Bharat Rakshak

chandrabhan wrote:On My personal level, I have nudged 2 of the team owners to stay away from Pawkis. They have complied. There are few in BCCI who give the logic that Indian team has lost the killer instinct since we stopped playing pawkistan.

Aparna Pande’s excellent book, Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India, is a must read for Indian travellers to Pakistan who tend to gush to the locals, “You know, this is just like India, we don’t feel like we’ve come to another country”, and then feel perplexed by the Lahori’s cold response. Secure in our millennia-old identity, few of us Indians are aware of Pakistan’s quest for an identity; the logic of its “anti-India” worldview; and the many fictions that our neighbour has embraced in answering that simplest of questions: “who am I?”

I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands . “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

Pande’s book explores how and why Pakistan repudiates its history. For this, you have to pay Rs 6,750/- for a slim, handsome volume that is a part of Routledge’s Contemporary South Asia series. But that daunting amount buys you a carefully researched historical analysis that traces the crafting of our neighbour’s national identity, from the time that the Muslim League convinced itself that a nation could be constructed on the basis of a shared religious identity, with Islam substituting for nationalism. Such an identity, Pakistan’s leaders felt, was as central to the new state’s survival as the armed defence of its physical borders. Any ideological frontier naturally requires an ideological “other”, Pande argues, which for Pakistan has always been a malevolent “Hindu” India, epitomised by the crafty Hindu bania. Such a worldview permeates through Pakistani society, being propagated through a “Pakistan Studies” curriculum at all levels of schooling.

Pande deconstructs Pakistan’s pan-Islamic ideology (it was the world’s first Islamic Republic), which it sustained with difficulty even through Cold War alliances with the “anti-Islamic” west. Saudi Arabia described Pakistan’s 1954 entry into the US-led Baghdad Pact as “a stab in the heart of the Arab and Muslim states,” while Islamabad’s pro-west stance during the 1956 Suez Crisis seriously damaged relations with Egypt. Meanwhile Nehru’s stock remained high across much of West Asia, so Pakistan could cite Islamic solidarity mainly in its relations with Turkey and Iran.

But Islamabad continued to play the pan-Islamic card, irritating old civilisations like Egypt by lecturing them about religion as the predominant marker of identity. Pande quotes Egypt’s King Farouk’s acid observation that “Pakistanis believed that Islam was born on August 14, 1947.”

The author highlights Pakistan’s contortions in reconciling pan-Islamism with its friendship with Communist China. Even in 1956, Prime Minister Suhrawardy was saying, “I feel perfectly certain that when the crucial time comes, China will come to our assistance.” Pakistan’s vocal advocacy for the rights of Muslim minorities anywhere does not extend to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, who Beijing has long persecuted as separatists and supporters of terrorism. At successive meetings of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), Pakistan has dissuaded fellow Muslim countries from tabling a resolution on the Uyghur issue, even while raising the issue of Kashmir and allegations of persecution of the Muslim minority in India.

Too many Indians, especially policymakers, deal with Pakistan as if it were a normal country that makes rational calculations to materially benefit its people, rather than a confused, ideological hybrid for whom confronting the “other” remains the primary buttress of a shaky national identity. Too often, Pakistan’s unshakeable opposition to India is laid at the army’s doorstep, based on the simplistic conclusion that peace does not suit the generals. Pande’s dense but readable book leaves the reader with the gloomy conclusion that anti-Indianism runs much deeper, flowing along the roots and branches of an artificial and ill-conceived national identity.

SSridhar wrote:

ramana wrote:There is this remote chance that TSP is shipping them to KSA for further processing?

Ramana, if you mean that the TSP is betraying these terrorists and turning them over to India through the KSA, I doubt even that remote possibility for the reason that Abu Jundal is a PA/ISI man (through the LeT). The PA/ISI will be nailed even more through these arrested guys. This is an operation that has gone awry for the PA/ISI. PA/ISI/LeT are planning for another and more spectacular terror strike and they overstretched. The PA/ISI/LeT also underestimated the meticulousness and perseverance of the Indian intel agencies. These arrests and deportations to India, in spite of strong claims by TSP that they were Pakistanis, add uncertainty to the jihadis and closes down a safe haven hitherto enjoyed by TSP.

ramana wrote:My attempt at Understanding TSP:

http://www.indiaresearch.org/UnderstandingPakistan.pdf

Our sources have reliably learned that Differences between Pak armed forces in Balochistan, the Army and Frontier Corps have surfaced and the escalated conflict brought the secrets out in Public, and Pakistan Military High Command are highly concerns over the issue.

Though Pak army is always in denial, yet a trend of suicide within the armed forces is widely talked of about personnel deployed in Balochistan. The list surfaced so far, shows Major Mohsin Choudry at the top , who hanged himself , and found dead .He was posted in the Bahlool Area of Chamalang ,Kohlu.

According to sources the suicide toll reached eight in the same area. While in the Dera Bugti , Abid Hussain (JCO),and Tanveer Multani (Driver) are also included among the suicides. In the newly established Sui Cantonment Major Kalimullah and Shahid Choudry committed suicide due to psychological stress. Captan Pervaiz and Ziauddin Sawati,from Turbat Cantonment, Yasin and Asif from Khuzdar Cantonment, Mubaashir Hussain and Muhammad Siddique from Gawadar cantonment, Shafqat Ali from Noshki Cantonment, Haider Ali Kharan, Shareef Raza from Qalat, Lieutenant Safdar Ali Butt and Touseef from Kahan, Nujahid Khairullah Shinwari and Yasir Ali from Jaalri, while Malik Waqar Hussain and Ismail Shah have taken their lives at Karmoo Wadh Checkpost.

ramana wrote:My attempt at Understanding TSP:

http://www.indiaresearch.org/UnderstandingPakistan.pdf

SSridhar wrote:

ramana wrote:There is this remote chance that TSP is shipping them to KSA for further processing?

Ramana, if you mean that the TSP is betraying these terrorists and turning them over to India through the KSA, I doubt even that remote possibility for the reason that Abu Jundal is a PA/ISI man (through the LeT). The PA/ISI will be nailed even more through these arrested guys. This is an operation that has gone awry for the PA/ISI. PA/ISI/LeT are planning for another and more spectacular terror strike and they overstretched. The PA/ISI/LeT also underestimated the meticulousness and perseverance of the Indian intel agencies. These arrests and deportations to India, in spite of strong claims by TSP that they were Pakistanis, add uncertainty to the jihadis and closes down a safe haven hitherto enjoyed by TSP.

I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands . “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

Ambar wrote:
Either that or unkil is back to his old tricks. It is hard to believe they did not / do not keep track of "global jihadis", and could have well short-changed the LeT piglet to yank ISI's testimonials . Add Panetta's 3 day visit to India, it could well be a carrot to India and stick to Pakistan to get India involved in the American afghan war mess.

Claiming that foreign intelligence agencies were involved in violence in Karachi to sabotage the peace in Pakistan's financial hub, Malik said: "India should tell how many extremists they have sent to Pakistan".

Charlie wrote:I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

“We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands

Charlie wrote:Dont know if it was posted but here it is.

Ajai Shukla's Book Review of Aparna Pande's "Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India"

RajeshA wrote:BCCI guy is trying to say that we are the bulls and the Pakis are the red flags! Only upon see red, do we get into top gear onlee!

Acharya wrote:

Ambar wrote:
Either that or unkil is back to his old tricks. It is hard to believe they did not / do not keep track of "global jihadis", and could have well short-changed the LeT piglet to yank ISI's testimonials . Add Panetta's 3 day visit to India, it could well be a carrot to India and stick to Pakistan to get India involved in the American afghan war mess.

Indian deaths inside India due to these terrorists cannot be a bargain for Indian foreign policy.
LeT was banned only in 2008 and the message to the Pakis was that it is OK to kill Indians until these outfits are banned. US policy has actively encouraged killing of Indians inside India.

Rajiv Lather wrote:
Three major incidents that may have shaped the way he thinks are hanging of ZAB, Zardari's long imprisonment and finally the assassination of his wife.

So what do you think is going on in his mind right now ? And more importantly what is he planning for the future ?

I have a feeling the answers to the above two questions are going to be very important for India.

...Johann,

Following the points you have made and looking at some of Zardari's inexplicable decisions I have a feeling Zardari has made a conscious decision to weaken and finally destroy the cohesion of Central and Northern Punjab in Pakistan.

Now this region is the powerful core which holds Pakistan together. Zardari has decided come what may, he will keep chipping away at this region until its power is diminished to an extent that it will never again threaten him or his family. And if in doing so Pakistan breaks up again, then so be it. This move, both defensive (self-preservation) and offensive (revenge) is being enacted in a way that defense and offence compliment and strengthen each other.

deepan gill wrote:. US had its aims ...

It is wrong to say that US policy is encouraging killing of Indians.

Rather, Indians themselves are encouraging killing of Indians. Its time to call spade a spade.

pgbhat wrote:

Charlie wrote:I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

inbred idiots.

Roperia wrote:While Indian govt. under the leadership of Congress President Sonia Gandhi and Dr. MMS was trying to move forward in our relations with Jihadistan, ISI was planning several ambitious operations.

The life and crimes of Abu Jundal | NDTV Documentary

Syed Zabiuddin Jundal is now being questioned by Indian investigating agencies. He is one of the key people who planned and executed the 26/11 attack. But his is a story that starts from rural Maharashtra where people still remember him as a hard-working, soft-spoken boy. NDTV travels to Beed to know Jundal's story.

Allama Raja Nasir Abbas Jafari told the gathering at the historic Minar-e-Pakistan that recent terrorist attack on the Pakistani pilgrims in Quetta was an attempt by the enemy to fan the fire of sectarianism, but these elements will never succeed to divide Muslims.

abhischekcc wrote:

Singha wrote:Pak horror films breathe life into under-construction building
Press Trust of India / New Delhi June 27, 2012, 14:35

Three pakistani horror films – "Zinda Laash" (1967),
"Zibahkhana" (2007) and "Aurat Raaj" (1979) are set to be screened at different parts of the broken down Khoj Studios, on July 6.

Yeah, a film called Aurat Raaj would be a horror film in Pakistan.

They are more used to being ruled by hijdas.

After every 2-3 weeks, we get pious pontification on how US has its own "interests" and "aims", and we should get used to it. Generally these arguments are based on first-rate MUTU-ism and lahori logic. I don't understand why US continuously whines when other country support terrorist groups. You know Saudi Arabia and Iran have their own "interests" and "aims".

Good lahori logic. It is wrong to say that Iran is encouraging killing of Israelis (via Hezbollah). It is wrong to say that Mullah Omar was encouraging killing of Americans by hosting OBL. Why are Americans trying to find him?

Indian leadership in hardly perfect. By not responding to terrorist attacks, they have to take some blame if terrorists/Pakis are emboldened. However, unlike some, the Indian govt does not give weapons to LeT-supporting countries. The Indian govt has not destroyed evidence against the perpetrators of 1993 Bombay blasts.

deepan gill wrote:Before even hitting at the terrorists, are Indians themselves ready for sacrifices? Are they ready to shun products ?, friendship? , movies depicting paki actors, shows, albums from paki artists ?

Please tell me one instance where US has supplied a terrorist organization with weapons, training or money to encourage killing of Indians?

deepan gill wrote:This my friend is directly encouraging terrorism in a country. Just like how Pakistan, funds, trains and supplies weapons to Islamic terrorists against India.

Please tell me one instance where US has supplied a terrorist organization with weapons, training or money to encourage killing of Indians?

I dont understand "Lahori Logic" BUT it so happens, my Nanaji came from Lahore during partition. And, as far I know, Lahori logic came to Mumbai, killed Indians, and so-called UP logic has so far been to send dossiers after dossiers. It seems there is some merit in Lahori Logic, wouldn't you agree? Afterall, they are wining right? Taking away free electricity, free goodies, now has labeled the Hindus as terrorists as well, already influenced our PM to make concessions on Siachen, so I think we should not dismiss this Lahori Logic just yet, its kicking our ass at the moment.

Abhishek, read my post again, I simply said it is wrong to say that US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS. This is what I said, and I stand by my statement that US and people of US are far more humane and passionate to allow such policies to be conducted by their govt. Even today fully being aware that Muslims eye for US blood, US citizens still welcome muslims to their shores. Dorry buddy I have lived in US for 38 years and you this statement "US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS" is false.

I never knew evidence or proof is needed to protect your own citizens. When was the last time, any country in the world, including Vietnam when it entered Cambodia provided proof to world body? Who is dictating Indian policy? South Block or the West Wing?

SO YES Abhishek, it is Indian citizens, like you and I who are encouraging killing of our own countrymen.

deepan gill wrote:
Abhishek, read my post again, I simply said it is wrong to say that US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS. This is what I said, and I stand by my statement that US and people of US are far more humane and passionate to allow such policies to be conducted by their govt. Even today fully being aware that Muslims eye for US blood, US citizens still welcome muslims to their shores. Dorry buddy I have lived in US for 38 years and you this statement "US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS" is false.

Indian govt has openly defended and sided with Muslim countries that demand destruction of state of israel. India has openly welcomed and championed the cause of well known terrorist called Yasser Arafat, and yet when Kargil happened, it was Israel that provided India will precision kits for its dumb bombs.

I never knew evidence or proof is needed to protect your own citizens. When was the last time, any country in the world, including Vietnam when it entered Cambodia provided proof to world body? Who is dictating Indian policy? South Block or the West Wing?

Why arent Indian citizens demanding this simple form of peaceful protest from the Indian govt? SO YES Abhishek, it is Indian citizens, like you and I who are encouraging killing of our own countrymen.

venug wrote: added later:
forgot to add David Headley

Charlie wrote:“We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.”

NEW DELHI: Syed Zabiuddin Ansari alias Abu Jundal has told his interrogators that Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives are trained in 'internet activities' and the outfit has a dedicated band of "trained and educated" boys who look after the entire gamut of online activities like sending emails, maintaining websites and using different servers in a way to show the IP addresses in the US and other western countries.

Indian agencies were aware of these facts through intelligence sources and interrogation of small-time operatives but this has been corroborated now.

Jundal also told investigators that all Lashkar recruits had to undergo a 10-12 hour exercise daily which included religious training, IED making, handling small and heavy weapons and use of communication devices.

LeT, intelligence sources said, had professionals who took classes in the use of software and internet, besides people from ISI and Pakistan army who taught use of weapons like AK series rifles, hand grenades, rockets, pistols, mortars, anti-tank mines, anti-personnel mines, anti-aircraft guns, remote control devices, explosive devices and sophisticated communication systems.

"The new recruits, several of them well educated, join these training programmes for several days. Their day starts early in the morning with religious prayers, listening to lectures, exercising, studying about weapons and how to make IEDs and later they are asked to use them. If the trainers find that a particular recruit is not concentrating, he is removed from the training programme," a source said.

Jundal has also given information about Lashkar training camps running all over Pakistan. Sources said Jundal had given names of some trainers as well.

Jundal was questioned by new Delhi Police commissioner Neeraj Kumar at the Special Cell office on Sunday afternoon. Delhi Police and IB have extracted information from Jundal about operatives in India, which officials refused to share saying 'operations were going on'.

If sources are to be believed, Jundal has also given some helpful inputs to agencies about the IISC attack in 2005 and Rampur attack in January 2008. The cops are also planning to confront him with Faheem Ansari and Sabauddin, who are in jail for the Rampur attack.

Jundal has already provided information about several ISI officers and their numbers to the agencies, apart from change of operational command base of Lashkar from Muzzafarabad to Dulai in Pakistan. In the 26/11 case, Jundal has reportedly given some new inputs about the control room, planning and execution, through which Indian agencies would be able to file a new charge sheet on Pakistan's role in the attack.

Pakistan's first arts college's editorial board has been dissolved and two other departments have been closed, weeks after the institution's annual journal was accused of publishing material that supported homosexuality and ridiculed Islamic values.

The architecture and research and publication departments of the National College of Arts in Lahore have been closed while the director for research and publication, Sarosh Irfani, has been suspended.

The principal of the NCA, Sajjad Kausar, and some other staff are facing charges of blasphemy, official sources said.

Roperia wrote: Highly placed sources in the government said India issued an identity certificate to the Saudi authorities for Fasih last week after Pakistani agencies too laid claim by stating that Fasih had a valid Pakistani passport. Pakistani agencies had made a similar claim for Jundal.

Sources said US pressure helped in swinging the case in India's favour.

Raja Bose wrote:India should apologize for sending Surjeet Singh to spy: Rehman Malik

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

deepan gill wrote:Once I reached US, I myself attended these so-called terrorist camps in US where Khalistanis were trained. And by god anyone can join, just pay $25, buy the ammo and there you go, you are shooting off a 9MM or AK-47. You can find these places in pennsylvania and other states.

Now if you are a die-hard, then for couple of hundred bucks you can join a survival camp and learn to live off the land and participate is military style simulation with paintball guns. I hardly call this a terrorist camp, you get more training when playing call of duty.

Now how has US policy encouraged killing of Indians? Since when did US policy become dependent of Indian approval? In a far-reaching calculation yes this statement is thought provoking, but there is always another side to a story. US had its aims, Pakistan was willing to assist, US gave Pakistani what it needed, Pakistan used it against India, US sent dossiers to Pakistan, asking them to stop their naughty behaviour, and US kept its bigger objectives clear, destruction of evil empire.