Indian Education System

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 29 Aug 2011 21:20

Unlike in India, the shortage of medical personnel in the US was created on purpose to protect salaries. Things like the extra 4 years before entering medical school are seen as an effective deterrent to a flood of foreign graduates entering the workforce (as in tech), so its a small price to pay in that worldview. But things might be due for a change soon with increasing liabilities on account of medicare and Obamacare that will need attention to competitiveness and cost control.

In India, the workload is enormous and earning potential high because a) the government under invests in healthcare, particularly training specialists and b) consumer protections aren't as well evolved.

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 29 Aug 2011 21:55

gakakkad wrote:Basic medical degree(ug)= 4-7 years . 4 years in the US .(labelled as MD) 5.5 years in India/UK (4.5 years MBBS + 1 year internship ) 7 years in Germany. US is the only that awards the degree without any sort of internship. In other countries(including India,Australia) you can practice after the basic medical degree. The practice is called general/family practice .Of course this is a limited practise where you treat basic ailments. A general practitioner usually can't operate. In US people intending to do general/family practice need to do a special PG . Everywhere in the world (us and India included) specialists need further post grad training.

The medical degree in the UK is 5 years long in most medical schools, it's 6 years in three medical schools. However, all medical schools allow some of their students to take a year out of medicine and do a BSc (known as intercalation). Essentially, it's a 6 year degree for a lot of medical students (the 6 year degrees in those three medical schools include the intercalating year). For those who don't intercalate, it's still a 5 year course.
Once graduated, junior doctors train for two years as Foundation Doctors. This is where they rotate in several specialties in year 1, and then build on that in year 2 or experience even more specialties.
To become a General Practitioner, you have to train for a further 3 years after your Foundation Years (total 5 years after graduation). For someone starting the degree at the age of 18, you can be a GP by the age of ~28.
For surgery and hospital specialties, training time after Foundation Years can vary between 8-10 years. This is all assuming that the candidate passes the relevant exams, and there are training posts available.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Aug 2011 22:15

vera_k wrote:Unlike in India, the shortage of medical personnel in the US was created on purpose to protect salaries. Things like the extra 4 years before entering medical school are seen as an effective deterrent to a flood of foreign graduates entering the workforce (as in tech), so its a small price to pay in that worldview. But things might be due for a change soon with increasing liabilities on account of medicare and Obamacare that will need attention to competitiveness and cost control.

In India, the workload is enormous and earning potential high because a) the government under invests in healthcare, particularly training specialists and b) consumer protections aren't as well evolved.

Actually the present American system ensures that 6000+ foreign grads enter US every year. US has more PG residency positions than UG positions.. And to practice in US you need a PG from US . UG from elsewhere is acceptable .

Actually there is no shortage of personnel . The pathetic practice style and excessively reimbursing some specialities over others creates it.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Aug 2011 22:23

To become a General Practitioner, you have to train for a further 3 years after your Foundation Years (total 5 years after graduation)

Is this 3 year thing equivalent to a residency? Whats the curriculum like? The posting for the GP are out patient based only or hospital based? I was under the impression that the 3 year training for GP is more like supervised practice under the NHS. Do surgeons still lose the Dr. designation these days ? That was one peculiarity of England.

For surgery and hospital specialties, training time after Foundation Years can vary between 8-10 years. This is all assuming that the candidate passes the relevant exams, and there are training posts available.

8-10 years for each and every branch? I mean what would a skin guy or an anesthesia guy do in an 8 years residency training?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 29 Aug 2011 23:01

gakakkad wrote:Actually the present American system ensures that 6000+ foreign grads enter US every year. US has more PG residency positions than UG positions.. And to practice in US you need a PG from US . UG from elsewhere is acceptable .

Actually there is no shortage of personnel . The pathetic practice style and excessively reimbursing some specialities over others creates it.

That's simply the establishment line. But when it takes 3 days to get an appointment for a cold or a month and a half for a pregnant woman to see a gynaec, you can be sure there's a shortage. Meanwhile, spending on healthcare as a percentage of GDP has doubled in just the last decade.

1992 - America's painful doctor shortage

Says the firm's chief executive, Joe Hawkins: ''The reality is that there's no such thing as an unemployed doctor in America. But the myth of too many doctors dies hard.'' One reason may be that doctors prefer not to acknowledge the extent to which an imbalance in demand and supply accounts, at least in part, for their high incomes. Between 1982 and 1992, spending on doctors' services, adjusted for inflation, jumped from $75.3 billion to an estimated $165.5 billion.

1996 - With doctor surplus, US is urged to cut residency training

The United States has a growing surfeit of doctors, primarily caused by an excess of foreign-trained physicians, and to control the problem the nation should quickly move to reduce residency programs for training new doctors, a panel of experts said today.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Aug 2011 23:10

That's simply the establishment line. But when it takes 3 days to get an appointment for a cold or a month and a half for a pregnant woman to see a gynaec, you can be sure there's a shortage. Meanwhile, spending on healthcare as a percentage of GDP has doubled in just the last decade.

That is not because of the shortage of personnel. That is because how medicine is practised. Even if you somehow double the number of docs (by no means an easy thing) the situation may not improve much. Docs spend too much time with useless documentation. And the insurers due to the preferred provider nonsense limit whom you can visit. Besides a host of other unnecessary restrictions. I know FP's who only work for 20 hours a week. There are good reasons why I predict healthcare as a cause of doom for the US . The most overpaid guys are the MBA's . The CEO of united healtcare makes millions.I have discussed the topic in depth in nukkad. Doc salaries account for 1 % of expenditure only. A large part of the remaining 99% goes to undeserving middlemen and massive vaults of the Pharma companies (which are about as evil as defence companies and black water combine). India has much less docs. Yet no one has trouble getting appointments.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 30 Aug 2011 01:32

But if doctors were easily available, there fees would decline to be in line with what the market could bear. And insurance would be unnecessary, except in catastrophic cases as people could afford to pay as they go. The point the first article made is very powerful - how many doctors are unemployed?

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 30 Aug 2011 02:37

Is this 3 year thing equivalent to a residency? Whats the curriculum like? The posting for the GP are out patient based only or hospital based? I was under the impression that the 3 year training for GP is more like supervised practice under the NHS. Do surgeons still lose the Dr. designation these days ? That was one peculiarity of England.

yeah, the 3 year training is the same as residency in the US. With regards to the curriculum, I don't have a lot of specifics saar (I'm still a medical student). The curriculum is set by the Royal College, and you can have a look through it here: GP Curriculum Statements. From what I know by talking to junior doctors, the GP training involves working in GP practices, where they are supervised by the senior GP. I remember talking to a Kashmiri lady training to be a GP, and she had to video some of her consultations as part of her assessment by the senior GP.
And yeah, surgeons still do call themselves Mr, instead of Dr, to recognise the fact that UK surgeons in the 19th century could only be awarded a diploma, and not a degree (unlike doctors).

8-10 years for each and every branch? I mean what would a skin guy or an anesthesia guy do in an 8 years residency training?

The specialties are divided into two types of training - "run-through" and "uncoupled". In run through, you have a certain number of training posts which you have to complete to become a Consultant. The progression to the next post happens if you meet the competency requirements (Royal College exams etc) and you don't have to apply again for the next post.
Uncoupled is where you have to undergo 2/3 years of training (Core Training) and then apply again, with other candidates, to the Specialty Training posts.
My understanding is that at each stage of the process, you have to demonstrate a certain level of competency, and then you move on to the next post, where you will learn new skills/consolidate. IMO, I guess it could be described as a checklist, where you tick off things you can do, until you become a Consultant

This diagram should summaise the training process:

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 30 Aug 2011 08:50

vera_k wrote:But if doctors were easily available, there fees would decline to be in line with what the market could bear. And insurance would be unnecessary, except in catastrophic cases as people could afford to pay as they go. The point the first article made is very powerful - how many doctors are unemployed?

Actually the unaffordable costs are not due to high fee's of Doc's . But due to high fees of hospitals and extremely expensive drugs due to huge margins. The drugs in US are 10-50 times more expensive than India and 3-4 times more expensive than Canada even. In fact more expensive than anywhere else. (pharma companies claim that it is to recover "r&d" costs , but thats BS ,they spent several times more in marketing and lobbying than research).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescripti ... ted_States

If an Angioplasty costs 20k dollars at a particular centre ,the doc probably only makes 500 out of it. If a bypass costs 5500 than the surgeon only makes a fraction out it. Costs are illustrative only . Actual costs may differ from centre to centre. Even if you make a docs slaves and make em work for free you ll only save 1%.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 31 Aug 2011 06:23

Research education in India should be related life realities. It means application related researches should also be encouraged and invested. All the industrial companies should be asked to relate themselves with a research institution or they themselves should be asked to start research departments in the universities.
Start-up research firms struggling for funds
http://www.livemint.com/2011/08/2922265 ... l?atype=tp

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 Sep 2011 04:15

FWIW: Another one of those top ten silly list:
Top 10 Best Engineering Universities in the World

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 06 Sep 2011 20:19

gakakkad wrote:Actually the unaffordable costs are not due to high fee's of Doc's . But due to high fees of hospitals and extremely expensive drugs due to huge margins. The drugs in US are 10-50 times more expensive than India and 3-4 times more expensive than Canada even. In fact more expensive than anywhere else. (pharma companies claim that it is to recover "r&d" costs , but thats BS ,they spent several times more in marketing and lobbying than research).

The drugs issue is valid, but if hospital margins are high enough, there would have been much more competition coming so that margins declined.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 10 Sep 2011 11:11

Ragging victim falls from 4th floor, dies of injuries at SMS Hospital
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 929247.cms

I hope Indian educational institutions become conscisous of such ragging activities and be very strong in preventing them.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 15 Sep 2011 19:40

IIT-JEE to be done away with, selection through 12th board.

This idiot Kapil Sibbal seems to be on a personal vendetta against IITs. Maybe it is revenge because he wasn't good enough to qualify for them.
http://newsthatmattersnot.com/2010/09/o ... union.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Sep 2011 23:59

I dont think thats true...people realize a fair normalization is impossible esp in a env where fractions of a percent have lot of candidates.

the new talk is of a common exam for the centrally run colleges like iit and nit, with a open invite to the state run colleges to come under this exam too.

so aieee would go away and this new exam whatever its called would be the defacto SAT.

I am all for a SAT type thing - institutions can become great by great students and teachers, not getting half-dead material who slogged for 2-3 yrs just to enter the gate

we need fresh troops, not jaded team india type ODI veterans of the Long March

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 16 Sep 2011 01:16

From Indigeneous Education In The 18Th Century :

Perhaps temple funds can be channeled to run Hindu trust schools.

About one third of the total revenue (from agriculture & sea ports) were according to ancient practice assigned for the requirements of the social & cultural infrastructure till the British overturned it all. The British increased the quantum of land revenue, made it payable twice a year at fixed timed (irrespective of weather conditions), had to be paid in cash not produce meaning the farmer had to sell his produce in the market to pay revenue exposing himself to the vagaries of market pricing. These moves towards centralization of revenue ensured that there was hardly any revenue to pay for social & cultural infrastructure resulting in its death.

The laws of British era perhaps still hold, where instead of British now Indians finance the Govt as if it is a world power already; and whatever is left goes to schemes in the name of the foren-bahurani's-parivaar.

Indeed are there any schools run by Ashrams/Hindu-trusts that have tax savings advantages on donations?

More on Sanskrit's decline after the British invasion; from Subject lessons: the Western education of colonial India, - it explains how study of Sanskrit changed from traditions/lifestyle to "criticality", "historical", "comparative", "philological" i.e. studying not as a Hindu onlee but as a forener onlee. Page 172 onwards. Though entire book is good read.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Sep 2011 20:43

Indian college launches ghostly studies
by Raja Murthy

A recent seminar on the supernatural in Mumbai didn't aim at debunking or hunting ghosts, rather it encouraged students to be more receptive to non-conventional issues. By better appreciating how belief in ghosts and other phenomena can expand the frontiers of spirituality and science, perhaps the living could develop a healthier perspective on life.

[...]

Personally, I have no problem with accepting that ghosts exist, even though I have not yet met one. Regular practice of metta bhavana results in feelings of compassion not fear, for djinns, demons and their cousins from the netherworld.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 23 Sep 2011 20:33

Former student of IIT–Madras becomes its director
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Che ... 477380.ece

Another EE Diro after the much outspoken Shri. PV Indiresan. For me, it is close to home. While personally, he is a very nice guy, I found his comm sys class anachronistic and highly boring, even if everyone else around me found it highly "interesting." The days when WLL and another Padma Shri cornered all the resources of ESB. WLL should have been short-form for What the heLL, but yea I digress. Thankfully, the new infusion in EE has meant things are not so south as those good ol' days. He will be in office for another 10 years or so if all is well, so that should mean nuff time to leave his imprint. And that means one Aero Prof who I know wont be Diro, which is sad.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 26 Sep 2011 19:29

Amartya Sen runs into a bunch of argumentative Indians...
India's grand university plans falter

Plans between India and other Asian countries to build an international university near the ruins of Nalanda University, a vast, ancient center of higher learning that flourished between the fifth and 12th century, have hit controversy, with academics tussling over its direction. While Nobel Laureate chief Amartya Sen insists on his vision, critics say he'll erode the school's Buddhist legacy.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 09 Oct 2011 22:27

WSJ story: (Some excerpts quoted below)
India’s Universities No Match for World’s Best

No Indian university made it in an annual list of the world’s top 200 universities.

High up in the survey, put together by the Times Higher Education magazine, were many of the much-lauded institutions– including Harvard, Stanford and Oxford.

To find your first and only Indian mention, you have to scroll way down.

The Indian Institute of Technology, Bombay, widely regarded as India’s most prestigious engineering and technology school, does appear in the ranking—but not in the top 200.

<snip>

The disappointing performance of Indian universities in this survey is the latest indication of something we already knew: that despite the country’s economic growth, its education system is lagging. As we already noted, although higher education institutes are churning out a growing number of university graduates, these colleges and universities are not producing enough people who are fit for employment, with companies often struggling to find new recruits.

Infosys Ltd.’s co-founder and chairman emeritus Narayana Murthy last week said the quality of education even in the illustrious Indian Institutes of Technology is actually getting worse. Part of the problem is the admission criteria, which Mr. Murthy said isn’t strict enough. As a result, “the quality of students entering IITs has gone lower and lower,” Mr. Murthy said to a gathering of IIT alumni in New York, according to the Press Trust of India. “They somehow get through the joint entrance examination. But their performance in IITs, at jobs or when they come for higher education in institutes in the US is not as good as it used to be,” he said.

This sparked an animated debate on IITs, a sensitive topic in India, where they are often viewed as veritable temples of learning. Chetan Bhagat, whose most famous novel-turned-Bollywood hit is set in an IIT, lashed back at Mr. Murthy. “It is ironic when someone who runs a body shopping company and calls it hi-tech, makes sweeping comments on the quality of IIT students,” he tweeted in response earlier this week.

The new global survey, however, adds weight to Mr. Murthy’s criticism. A stifling bureaucracy and an excessive focus on memorizing, rather than on developing analytical skills, are some of the reasons experts say higher educational institutes in India are not as good as they could be.

<snip>

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2011 01:12

^^I would imagine the low ranking is due to lack of significant research output rather than lack of quality of students (even with the aforementioned dilution in quality)?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 10 Oct 2011 01:33

IMO Murthy's misdiagnosing the issue when it comes to the IIT entrance.

India is now rich enough and integrated with the world economy to the point that the type of student who used to go to the IIT in the past can now go to a US university for his undergrad education, or get employed by an American employer after graduation from an Indian university.

So the IITs now have to cater to a different type of student.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2011 02:52

^^^I don't think the part about SDREs going from India to US for undergrad is still true for most folks given the high cost and lack of scholarships at that level - you gotta be rich or under severe loans to do that even today and the RoI is low as compared to going for Yum-Ess/Yum-Bee-Aye/Pee-chaddi.

On the 2nd point you are right, you don't need to be from Eye Eye Tea to get into Eye Tea and work for a MNC in India - I would imagine earlier folks like Infy would only take from Eye Eye Tea onlee. However, getting hired directly overseas is still far from the norm even for Eye Eye Teas.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 10 Oct 2011 04:25

The getting hired directly pipe is dry because the local subs want it that way. They'd rather hire the candidate and then have him transfer out in a few years.

As for the first part, while its true that an undergrad is expensive, you do see more kids from ordinary backgrounds (not P. Chidambaram or Godrej types) studying here. Plus the graduate school route is wide open, since they recruit students from India regardless of what college they went to locally in India.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2011 05:43

The grad route is definitely wide open now. In fact I think once I commented in here that the brand equity of Eye Eye Tea in massa is not due to the fact that folks from there were more successful in massa than folks from Non-Eye-Eye-Tea places but rather due to the fact that in the 60s-70s most SDREs going to massa for grad studies were from Eye-Eye-Tea anyways. A large factor would be the collaborations with furrin universities using which each Eye-Eye-Tea was set up and hence, much more interaction with furrin faculty and awareness amongst the students there about studying in massa, as compared to mango engineering colleges.

Now you don't see such a disparity since there are tons of people from other colleges landing up in massa and becoming successful regardless of whether they come from Eye-Eye-Tea or not.

Re. the undergrad route, I have noticed a rise too of SDREs from middle class backgrounds but pretty much all of the ones who don't come from family wealth have taken out significant loans. Perhaps the ease with which one can get a loan might have something to do with the rise. I definitely see this trend in the composition of Stan-madrassa and local CMU classes.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 10 Oct 2011 08:08

The rankings of IIT are low because they compare IIT ,a technical insti with full fledged university...In the category of engineering and technology IIT is 3rd in the world..In science it is 35th...

What IIT (and every other insti in US) needs to ensure is entrepreneurial culture...To maximise research output you need to make it profitable ...

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/s ... ioncode=26

the above was back in 2005-

Up to third position in 2005 from fourth place last year, the IITs are a source of Indian national pride as well as innovation and wealth.

Now these rankings are basically psy-ops..

We often come up with crap like xyz % of Indian grads are not employable...How many American engg's are employable? Surely not all ....90% of the path-breaking research in the US can be linked to 10-12 instis...rest are mainly for mango-teaching ...

My co-resident is from JHU....The chap is nothing exceptional...just a mango fella ...

Now in 2005 iit was ranked 3rd...as indicated in the above list...In 2009 iitb was ranked 30th and in 2010 it slipped to below 50...

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/R ... 50-IT.html

one of the criteria used is pay-scale...(nominal) 90% of IIT grads are employed in India,,,they can hardly compete with nominal payment in the US.......

Other reason is that "research output" includes the total output of the university...Most IIT research is engg/science...while most Harvard output is not science...also includes various sociology and humanity branches ... so that output is mostly useless ...I mean for writing a paper in philosophy journal ,all you have to do is fart...A whole lot of posts in BRFite would be published as research in sociology journals..

.. Harvard also includes a medical college (for the elite well connected type) with 3 hospitals (one of which sucks,if you end up in beth israeli deaconess boston , consider yourself a goner).Now the output in medschool in terms of absolute number of publications is quite high...you see an interesting patient , you publish it in the paper.. and harvards got a distinct advantage of having new england journal of medicine in their pockets...any farticle from Harvard would be published ...

Having said all this India needs to invest a hell lot more in research...All the NREGA and other socialist schemes funds can be diverted into research...MIT spends 750m on research every year...we give that much to each and every IIT and pretty soon we ll have every one of them in the top... And the H&D of the brfites will be high...

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 13 Oct 2011 22:16

India-U.S. Higher Education Summit kicks off

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 14 Oct 2011 06:20

There was some discussion about Indian students attending US under-grad schools etc..
Interesting article in NY Times..

NEW DELHI — Moulshri Mohan was an excellent student at one of the top private high schools in New Delhi. When she applied to colleges, she received scholarship offers of $20,000 from Dartmouth and $15,000 from Smith. Her pile of acceptance letters would have made any ambitious teenager smile: Cornell, Bryn Mawr, Duke, Wesleyan, Barnard and the University of Virginia.

But because of her 93.5 percent cumulative score on her final high school examinations, which are the sole criteria for admission to most colleges here, Ms. Mohan was rejected by the top colleges at Delhi University, better known as D.U., her family’s first choice and one of India’s top schools.
...

Ms. Mohan, 18, is now one of a surging number of Indian students attending American colleges and universities, as competition in India has grown formidable, even for the best students. With about half of India’s 1.2 billion people under the age of 25, and with the ranks of the middle class swelling, the country’s handful of highly selective universities are overwhelmed.

This summer, Delhi University issued cutoff scores at its top colleges that reached a near-impossible 100 percent in some cases. The Indian Institutes of Technology, which are spread across the country, have an acceptance rate of less than 2 percent — and that is only from a pool of roughly 500,000 who qualify to take the entrance exam, a feat that requires two years of specialized coaching after school.

...
American universities have now become “safety schools” for increasingly stressed and traumatized Indian students and parents, who complain that one fateful event — the final high school examination — could make or break a teenager’s future career.

But for some students, it is not merely the competition that drives them to apply to study in the United States. It is also the greater intellectual freedom of an American liberal arts education.

I....
Other students, finding entrance to their dream school in India impossible, have made similar choices. Siddhant Puri had wanted to study computer engineering at one of the Indian Institutes of Technology since he was a child. But after a month of coaching in the 11th grade, he decided it was not for him. Instead, he became the vice president of his high school class and played soccer, and now he plans to study German literature and computer science this year at the University of California, Berkeley.

;

Squeezed Out in India, Students Turn to U.S.

I can't help but notice.. one part in this story..

students exchanged exam horror stories. One knew ..... who was sick with typhoid but could not reschedule. ....

(Brought back the memory of one exam I had to take ..while I had very high fever due to typhoid...that was so long ago but I still remember it..

)

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 19 Oct 2011 19:51

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ng/452970/
Some juicy morsels for the bash eye-eye-tea thinktank of brf

.

In my assessment, about 50 per cent of the students in a batch are not interested in a career in engineering after graduation. Another 30 per cent are not sure what they want, or are struggling through their programme owing to handicaps they have brought with them, or because they are burnt out. So, only 20 per cent of the students are “good”. N R Narayana Murthy has come up with a similar figure.

It is, however, important to mention that two major transformations of the IIT system are under way. First, thanks to a parliamentary decision, there is a much greater “democratisation” of the system by design, replacing its earlier elitist character. Second, it has made an effort to reposition itself as a research university system, in which postgraduate education and research are as important as undergraduate education.

While introspection and self-criticism are important tools for making progress, it is important to give credit where it is due. IITs are rightly evolving to the next stage: becoming research universities in the global sense, where admission to undergraduate programmes becomes “difficult” rather than remaining “impossible”, and where motivated students pursue advancement of knowledge in well-equipped labs, and are mentored by good researchers.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Oct 2011 22:20

Is there any comparison done in suicide rates among students of elite institutions in India vs ones abroad (Ivy league, CalTech, MIT) ? If the rates are higher for India, then why do students have a low self-esteem, even the apparently bright ones doing well within the current system.

The IIT system or any of the other elite institutes in India should position itself, to make graduating out harder than focusing just on filtering methods used to getting in. I wonder if this will increase or decrease the suicide rates seen in the UG population of IITs.

It might take away some of the coaching induced competition at the entry point.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 19 Oct 2011 22:53

One thing that is beyond my understanding is that a typical graduate from India changes his/her studies several times in their life. An engineering graduate wants to get an MBA to become a manger., managing techies.

You study whatever college gives you "Admission" in., without knowing/realizing their potential. Lots of wastage of time.

Lots of people switch between Medicine, Engineering, Pharmacy and Commerce. It will be much better if child's potential is realized early on in high school (by 10th standard).

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 19 Oct 2011 22:57

Bade saar, suicides is a touchy topic as such. MHRD and the IIT Council were thinking of a task force to "study" suicides issue in September. Obviously, I have no clue if any such task force has even been set up by now.

But throwing the emotions aside, IMO, the recent surge in suicides in IITs is because of a complicated combo of many factors (not in any order of importance): i) "coasting" + online gaming + recklessness on the part of students, which leads to a lack of focus on educational responsibilities, ii) democratization that brings in a glut of people with poor preps who are unable to cope* with the dramatic changes in the system often at the Mtech level, but more these days at the Btech level too, iii) significant other/family factors that lead to their own pressures wildly underestimated, iv) inability to complete a Btech/Mtech in the stipulated time leading to h&d issues + loss of face/job/future/significant fortunes, v) people who come on the verge of depression and get pushed over by happenings inside the campus, etc. i) means a dramatic change in the entry system, which is envisioned. ii) is impossible to solve in India and with the current trend for more democratization, but hopefully i) can mitigate it. iii)-v) are impossible to even consider.

Folks such as ToI sensationalize and take away the real issues from real problems. Some alums dont help by haranguing and blaming Profs/Diro for the mess when the mess is with the GoI/MHRD-driven democratization measures (to a large measure) for which the GoI/MHRD never takes the blame. IMO, democratization brings the added responsibility of ensuring that the quality of provided education does nt drop. For that, the fac-student ratio should remain a constant, facilities-per-student-capita should remain constant, etc. GoI has done this reverse by first bulldozing a higher student ratio and then slowly building up faculty and not building facilities at all, and that too at arbitrarily low Sixth PC levels for remuneration. Have heard of 200+ classes these days, I myself sat in a class with 120 other students. Such numbers are not unheard of in amrika, but these are restricted to freshman classes, not for junior level. In IITs, 200+ classes continue through the core curriculum in the third year too.

*: I have seen people who come via the traditional quota routes (SC/ST and in my days, DASA which is no longer there now) who go through prep classes on-campus before being taken in officially get stigmatized a lot and unable to overcome the low self-esteem even many years later. Some (not all) of them come from really bad rural backgrounds with no school and should be placed on the Himalayas just for coming this far, but the system (students/faculty/admin alike) is blind/oblivious to the social inequities and the crappiness of large tracts of India. The system is peer-pressure driven and very unforgiving. This is the same mentality that made what it was before. Succeeds in gumbal, and fails in gumbal mentality.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 19 Oct 2011 23:09

More on the stu-fac ratio here...
http://www.indiaeducationreview.com/new ... 0-teachers

Newly minted IITs with the exception of the one in Medak district are battling the obvious disadvantages of being in tier-2 cities. Dual body problem is a big one. They dont have deep alum networks to reach out into. Plus, newer IITs are being planned just as we speak. And all while, the ones existing (even the older ones) are suffering. With this, they have a gipanda plan for 10K phds in engg. I have no idea who they are kidding. You cant have 10K phds without equal cashflow in. And there will not be 15K people who will want to do a phd in the first place, which modulo the conversion rate will lead to 10K phds. MHRD dictates under the brochure jehadism of PMO, Cabinet Council and thunk-tanks, but Ministry of Finance will put caps, babus will have a pita if parity is lost, Ministry of Rural development will ask for what stake they have, etc. You know the story...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 19 Oct 2011 23:20

A big part of the problem is that what you get to study is determined by your rank in a generic entrance exam. And that feeds the perception that a certain course of study must be chosen if you are a top ranker and the vicious cycle continues. For all you know the AIR 1 fella may not have any aptitude for computer engineering but may be superb for mechanical engineering but in 99% cases he will chose computer engineering during counselling. I don't see any easy solution to this problem.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Oct 2011 23:38

The above is very much true. Knew a EE guy who was almost getting CGPA of 5 or so the rumour was, do not know if true, but his interest went sky high when he started taking physics courses and later went to MIT/Caltech before disappearing again. There were many others from Mech as well CompSc who switched to physics. One is back teaching in the IIT system.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 20 Oct 2011 00:26

Why is an all-India problem pinned on the IITs? What is the state-of-affairs elsewhere? Are all the maakis that study at non-IIT aanjaneyaring colleges across the country full of clarity on why they do heck or what?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2011 01:06

I guess non-IIT guys are considered clueless with no vision anyways. Maybe that's why.

I can attest from what I saw/heard that 50% or more JU engg UGs are coasters with no particular goal either during their 4 years in college other than to land a job at the end of it.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 20 Oct 2011 01:10

The same buncha coasters who went to other universities now come to IITs given the increase in influx, so it should nt be really surprising to see them fall by the wayside. They also indulge those who would have otherwise worked hard if left to buttkicks from Ant-type rod sessions due to the chillax backgrounding and bridge playing antics.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Oct 2011 01:16

That is why I said earlier, make it harder to get out and it will surely keep the coasters out of IIT/IISER/IIST. So we need more Ant-Reddys among the faculty and more important if there is no inclination for engg/science then should be shown the door.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 20 Oct 2011 01:34

Harder to get out was true in EE only, even in those days. Not with other departments. So one ideally needs a systemic change. The problem is this: if folks start failing half the class and more suicides happen, the blame will again come on the profs. Its a game neither can win boss. And many of the new hires just want to do some research not get into the blame game of how youngistan is fcked. Gen Z is sleeping on the wheel, making changes in terms of grading wont make them wake up. They have to go through their own accidents to wake up. Fixing the system by administrative mess only kicks the can to the future. At some point, a proper portion of the blame should be attributed to Gen Z instead of everyone else. If people coast, its not a problem with the system cos the system assumes people will work on their own free will instead of being rodded to make them realize they have to work hard. Its a problem with the people. Bringing in a different set of people wont solve the problem because the fundamental issue lies with the set which generates the spoonfed idiots. Middle class, urban, Gen Z India is divorced from reality to a large measure. When Arundhoti Roy says, middle class India has divorced itself from rural India, we find it inconvenient cos A Roy is not the flavor of the season. We throw away the people who bring inconvenient realities because they also have their ideological biases. But thats a sad fact of life. People who fight for their freedom and win it eventually know the value of it, not those who accept it as a god given right and privilege. Gen Z is far away from pre-91 license raj India.