India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Nov 2015 13:38

This report shows the depth of talent available within India and how even the NaMO govt is yet to recognize how to address the issue. Process and procedures are fine, but companies like Tonbo need extra support and handholding from the GOI to become industry champions. A $12.7Mn order? What about orders and a special product for our umpteen BMPs and T-72s which are currently relying on ELBIT. To make sure its a win-win, have Tonbo work with Alpha & IRDE (which is already swamped with work and would welcome Tonbo like companies). In short, "preferential treatment" towards Indian SMEs is a must. This includes companies with a proven track record like Alpha, Datapatterns, Astra etc.

vasu raya wrote:Night-vision startup Tonbo bags multimillion dollar contracts

It is now the only Indian company whose night vision systems will be featured for the Indian Navy’s 12.7 mm remote controlled gun platforms.

The Navy will deploy the platform on ships to fight against pirates and terrorists. Mr. Lakshmikumar said Tonbo had also become the electro-optics supplier of choice to bidders on the Indian Army’s Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle programme. The almost $10 billion (Rs.66,210 crore) project is slated to be the largest indigenous defence programme.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Nov 2015 15:30

^+1

But I guess, its not as easy as that, with all the push back from the babus and the forces.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Nov 2015 16:41

If Modi wants he can do a lot - you saw the result with Tejas Make in India proclamations etc despite the antics of "unnamed AF officers" who will delay, prevaricate while hankering for imports. The problem IMHO is he thinks reforming the process will automatically make things better. But it by itself is not enough, we need to sponsor and support our Make In India SME/MSME and large pvt firms, allegations of impropriety be darned. For that, get some McKinsey or local NitiAayog paper to support official sponsor to selected pvt firms (use the policy paper to specify which companies deserve to be supported eg TATAS, L&T from the large cluster have supported Indian defence and DRDO through thick and thin, they are proven) and give them a few big orders. Similarly create a corpus which Tonbo type firms can use... all this is similar to what the US does.. or even the USSR.. with its overt sponsorship of specific designers..

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 14 Nov 2015 18:30

vasu raya wrote:Night-vision startup Tonbo bags multimillion dollar contracts

It is now the only Indian company whose night vision systems will be featured for the Indian Navy’s 12.7 mm remote controlled gun platforms.

The Navy will deploy the platform on ships to fight against pirates and terrorists. Mr. Lakshmikumar said Tonbo had also become the electro-optics supplier of choice to bidders on the Indian Army’s Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle programme. The almost $10 billion (Rs.66,210 crore) project is slated to be the largest indigenous defence programme.

I first heard of Tonbo a couple of years ago. They did not position themselves as catering to Indian customers only. In fact, they were more active in the international market. Glad, they are making good progress. I believe some of the car companies too are their customers for collision detection.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Nov 2015 00:52

shiv wrote:<SNIP>In coastal defence in this video - watch from the point linked below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... geEo#t=125

A slight correction - the video is not of one of Coastal defense but from the Army AD Corps Gopalpur-on-Sea training center; that is how they practice firing these weapon systems. From beach towards the sea. IAF also has a similar set-up in Andhra Pradesh at a place called Suryalanka where all of their missile firing/practice happens.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 15 Nov 2015 00:57

Tonbo is well known internationally in the medical imaging field. Shocked and surprised at their low level of penetration with the Indian markets

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 01:17

This is cutting edge stuff. Its baffling how blase we are about supporting our own companies while Israel and France supply us items at much greater cost.
http://tonboimaging.com/wp/products-2/v ... magnus-90/

DRDO and CSIR should be funded to use such companies to indigenize every EO item from periscopes to soldier sights. BEL should be working with these guys as well.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2015 06:03

rohitvats wrote:
shiv wrote:<SNIP>In coastal defence in this video - watch from the point linked below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... geEo#t=125
A slight correction - the video is not of one of Coastal defense but from the Army AD Corps Gopalpur-on-Sea training center; that is how they practice firing these weapon systems. From beach towards the sea. IAF also has a similar set-up in Andhra Pradesh at a place called Suryalanka where all of their missile firing/practice happens.

OK

Suryalanka and missile testing is seen in this video from the point linked below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... fCPk#t=508

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 15 Nov 2015 10:29

Karan M wrote:If Modi wants he can do a lot - you saw the result with Tejas Make in India proclamations etc despite the antics of "unnamed AF officers" who will delay, prevaricate while hankering for imports. The problem IMHO is he thinks reforming the process will automatically make things better. But it by itself is not enough, we need to sponsor and support our Make In India SME/MSME and large pvt firms, allegations of impropriety be darned. For that, get some McKinsey or local NitiAayog paper to support official sponsor to selected pvt firms (use the policy paper to specify which companies deserve to be supported eg TATAS, L&T from the large cluster have supported Indian defence and DRDO through thick and thin, they are proven) and give them a few big orders. Similarly create a corpus which Tonbo type firms can use... all this is similar to what the US does.. or even the USSR.. with its overt sponsorship of specific designers..

Modi Govt does not seem to have Ministers who are either daring or experienced enough to overrule stonewalling babus or import pasand Jarnails.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Nov 2015 13:35

shiv wrote:...

OK

Suryalanka and missile testing is seen in this video from the point linked below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... fCPk#t=508

Thanks for the video. Reminded me of my own Air Sea Survival course.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2015 13:42

deejay wrote:
Thanks for the video. Reminded me of my own Air Sea Survival course.

Hmm did you get dropped in like that? Looks scary even for a person who has swum out at sea. I got the impression that the poor guy who was being hoisted up "rescued" was under stress because he had his knees flexed and arms out in what appeared to be an effort to keep himself calm. I don't blame him - can't be the most pleasant experience - but is that the thing to do - knees bent and arms out while being hoisted up into a helo?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Nov 2015 14:38

shiv wrote:
deejay wrote:
Thanks for the video. Reminded me of my own Air Sea Survival course.
Hmm did you get dropped in like that? Looks scary even for a person who has swum out at sea. I got the impression that the poor guy who was being hoisted up "rescued" was under stress because he had his knees flexed and arms out in what appeared to be an effort to keep himself calm. I don't blame him - can't be the most pleasant experience - but is that the thing to do - knees bent and arms out while being hoisted up into a helo?

Yes, got dropped and picked up like so and had the opportunity to drop others.

But that is just a small part and if you can overcome the initial hesitation, it is actually fun.

05 days survival in sea in a 04 man dinghy with just some dry rations etc is a tough course. Kind of helps you empathize with those adrift on the seas.

Fighter guys have it worst. They have to do the survival alone.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2015 14:57

deejay wrote: Yes, got dropped and picked up like so and had the opportunity to drop others. But that is just a small part and if you can overcome the initial hesitation, it is actually fun.

05 days survival in sea in a 04 man dinghy with just some dry rations etc is a tough course. Kind of helps you empathize with those adrift on the seas.

Fighter guys have it worst. They have to do the survival alone.

Well I guess it is essential. I get a not-so-pleasant memory of a time when I was working in the UK - early 1980s. I was in Great Yarmouth - which is the "bulge" of the UK on the right side abutting the North Sea. The cold war was still on and I met a lady who worked in a radar early warning unit. I was speaking of Indian aircraft of that era - mostly variants of MiGs apart from the Jag and she pointed out that that they had to look out for precisely those aircraft as "Soviet/enemy aircraft".

The hospital had a helipad and people rescued/picked up from the sea would be brought to the hospital in a helo - usually a Sea King which gave me no end of pleasure to watch. One day I was the emergency man on duty and I was asked to "certify" a body that had been found. I picked up my stuff and walked to the morgue to see a badly decomposed corpse. It was the pilot of a helo that had gone down at sea a couple of weeks earlier. The North Sea is extremely cold. People die after 10 minutes of exposure but the decomposition is much slower because of the cold.

Although I used to swim in the sea regularly in warm, tropical Pondicherry as a student, the only time I managed to get into the North Sea was at the height of summer - one warm August afternoon. Even then the surface water was warmish but it was icy cold below.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 23:14

Karan M wrote:Huge development! Now with this and LWT, we finally have a base off of which we can continue with more variants, subsystem advancement etc.

Varunastra – the heavy torpedo – designed and developed by the NSTL had already gone through user evaluation trials and is waiting for clearance to go into production.

The NSTL has developed both light-water torpedoes (LWTs), named TAL, and heavy-weight torpedoes (HWTs), named Takshak and Varunastra. Takshak has two versions, a submarine-launched variant with wire guidance and a ship-launched one with autonomous guidance. Varunastra is an advanced version of the ship-launched HWT. Under development is a torpedo called Shakti with thermal propulsion, which can generate 500 kilowatt of power and rev up the engine within a second. Thermal propulsion is a challenging technology, said Rangarajan. It is a totally indigenous effort. We have already consolidated several technologies in its development. Only the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia had torpedoes with thermal propulsion when we took up the challenge.

Varunastra, which is ready for trials by the Navy, weighs more than one tonne and contains 250 kg of explosives. It travels at a speed of 40 knots an hour, going in circles and bobbing up and down to attack targets. K. Sudhakar, Principal Associate Director, NSTL, called the torpedo's homing device, located in its front portion, “its eyes and ears” as it detects and tracks the target. Its guidance system enables it to take the optimum path towards the target, and its onboard computer guides its rudder's navigation towards the target. The warhead has a proximity fuse, with the blast occurring about 8 m from the target. “The torpedo should have its own intelligence to reject the decoy and go towards the target,” Sudhakar said. Besides, torpedoes should be water-tight. “Development of a torpedo takes 10 to 15 years. It has to go through several sea trials. We started out in this field 25 years ago. No torpedo technology is available in the open market,” he added.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 509800.htm

[/quote]

Karan M wrote:See from 4:07 onwards for actual Varunastra vidclip.

https://youtu.be/KQUgFz4QWKc?t=248

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Nov 2015 23:15

Aditya G wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 879187.ece

A state-of-the-art facility to test ship design by examining ship models and submerged bodies in simulated sea conditions – Seakeeping and Manoeuvring Basin (SMB) – at the Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) was dedicated to the nation by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar here on Saturday.

The Rs.168-crore facility for experimental hydro dynamics for testing ship models and submerged bodies built for use by the Indian Navy could be used even by civilian ship builders, the Defence Minister said, congratulating the scientists and staff of the NSTL for building the facility. SMB helps test models to predict seakeeping and manoeuvring performance of newly designed ships and submerged bodies under different environmental conditions and for optimising the motion characteristics of the hull form and effectiveness of the control devices under various manoeuvres.

SMB is the latest as far as technology is concerned and is on par with any of the commercially available equipment across the world.

The facility was designed and developed using Indian equipment.

Expendable decoy

The Minister formally handed over the Advanced Anti-Torpedo Defence System, ‘Maareech’, designed and developed by the NSTL, to the Indian Navy. He also handed over an expendable decoy to Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R.K. Dhowan. Already, 40 systems have been manufactured and are being deployed in Navy ships. The highly advanced system goes to prove that India is capable of producing even high level of technology, the Minister pointed out.

Varunastra – the heavy torpedo – designed and developed by the NSTL had already gone through user evaluation trials and is waiting for clearance to go into production.

The good coordination between the Navy and the DRDO is worth emulating, the Minister said, referring to the projects delivered by the NSTL and urged the DRDO to ensure that future projects were integrated with users.

The NSTL, using the concurrent technology model, has been working closely with users and manufacturers to ensure minimum lag in acceptance and production, Outstanding Scientist and Director, NSTL, C.D. Malleswar said.

...

Also, first pic of Mareech decoys.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 877070.ece

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Nov 2015 01:19

shiv wrote: Suryalanka and missile testing is seen in this video from the point linked below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... fCPk#t=508

Nice video. Enjoyed it along with deejay's explanation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Nov 2015 05:28

Karan M wrote:

Karan M wrote:See from 4:07 onwards for actual Varunastra vidclip.

https://youtu.be/KQUgFz4QWKc?t=248

[/quote]
From that clip - what is a "bolometer"? Does it tell everything?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 16 Nov 2015 06:27

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:

Karan M wrote:See from 4:07 onwards for actual Varunastra vidclip.

https://youtu.be/KQUgFz4QWKc?t=248

From that clip - what is a "bolometer"? Does it tell everything?

[/quote]

A bolometer measurees radiation levels

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Nov 2015 07:42

Mareech decoys

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Nov 2015 18:50

Saw a brief "Make in India" commercial, yesterday, on CNN.

And, today, this in WashPost:

India's Defense Sector Beckons Foreign Investor

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-stat/ ... esktop.png

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Nov 2015 19:18

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:

Karan M wrote:See from 4:07 onwards for actual Varunastra vidclip.

https://youtu.be/KQUgFz4QWKc?t=248

From that clip - what is a "bolometer"? Does it tell everything?

[/quote]

LOL, good one!

A bolometer (Greek: βολόμετρον "bolometron", meaning measurer (-μετρον) of thrown things (βολο-) ) is a device for measuring the power of incident electromagnetic radiation via the heating of a material with a temperature-dependent electrical resistance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 18 Nov 2015 06:24

After finishing day's work, Air Marshal SB Deo puts together components for smart bombs, missiles at home lab

NEW DELHI: After finishing work for the day as the Air Force commander for the Western region, Air Marshal SB Deo turns to his lab at home where he puts together components for smart bombs and missiles.

Drawing inspiration from Dr Abdul Kalam, Deo has designed a glide bomb, a cruise missile and an antishipping missile. "Make in India is achievable, one just has to stop talking and get to work,"

While Deo modestly quotes this to just be a hobby, his glide bomb, named Waghnag, has already undergone ground adaptation trial and is in the last stage of launch trial.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 18 Nov 2015 09:37

^^ what is "waghnag"? is it a different pronunciation of what Sivaji used against Shaista Khan?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Nov 2015 11:09

"Waghnag" seems to be a typo.... actually it should be "Waghnakh". Wagh - Tiger, Nakh- Claws

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 18 Nov 2015 11:20

Waghnakh- Tiger claws, the weapon used by Shivaji on that jihadist. Pretty cool article, it's amusing to read the IAF commander himself is taking such initiative

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Nov 2015 11:25

I could not locate any other post about the weapon and hence am posting this livefist article from September 2015

IAF To Flight-Test 'In-House' Stand-Off Glide Weapon This Month

The name, i presume is entirely allegorical

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Nov 2015 13:18

Kakkaji wrote:After finishing day's work, Air Marshal SB Deo puts together components for smart bombs, missiles at home lab

NEW DELHI: After finishing work for the day as the Air Force commander for the Western region, Air Marshal SB Deo turns to his lab at home where he puts together components for smart bombs and missiles.

Drawing inspiration from Dr Abdul Kalam, Deo has designed a glide bomb, a cruise missile and an antishipping missile. "Make in India is achievable, one just has to stop talking and get to work,"

While Deo modestly quotes this to just be a hobby, his glide bomb, named Waghnag, has already undergone ground adaptation trial and is in the last stage of launch trial.

The article makes it sound simple, but the reality is it takes a lot of resources to get it from design/prototype to flight-tested to production and induction. One would need to put the design through CFDs and wind-tunnels to understand the aerodynamics and separation from host aircraft. Many iterations would need to follow before some optimal refinement is achieved. Integration of avoinics/sensors need to be built and packed-in. Then get it integrated with host aircraft and flight tested in various profiles. Further corrections need to occur. It is entirely possible user may make changes to its original requirements. Those new features need to be added. Once that is cleared, production can begin but even here there could be issues with certain elements of design like not being suitable for mass fabrication. Finally, induction where further issues could crop up and need to be rectified.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Nov 2015 21:11

http://trak.in/tags/business/2015/11/17 ... ce-sector/
Night-Vision Startup From India Cracks The Defence Sector; Customers Include Indian & U.S. Defense Depts

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 19 Nov 2015 00:23

Manish_P wrote:I could not locate any other post about the weapon and hence am posting this livefist article from September 2015
IAF To Flight-Test 'In-House' Stand-Off Glide Weapon This Month
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-O_Y_OZ7oyo0/VhaRxbGqLsI/AAAAAAAAY-w/1o0tNOz1v8I/s1600/wagnakh.JPG
The name, i presume is entirely allegorical

No, its name of a claw weapon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagh_naka
Shivaji Maharaj had used it to slay Afzal Khan at Pratapgad fort.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Nov 2015 10:07

@Pralay

Am aware of the historical use of the Wagh Nakh.. a close-in, hand-to-hand melee weapon used as a last resort (or a stealthy first strike

). I was just wondering about how the name was thought for a ranged Air to Ground weapon.. except as allegory. Anyway that is not important.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Nov 2015 10:27

Manish_P wrote:@Pralay

Am aware of the historical use of the Wagh Nakh.. a close-in, hand-to-hand melee weapon used as a last resort (or a stealthy first strike ). I was just wondering about how the name was thought for a ranged Air to Ground weapon.. except as allegory. Anyway that is not important.

True. Not important but yes I agree it is allegorical - perhaps as a weapon that stealthily emerges to kill

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Nov 2015 12:51

SaiK wrote:http://trak.in/tags/business/2015/11/17 ... ce-sector/
Night-Vision Startup From India Cracks The Defence Sector; Customers Include Indian & U.S. Defense Depts

Do you guess who does the manufacturing?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 Nov 2015 12:59

Have a whine to make.

We are building a 'big rack' for some 'little boats', and another leading pvt sector electronics company supply an LRU in it. Went to factory acceptance for this piece, and the darn thing promptly failed some basic stuff. They guys haven't done basic verification/validation process on the product. 'sab chalega' seems to be the attitude.

And these guys claim to make lot of gizmos for various birds, arrows and fishes. After starting working in this area, my confidence level on the indigenous programs is dropping by the day.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Nov 2015 21:37

Do the have Acceptance test and workmanship type testing? What about qualification testing? 1 in 500 environments.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Nov 2015 21:51

pralay, I guess the stealth and hard target capability with dual guidance all make it a buried target killer. Looks like a answers a real need unlike other projects. Its in-house IAF development and essentially takes out command centers just as the Shivaji took out Afzal Khan. Its not a bolt on kit but a weapon using HSLD as warhead? ARDE had penetration studies tender for HSLD for concrete targets with Griffin kit. So all coming together.

However we need to praise the initiative of Air Marshal S.B. Deo and IAF for pushing for own concept weapons and DRDO for assisting. this synergy is what we need.

Looks all are to meet very valid requirements especially Western Air Command faces.

Its now November have they been tested?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Nov 2015 22:01

Dileep wrote:ave a whine to make.

We are building a 'big rack' for some 'little boats', and another leading pvt sector electronics company supply an LRU in it. Went to factory acceptance for this piece, and the darn thing promptly failed some basic stuff. They guys haven't done basic verification/validation process on the product. 'sab chalega' seems to be the attitude.

And these guys claim to make lot of gizmos for various birds, arrows and fishes. After starting working in this area, my confidence level on the indigenous programs is dropping by the day.

The same issue exists worldwide and which is why in India we have the extended development trials, user trials, confirmation trials and post production validation trials. So the issues get sorted and fixed, in an admittedly more extended fashion than should have ideally been the case.

But at the end of the day, our indigenous stuff works because of the above.

In contrast the imported stuff is, which BTW follows the same issues as you detailed above, but then is supplied to India and fails in extended deployment, then we have no option but to see if there is any way to get the manufacturer to fix things, but we can't if the legal agreement had flaws.

The amount of crap we have imported under 10x the price and which has lain rotting in India because it doesn't work is mind boggling. Whereas the same indian program may end up failing trials because of some Indian or imported vendor or a mistake causing issues but the trials keep occurring till that one issue is fixed. We have seen that with multiple programs - Agni, Arjun, etc. One SAM system IIRC went through some 60 test fires till every issue bar one was resolved. In those 60 test fires, every component is tested one way or the other.

In imports our user trials occur under scripted, time constrained conditions and we end up depending a lot on our trust with whichever vendor we procured from.
T-90, Smerch, Vijayanta - all cases in point.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Nov 2015 22:05

ramana wrote:Do the have Acceptance test and workmanship type testing? What about qualification testing? 1 in 500 environments.

Currently our process is developmental trials --> user evaluation trials --> developmental trials --->user trials ----> production ---> validation trials.

So, many touchpoints for any vendors lacunae to get discovered and fixed.

On average our trials take a significant amount of time. IMHO that can be sped up provided more resources are put in place (faster analysis of what went wron) but # of trials and complexity is important to ensure products are reliable.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Nov 2015 22:17

BTW Agni test details & how test firings, reliability etc were determined. Page 83. Of course this is dynamic - new designs, more LRUs and complexity, but there is a process in place. Folks may recall some Agnis having issues with validation trials. Those were detected, steps put in place and so it goes..

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=UPx ... ty&f=false

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 20 Nov 2015 00:01

If Unit testing is not done properly, many defects will still be caught in system, integration and user acceptance testing but that is not the most efficient ways of doing things.

With 85 employees worldwide, Tonbo does not appear to be much backward integrated company. Hopefully not sourced from China. The name appears quasi-chinese though.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Nov 2015 02:30

Its definitely not efficient but things do get caught and resolved.

Tonbo's core IP is basically design, test & software fusion + image processing. They would be importing their FPAs, CCDs & other components from worldwide suppliers. FPAs and CCDs - preferred sources for most defence firms are Israel/France & Japan respectively.