Page 42 of 69

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 08 Apr 2013 10:28
by member_20317
RajeshA wrote:Cross-posting from "Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India" Thread
kapilrdave wrote:Call me a Hindu fanatic but I find even NM less interested in Hinduism and more in economics these days. In Guj he has not done any particular favor to Hindus (godhra was not a favor). But I think he is practicing his Raj Dharma very well which is good enough for me.
Chandragupta wrote:
I tend to agree with that. From the looks of it, unless somebody here has access to the man himself, it seems like Modi is not really a Hindutva person i.e. in the mould of Hindutva that has more fans here at BR (including moi). He looks as if he leans right because he is 100% secular dharmic while the opposition is Left-Islamo-Christist. I don't think in the perfect scenario, Modi would be a right wing leader.
I also noticed that Modi is not strictly in the traditional mould of Hindutva-vaadis. But he is not very far off either. His position is more like a competing route to Hindutva lakshya. He is not driving on the RJB kind of ideas. But then I would not fault him on that. I would not fault even BJP on that. The law as it stands has effectively debarred all politicians from rallying their supporters on such points. Ergo the need for VHP type organizations. It is these organizations that will take forward the eternal struggle. They have the advantage of a Pangu socio-legal system. Our struggle must also keep moving forward. RJB can be the best tool to parse the I/mine from them/theirs. The beginings of re-laying of the foundations of, restatement of commitments to, Dharm in this country. So in the very long run NM is not the final iteration of Hindutva methodology. But then he is not working on the long run. 10-15 years is the most that he will last or have effect over. In fact his main contribution could end up being a diluting force to the concentrated Hindutva-vadis.

It is in a way good that Modi is sought to be conflated by his opponents with Hindutva vaadis. This will only serve to keep the Sangh together while at the same time his razor like effect does not go away.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 08 Apr 2013 19:11
by ShauryaT
Here is something to watch for. Look at as many speeches, interviews of Modi. Watch for the number of times Modi invokes the inspiration of which leader(s). Then map it to his approaches to his own convictions. Honest watchers will get the message loud and clear. CT theorists on both sides will keep on whining. Bottom Line: Modi is not an ideologue, he is a leader for his times. So, ravi_g ji, you are correct that Modi's effect will last a generation and not beyond, if elected to power.

Towards the vision of Bharat, he would have a limited effect, assuming no major events occur. Leaders are often made by the challenges they face. Many an able person are not remembered as they did not face those challenges. MMS is on that path of being forgotten and so was RG. PVNR would be remembered, so will be IG. ABV is kind if mid way. Ofcourse JLN and MKG are etched in history.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 08 Apr 2013 20:27
by RajeshA
Modi is not an ideologue, he is a leader for his times. So, ravi_g ji, you are correct that Modi's effect will last a generation and not beyond, if elected to power.

Towards the vision of Bharat, he would have a limited effect, assuming no major events occur. Leaders are often made by the challenges they face. Many an able person are not remembered as they did not face those challenges. MMS is on that path of being forgotten and so was RG. PVNR would be remembered, so will be IG. ABV is kind if mid way. Ofcourse JLN and MKG are etched in history.
Who is an ideologue? One who has the intellect to translate reality into a comprehensible model and prescribe a transformation formula for that model to achieve a more desired end state. Needed guna: world knowledge & clarity!

Who is a leader? One who has the ability to inspire people to overcome the circumstantial obstructions and build a better reality possibly based on a transformation model, an ideology. Needed faculty: kshatriyata!

If the ideologue is also a leader why should he increase the circumstantial obstructions for his leadership and the people he leads by putting his ideology in black and white, especially as he knows that committed believers can understand his coded speech.

If Modi becomes Prime Minister, one can be sure that he would not leave the field before 15 years at the helm, unless something untoward happens!

It is 25 years since Reagan is gone! How many Americans still look back at him fondly as one of the greatest Presidents? Was he an ideologue? There is Reaganism, there is Reaganomics.

The Prime Ministers India would recall are Lal Bahadur Shastri, Indira Gandhi, PV Narsimha Rao, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, Narendra Modi, ... Under Modi India would become the foremost power in the world, so of course he would be remembered. How can one forget the PM under which India rises from a Macaulayite Slave Nation to Bharat?!

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 08 Apr 2013 20:59
by JE Menon
Modi did an excellent job at FICCI today. Watched the whole thing live (with real time translation :D).

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 08 Apr 2013 23:29
by svinayak
ShauryaT wrote: Bottom Line: Modi is not an ideologue, he is a leader for his times. So, ravi_g ji, you are correct that Modi's effect will last a generation and not beyond, if elected to power.
Development model and a workable vision will last for several generation. We need a hundred year working model and his Gujarat model will last for several decades.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 09 Apr 2013 05:42
by devesh
we are getting ahead of ourselves.

there is a big IF in all the above posts. why are we getting so worked up on Modi? let's calm down a bit. the haters of Modi, and those who are eager to downplay his "ideology" have their reasons for it. the Modi fans and well-wishers need to remember that the ultimate strength is not on their side. so, if Modi becomes PM, then we can see if he contributes toward a grander vision for Bharat than the one it currently has.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 09 Apr 2013 07:46
by Arjun
ShauryaT wrote:Here is something to watch for. Look at as many speeches, interviews of Modi. Watch for the number of times Modi invokes the inspiration of which leader(s). Then map it to his approaches to his own convictions. Honest watchers will get the message loud and clear. CT theorists on both sides will keep on whining. Bottom Line: Modi is not an ideologue, he is a leader for his times.
Don't quite know who fits in your definition of an 'ideologue' above, Shaurya ji. Presumably you mean a person who can write grand 'intellectual' treatises with little regard for their real-world implementation - if that's your definition of an 'ideologue' Modi certainly does not fit the bill.

On the other hand, if you are looking for someone with the ability to truly grasp and get to the 'core' of an issue (whether it's Hindutva or issues of economics and governance) AND the ability to articulate complex and subtle ideas in simple, insightful terms that have the power to move the masses - that's an area where frankly nobody comes even close to Modi's capabilities.

On Modi's takes on matters of economics and governance - there is more than enough of his views on public record that attest to the uniqueness and freshness of his ideas and approach. On Hindutva or Bharatiyata - obviously he cannot be as open. But from what we know of the man, they would certainly be based on his OWN convictions, his own insights and most importantly driven by what he considers an 'actionable' roadmap.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 09 Apr 2013 10:37
by member_20317
Bingo Arjun ji, 'Actionable'. That is what to my view NM is trying. The actionable Hindutva. The old guard is still stuck with RJM despite the SC having outlawed it for all those in active politics.

By failing to realize that it is the SC and the Kongi with their B-Teams that are against RJM type ideas, the Sangh old guard is only creating more trouble within Sangh.

How this affects the Hindutva objective is that we are in the real danger of leaving a thrush in hand for two in the bush. And a Hindutva objective that is lame may as well just hand over victory to the fissiparous tendencies of Rashtra.

Additionally RajeshA ji, a high confidence in NM's capability is contingent on:

1) him getting to the table. Which carries it risks. To be addressed in the NM vs. Dienasty thread ; AND

2) Rashtra not loosing its focus for at least that much time. This is a big big if. India is a big experiment. There is no precedent for a 1.20 billion people working towards a common goal with absolute guarantee of not stepping over each other's toes. When I said 15 years. This is what I meant, in essence. Would like to understand your views on this point given your higher degree of confidence compared to me.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 09 Apr 2013 14:20
by RajeshA
Vibrant Bharat

Shri Narendra Modi addressing students at Shri Ram College of Commerce Business Conclave, Delhi on Feb 06, 2013




Shri Narendra Modi addressing the India Today Conclave 2013 on Mar 16, 2013




Shri Narendra Modi addressing FICCI Ladies Organization on April 08, 2013




Shri Narendra Modi addressing Network 18 Think India Dialogue on April 08, 2013




Shri Narendra Modi talks on 'Vibrant Growth Model' with Chambers of Industry, Kolkata on Apr 09, 2013


Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 00:13
by RamaY
X-Posting from Savarkar thread...
Atri wrote:What can NM do? His job is to provide physical safety to volunteers and pracharaks. This very safety is not present in Bengal and Kerala and other places. role of Kshatriya stops here. What more do they require from NM? RSS and affiliates organizes plenty of events in GJ. AFAIK, Funding is no longer much of problem for Parivar. They do not have huge funding like EJs and Mullahs, but they are doing OK. They have to do their job on their own. VHP and Arya Samaj should start Shuddhi in GJ/MP/CH/RJ etc.

Anyways, it would be off topic here.
This is where Bharatiyas have to understand where Govt stops and Individuals/NGO's role starts in a society.

Support RSS. Start/support an Indic NGO. Celebrate Bharat with other Bharatiyas. All these actions are outside Govt's purview.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 00:19
by RajeshA
Cross-postingfrom "Critical Analysis of Savarkar" Thread

Atri ji,

I would recommend shifting Indian Muslims to Ahmadiyya sect first, through massive financing. Also I would suggest initiating marital relations between Ahmadiyyas and Hindus, with mixed marriages allowing their children to undergo the full 16 Samskaras and calling themselves both Hindus and Ahmandiyyas.

If they are Ahmadiyyas then the whole Hajj business would also come to an end. Let Qadian again become a place of pilgrimage in the medium term.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 01:09
by RamaY
^ Why this fetish with marrying Hindus to Muslims saaar? Would that worldview include Muslims having four wives?

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 01:43
by RajeshA
RamaY ji,

Because Islam is all about separation, about ghettoization, just so that the Muslim masses do not get corrupted. The momeen and elite however are allowed to interact with the Kufr. The elite is there to lure others into dropping their guard and get into strategic and influential positions from where they can be helpful to their birathers and the true momeen are allowed to go and look for converts, do love-jihad, etc.

If one wants to open this can one needs a strategy! Conversion to Ahmadiyya and Mixed Marriage between Hindu men and Ahmadiyya women mostly is a two-step process to get the Indian Muslim and his family and friends from the ghetto into Hindu mainstream.

If we think that Shuddhi based on persuasion is some magical fix, then that may work at a very small level. For shuddhi on a bigger scale one has to think of a far bigger mechanism.

In a mixed marriage, whereas from the Muslim side it is always a momeen who convinces the Hindu to convert in order to marry, from the Hindu side it is mostly weak-minded individuals who give in. Why are true Hindutvavadis not doing this in reverse? If one wants the Muslims to revert back to the religion of the pitrus, then one has to be a little bolder.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 02:00
by RajeshA
I think besides the Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan, India should also give asylum to persecuted Ahmadiyyas from Pakistan into India!

BUT BUT BUT

only if another Ahmadiyya in India can prove that he has converted 50 Indian Muslims to Ahmadiyya sect! That means for every 50 conversions in India, the Ahmadiyya in India can choose to recommend one Pakistani Ahmadiyya for refugee visa to India. If there are no security reasons to withhold the refuge, India would give it.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 02:04
by RamaY
^ That is a slippery slope IMHO.

A better approach is to "recognize" suddhi-fied muslims as new kula's in Hindu Dharma. There is absolutely no need to "encourage" or "promote" marriages that are not initiated by the Boy/Girl themselves.

Your idea is no different from Theoji "asking for/demanding" Brahmin girls married to Dalits, as if that is the price one has to pay for allegiance to Dharmic fold. FYI, recently there was a 'failed' movie attempt in Telugu - which tried to suggest that Dalits must 'encourage' Brahmin women to have extra-marital affairs with them, so their (real/perceived) historical injustices are avenged.

The main reason behind Hindu MEN not marrying into non-Hindu families is mainly because of the (real/perceived) compatibility issues. I never came across a Hindu MAN marrying a non-Hindu women with an intention to "win/steal" a non-Hindu women. That is what makes Hinduism Dharmic, because it looks down on such intentions and calls them Asuric to begin with.
BUT BUT BUT

only if another Ahmadiyya in India can prove that he has converted 50 Indian Muslims to Ahmadiyya sect! That means for every 50 conversions in India, the Ahmadiyya in India can choose to recommend one Pakistani Ahmadiyya for refugee visa to India. If there are no security reasons to withhold the refuge, India would give it.
I would rather ask that Ahmadiya to become Hindu and live Hindu, nothing more nothing less. Indian Muslims, Pakistani Ahmadiyas and Pakistani Muslims are all same and are Indian Hindu responsibility.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 02:18
by Prem
Shuddi Via ..ddi route even though very exciting , but wont change the Kubhuddi in ages. Just maintain US Vs Them equation and neutralize the odurate leadership. The choice of swim or drown will bring every one in mainstream.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 02:22
by RamaY
True. The key is to make Islamists Dharmic. The process itself removes Islam from them. Here Islam is defined as all the aspects of it that separates it from Hindutva.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 03:06
by Atri
Intermarriage on large scale is impossible. One off instances won't make any difference. Why do people forget that no matter how much we curse it, jaati-system cuts two ways. Convert entire jaati and this solves the problem of marriage and social acceptability. It is like pre cut Cadbury bar, if only we understand our roots and learn how to eat this chocolate piece by piece. Dayanand saraswati is one good teacher to learn from and get ideas.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 03:15
by Prem
No harm in enjoying Rajesh;s method for short time on multiple scale but for long term solution , root canal cleaning cant be substtuted with birthcananal tuning.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 09:20
by RajeshA
RamaY ji,

I have mentioned perhaps in some other places as well, but when I speak of marriage between Hindu and Ahmadiyya, I speak of between same Jāti with the net suction effect from the Bharatiya side.

I am not speaking of individual boy/girl initiatives, but rather arranged marriages between individuals of Hindu Jāti 'A' and Ahmadiyyaized Muslim Jāti 'A', so that the Jāti channel can be used to pull entire Jātis from within Muslim society Hindu-wards.
RamaY wrote:I never came across a Hindu MAN marrying a non-Hindu women with an intention to "win/steal" a non-Hindu women. That is what makes Hinduism Dharmic, because it looks down on such intentions and calls them Asuric to begin with.
RamaY ji,

these are not intentions, but the means. Every situation poses a challenge, and there are ways, strategies of overcoming these challenges. That is why there is the concept of "Nishkam Karma" which allow one not to be tainted by the means used. The intention must however remain a noble one - to liberate an imprisoned individual into the freedom of Sanatan Dharma. There is nothing Asuric about that, especially as such marriage is not forced onto the other.
RamaY wrote:Your idea is no different from Theoji "asking for/demanding" Brahmin girls married to Dalits, as if that is the price one has to pay for allegiance to Dharmic fold. FYI, recently there was a 'failed' movie attempt in Telugu - which tried to suggest that Dalits must 'encourage' Brahmin women to have extra-marital affairs with them, so their (real/perceived) historical injustices are avenged.
Well RamaY ji,

according to me, Varnas don't even exist as a classification of social divisions, :wink: so there is no need for one class requiring to integrate somehow with another class. The divisions are based on Jāti/Kula.

However Sanatan Dharma allows all such groupings to have their own Smritis and thus rules. Sanatan Dharma allows each individual to have his own freedoms and the right to go against that Smriti which ultimately may force the individual to leave the grouping.

If through such freedoms of the individual, the individual does decide to violate the restrictions of a Smriti, and decide to make a union with somebody outside the grouping, than that is an individual matter and the individual would bear the consequences.

Of course it would be beneficial for a Jāti/Kula not to formulate Smritis which are excessively restrictive with regard to relations with other Jātis/Kulas in order to have a progressive cohesive Samaj which allows mobility.

However the prescription above as suggested in quotes is completely unacceptable as it is adharmic - the women of some other group are not meant to be targeted in any way for whatever reason including grievance, real or perceived. The women are Sanatan Dharmics and cannot be targeted or treated as a means to quench some feeling of injustice. They cannot be instrumentalized. That would go against Dharma. Injustice does not allow somebody to choose arbitrary means for avenging it within Dharmic society - of which so called Dalits and so called Brahmins are both a part, or should be.

I am however speaking of a Dharmic agenda. If converting Indian Muslims to Sanatan Dharma is not Dharmic, then why even do Shuddhi? If the agenda is Dharmic, and the issue is one of "means", then my view is to use the most painless strategy of dealing with Adharma which is effective. The method has to be proven as effective. If it is not effective, one would have to choose some other strategy, where the pain involved could be more. But Adharma has to be fought. It cannot be swept under the carpet.

What I am advocating is that Jātis/Kulas which have been divided through religion be united again through marital ties under Sanatan Dharma.

Marital ties allows the Dharmics to engage their relatives still living in an Adharmic setup, and to convince them to also undertake shuddhi. A single marital tie, can allow one to engage a whole extended family living in the Adharmic setup in this mission. It sets up a new channel of communication into that Adharmic society in competition to the channels of communication which the Mullah or the Padre has.
I would rather ask that Ahmadiya to become Hindu and live Hindu, nothing more nothing less. Indian Muslims, Pakistani Ahmadiyas and Pakistani Muslims are all same and are Indian Hindu responsibility.
It is the "nothing more" that is the issue. If the hurdle to having a fully Dharmic society in India was simply "asking", then we would have been all Dharmic a long time ago!

Shuddhi is not a water hole for them to which they will all come of their own volition and initiative. There is no magic which would ensure that.

One needs to engage them effectively. Marital ties across the religious divide within Jātis/Kulas is one such channel of engagement.

The reason one is afraid of this is because one lacks conviction in one's ability to persuade them to come over to this side of the bridge. On this one can work. Wealth differential would of course be a necessary prerequisite for this to work.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 09:27
by RamaY
RajeshA garu,

I never said marriages between willing individuals should be stopped on the basis of caste/varna.

However I always questioned the dhimmis who went behind fake definitions of love that undermined the very families that they claim to represent, and the Adharmics who claim that certain castes and Varnas must give their daughters to another set of castes and Varnas based on their slavish history.

There is a big difference between them.

Then comes the concept of Sama/Dana strategies to achieve social unity and cohesion. But even there,, marriage is the most worst form of it, because it gives very little or no value to the feelings and preferences of women. That bad-karma haunts the whole civilization for eons to come.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 10:02
by RajeshA
RamaY wrote:Then comes the concept of Sama/Dana strategies to achieve social unity and cohesion. But even there,, marriage is the most worst form of it, because it gives very little or no value to the feelings and preferences of women. That bad-karma haunts the whole civilization for eons to come.
RamaY ji,

actually marriage was used by the nobility in Bharat to forge ties across the Dharmic divide. There is a well-known story of the Hindu princess from Ayodhya going to Korea to establish a dynasty there.

The Mehndi came to Arabia as Indian princesses were married to pre-Islamic Arabs. This survived the Islamization of Arabia even.

Then we have the Mitannis giving princess Kiya in marriage to Akhenaten of Egypt.

The Bharatiya Nari was considered a repository of the Bharatiya civilizing meme - the Arya meme. Confident and trained in all matters of Bharatiya Sanskriti once married to some non-Arya, she brought the Arya memes into the new society, making it Dharmic and Arya.

----

I on the other hand am not speaking of giving Hindu women to Muslim men. On the contrary, I am speaking of Hindu men marrying Muslim women, thus creating a channel of communication, and the Muslim women once married getting tutelage from other women in the family in the Bharatiya Sanskriti.

I don't think the preferences of women are being ignored in this case.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 19:04
by RamaY
^ RajeshA garu,

As an un-washed narrow-minded hindu I can only give you some pointers.

There is a lot of difference between 'kanya-danam' as a yajna to help the man have progeny and start his lineage and giving women as a peace deal. The first kind produced the likes of sage Kapila where the second variety produced Shajahans and Aurangajebs.

One need not give away their women/daughters to get some of the influences you mentioned.

Bringing current generation Asurics into Dharmic fold cannot be done that way. Asuricness is minimized when Dharma stands firm and strong and puts the behaviarol and moral Laxmana Rekha, and starts protecting the people who are in its fold.

I read recently somewhere (is it the book Game of Thrones?) that explains this well...

When Dharmic forces (or Civilized/Arya) draw/specify these Lakshmana Rekhas and protect the people in its fold the Asuric forces flee into and limit themselves in the dark forests. When the walls of Dharma are weakened these Asuric forces start crossing the Lakshmana Rekha and create havoc in human society.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 19:58
by RajeshA
RamaY ji,

I repeat. There is no question of Hindu girls being given to the Adharmics - in peace deal, appeasement, love, or whatever.

The above mentioned examples of Dharmics giving their daughters in marriage to as yet Non-Vedics was simply meant to show that that has been a way of bringing powerful outlying kingdoms into the Vedic fold.

In the case of Islamics, that is not valid, simply because the Islamic meme is not a philosophical civilization meme but a theological cult meme. Giving a Hindu woman to an Islamic is like using her not as an ambassador of culture but as firewood. So I am not advocating that at all.

I am talking of a multi-stage process of bringing the Muslims into the Dharmic mainstream, which would involve

a) Ahmadiyyaization of Indian Muslims
b) Reinvigoration of the Jāti system among Ahmadiyyaized Muslims
c) Marriage among Hindu men and Ahmadiyya women within the same Jāti.
Asuricness is minimized when Dharma stands firm and strong and puts the behaviarol and moral Laxmana Rekha, and starts protecting the people who are in its fold.
Yes that would have been perhaps sufficient when Asurics were 1% or there were only Ashrafs in India. Today one would have to do invasive ideological surgery into Asuric society. Vitamins and Firewalls are not sufficient.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 20:13
by RamaY
RajeshA wrote: Yes that would have been perhaps sufficient when Asurics were 1% or there were only Ashrafs in India. Today one would have to do invasive ideological surgery into Asuric society. Vitamins and Firewalls are not sufficient.
Yatha Raja Tatha Praja!

Destroy the power structures of Asurics and the common men leave them in hordes. This is a time tested approach. This is like the Peace/War binary system Rudradevji explained in the other thread.

Strengthen Dharma to weaken Asuricness. In this war, numbers are not that important as we have seen in many Deva-Asura wars.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 10 Apr 2013 20:42
by RajeshA
RamaY ji,

but the power structures hide behind 170 million human shields! We need to make the human shield less dense, so that one may reach the power structures.

In fact we should try to make the human shield itself attack the power structures, and for that we need some effective levers - Ahmadiyya and Jātivad are two very useful tools.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 01:34
by devesh
RajeshA ji,

the method of large scale marriages will become viable once an "appropriate" Center comes to power. I am trying to encourage you here. the whole "shuddhi" business is nonsense. it failed long ago. it's about denying assets to the enemy, and I hate to categorize the women as "assets" but that is how Islam views them. when we understand that women are nothing more than "assets" for Islam, we realize one of the ways to undermine it.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 01:50
by RamaY
Trying to remember what I learned 20yrs ago w.r.t Hypothesis proof...

Premise 1: Islam considers women as assets that do not have equal rights as men.
Premise 2: Hinduism reveres women and they are equal to men

Hypothesis: Hindu men marrying Muslim women will pave way for attracting Muslims into Dharmic fold a.k.a Hinduism.

When a Hindu man convinces/proposes/takesaway/buys a Muslim woman for marriage, it will be a loss to Muslim men. This 'sense' of loss of property magnifies when it is 'perceived' as a part of strategy to undo Islam. Then Muslim men get enraged and will put forward following preventive measures
1. Restrict the interactions of Muslim women
2. Kill/excommunicate the Muslim women who are married outside Islam
3. Go on rampage against Hindus wherever they can
4. Go offensive and do reverse love jihad

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 01:57
by RajeshA
devesh ji,

Here is an old post of mine on the issue of Muslim Pride and Women.

Like in the story of the demon whose life was in a parrot, Islam's life is in the control over the woman. I would go so far as saying that without control over the woman, Islam loses its whole meaning.

There is going to be a dearth of 50 million women for the Indian men. Why not tap into the source.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 01:59
by Prem
Rajesh Ji is trying to turn human snakes with the brain size of pea into honey gatheirng bees to produce Shahad. His options is valid only after the removal of certain percentage of Weed before ploughing the field as the Qitab claims.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 02:04
by RamaY
RajeshA wrote:devesh ji,

Here is an old post of mine on the issue of Muslim Pride and Women.

Like in the story of the demon whose life was in a parrot, Islam's life is in the control over the woman. I would go so far as saying that without control over the woman, Islam loses its whole meaning.

There is going to be a dearth of 50 million women for the Indian men. Why not tap into the source.
To do this we need a constipational change. Recently there was a SC court order that an Arya Samaj marriage between a Hindu Boy and Muslim Girl was not valid. Dont remember the detail but SC said the marriage has to be as per the customs of the girl's religion or something like that.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 02:11
by RajeshA
RamaY wrote:Then Muslim men get enraged and will put forward following preventive measures
1. Restrict the interactions of Muslim women
2. Kill/excommunicate the Muslim women who are married outside Islam
3. Go on rampage against Hindus wherever they can
4. Go offensive and do reverse love jihad
A marriage to a Hindu man can mean a source of monthly income and general financial support for the woman's family. The Muslim family can have many options.
  • They can lie that their daughter has been married to a Hindu.
  • They can lie and say the marriage is to a Muslim.
  • They can lie and claim that the husband converted to Islam.
  • They can claim that he is only pro-forma a Hindu and thus retains a Hindu name but is in fact a Muslim.
  • They can claim that the man has sympathies for the Islamic cause and the marriage merely ensures that it stays that way.
  • They can use any amount of Taqiyya.
  • They can also rebel and themselves opt for Shuddhi.
Such rebels in Islam would however need to be given protection.

I am suggesting the above simply to show that a such marriages need not result in a violent reaction.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 02:17
by RamaY
^ I see what you are saying. I have experience in this ;)

One way to avoid direct and immediate conflict is to marry from outside immediate region/locality. For example from a different district or state if it is withing India. One place to start is on-line matrimony sites.

Word of caution - This helps only when this is mainly approached to fill the male:female gap.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 02:21
by devesh
RamaY wrote:
When a Hindu man convinces/proposes/takesaway/buys a Muslim woman for marriage, it will be a loss to Muslim men. This 'sense' of loss of property magnifies when it is 'perceived' as a part of strategy to undo Islam. Then Muslim men get enraged and will put forward following preventive measures
1. Restrict the interactions of Muslim women
2. Kill/excommunicate the Muslim women who are married outside Islam
3. Go on rampage against Hindus wherever they can
4. Go offensive and do reverse love jihad

Excellent!

that only prepares the ground for retaliation by the Hindus.
it makes sure that the real attitudes are kept alive in the memory of the Hindus.
any "fighting" by the Jihadis is welcome. it rips the facade of "peace" and taqyia.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 03:06
by Agnimitra
Collected from previous BRF discussions:

The Dasyu-Dāsa dynamic vs. "class struggle" theory
What is the relationship between conflict and service? Anything on social justice and political transformation in the "primitive" Vedas? Actually I think understanding the injustices of politics, economics and ideology/religion as a Dasyu-Dāsa dynamic from all angles is far more enlightening as a theory than the demagoguery of half-arse "class struggle" semantics found in Marxist historiography. The former offers an insight, the latter only incites. The former is a truer observation and is psychological, the latter is opportunistic and based on justified thought conceived in an unstable condition.

There is a prominent sentiment in the Veda that calls upon the divinity Indra, Thunder-wielder, for help in liquidating those corrupt crackpots who play power games solely on the strength of being high-born, exclusive esoteric mystics, saviors from an oppressive foe, charismatics, fortuitous chosen races, and whatnot, and who instigate or mobilize large numbers of brainwashed orcs to wield political power:

Rg Veda 6.42.04:
अस्मा अस्मा इदन्धसोSध्वर्यो प्र भरा सुतम् ।
कुवित्समस्य जेन्यस्य शर्धतोSभिशस्तेरवस्परत् ॥

"To him, Adhvaryu! yea, to him give offerings of the juice expressed.
Will he not keep us safely from the spiteful curse of each presumptuous high-born foe?"

Rg Veda 6.19.12:
जनं वज्रिन्महि चिन्मन्यमानमेभ्यो नृभ्यो रन्धया येष्वस्मि ।
अधा हि त्वा पृथिव्यां शूरसातौ हवामहे तनये गोष्वप्सु ॥

"Give up the people who are high and haughty to these men and to me, O Thunder-wielder!
Therefore upon the earth do we invoke thee, where heroes win, for sons and kine and waters."

This "high-born" foe is apparently the "Dasyu", who often lead the "Dāsas". A friend explained: The problem starts with development of personality-cults, whether in the form of deities or their spokespersons on earth. Elite sense of entitlement to power, but marginalization within the elite, leads to search for mobilization outside the elites. Once the non-elite has been mobilized to destroy intra-elite competitors, the new-power goes back to older elite drives. This is when personality cult develops - and a new elite base forms, often accompanied by sequential purges to reduce the number of competitors for power, and a coterie reinforces the personality cult. Net result - a society of "dāsas" under an elite super-personality. A slave society in more ways than one.
...

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 04:27
by Prem
devesh wrote:
RamaY wrote: Excellent!
that only prepares the ground for retaliation by the Hindus.
it makes sure that the real attitudes are kept alive in the memory of the Hindus.
any "fighting" by the Jihadis is welcome. it rips the facade of "peace" and taqyia.
This is what i call Provoke , Expose and Dispose policy. Jo Arre So Charre attitude will go long way solving these perrenial issues.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 06:57
by RamaY
^ that's all fine.

But one of the reason for all this "Art of Pyar" is the fact that the Asurics out number dharmics. Then what is the point of provoking the majority?

I think there are much better options. Please note that when we try to promote love across loc, others can pay us in the same coin.

When Bharatiyas become self aware and self assertive, the mlechas will revert back to dharmic fold on their own.

I know I am a lone voice but using women as some bait is not dharmic, in any form.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 09:54
by RajeshA
RamaY ji,

till now all marital relations between Hindus and Muslims have been along the criteria
  1. Hindu Woman marries Muslim Man: mostly she converts and becomes pious, in case she doesn't the Muslim man is playing the secular taqiyya for commercial benefits; the children are however always Muslims
  2. Hindu Man marries Muslim Woman: the man always converts to Islam; the children are also Muslims; often the man even breaks relations with his blood relatives if they are not willing to convert too
This is Islamic assertiveness, pure and simple. That is why Hindus do not approve of any marital relations between Hindus and Muslims.

Islamics contend that such rules are fundamental to their beliefs. Hindus however despite their aversion to this usually do not think that if their child does that, it brings down Sanatan Dharma itself.

That is also one of the reason I advocate Hindu-Muslim marital relations - Hindu Man, Muslim Woman - BECAUSE it causes it is a direct attack on the Islamic order, when Muslim women start integrating into Hindu families and embrace Hindu customs. This is a direct non-violent doctrinal attack on the Islamic ideology. It is all about telling them that we cannot show deference to them on such an issue.

One really needs a multi-vector strategy for integrating Indian Muslims into the Hindu mainstream. What you proposed earlier is the fundamental position Hindus need to adopt, no doubt. But one also needs strategies to "invade" Islamic society and to unravel it.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 09:57
by RajeshA
Cross-posting a post by Rudradev from the "Thesis: Peace unlikely in next 25 years" Thread in order to look at solutions

Shiv,

I think it's important that we look beyond the geopolitical context when discussing what "peace" really is supposed to mean.

The commonly understood meaning of "peace" is a binary antithesis to a declared state of "war". That definition is hardly relevant nowadays. When you consider what national life in the 21st century has become, "peace" today is the consensual point of equilibrium to which the citizenry of a nation accustoms itself, along the entire spectrum from Bhutan-like idyllic serenity to all-out conventional military conflict. That point of equilibrium is something different in the US, the UK, China, India and even Pakistan. As long as there are no catastrophic challenges (like, say, 9/11 in the USA)-- whatever conditions are commonly agreed upon to represent a state of "peace" in that society will prevail. So it is a stable equilibrium.

We keep hearing that all these initiatives are being taken to promote "peace" with Pakistan. Aman ki Asha, MFN, uninterruptible dialogue and what not. But nobody seems to ask the question... what is that "peace" we are seeking to promote? How is it qualitatively different from the prevailing set of conditions in which Indian citizens now live and function, and have lived and functioned in for the last generation or so? Certain parties are clearly trying to sell this idea of "peace" as something we must make concessions to Pakistan in exchange for... but what is that idea other than a mere sentimentalized abstraction?

In geopolitical terms, India has enjoyed uninterrupted "peace" (or, what is consensually agreed upon by the Indian citizenry to represent "peace") since 1971. There has been a contained state of war (Kargil) and a military mobilization (Parakram) but even those are now more than a decade in the past! A huge proportion of India's population is too young even to remember these events, let alone the last time when we were actually in a state of declared "war".

Now proxy war has been ongoing, of course. It has existed in Punjab, Kashmir, the Northeast and the Maoist Hinterland throughout the last two decades, and increasingly in the rest of India over the last decade. This is not a war where India takes the fight to the enemy, however.

What this proxy war means for the State is a need to maintain increased vigilance and to engage in essentially defensive counterterrorism and counterinsurgency strategies. What it means for the common Indian citizen is a threat of terrorist attacks impinging on daily life.

But is this the same as "real" war, in terms of the psychosocial impact it has on Indian citizens? Not at all. It is just something we have grown used to. We don't stop doing business or working hard at our jobs or planning long-term futures for our families on the basis of this proxy war. Yes, it can happen that we will get blown up while waiting for a bus tomorrow... but all things considered, most Indian citizens in most parts of India have weighed the odds and decided it's not much greater a worry than, say, getting run over by the bus itself, or dying in a house fire, or of some nasty communicable disease. It's a danger, but one we quite easily cope with and get on with our lives in spite of.

That is not the kind of impact a war, real war, has on a national psyche. It is simply one arbitrary grey point along the serenity-hostility spectrum where the consensus among Indian citizens is to get on with our lives, having weighed the risks to daily life after two decades of lived experience. For Indians, this situation that we all currently live with is what we call "peace". In fact, even something as notionally challenging to this equilibrium as 26/11 just wasn't enough to transform the mindset of Indians away from thinking that what we live with right now is basically "peace".

And, to the utter discombobulation of all those "peace" activists who demand concessions to Pakistan, be they Wagah Candle Kissers in Delhi lounges or sanctimonious Non-Proliferation A$$holes at Washington institutions... the state of "peace" that India knows is not something we merely live with. It is something we THRIVE with. We prosper and prosper, achieve greater and greater economic heights, and when we complain of the things that make economic life difficult we talk about scams, inflation and corruption... NOT about the lack of "peace".

So then what are all these initiatives aimed at "talking to Pakistan", "befriending Pakistan", "engaging with Pakistan" etc. supposed to deliver? What is the threat, the Damocles sword hanging over our nation's collective heads that makes us say "we must have Peace with Pakistan"? What will happen if we don't make concessions to Pakistan? On the other hand, what is the promised reward... held out by the Pakis and the "peace" constituency in India and Washington... that is supposed to entice us towards making this "peace"?

I have an answer for this. But it is not a politically correct answer.

According to one of the few strictures of political correctness that apply on BRF, we are not supposed to mention Pakistan and Indian Muslims in the same thread, let alone the same breath. These are two entirely different animals, goes the conventional wisdom. We should never impute the motives of one as explanation for the behaviour of the other, under any circumstances.

Yet it seems increasingly obvious to me that there is a constituency in India which is largely comprised of, and held hostage to, the agenda of some members of the Ashraf Caste of Indian Muslims. Ashrafs are the Muslim Castes who proudly claim descent from a "superior" lineage of foreign pillagers. Ashrafs enjoyed special status under British colonialism, and laid the ideological groundwork for the creation of Pakistan. Unfortunately, even after partition, many sections of the Ashraf Caste did not go to Pakistan and transmute into RAPEs. A very large section of them stayed back in India, and for generations since independence, they have milked the system of state patronage and vote-bank appeasement for maximum profit.

Many members of this Ashraf Lobby occupy influential, suited-booted positions in the media, in law, in industry, and even in government. Other members of this Lobby exercise disproportionate influence over the Ajlafs, or Lower Caste Indian Muslims, by dominating influential nodes of Islamic clergy (such as Dar Ul Uloom Madrassa and Jama Masjid), thug-infested political networks of the hinterland (such as the MIM or Samajwadi Party cadres), and organized criminal syndicates. Still others are active in so-called "intelligensia" circles, masquerading as academics, NGO-operators, social workers or left-wing political activists.

However, in their program vis-a-vis the Indian State and the non-Muslim Indian people, the entire Ashraf Lobby shares a united purpose: the domination of India's resources to benefit themselves in the name of Islam. In this project they share a greater commonality of interest with the Pakistani RAPE than with any group in India, including Indian Ajlaf Muslims (whom they regard as cannon-fodder at best.)

Of late, it has been dawning on this Ashraf Lobby that their 66-year ride on the gravy train may soon be coming to an end. Since Independence they have relentlessly practiced the politics of victimhood; they have jealously hoarded of the benefits of "secular" pandering for their own small sub-sectional sliver of India's Muslim population; and they have constantly blackmailed central governments in Delhi while positioning themselves as the sole guarantors of Indian Muslim mass loyalty to India rather than Pakistan. Yet, over the last two decades, all of these projects have begun to offer steadily diminishing returns.

There are many reasons for this. We can identify several landmarks and trends along the way. Just to name a few: the aftermath of the Shah Bano case. The rise of Hindu political assertiveness as part of the mainstream political landscape. And MOST dramatically, the descent of Pakistan into utter state failure and chaos. Once that great bulwark of Islamic subcontinental nationhood was no longer a credible military threat to India, or a credible alternative to blackmail the GOI with, the Ashraf Lobby was forced to change its tune rapidly.

Today we see a situation where the Ashraf Lobbies on both sides of the Radcliffe line are playing good cop-bad cop with the Indian government. But the cop roles have switched.

Earlier, the Indian Ashraf Lobby was the good cop... making sure that India's privileged Ashraf Caste received all sorts of government benefits, "first rights on Indian resources" etc. in exchange for keeping the Indian Muslim masses loyal to India rather than Pakistan. Meanwhile the Pakistani Ashraf Lobby, or RAPE, acted as "bad cop"... threatening war and dismemberment of India under an Islamist banner and wearing a Jernail's uniform.

Today the positions have reversed. Under immense pressure of sanction, isolation and outright ridicule from their former friends in the West, the Pakistani Ashraf Lobby, or RAPEs, have largely switched around to being the "good cop". Their message to GOI is: give concessions to Pakistan on Kashmir, on Siachen, on territory and trade... after all we are all pappi jhappi birathers onlee and we can be one big happy South Asian family onlee.

Meanwhile the Indian Ashraf Lobby have compensated for the current weaknened state of the RAPEs, by becoming the bad cops. Thanks to the Karachi project on the one hand, and Manmohan Singh's initiatives on the other, India's official policy has become NOT to blame Pakistan for acts of terrorism within India, but rather to blame "indigenous" groups like the "Indian Mujahedin" as if they were operating in a vacuum... or even worse, to blame fictitious "Saffron Terrorists" wherever possible.

So here is how all this connects to my original thoughts about "peace".

The Indian Ashraf Lobby is essentially holding out a veiled threat against the Indian nation. Give concessions to Pakistan. Give them territory and respectability and economic freebies. Do this in the name of "peace"... because WE have the power to mobilize, not Pakistani jihadis, but Indian Muslim Masses against the Indian state and people.

In recent times, with the imminent decline of the Congress Party's political fortunes signaling a possibly permanent and abrupt end to the Ashraf Lobby's gravy train, the "veiled" threat is no longer so "veiled." It is coming out in the open. It is telling us that failure to continue with the "peace" process vis-a-vis Pakistan, i.e. a cessation of giveaways and handouts from India to Pakistan, will lead to a sustained, dramatic worsening of the security situation within India, through the action of Indian Muslims. It will destroy the level of "peace" to which the Indian citizenry has consensually accustomed itself over the last two decades.

Please read this article by an Ashraf Lobby bad cop threatening what will happen if Narendra Modi (or anyone else who might stop the GOI's Pakistan appeasement program) becomes Prime Minister. It is laid out as "fiction" but the message is loud and clear. If you stop giving Pakistan what they want, we will make sure that Indian Muslims rise up and wage war against the Indian Government. I would like to thank the gentleman who wrote this article a million times for finally going one step too far and lifting the veil from before our eyes.
The worst (ever) case scenario


By OMAR AKHTAR

Published: Sun, 07 April 2013 09:21 PM



The article is intended to highlight the danger of power-grabbing, communal politics. It is a work of fiction.


It is 2014 in India. The Hindu-nationalistic IJP wins the election by a slender majority on its own, obviating the need for coalition, the first such time in India since 1984. The upper middle class votes in droves for the party, fed up with the corrupt Conference Party-led government in New Delhi. Led by the charismatic, Mahendra Bodi, the IJP starts on the path to, ‘repay the debt of Bharat Mata.’

Soon after election, Mr Bodi stops all negotiations with Pakistan, effectively ending talks on enhancing trade and cooperation between the two warring neighbours. ‘Kashmir is not up for discussion,’ thunders Mr Bodi in his first address to Parliament. He asks Parliament to remember the 1994 resolution which clearly stated that the ‘dispute’ was over ‘Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).’ The statement sends shockwaves in Kashmir. Protests are held. Arrests are made. Curfew is imposed. Mr Bodi calls on the Army and Paramilitary to fend off the protestors, and deal with the situation with an ‘iron fist.’ In a bloody trip to the Valley, Mr Bodi, recalling his march in 1992 to Srinagar to raise the Indian flag in Lal Chowk, dares the ‘Pakistanis’ to come and meet him in Lal Chowk. A protest march is fired upon. Dozens are killed. Kashmir witnesses its bloodiest day in years. The curfew continues. Kashmiris in other parts of India hold marches in solidarity with their Kashmiri brethren. The protests are broken up, many are arrested. Some are convicted of ‘terrorist’ and ‘anti-national’ acts under a new law introduced to specifically counter protests against Security Forces deployed in disturbed areas. The JKNC and PDP legislators from the Valley, aghast at the brutal treatment, call on Mr Bodi to hold back his forces. The Assembly is dismissed. The State Elections of 2014 are postponed. The harsh winter of 2014-15 is like a particularly severe winter 25 years ago, with the daily doses of killings, curfews, and crackdowns. The press, one of the strongest institutions in Kashmir, is gagged for months. The internet shuts down. An eerie silence descends upon the Valley…



The ‘Grand Plan’ was to obliterate Muslims. But the Plan falters. The Muslims are prepared. They close ranks. The battles make the Syrian and Iraqi Civil Wars look like child’s play. Brave last stands are made. The Battle of India begins. The Day of Judgement is definitely near…



In a surprising development, Muslim organisations from Hyderabad to Kerala and Uttar Pradesh hold solidarity marches, to call on the government to refrain from imposing harsh measures against the population in Kashmir. Clashes erupt between parallel marches in some major cities, between the Muslim marches and a particularly virulent Hindu organisation organising marches on the same day. The Police, instructed to watch and do nothing, do exactly that. Communal clashes see dozens killed, most of them Muslims, in systematic attacks against businesses and professionals, in a few days, reminiscent of a sad chapter in India’s history when a ‘Nero’ stood watching as his State burnt. Political parties, led by Congress, call for peace, but blame the Muslims for ‘starting’ the trouble.

A few weeks later in 2015, bomb blasts occur outside the offices of the Hindu organisation blamed for most of the violence. In three hours, twelve blasts destroy the organisations’ offices in different cities throughout India. Hundreds are killed when buildings collapse on them in a major city, dozens more when another bomb blast occurs at the moment rescuers are trying to save the injured.

Mr Bodi goes on TV. ‘To every action there is a reaction.’ A theory he had propounded a few years ago to justify carnage against Muslims in a different era. The reaction happens. Systematically, almost to perfection, targeted killings and bomb blasts occur in succession in every state ruled by the IJP. The Police suspected to have played a role in the acquisition of the bomb-making materials. Some Muslim Officers are dismissed for having alerted Muslims before the blasts. The plan was perhaps hatched a long time before the spark. Mosques, Shrines, Madrassas, and major places of congregation for Muslims are targeted. Historical monuments are severely damaged. Thousands die in an orgy of violence.

‘Follow the Burmese model,’ say some particularly savage votaries of the violence. ‘The result is a foregone conclusion,’ says one member of the Hindu organisation. ‘We have to restore Hindu-rule. These Muslims are invaders, they have to be killed.’

But the Muslim middle-class, now fully aware of its identity and conscious of its religious duties, responds in an unexpected way. The ‘Grand Plan’ was for them to be pushed to refugee camps, their property taken away from them, and ultimately, like advised by the late founder of a party with a strong base in Maharashtra, ‘Remove the Muslims from the electoral lists.’ The Plan falters. The Muslims are prepared. They close ranks. From the ghettos of large cities, the small towns in the Gangetic plains; from seminaries in the North, to the colleges in the South; from large mosques to large Shrines, the Muslims fight to death. The battles make the Syrian and Iraqi Civil Wars look like child’s play. Brave last stands are made. The Battle of India begins. The Day of Judgement is definitely near…

Please read and realize exactly what this Ashraf Caste is saying. FORGET about the "Narendra Modi" angle (that is just a convenient hook and has no bearing on the message).

The author of this article is saying that raising the Indian flag in Srinagar, and reiterating the 1994 Parliamentary Resolution that POK is part of India... will be enough to invoke a response from INDIAN Muslims, across the nation, that will make the Iraqi and Syrian Civil Wars look like "child's play."

THIS is the threat to "peace" that we are being intimidated into averting by making concessions to Pakistan. The threat is not anything Pakistan can do directly... but rather, the promise of a jihad waiting to happen by Indian Muslims, under the leadership of Ashraf Caste Indian Muslims, against the Indian nation.

There is only one way to guarantee the perpetuation of our current form of "peace" in India, and it has nothing to do with Pakistan. What is needed is to liberate the Ajlaf Castes, who form 85% of the Indian Muslim population, from the poisonous dominance of the Ashrafs. And to do away with the blackmailing Ashraf Lobby by any and all necessary means.

Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Posted: 11 Apr 2013 10:00
by RajeshA
Cross-posting from the "Thesis: Peace unlikely in next 25 years" Thread in order to look at solutions

Rudradev ji,

Here is one of your earliest posts addressed to me - some three years ago.

After 3 years, today I see the use of this strategy.

1) One needs a strict separation between the Ashrafs and the Ajlafs. While the Ashrafs would remain Deobandi, Ajlafs should move to Ahmadiyya.

2) Secondly whereas Ashrafs have no Indic Jāti, Ajlafs have Indic Jāti, and they need to reconnect again to that.

3) There needs to be vigorous contact between the Bharatiyas and the Ajlafs, especially at the Jāti level, pulling them further the later into the Bharatiya mainstream.

4) The Ashrafs need to be encouraged to emigrate to Britain - the world's asuric junkyard!