags in STR. Incidentally, it has ELBIT DASH HMDS & R-73E, so as you can see, in WVR, LCA's STR lagging is not necessarily such a huge issue which is why the IAF ordered 40 MK-1s. If it was a huge problem, they wouldn't have ordered a single one.

Next, in BVR - the aim is to launch missiles at a target far away, using your radar and then evade. Here the LCA's low RCS, long range radar with mechanical array (which means it can slew to threats at large angles off the boresight) and its BVR missiles will help. Here, the usual tactic is to paint a target, and then begin the STR @ high speeds, while slewing the antenna to its max limit to allow the missile to keep getting instructions and then moment it goes active, dependent on its own seeker, you run. Inherently, Deltas do better at supersonic speeds, so the top speed & acceleration post the transonic barrier shouldn't matter.

What should matter is the second thing that comes up. Agility - which can roughly be translated to, ability to transition energy states quickly. Here, having a proven engine which can deliver thrust quickly, and a speedy platform which can take that thrust and use it well, matters. Most people believe BVR will happen when you are supersonic. IMHO, based on prior ACM, thats a misconception. You actually want to go supersonic to get to your target quickly, to the max range your weaponry is useful. Then you want to stay away out of his reach! Now fast planes are not helicopters and cant hover. So basically, supersonic ability is useful to dash to an objective AND as you mentioned, to escape trouble. However the majority of combat is likely to take place at the 0.5-0.8M level. Having said that, if you are supersonic at missile launch, you add that speed, which means energy, which means more range to your missile.
With the LCA MK-1, its been able to get to the stated speeds required in ASR. The IAF wants a higher thrust engine to have it deliver the performance it should, when it has the max payload. Otherwise, a lightly loaded LCA should be able to perform decently, even if its below the very ambitious goals the IAF set for it. Again, in BVR, the LCA should be able to perform decently.

Third, are the avionics, here the LCA lacks nothing. It is first class by today's standards.

I am leaving A2G out of it, because this is something the LCA will be able to do exceptionally well. Every bit like a Jaguar but with A2A ability. Yes, transonic acceleration would matter in the bug out phase. But generally, these planes are likely to be subsonic-high subsonic throughout to optimize the fuel/range equation.

Which brings us to what the IAF's ASRs were. They are generally - based on whatever info I have gathered listening/reading, very ambitious & compare well to 4.5G fighters even today. They were basically a combo of best in class specs cherrypicked from the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000, the two best IAF fighters of the time, squeezed into an aircraft the exact dimensions of a MiG-21. So the LCA could happily sit in all the MiG-21 HASs built everywhere, use the same dimension apron, airfield etc. This has been very challenging to achieve, and the result is that we need a MK-2 with a higher thrust engine to make up for it. But even a MK-1 per test pilots can exceed a Bison, and the Bison has proven itself in multiple exercises. MK-1 should have a better range/payload performance as well which is crucial as the IAF is an offensive AF, and all pilots appreciate more range.

IMO, by taking up this ultra ambitious program to begin with, we have gained systems knowledge far in excess of what we would have got via an easy program, like say the JF-17. There is a reason why LCA systems can be used for upgrades in other planes, because they are already very compact and designed to be optimized. These lessons learnt in dense packaging will help us with the AMCA, because stealth aircraft are all about managing that.

Interesting thing is - when the JSF had a KPP shortfall, the USAF relaxed those KPP! In IAF's case, they asked for a MK-2 and did not relax their specs. While its not apples to apples entirely, the VLO aspect of the JSF gives it a huge leeway in BVR, it still points to how demanding the Indian services are in terms of requirements.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_20292 »

^^^

the lca , thus , is , essentially a gripen / mirage 2000-5 / f16 block 52 .


If so, then great! we got a good discount on the gripen mmrca. the lca would be 30-40 million usd to the gripens 80 million usd, fly away.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

the wing body blend is really good, so just wondering about the space under the skins how it is utilized. ideally, conformal internal fuel bags (like how they do for formula one cars) to maximize space use for extra fuel would add values to various mission profile.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vZfnnR6Gb74/U ... 735865.jpg
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

MB

Exactly. The LCA MK-2 in many ways will be a peer of the NG Gripen, which is why latter did not make sense for the MMRCA as well. Why buy something which you are making yourself? A lot of foren obsessed types were perfectly willing India swing an axe at its own interests by buying a WIP jet and killing its own progress, but the IAF chose the two best performers both heavier, which by virtue of their size brought certain advantages to the table. Plus were more mature to begin with, vs NG and less risky.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

IMO NAL should become more like TSAGI of Russia focussing purely on research and applied research. Saras once it attains IOC should be handed over to Mahindra and get done with it.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

good idea, but not necessarily mahindra. it could be anyone with qualities and capabilities. the r&d expenditure is returned back to kitty to create a new r&d project by way of selling the technology at cost higher than r&d.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vasu raya »

That was a good dress down on the A2A capability of the Mk1 Karan proving that Tejas is indeed multi-role, and it is an ambitious program, no doubt about that. Its also fabulous that they are following this up with the AMCA program which means continuos innovation is demanded from the industry. More than comparison with Paki stuff, would like to see the Tejas aircraft in a Red flag exercise much like the Gripen.

now, back to the original issue again with narrow blinkers, if they choose to put Tejas in a A2G mission, can the CFTs be bolted on similar to how the drop tanks are mounted on the pylons using ground supporting equipment.

At the tactical level for A2G missions the ingress and egress is usually at low level much like the Jaguar does which means the RCS due to CFTs is not a major

As long as the typical speeds are in 0.6-0.8 mach range, drag isn't a big concern either.

If we want to market this to friendly countries we need some TFTA quotient which the CFTs provide vs the bulky drop tanks. Of course, if there was a real war in that neighborhood we need to protect the reputation of these planes as well. so, what was Lockheed's rationale in fielding the f-16IN with CFTs in the MMRCA competition, just extended range?

Then the weird part was F-18 which has two 404 engines yet its performance in Leh was found wanting while Tejas has no trouble taking off from there with a decent payload using the same engine.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

this is another beauty from def forum
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/9936 ... 314676.jpg

i wish it get energized with 414s sooner than later. IN will be so happy.
member_23694
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

^^^^^^
But why i don't like the overall proportion of N-LCA, especially the 2 seater, the single seater AF version looks much more mature 8)
BTW if any Guru can clarify why no inflight refuelling capability in current LCA, there will be less dependency then on drop tanks. What is the plans for it for LCA Mk.1 since there is plans for having 40 of them and will also serve as test bed for Mk.2
One more thing that i notice is that for all Leh flights there is always drop tanks attached , any specific reason ?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_22539 »

^I would say the curvaceous one is more mature looking :wink:, but I guess you are the type that like the slim boyish types. :mrgreen:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

nlca-mk-2 should be proportionate for you.. as it is going to be lengthier by a meter.. hopefully for additional fuel storage, retractable pods, more pylons converted to internal LRUs, etc.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_20292 »

vasu raya wrote:
If we want to market this to friendly countries we need some TFTA quotient which the CFTs provide vs the bulky drop tanks. Of course, if there was a real war in that neighborhood we need to protect the reputation of these planes as well. so, what was Lockheed's rationale in fielding the f-16IN with CFTs in the MMRCA competition, just extended range?

Then the weird part was F-18 which has two 404 engines yet its performance in Leh was found wanting while Tejas has no trouble taking off from there with a decent payload using the same engine.
1. yes. malaysia comes to mind. vietnam. maybe even japan. afghanistan. at a price of 40 million usd, it is a good balance to japans f35s.

2. nice fact. wings.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Gurus - a question. The increase in AoA of LCA can it be ground tested. In the sense that at certain higher AoAs the problem that happens is stall of engine because of varying degree of airflow into the intakes. Can the full scale LCA be put on some kind of swivel gear and the nose lifted up to reflect 26deg w.r.t the simulated airflow and check out if the engine is suffocating due to the changed angle?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Vietnam should be given 4 squadrons of Tejas Mk I for free. Plus 100 or so Prithvis. Being a dharmik nation we should do some daan-punya too. Plus yellowish reds should see this porki arming is a two way street. 8)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by krishnan »

Image
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_20292 »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Vietnam should be given 4 squadrons of Tejas Mk I for free. Plus 100 or so Prithvis. Being a dharmik nation we should do some daan-punya too. Plus yellowish reds should see this porki arming is a two way street. 8)

arrey. we make it sound like it is a big deal, this chankian-ness.

have to move forward with power here. no more effetteness.

be chakravartin chandashok before trying to be ashok
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Aditya_V »

krishnan wrote:Image
Is this MK-2 looks ??
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