Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 16 Dec 2009 10:49

Trade and investment flows between our two countries have evolved in a reasonable manner particularly over the last four to five years. However, the UK, which used to be India's largest trade partner in the EU is no longer so; its share in India's growing foreign trade has declined and insofar as investment flows are concerned, these are far below optimal. The composition of the UK's exports to India is also not quite reflective, nor appropriate, of the relations between a very fast growing large developing economy and an established developed economy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... he-UK.html

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 19 Dec 2009 00:29

Any UK-Stanis catch Spooks on bbc1 the other night?

For those who arent aware, Spooks is the BBC's premium, award winning action drama following the work of a group of MI5 Officers based at the service's Thames House headquarters.

Anyway, this week their storyline was about a group of Hindu extremists planning to bomb a mosque in London.

Here is an interesting blog atricle about the British media and their fear of tackling jihadi terrorism (as seen by the bbc's policy in their Drama Spooks where they have featured Green extremists, Russians, Americans and now Hindus but never Islamists)

An extract.....

For connoisseurs of the issue-avoiding thriller, however, nothing beats Spooks. The real MI5 deals with radical Islam almost to the exclusion of all other threats. The BBC’s fictional MI5 deals with every threat except radical Islam. I appreciate there are better ways to spend my time, but every week I am transfixed by the effort the corporation puts into steering clear of al-Qaeda. In 2005, when real Islamists were bombing London, Spooks seemed to be a truly contemporary drama. Alas, the terrorists it had plotting to destroy London weren’t the followers of Sayyid Qutb but anti-technology Greens, who, say what you will about them, are on the whole a peaceful lot. In 2006, an Islamist cell was once again threatening to commit a crime against humanity. Inevitably, the writers could not confront the existence of actual terrorists and the Islamists turned out to be Mossad agents in disguise. For the BBC, as for the European and Arab far-Right, all Islamist atrocities were the work of the international Jewish conspiracy, that manipulates its dupes like a puppet-master jerking his strings. In the opening episode of the current series, the Sacred Army of Righteous Vengeance staged a mock execution of Harry Pearce, the head of MI5’s Counter-Terrorism Department. But, initiates wondered, why would they want to kill him when the BBC has already made it clear that there are no Islamist terrorists for MI5 to counter? True to form, the Sacred Army of Righteous Vengeance turned out to be yet another front organisation attempting to besmirch the good name of al-Qaeda, this time run by Hindu extremists.

First the Greens, then the Jews, then the Hindus-baffled viewers will be expecting the English Quakers and Burmese Buddhists next. Maybe the BBC will get round to them, but as the eighth series of Spooks draws to its conclusion, we know that for the time being at least, the scriptwriters have identified the real enemy. Episode by episode, Harry and his team have learned about a conspiracy of awesome power. As with Bourne and Bond, it is a cabal that has established itself at the highest levels of Western intelligence services. Once again, the good guys must fight the real menace that comes from the enemy within.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/12/18/ ... r-targets/

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 19 Dec 2009 01:42

sunnyP wrote:Any UK-Stanis catch Spooks on bbc1 the other night?

For those who arent aware, Spooks is the BBC's premium, award winning action drama following the work of a group of MI5 Officers based at the service's Thames House headquarters.

Anyway, this week their storyline was about a group of Hindu extremists planning to bomb a mosque in London.

Here is an interesting blog atricle about the British media and their fear of tackling jihadi terrorism (as seen by the bbc's policy in their Drama Spooks where they have featured Green extremists, Russians, Americans and now Hindus but never Islamists)

An extract.....

did you catch the bit where the ISI head in UK lectures to the MI5 guy about how extremist views are taking hold in UK and 'society is being polarised' yada yada

bit ironic i thought lol

anyway, Peter 'Darth Vader' Mandelson is in India, visiting Bangalore and New Delhi, opening the IISc-UK lecture series...his speech

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 20 Dec 2009 06:36

Cases of Rampant Child Abuse in UK

Hundreds of British schoolgirls are facing the terrifying prospect of female genital mutilation (FGM) over the Christmas holidays as experts warn the practice continues to flourish across the country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 45731.html

---

An 18-month-old girl has been taken from a police station in the UK.

After her mother was arrested for immigration offences on Thursday, baby Audrey Kessie Nyanor was left in the care of officers at Walworth, in the south-east of London.

http://www.calcuttanews.net/story/579551

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Dec 2009 12:12

Police expect Mumbai-style terror attack on City of London

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Dec 2009 13:13

after 26/11 a ex-SAS type said that no city/police in the world could react quickly enough to control and contain the early damage of such a attack if it occurs.

UK has so many serpents and cells in the hedgerow its not funny at all. we have a unique confluence of north african, mid-eastern, chechen and pakistani jihadi elements
in the UK.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Dec 2009 13:44

UK has so many serpents and cells in the hedgerow its not funny at all. we have a unique confluence of north african, mid-eastern, chechen and pakistani jihadi elements in the UK.

And all the above enjoying official patronage.

Maybe there's some truth to the plea that the UK-stan establishment really wants to change spots and dump these soured bets from the past (long shot, I know) but find that they're riding the proverbial tiger.

Dismounting (i.e. any hint of withdrawal of official support to such malcontents used currently against countries like India) can cause a backlash on londonistan streets itself. Much like what the TSPA is finding out when it tried dismounting the tiger just for show for unkil's benefit.

Jai Ho indeed.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 20 Dec 2009 19:39

Has the US never done anything to harm indian interests or civilians? Is UK the only culprit in this jehadi war? Wonder when the US will stop allowing ISI to use terrorism freely against India.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Dec 2009 20:29

^^Why ask questions when one already knows 'em answers, eh? To my knowledge nobody ever claimed unkil is doodh ka dhula.

FWIW, the long view is that the source, the root, the seed of the Anglosaxonian strategy to harness and use political (i.e. radical) islam for geopolitical ends, divide and rule games amongst tactical foes (such as the catholic powers in Southern Europe, the Orthodox Church, The Soviet forces and now finally the Yindu masses) was conceived, midwifed, birthed, nurtured, raised and perfected in Whitehall.

There is some hope the khanate will move away from the path of feeding TSP terror once the likely costs exceed potential benefits. No such hope, scope or dope with Uk-stan, IMHO. Like the packees, the UK-stani disdain for Yindu Yindia is too ingrained to bear revision or reason. JMTs of course. I keep looking for hopeful signs the UK-stanis have changed their spots (or stripes?) and will no longer nurture all manner of terrorists, criminals, mafiosi and drugrunners wanted in India as assets against Yindia. No such luck, thus far at least.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Dec 2009 00:17

^^ I just got a little irritated, because some of you are being a little unfair on the UK. I am in no way defending them for harboring terrorists. But I don't see the same level of hatred from the same members for the US(perhaps its because most of you are living or have lived in the US), which is doing things just as bad or maybe worse than the UK. Maybe the US has been just as overt, in their protection of Paki's.

Sure, whitehall may have perfected divide and rule, helped create pak. But lets not forget that the US has helped support anti indian terrorists through their policies/friendship with KSA/TSP, the US continues to provide aid to TSP which contributes towards the murder of innocent Indian civilians. I don't need to preach. Lets both agree that neither UK or the US is good and if we are angry at UK-stan, we need to be equally angry at the US.

Hariji, both UK and the US are doing it to maintain supremacy/world power etc.

JMT's. Correct me if i am wrong.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Dec 2009 00:53

The colonial history is a major reason why perceptions about the UK suffer. I have seen perfectly sane Indians get all riled up after visiting the museums in London. That both the US and UK may have worked against Indian interests in the recent past will do little to convince these people to see the US in the same light as the UK.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Dec 2009 01:46

shyamd wrote:^^ I just got a little irritated, because some of you are being a little unfair on the UK. I am in no way defending them for harboring terrorists. But I don't see the same level of hatred from the same members for the US(perhaps its because most of you are living or have lived in the US), which is doing things just as bad or maybe worse than the UK. Maybe the US has been just as overt, in their protection of Paki's.

Sure, whitehall may have perfected divide and rule, helped create pak. But lets not forget that the US has helped support anti indian terrorists through their policies/friendship with KSA/TSP, the US continues to provide aid to TSP which contributes towards the murder of innocent Indian civilians. I don't need to preach. Lets both agree that neither UK or the US is good and if we are angry at UK-stan, we need to be equally angry at the US.

Hariji, both UK and the US are doing it to maintain supremacy/world power etc.

JMT's. Correct me if i am wrong.

If you watch Afpak and Paki threads, you will see that their policies are condemned as much as UKs. I don't see any difference in the levels of criticizms( not hatred) between US and UK. Both have harmed Indian and Indians and continue to do so. There is no hatred, but criticisms only. And the fact that many Paki terrorists continue to live in broad daylight in UK and raise funds there for kashmir jihads, and UK's pussy-footing in limiting their activities gives some people sadistic pleasure when UK reaps what is sows from the same islamists. And here, the historic wrongs committed by UK and its failure to apologise for the same gives people more reason to remind UK of karmic effect

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 21 Dec 2009 02:14

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Dec 2009 02:30

Shyamd, I don't think Hari spares the US either when it comes to criticism

You're seeing more of his ire against the UK on this thread, being the Indo-UK thread, but IMHO he is quite fair and balanced about dishing it out in general.

My own view is that the problematic aspects of US policy towards India derive directly from the UK's own views towards the subcontinent (from Dulles onwards, American foreign policy establishments have lionized the British as masters of empire-management, particularly in commonwealth regions, and have incorporated British prejudices... including "Paki Martial Race" etc. wholesale). The UK for its own part, sees itself fading in relevance as a primary world power, and seeks to exercise its global influence vicariously by trying to groom the policies of the US as its imperial successor. Hence, the relentless UK efforts to get the US to support Pakistan, accommodate the Taliban, etc. etc.

Among US policymakers, powerful groups influenced by such figures as Madeleine Allbright and Zbignew Brzezinski base their entire worldview on British presumptions. However, you do have periods when alternative opinions (such as those held by the neo-conservative "Vulcans") predominate in policymaking. Today, unfortunately for India, the Anglophiles seem to have the upper hand in Washington.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Dec 2009 04:25

UK presses wary India for N-deal

The United Kingdom is pressing India to sign a civilian nuclear cooperation agreement quickly but New Delhi is holding out, seeking modifications in the agreement to cover its stand on non-proliferation.

...
In a letter to the Ministry of External Affairs, British High Commissioner Richard Stagg said Mandelson personally asked him to convey “deep disappointment” over the delay, a senior official told HT.

But India is not ready to sign yet. “We need greater clarity on the text of the agreement,” the source said.

It is learnt that New Delhi needs more clarity about parts of the agreement text dealing with India’s non-proliferation commitments in terms of making the country’s position of not subscribing to any “flawed, discriminatory” international regimes in the “less-than-four-page” agreement.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Dec 2009 05:08

My post wasn't directed specifically at Hari at all, apologies if it came out that way. Maybe I have missed some harsh criticisms of the US. It just seems that the criticisms of the UK is more colourful(harsher) compared to the US. And certain members are quiet when the US has done something extremely harmful to Indian interest (certain members just pass it off as "aah...the US is only acting in its own interests"), but when its the UK, they come out in full flow with all sorts of comments. Again I am not defending any of the UK's past acts, I just dislike the fact that certain members make out the UK is a hub full of jihadi's and the US has absolutly no problems with extremists.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 21 Dec 2009 05:15

One of my friends who work in the middle-east told me that there is an opinion among the people there that US may be powerful, but they are like cowboys and don't understand the world. It is the British who make Americans do different unpopular things in the world.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 21 Dec 2009 09:22

Just to clarify where I am coming from vis-a-vis UK-stan:

I consider myself fairly well-read (at least w.r.t. the avg Yindian) but till a few yrs ago had this impression of UK-stan as essentially a 'good; influence on India and Indians. Deeper, more sober reading of reality that has been ruthlessly suppressed from easy access in the English language even in India (and BRF is one of the few avenues where such access and contact with klnowledgeables was found) opened my eyes to UK-stan's true colors.

The more I read and came to know the more horrified I became. The systematic mass-plunder and denudation of our wealth and surplus tat the brits managed in 150 yrs rivalled that of the islamic invaders in the preceding 600.

I think Sanjay Choudhary said it best (paraphrasing) - I am unable to understand the depth of hatred the Brits have had for a country and a culture that has never (and even today does not) meant them any ill-will or harm.

And it didn't stop in 1947. Seems the UK-stani establishment has continued to manouver to downsize India via open-ended invitation, support and shelter to every manner of anti-Indian found anywhere on the planet, prop up TSP terror overtly and covertly (see their role in J&K in '47-48), and otherwise use their infamous 'influence' and 'good offices' to screw India over at almost every turn.

The shocking thing is the total lack of awareness amongst otherwise well-read and well-meaning Indians re Brit duplicity, perfidity and disguised enmity against India. Which is why, am aghast at any display of misplaced goodwill towards UK-stan by ordinary Indians of any shade.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 21 Dec 2009 09:29

Repeat after me:
"India is the patient, pakistan is just the syndrome, but china is the disease, us is the quack, and uk is the quack from yesterday's intervention. The end of the influence of the triad that matters, and the syndrome will take care of itself..."

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 21 Dec 2009 09:46

^^ You mean, TSP is the symptom rather than syndrome? Well, maybe it is.

To me, it seems more like TSP is a parasitic pathogen that was conceived, designed and put together in the UK-stani bioweapons lab.

It was then released into India's bloodstream (neighborhood) and nurtured with additional doses of nutrients first by UK-stan and then by an unwitting khanate right till the Kennedy era. After that, the khans took over the task of keepoing the pathogen stock alive and raising its toxicity.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Dec 2009 10:03

I just dislike the fact that certain members make out the UK is a hub full of jihadi's

UK is the global hub /clearing house of world wide terror, particularly for the anti India kind. UK stan's support went the whole spectrum, right from the Naga/Phizo/North Eastern kind to the Khalistani kind to the Jihadi kind. If there is one consistent thread in all this, it is UK's support for anti India terrorists.

The other consistent thread has been co-opting Indian ,ok to be specific, New Delhi Elites who have a congenitally conditioned Pavlovian response for all things Brit and yearning for " The Old Masters" via patronage networks and "mind conditioning" or as the Americans call it "Behavior Modification" or as said in Plain Hindi is called "Ghoos".

Not for nothing do the Dilli Billis haul their sorry a@@es to the Oxbridge academia and to the "Sick Man of Europe" in general and after the "Mind Fu***ig" they receive there, think that they have "arrived" and come back thinking all Haw Haw. Consider. Outside of Dilli and Bengal and specifically Kolkata (hope I got the spelling right) (another washed up place and basket case that is still mentally enslaved by Brits and all things Brit.. consider Nirad C Chaudri and folks like Amartya Sen and their ilk), no one gives a rat's ar*e about Uk Stan and Oxbridge and people simply couldn't care less.. Consider how different Dilli is. Last time I spoke with my Dilli folks, they came back and said that one of my cousin's daughter after going to school in undergrad in Dilli is going to Oxford for her Masters !. I merely yawned..

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Dec 2009 11:01

vina wrote: UK is the global hub /clearing house of world wide terror, particularly for the anti India kind. UK stan's support went the whole spectrum, right from the Naga/Phizo/North Eastern kind to the Khalistani kind to the Jihadi kind. If there is one consistent thread in all this, it is UK's support for anti India terrorists.

Fully concur with your views but how is it different from US and Canada entente in 1980s regarding Khalistanis (Kanishka bombing anyone?), 1990s "concerns" for Cashmere or the overlooking of China-Pak nuke alliance?

The other consistent thread has been co-opting Indian ,ok to be specific, New Delhi Elites who have a congenitally conditioned Pavlovian response for all things Brit and yearning for " The Old Masters" via patronage networks and "mind conditioning" or as the Americans call it "Behavior Modification" or as said in Plain Hindi is called "Ghoos".

Again theoretically the point is excellent but then is it different from N Murthy pleasing his American guests by not having the words played of our National Anthem? A nation of "Master-Slave" mentality will behave the same way no matter who the masters are? I do not support supplanting of British masters with American masters whereby all things American are covered in benign halo just because a vast majority of Indians aspire for US citizenship or earn their livelihood from US related enterprises.

Outside of Dilli and Bengal and specifically Kolkata (hope I got the spelling right) (another washed up place and basket case that is still mentally enslaved by Brits and all things Brit.. consider Nirad C Chaudri and folks like Amartya Sen and their ilk), no one gives a rat's ar*e about Uk Stan and Oxbridge and people simply couldn't care less.. Consider how different Dilli is. Last time I spoke with my Dilli folks, they came back and said that one of my cousin's daughter after going to school in undergrad in Dilli is going to Oxford for her Masters !. I merely yawned..

Vina saar grant it Oxbridge any day beats hollow all other universities of the world except two or three American ones. Not taking into account the colonial hangover these institutions are excellent based upon sheer academics. And as far as the yawn goes even I do it for MITs, IITs, IIMs, Princetons and Harvards of the world. Forget the Dilli billis the job market for you cousin's daughter will say it all.... yawns or no yawns.
Britain has been as good or as bad as other colonial powers (including the USA) after independence. As far as their pre-independence atrocities go, yes we will ensure justice for those.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 21 Dec 2009 11:08

munna-ji, I guess what seems to get many Rakshaks' goat (mine as well) is that, UKstan constantly tries and punches well above its own weight.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Dec 2009 11:22

pgbhat wrote:munna-ji, I guess what seems to get many Rakshaks' goat (mine as well) is that, UKstan constantly tries and punches well above its own weight.

Same here I fully concur with Vina, you and other rakshaks too! My only point let us not punch the low lying target or pluck the low hanging fruit. In interest of being true to the country and our people we need to be equally harsh in our criticism against the big daddy (USA) which has been repeatedly playing funny games with us. UK stan will be paid back in full but at the same time let us not mistake the jeep for a tank.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Dec 2009 11:29

Oxbridge any day beats hollow all other universities of the world except two or three American ones. Not taking into account the colonial hangover these institutions are excellent based upon sheer academics

Y'r kidding me!. Oxbridge cant hold a candle to many of the specific programs in Engg or Medicine to even some of the 2nd rung schools in the US.

The Oxbridge reputation and cachet is overblown and it is running on empty based on old glories. The Oxbridge cachet might be great in UK stan and possibly in Dilli and Kolkata and possibly parts of Asia (like Singapore and Hong Kong ) and the Gulf and Australia , places which are not exactly the brightest sparks historically and currently in terms of academic achievements and research (despite all the noise and money thrown at it from those parts).

As for India, the Oxbridge catchet might be great in Dilli and Kolkata , but is worth diddly squat outside.

munna · Post by **munna** » 21 Dec 2009 11:46

vina wrote:Y'r kidding me!. Oxbridge cant hold a candle to many of the specific programs in Engg or Medicine to even some of the 2nd rung schools in the US.

The Oxbridge reputation and cachet is overblown and it is running on empty based on old glories. The Oxbridge cachet might be great in UK stan and possibly in Dilli and Kolkata and possibly parts of Asia (like Singapore and Hong Kong ) and the Gulf and Australia , places which are not exactly the brightest sparks historically and currently in terms of academic achievements and research (despite all the noise and money thrown at it from those parts).

As for India, the Oxbridge catchet might be great in Dilli and Kolkata , but is worth diddly squat outside.

Nope I am not kidding Oxbridge is an excellent place for academics in Pure sciences, Maths, Law, Economics (LSE) and liberal arts. These institutes continue to produce nobel laureates and nurture excellent institutes like Cavendish laboratories. Guess where is this year's Chemistry Nobel Laureate (Dr Ramakrishnan) of Indian origin working? Cambridge. Large universities don't have uniform quality for all faculties and that is true for both US and UK universities cherry picking departments can even make Chinese universities seem world class but that is hardly the case.
The larger point here is that these institutions are very strong in global rankings and academic quality and no matter our personal biases they command respect anywhere and everywhere in the world (barring places with ideological predilection to all things yumreekan).

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Dec 2009 11:48

The pure sciences Nobels by Oxbridge are remarkable for a country Britain's size and economy. In fact they are remarkable by any measure.

vina · Post by **vina** » 21 Dec 2009 12:13

The pure sciences Nobels by Oxbridge are remarkable for a country Britain's size and economy. In fact they are remarkable by any measure

I think you are confused between Israel and UK Stan. After 1960, what you said applies to Israel and not UK!.

Sure. There might be old fuddy duddies who are tenured and decked out as "wallflowers" in Oxbridge. But really how many of them did their best work (even the No Bell guys for the work for which they got they Nobels) for which they are best know for (btw that is true for ALL univs, including the top ones in Massa) at the Univ they are currently in ?

In Science and Math, UK Stan is no longer the top dog by a long shot it wasn't the case even before WWII (it was continental Europe, esp Germany) and after WWII it is US and Continental Europe with UK Stan winning a few Nobels here and there because of institutional "inertia" and "imports".

Take a word of advice. Don't waste your time by going to Oxbridge if you are young and starting out in Science/Math/Engg. Oxbridge is only for Dilli Billis and Kolkata's still mentally enslaved Bhadralok to go to for degrees in social "sciences" and "littrachaw" and "English" and fancy stuff and come back to JNU and Dilli School of E-Con-O-Mix kind of places. For anything else, it has zero cachet.

Oh.. I forgot , but how can I really ?. Oxbridge and UkStan in general is the natural place for RAPE Pakis. The preferred destination of the Lawerence/Mayo/Sanowar/Doon School and the equivalent Paki RAPE class. A really toxic combo and social class, best avoided IMHO.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Dec 2009 22:24

I think you are confused between Israel and UK Stan.

A more useful comparator would be Germany or Japan or even China. Britain beats them to pulp with its cache of Science nobels.

Sure. There might be old fuddy duddies who are tenured and decked out as "wallflowers" in Oxbridge. But really how many of them did their best work (even the No Bell guys for the work for which they got they Nobels) for which they are best know for (btw that is true for ALL univs, including the top ones in Massa) at the Univ they are currently in ?

This information is readily available on the Net, Oxbridge is no MIT or Texas A&M.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 21 Dec 2009 22:37

Police expect "Mumbai Style" terror attack on London

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 962867.ece

Scotland Yard has warned businesses in London to expect a Mumbai-style attack on the capital.

In a briefing in the City of London 12 days ago, a senior detective from SO15, the Metropolitan police counter-terrorism command, said: “Mumbai is coming to London.”

The detective said companies should anticipate a shooting and hostage-taking raid “involving a small number of gunmen with handguns and improvised explosive devices”.

The warning — the bluntest issued by police — has underlined an assessment that a terrorist cell may be preparing an attack on London early next year.

In Mumbai, many victims were killed in the first half hour of the attack. The Met is concerned that it will be much longer before the SAS, which has traditionally dealt with terrorist sieges in London, would arrive from its base at Regent’s Park barracks.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Dec 2009 23:08

vina wrote:
I just dislike the fact that certain members make out the UK is a hub full of jihadi's
UK is the global hub /clearing house of world wide terror, particularly for the anti India kind. UK stan's support went the whole spectrum, right from the Naga/Phizo/North Eastern kind to the Khalistani kind to the Jihadi kind. If there is one consistent thread in all this, it is UK's support for anti India terrorists.

Just proved exactly what I am saying about certain members being more sympathetic when US commits mistakes. And what? US hasn't done anything as bad? If I am not mistaken, didn't the US threaten to Nuke India and continue to fund/protect TSP??

Rest of your post, is just pure nonsense and hatred towards the UK. I don't have a problem with that, you are entitled to your opinion...

Oxbridge being lower order compared to uni's in the US is nonsense, I know many US hedge funds/IB's who recruit only from Oxbridge in the UK. I happen to know individuals from LSE and my university who went to the US for internships with US IB's in NYC...If they were soo booor how would that be possible. Hmm....must be another conspiracy. BTW, If a permanent resident of the UK was to go to Oxbridge he would pay £3000 or roughly $5000. How much do the US uni's charge??? Think $20k or more. Don't talk about scholarships, the UK has them too. Even with the small resources, Oxbridge is extremely strong and competitive.

----------------------
Hariji, I understand what you are saying. I don't deny that the UK has been hostile towards anti indian terrorists, latest being the veto of Lashkar chief going onto interpol or something of that sort? I still think that the UK is just acting to protect its interests(by making itself a home to assorted terrorists, it sought to protect itself, just like the ME nations and US(latest Praveen Swami article explains about how US allowed extremists to live in the US inorder to protect itself from attacks) and there is noo deep hatred of indians amongst the ruling class, although the mess ups in Iraq/Afg by the US and UK, will see to it that India will become a power to be reckoned with.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 21 Dec 2009 23:18

Gentlemen do we really need to debate who between US and UK is worse for Indian interests?

What is there to chose between them from Indian perspective?

They are good cop and bad cop as far as we are concerned, with changing caps to keep it really dynamic.

Surely we have better issue to be argumentative about.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 21 Dec 2009 23:21

shyamd wrote:Hariji, I understand what you are saying. I don't deny that the UK has been hostile towards anti indian terrorists, latest being the veto of Lashkar chief going onto interpol or something of that sort? I still think that the UK is just acting to protect its interests(by making itself a home to assorted terrorists, it sought to protect itself, just like the ME nations and US(latest Praveen Swami article explains about how US allowed extremists to live in the US inorder to protect itself from attacks) and there is noo deep hatred of indians amongst the ruling class, although the mess ups in Iraq/Afg by the US and UK, will see to it that India will become a power to be reckoned with.

Shyamd,

Maybe you meant "supporting" instead of "hostile"?

Everybody understands that UK (or US or Pakistan) do whatever they do because they think its best in their interests. How does that understanding hinder doing what is best in your interests (whether its heaping praise or dishing out crap)?

Your contention that one shouldn't say anything against "X" because "Y" is going scott-free (in your opinion). Instead of trying to defend "X" or fighting over "X"'s record, if you have something to say about "Y", then just give your piece of mind in "Y";s thread, may I add with a vengenence. Problem solved.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 21 Dec 2009 23:22

London warned of 26/11 rerun

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Dec 2009 23:40

a_kumar, apologies, I meant supporting.

My point was that certain members are less harsh towards the US on this forum, I mean some don't even comment when the US does something against Indian interests, it just irritates me. I get your point though, maybe I should be a bit more vocal on the US thread

. I think the US is facing the same issues of extremism in their land (pretty much evident by the large numbers of arrests) as much as the UK. Anyway, I hope my point was made. Back to other issues.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Dec 2009 00:02

i think sarila offers an interesting analysis of the bad and good of britain's india/pakistan partition policy and the US attitude. also, i think some members give the UK far more credit in terms of CURRENT chankyan-ness than warranted. for several decades the strategic focus has shifted to europe and the atlantic. there are NO illusions about world power, generations of civil servants and politicians have grown up worrying about brussels and cheese regulations rather than the north west frontier or battle ships.

there is little point in wasting energy in rona dhona about the past (Note: we must all be extremely aware of the past and what happened - and most of it is bad for us) whilst the enemies of today strike us at will. the anglo-saxons have always thought indians to be emotional and unrealistic, this dhaga reflects that too.

as for vina-ji and his anti-oxbridge tirade, don't worry thats a regular recurring feature of BRF

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Dec 2009 09:50

Apologia wearing the mask of sweet reasonableness resurfaces. Not unexpectedly, perhaps.

Specifically, the sweet reasonableness does a jhalak dikhala ja in appropriate qualifiers such as:

Note: we must all be extremely aware of the past and what happened - and most of it is bad for us

followed immediately by hallowed advice along the lines of:

there is little point in wasting energy in rona dhona about the past...whilst the enemies of today strike us at will

that on closer examination appears to be classic bait and switch.

Why? Because the basic premise, the thrust behind the apologia appears to be that the above two quoted portions are unrelated. The premise is flat out *wrong*. All strictly IMHO, of course.

It is precisely the inability (refusal?) of Indian to learn from past holocausts and atrocities inflicted on Indians by the likes of UK-stan that allows current enemies 'to strike at will'.

What does that show to Potential well-heeled hyenas out there snapping at our heels today?

The current enemies (not too different from those that in the past have looted us) have learnt from our history what our mainstream, unduly influenced by UK-stanism, is yet to learn, it appears. That India and Indians can be fooled by flattery, fakes, psy-ops and FUD into forgiving, even forgetting inhuman past horrors inflicted on a hapless Indian populace so systematically and deliberately as to make it a slow motion holocaust in our starvation affected fertile regions.

That Indians can be manipulated so much as to never even demand formal expressions of regret (much less reparations) from the erstwhile colonial overlord. In fact the apologia appears to count precisely on such traits in addition to what one commentator called

the inexplicable Indian desire to appear reasonable to foreigners

to get away (again) as reasonable onlee.

That India never administered a figurative jhapad to UK-stani pretensions of friendliness, well-meaning 'aid' and influence in Delhi after 1947 relates directly to our present-day security challenges on multiple fronts.

RD in another thread lamented how Indians in one region are unable to sympathize as Indians in another when foreign terror strikes points to the disappearance of our own narrative from national discourse. And the first step to truth and reconciliation is that truth prevail - that is, UK-stani establishment evil be recognised for the evil it is and repudiated thoroughly at all levels of governance, our textbooks and civil society. Don't get me wrong - English today is just another Indian language, keep it. Throw out the reverence and deference for everything else Bshitish.

That UK-stan has apologized both to PRC and to the US for wars and atrocities in the 19th century but has never done so to India speaks for itself. That UK-stan sold out Tibet to PRC quietly but is yet to come down firmly in India's favor on the J&K issue also speaks for itself. It is important to learn from PRC the art of being sensitive and prickly about past colonial atrocities. It is important to occasionally deliver tight jhapads to the likes of Miliboy who came down here to lecture us on Kashmir from Mumbai after 26/11. And so on.

for several decades the strategic focus has shifted to europe and the atlantic. there are NO illusions about world power, generations of civil servants and politicians have grown up worrying about brussels and cheese regulations rather than the north west frontier or battle ships.

How sweet and reasonable, again. And we Yindians shuld be thankful for such small mercies, am sure. Jai Ho, of course.

vina · Post by **vina** » 22 Dec 2009 10:00

That India and Indians can be fooled by flattery, fakes, psy-ops and FUD into forgiving, even forgetting

Ah. You missed out OVERLOOKING after the forgiving and forgetting bit. That is the part the Bhike huey Dilli Billis and all the "soft influence" via LSE/DSE/Oxbridge track comes from .

There is an article in today's Business Standard by Subramaniam Swamy as a Eulogy/ Remembrence of Paul Samuelson and he really lays out some of the low politics of the "left persuasion" especially by the DSE crowd out in detail. Subramaniam Swamy is /was a Maverick. But he is the ONLY intellectually honest person I have seen come out of the entire Indian Statistical Institute Calcutta , who had the integrity to call the emperor's naked clothes at that time. Consider that with the rest of the Oxbridge Dilli Billi crowd who sold out their souls and integrity and created a whole construct of false gods and make believe alternate world and condemned 2 generations of Indians to poverty all in the name of "It is good for you and we know better than you". The Oxbridge crowd (along with the JNU/DSE/ISI crowd) get no respect from me because they were less scholars and more idealogues.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Dec 2009 10:52

Lalmohan wrote: the anglo-saxons have always thought indians to be emotional and unrealistic, this dhaga reflects that too.

I agree and if I were to make another one for the fora people with very 'strong' likes/dislikes .

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Dec 2009 13:11

hari - your interpretation of my statements are extreme. and wrong.