J & K news and discussion

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Muppalla
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

brihaspati wrote:As for eductational opportunities, I heard in the 90's from my Kashmiri (Muslim) friends, that the militants and separatists were targeting childrens' school, especially the girls education in the state system. A whole generation apparently was deliberately pushed into the Madrassah system. I was unable to visit or "pass through" J&K post 97. I am reporting from the period 89-96.
This was the start of the worst time in JK education system. The Srinagar REC was shut down during that period and the students are distributed to several other Government Engineering colleges across India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

It is problematic to ascribe certain regions to a particular social practice based on one characterization only. We loosely use this term "cow-belt". Why should we call it a cow-belt? Are cows only grazed in this part of India or are cows any less important in any other part of India? Lack of educational opportunities are of similar if not of more intensity among many forest tribes, or other parts of economically and infrastructurally backward areas - large tracts of MP, eastern Maharashtra, northern AP, Orissa, even parts of Assam valley - who do not show such fondness for "honour killings".

What if I also find the very regions being touted as "cow-belt" and "honour killing prone" are also linguistically predominantly "Hindi", or are exactly those areas where Islamic rule established itself and survived the longest and which the British left out in their "social dismantling agenda" after 1857 (those areas which lay under Islamic regimes from almost the beginning of Muslim power in India and law but were not tampered with like Bengal by the British)? There is some evidence that many aspects of the Sharia, especially the Hudood - which can be interpreted and extended to justify "honour killings" was imposed in large tracts of the Sultanate and became the only de-facto judicial system available or functioning in significant way. So much so that sometime during the reakup and roll-back of the Mughal empire, non-Muslim rulers retained the Qazi system and Sharia based justice as the only remaining viable one.

Should I interpret this to mean "Hindi" or "Shariati views on Hudood" are responsible for "honour killings"?

I am not saying "honour-killing" is associated with "Hindi" or "Islamic rule" - but ascribing the practice to such unique characterizations as the "cow-belt" appears problematic. (Well some may also interpret the expression as saying only "cows" reside in that "belt"!)
Last edited by brihaspati on 01 Aug 2009 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

History books say it was Akbar in 1580 who replaced the Sadr-e- Sadr and allowed state financing of all schools and admission of all people. He let the religious instructions in the madari and allowed opning of other schools which had an eclectic mix. The lapse is allowing the wakfs to open madari only.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

RayC wrote: One has to know Kashmir to comment.

Honour Killings are taking place in India. Why? Lack of education and emancipation.

Why are the Honour Killing confined to the cowbelt and not anywhere else in India? They are mostly illiterates and steeped in false honour! They are people who refuse to embrace contemporary thniking since they are beyond education!

My experience indicates education is a crying need in Kashmir. Not the madrassa type but what you and I have been given.

Even in the NE, there was not adequate education. There is now education there, but no employment and so the trouble continues, though on a lower scale than before. Therefore, there is merit in the need for education in the far flung parts of the India. Have you seen how many people from the NE crowd the universities in hinterland India! Are they troublesome? But because they wear western clothes, we trouble them, mostly those in North India.

Kashmiri youth excel in terrrorism? Are you aware how the youth are introduced to terrorism? If so, please educate us! We are all ears. If you don't know, then don't assume and cast aspersions! To quote your phrase - can you show how the Kashmiri youth are excelling in terrorism instead of excelling in education?

Please compare the number of quality schools in Kashmir with the quality schools in rest of India. You give them the opportunity and they will also be able to compete for IITs and IIMs.

Let us not superimpose Alice in Wonderland for logic!
RayC-ji,

Firstly, let’s take the negative things out. My statement about Kashmir-youth excelling in terrorism is as bad a generalization as yours in that Kashmiris are lazy lot and rest of Indians do not know/care about Kashmir. I will take my statement back when you take yours.

My understanding of Kashmir comes from what I read and learn from all the sources available to me. I learned about Kashmir the same way I learned about Indian history. It will be practically impossible for me to be everywhere every time to KNOW about a specific place or event FIRST HAND.

On terrorism, I read and learn how various ex-professors, students turned to RELIGIOUS terrorism and have been burning Indian side of Kashmir for the past 20 years. And all the news pictures I see are full of Kashmiri youth pelting stones at and burning of the abysmal government/public infrastructure.
On education, what Kashmir needs first is a sound and factual primary and secondary education followed by strong vocational education. For the population density of Kashmir valley, the JK University will be sufficient, if it is allowed to function well away from, again terrorism.

On the quality of education (I assume private), who in the right mind will want to establish a quality modern educational institution? It is a function of peace, stability and prosperity. Until then it should be managed by the JK state government, because primary education is one of its responsibilities.

Unfortunately JK state voters elected (again a Kashmir centric assembly construct) the government they deserved. Why crying on someone else?

That brings us to this thread, where we (the non-Kashmiris) are trying to resolve Kashmir problem for us and for them. Then we have to be practical about the solution structure because all these tactical moves are interlinked. They are like fingers in the hand. They have to bend a little bit to make a strong punch.

I rest my case.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Vikas »

RayC wrote:My experience indicates education is a crying need in Kashmir. Not the madrassa type but what you and I have been given.
RayC, No one is denying that education is the prime need of the hour but that is true for whole of India. Where is the proof that with IIT/IIM Education, KM's would still not be chanting anti-India slogans and exploding bombs.
If we go by the same logic, the whole of J&K should be teeming with terrorists. How is that only Muslims that too mostly from Kashmir are indulging in terrorism. For crying out loud, Jammu and Ladakh have same education system with same kind of schools if not worse. They haven't yet picked up guns and have started killing everyone around.
I think it is most convenient argument to talk about education and poverty when talking about terrorism.
You or some of the other few folks may have attended elite schools but most of us Indians attended the same kind of schools that were available in J&K. Education would not change anything.
We have examples of A-Roy's, Pandeys, The folks at Hundi etc etc who though educated are nothing but terrorists of Pen and apologists for terrorists.
After 3 days of Prayers and sweetness, even Bhagwan Sri Ram was compelled to pick up his arrow. So sweetness and niceness has its time and place but then sometimes force works where love and empathy does not.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

somnath wrote
Brihaspati, WB was a peaceful state with zero security issues or historical baggage - problems still occured...the point was the implications of doing the same thing in Kashmir with all its historical and security background...The only "alike" example I can think of is Israeli settleemtns in occupied territories - we all know the situation, and the military asymmetry is far higher there..Now the Israelli state has the grand objective of only maximising its occupation of the "promised land" and preserving a Jewish state...It has no great power ambitions...Even with such propitious confluence of motivation and capability, they are struggling with a venture that is many times lesser in scale than what is being proposed here..I am extremelyh "careful" in my analogies - therefore sceptical of the more fanciful of ideas..
As far as I know, WB had serious security issues or historical baggage depedning on your criteria. Forget riots of 47. In 1953 there was a serious unrest in Calcutta, widely participated by students and public - protesting a one paisa rise in tram fare. I know that bombs had been used by militant student organizations, and the police had ruthlessly beaten to death ordinary peaceful protesters. The same story repeated in 59, as a march of rural folk protesting for "lack of food" were again ruthlessly lathi-charged. The police was known to have specifically targeted the heads to kill. There was a picture in the "Swadhinata" magazine which showed "muri" (puffed rice) brought by the villagers floating on a stream of blood. The story is not fabricated as I have cross-examined participants and eye-witnesses. After the charge, the city turned violent and police vehicles began to be burned on sight (many parts of central and north Calcutta are perfect for holding up lightly armed forces), so that police began to use Red Cross and ambulances to move forces. Some of these were also caught and burnt. The then CM P. Sen, an ardent "Gandhian", who had ordered the lathi-charge went out to have a survey of the success of the operations.

Food became an issue for marches and widespread protests in WB throughout the 60's. In fact the Naxalite violence started before the '71 war (although the party formed formally only in late ;71 in an open meeting at the maidan).

But I do not know of any organized violence perpetrated on the refugees. In fact as far as I am aware of there were some instances of "violence" or forced/illegal occupation/squatting on the part of sections of the "refugees" in the southern parts of the city. WB mostly welcomed the refugees and ordinary public did their best or went out of the way to accommodate and help out.

I do not think the J&K situation can be compared to the Israeli situation at all.

(1) The source of dispute in Israel is not ethnicity. If it was ethnicity then we have to accept that almost all non-Jewish ethnicities in the near and middle East and SE Asia have severe problems with the Jews - even those who had never historically been attacked by any of the various historical Jewish principalities. No known Jewish force attacked and invaded the Persians, the ancient Iraqis, Egypt (unless we equate the Hyksos with Israelites), Assyria. But now every non-Jew has problems. The only common thing we find between such a variety of anti-Jew ethncities is that they all follow Islam in one of its two flavours.

(2) The main problem is the reminder that Judaism is the source from which Islam derives, and Islam started out by desperately trying to usurp and replace the authority of Judaism. As long as an independent Judaic nations remains it goes against the primary legitimacy of Islamic theological authority - that the entire Abrahamic tradition resides solely in Islam. Existence of an independent Judaic nation creates problems in consolidation of cultural authority in Islamic icons because of much older and legitimate primacy claims of Judaism on the important "holy" sites.

(3) The post-oil scenario : as and when oil becomes less important for the world economy, the ME will have to go back to its traditional historical survival strategy - by using its geographical position in between the main production and consumption centres of West and East as a trade conduit. For this it will desperately look forward to its historical dream of a continuous "Caliphate" that stretched from the North Africa to Indonesia. Only such a construct can effectively seal off the Eastern Mediterranean and control and live off the flow of products. Here Israel is an effective disruptor projecting western presence into the fertile crescent.

In Kashmir Valley, the problem is not that they need to usurp the legitimacy of "Hinduism/Buddhism" and replace it completely. They in fact distance themselves as much as possible from the latter. In fact emphasizing Islamic origins creates a dilemma. Because of the Mecca/Medina centric focus on legitimacy, there is a fervent and desperate need in Muslims all over the world to try and show descent or derivation from Arabs and glorify their having come to the domicile as "invaders/preachers" from the "centre". So there is always the curious dichotomy I have noticed in many Muslim Kashmiris as a contardictory pull in trying to identify themselves as Arab-derived on the one hand and trying to establish "bhumiputra" status on the other. They need Islam as a rallying point, but more they do, without a distinct Arabic cultural base, they have to fall back on the native culture which shows contiguity with those they need to destroy to survive.

Moreover, western part of the Valley can only benefit from the Central Asian trade route between China and Europe, if the Indus Valley is prosperous and productive enough. Economic failure of Pakistan cuts off the only viable survival route for an independent "Kashmir". Thus the "Kashmiryiat" movement is intimately dependent on the success and survival of TSP and not otherwise. This is a completely different situation from that in Israel.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

archan wrote:User somnath has been warned for using the offensive phrase yet again.
^^^ It is perfectly ok to repeatedly (in almost every other reference) term TOI as TOIlet, congress as Kangress, assorted individuals (MMS, C Raja Mohan, Shekhar Gupta, Dr Pandey, Arundhati Roy, Bikram Sen, B Raman etc etc) as closet commies or "sold out yank lovers" or morons, all newspapers (maybe with the exception of Panchajanya?) as either commie lovers or yankee sellouts, all political parties (barring BJP "soemtimes") as morons, deshdrohis, or worst in the payrolls of either CPC or CIA, organisations such as NMML, JNU referred to as commie dens...But a sarcastic reference to RSS is offensive?! :twisted:

thats a very skewed "normality" of the ideological normal curve - or maybe I guess as Nassim Taleb says, nothing's "normal"! :wink: But then this isnt "TAlebian randomness" either, seems only a uniform distribution of ideological bias - stuck at a level...

But way OT...

Brhapati, the WB example was to point out what was the result of an "expected migration" of populace (we are talking abotu some sort of "forced migration" in the topic)...WB had a partition baggage, however it was long dissipated (and bengal was flirting with more radical ideas of egalitarianism at that time), and the B'deshi migration was expectd to be ephemereal in any case..Plus, most bengalis had a great deal of sympathy for the "fellow bengalis" fleeing persecution..Still there were huge challenges, mostly social, and one of the reasons why Indira Gandhi wanted to "get over with it quickly" was precisely this reason....JN Dixit's "India and Pakistan in war and peace" has some details about this...

about the Israeli example - I am not arguing about the raison de etre of Israeli-Arab equations..Simply the fact that Israel has tried the sort of "demographic invesion" that is being talked about here - it has greater confluence of strategic and ideological objectives around that and a far more benign power symmetry situation, and a far more predictable "path dependency" (thanks to American influence). And even then they are struggling, and the very strategy has becoem a millstone around their necks...

Narayanan, RamaY, The IIT/IIM example is a metaphor of what can be achieved quickly, "quick wins"...Our infrastructural progress is a well known joke...However when we are talking of societies integrating, the biggest integrator is economic...It is easy to say "let Kashmiris compete with the rest of the people and get the seats"...How many good schools do you have in Kashmir, or colleges? I referred to the Bihar example, where a group of guys have set up a coaching class for poor kids and are training them up for JEE - with stupendous results...

30-40 eery year and 300-400 in 10 years - not enough, but I reckon will be enough to transform the mindset of awhole generation as a true middle class is created..FOr each kid getting into an IIT or an IIM, there would be hundreds more aspiring and going on to at least the RECs and the XLRIs, at least going on to the NIITs of India..who knows, one of these bright kids go on to found a second Infosys or a second Wipro and the process will be doubly hastened...The American dream is primarily about access to world class education and then gainful employment - the Indian dream is very very similar...
We have a decent security situation prevailing in Kashmir - the next step is to consolidate the societal integation..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by archan »

It is perfectly ok to repeatedly (in almost every other reference) term TOI as TOIlet, congress as Kangress, assorted individuals (MMS, C Raja Mohan, Shekhar Gupta, Dr Pandey, Arundhati Roy, Bikram Sen, B Raman etc etc) as closet commies or "sold out yank lovers" or morons
Many users have been warned and banned for calling names to our PM and other officials. Two recent bans that come to mind are CRamS and Baljeet. Also, ask negi about his experience. :)
When you warn people for calling names to GoI officials they come back and call you Congress supporter and pseudo secular and when you warn someone for calling a Hindu organization names, you get the other rant. :)
We mods are like "thali ke baingan". We side with the "sekoolar" forces at times and then we are partial towards the "pseudo-sekoolar" ones at other times. We have no principles onlee.
Oh yeah, if someone bad mouths <your favorite newspaper>, do report the post and I will ask them to retract their offensive statement towards your favorite newspaper.
That being said, I agree that we have plenty here who think they know better what is good for the nation than the people who win elections, deal with officials from GOTUS and other govts. and are right in the thick of things etc. etc. This is a jingo forum and some of the jingoes go overboard from time to time. I don't claim to be able to correct all of them all the time but I have to keep a threshold in my mind - every time that threshold of offensiveness is crossed, I have to warn, and below that I can let things slip with occasional nudges here and there. True, one cannot shut every mouth out there but it does not give you a license to continue using phrases that are offensive to others even after 1) requests and 2) warnings.
PS: I don't claim to be impartial so if you feel I am being unreasonable, I respect your opinion. :) However, please remember that the next time something like this happens, you will get a third warning, which comes with a ban stuck to it. Goodluck.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

Archan,

I dont believe there would be any limit to the "offensiveness quotient" once every adjective (or adverb) is scrutinised, not in a blog like this (barring the personal ones)...And mine wsa purely in sarcastic vein...about "bans etc" - thanks for your goodluck message, but BRF is a useful forum for info, not my workplace!! :wink: As I said, the ideological quotient seems to be a uniform distribution stuck at some point very very "right"!!! :wink: But will stop going OT now...

Briefly about the whole business of India's influence or the lack of it - C Raja Mohan's Crossing the Rubicon, which I was browsing last night, is a great source of info on that..Starting with PVNR's look east policy to the effective engagement with great powers, India's influence today would be precisely the sort of dreams that policy makers would have had in 1947, though of a slightly different "format"..when the SU attacked Afghanistan, they didnt quite inform India did they? when the US did the same after 9/11, Colin Powell visited India thrice, and since then India has been the top non-Paki, non-US interlocutor in Afghanistan (something that the US does not anymore shy away from saying even to the Pakis)..

It is all very well to think of influence in terms of absolute corecive powers, but even the US does not have it over any country (barring maybe Pak)...Influence is far more nuanced, and shows up in the subtleties of the real world...One example, MAhinda Rajapakshe imported ammo from China and Pak - but "waits" for an appointment from who to discuss the Tamil issue? Asean has huge Chinese influences, cultural and economic - but who do they repeatedly do military exercise with, and who does Singapore have training agreements with? These are some of the things that show up as influences...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

Can we get back to J&K?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

RayC wrote:Can we get back to J&K?
Please do. Moi sincerest thanks in anticipation.

Any further news on the status of Sri Omar Abdullah's resignation drama? Did mebooba mufti not take oath as a legislator under the Indian (and not the cashmeri) constitution?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

somnath wrote:RajeshA,

I am not "preaching" to you or anyone, though the "ji" adds a few years to my age everytime! :)

As an amateur student of modern history, I dont find "silver bullet", "slash and burn" solutions practical, even though they might be popular in blogs, and certain types of mindsets (read RSS)...
'fantastic', 'fanciful' has now become 'silver bullet'.

End of Cold War, Break up of the Soviet Union, Break up of Yugoslavia, Independence of East Timor, Coming down of the Berlin Wall, Autonomy and eventual Independence for Kosovo, End of Colonialism, Chinese takeover of Tibet, Chinese takeover of Xinjiang, ithyadi, ithyadi.

If you see it from one end of telescope, they look like historical phenomenon whose time had come. If you look from the other end of the telescope, there were men and women who worked tirelessly to see these things through. They saw opportunities, prepared a constituency for the push, and pushed events over the cliff of history.

Perhaps you should read a bit more about such men and women, who together with others worked on the silver bullet, for another strategic gain for their nations.
somnath wrote:India is tying herself up in knots? Really? Lets look at the issue at hand - J&K..

Has India been more secure about J&K anytime before? when was the last time the UN saw any fireworks on Kashmir? Didn't Kofi Annan himself declare the impotency of UN on Kashmir? Didn't US (that nasty "buyout party") come out and insist on the inviolability of LoC? Since the 1990 uprising, is the violence at its lowest ebb? Don't the last couple of elections happen to be the most representative ones in Kashmir's history? Do we need to field our foreign minister on trips abroad anymore to canvass on Kashmir? Do sundry American and European officials hold forth on Kashmir anymore? Or do they dismiss the issue as a bilateral one and brush it aside?

The answer to all these questions would be pointer to whether India is in a far better state today than she was 20 years back on Kashmir..
In many of your examples, you speak of how Anglo-American Power Cartel has come about to accept India's position on that part of Kashmir, that is administratively part of India. They have grudgingly done it and only after India showed a willingness to accept their legitimacy in the world power equation, where they wield disproportionally large power. Accepting the obvious is hardly a concession, a victory we can write home about. Their acceptance of the inviolability of LoC is hardly in our interest. Our loss of land is being coded into international law.

In all the above examples, you have not even once mentioned how far we have blunted the blade of knife, which Islamism and China hold at India's throat. Has their capacity to harm India in Kashmir decreased? Pakistan's break up would have an effect eventually but we are not there as yet. But even then Islamism would remain a potent force.

According to our Constitution the whole of J&K belongs to us. How far have we come in securing that?
somnath wrote:It is not about "indigestion" of some Kashmiri Muslims.. Its about the realization of reality, and not forgetting the big picture..the big picture is that Kashmir or Pakistan is a sideshow in our grand strategic scheme of things..Sustaining a growth of 7-8%, building up a domestic MIC, influencing events in Asia and consolidating our position in the high tables (while keeping all the other "johnies" out) are our objectives..A final solution project, does nothing to aid any of these objectives - in fact sets back all of them by a bit..
Kashmir & Pakistan is not a sideshow. It is an important hurdle in the race to go forward. We have to build the power of our nation on a solid foundation. The ladder to the moon, has to hold. If we leave Kashmir as it is, we will be leaving a mortal flaw in that ladder, which our adversaries can use anytime against us.

We had a discussion on the Foreign Policy Thread, and you dodged a response to the questions I put to you. I repeat here because it shows a fundamental flaw in your views on the nature of power, which stops you from seeing the necessity for the Indic core to establish its control over Kashmir first.
RajeshA wrote:
somnath wrote:Indefatigable will etc is a bit of talk..Finally the "hard" things matter..Are we in the bidding process for Africa's resources? Are we in the front lines of changing IMF's mandate with our dollars? Are we in a position to mount serious naval expeditions? Are we in the "space race"? Are we influencing WTO negotiations? the world looks at these s symbols of hard power and respects its proponents..
It is not just the bidding for African resources that matter, but how do you react if somebody else is willing to get those resources by hook or by crook.
What if PRC decides to arm some faction, have them carry out a coup, and the new leaders feel obliged to sell the raw materials to PRC only? Would India react?
What if we get the rights over some resources in some African country, and PRC decides to foment trouble using some ethnic grievance around the area of extraction or in the transit path, thus stopping India to avail of those resources? Would India react?
Would India be willing to play dirty to stop PRC from availing those resources as in the above examples?

What are serious naval expeditions? Should there be a controversy over some maritime area near Myanmar, which has petrocarbons, and PRC decides to come to Myanmar's help in securing those petrocarbons from Indian claims? Would India react?

Do we have the wherewithal to be in the space race, should it become hot? What if PRC deploys some satellites or satellite-based missiles threatening Indian security, would India be willing to respond? What if we set up a small space station, to be used as a launchpad for further space exploration, and PRC decides to sabotage it, or destroy it claiming plausible deniability, but we have strong reasons to be suspicious? Would India react?

What if PRC decides to put up a naval blockade around Taiwan, and India is as per WTO rules allowed to carry trade with Taiwan? Would India push her luck and try to break the blockade and be ready to face the consequences?

These are questions a truly great power needs to answer! Everything else is just baniyagiri, important for prosperity but not decisive for claiming a great power status!
Your contention is that India does not need any coercive power or will, and as such we can proceed to bigger things in life. I think it is stupid to hurry to go and do job interviews, when one is bleeding spinal fluid. India can build up her spine and backbone, only if we take care of Kashmir in a permanent and decisive way first or in parallel.
somnath wrote:China enters into an agreement with Jammat e Islami because it wants to keep Xinjiang trouble free...Now Xinjiang has never had a history of security trouble (before the recent riots), the Chinese have settled Hans by the millions there, and China has a friendly Pak as neighbor...Why does it then sleep with the "enemy"? simple - it does not want a distraction for its larger goals..
It also does not want a disruption in the political and military alliance it has built with Pakistan & Islamism in general to wage a war of attrition against India and the West. That is part of its larger goals.

Larger goals does not just mean making a few dollars more, as it is your world view.

Secondly it went and made truce with an Islamic faction within the bigger Islamism, which could help PRC win against the faction which is its true enemy - the Uyghurs, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement. As you can see, they are too not willing to deal with their enemies. Do you think PRC would make a deal with an enemy, the ETIM, and give them concessions? NEVER!
somnath wrote:We as a nation state (also as a people might I say) sometimes do not exhibit the "demonstration of will" displayed by some others...We are after all "argumentative Indians"!! But to say we lack national will and we are being buffeted out is a gross underestimation of our achievements -we do it in our own style, but in matters of national importance, seldom do we give in...Kashmir to me a glaring example of that - from 1947 onwards..
The "demonstration of will" becomes a casualty not to the "argumentative Indians", but rather to a very skewed world view that we can buy peace with aggressive nations through appeasement and japphi-pappi. Cowardice in front of a school bully has been elevated to a national ideology for international relations.

You don't consider leaving Pakistan with Balwaristan and Western Jammu a glaring example of giving in! You don't consider Article 370 a glaring example of giving in! You don't consider J&K getting more Central Funds than other states as appeasement, i.e. of giving in! This is defeatism.

The problem is, in India's case, jingoism is a word used for people who would want to use coercive means to defend that what is ours.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

Came across this book. Haven't read it yet, but on the fact of it looks to be laying the groundwork for getting the West involved in Kashmir.

Jesus in Kashmir The Lost Tomb By Suzanne Olsson
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

vera_k wrote
Came across this book. Haven't read it yet, but on the fact of it looks to be laying the groundwork for getting the West involved in Kashmir.
Jesus in Kashmir The Lost Tomb By Suzanne Olsson
No, actually the west, especially its Christian establishment has tried its best to delink from this. For very obvious reasons. It takes away the high-ground of revelations, as being derived or influenced or sourced from pagan Indic philosophies. Even if governments try to use this for strategic reasons, it can backfire politically given the solid entrenchment of various church and Christian organizations in western society.

The story however is quite old - in the modern period, the Russian traveller Notovich was the first one. Swami Abhedananda was the second and most influential debater on this. Many have followed. Recently someone from the "west" actually made a documentary trying to retrace the "steps" into eastern Ladakh. This is perhaps a more popular current trend of trying to humanize "Christ" - and a need in many to believe that Jesus somehow "lived on".
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

There seems to be three threads of discussion on this "thread":

1. Kashmir - whether we are in a "sweet spot" today or are we haemorrhaging
2. Broader national grand strategy for India as a nation state
3. RSS

The first two have obvious interlinkages, the third one not really (I might have been guilty of invoking the name, but that ws only in a sarcastic vein referring to a mindset - it would be useful to start a thread on the RSS separately thoug)..

Back to whether our Kashmir policy is paying off...

A few indicators that I would look for are:

1. Level of violence in Kashmir
2. Level of the "writ of the state" in "civil" areas
3. Level of international "chatter" on Kashmir

Look at the first..Here is a first class report on the state of violence in J&K...

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... index.html

Remember, this is even while the Army got replaced by the CRPF in 2007-08 phase...

If someone says that our overall strategy is not working on the military front...well...and obviously it is a bouquet of factors that are working, not just military efficiency - intel, and above all international pressure on Pakistan to lay off..

The second factor, writ of the state in civil matters - one indication that is bellwether for Kashmir would be election turnout - and the numbers are well known to bear repetition...But some data to illustrate the point..Obviously its a testament to a much sharper political management on our part - long cry from the 1987 elections (or many others before or after)..

http://eci.nic.in/StatisticalReports/El ... istics.asp
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... on2008.htm

Key data is the diiference in 2002 and 2008 numbers in the Kashmiri districts - and these two were probably the "fairest elections" in J&K's history...(at least since the 80s).

Finally, about the international chatter on Kashmir..Funnily no one even notices how the K word has disappeared even from the "sellout" SeS lexicon...About the rest, no one even entertains any question on Kashmir any more...

Most people forget that just about 15 years ago we were having to fight "do or die" sort of battle with Pak in the international fora over Kashmir (remember the famous UNHCR summit, ABV and Salman Khurshid representing India on a resolution over Kashmir? touted as a major "diplomatic victory" during that time)..Today, we dont even care to brush it off..Its so inconsequential..

Those who get hyper over our being "satisfied" with what we have and not havign a viable "plan" for PoK - first of all, we are a status quoist power - we are looking to add influence, not territory...More importantly, do we really want to add another few million muslims to the Indian nation state? Most of them jihadi indoctrinated? Philosophically, I wouldnt...Strategically it would be a disaster opening the can for another insurgency..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by shravan »

^^ Good Analysis.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

RajeshA,

I didnt respond to your earlier post (on the other thread) because most of the questions are raised in future speculative tense...Barring one though I can find, ie, the one on influence peddling in Africa...
It is not just the bidding for African resources that matter, but how do you react if somebody else is willing to get those resources by hook or by crook.
What if PRC decides to arm some faction, have them carry out a coup, and the new leaders feel obliged to sell the raw materials to PRC only? Would India react?
We are already doing that - to the limits of our (current) capabilities...If China is buying off the Sudanese despots, so are we...And we are paying obviously higher to get a foothold there (China was in earlier) despite China's objections...about the rest, we shall see if something of that sort happens..

As to your idea, it is a silver bullet idea, but fanciful as well (as are most silver bullet ideas in the geostrategic domain)...

All the examples you quoted have been the result of long incremental developments, not a delibertae silver bullet strategising..Even the break up of the SU, no one in the US actually "planned" for it, all declassified CIA/State department documents and their analyses clearly show that the americans were as surprised when it happened as any one else..

Our fundamental difference in POV seems to be this..
Kashmir & Pakistan is not a sideshow. It is an important hurdle in the race to go forward. We have to build the power of our nation on a solid foundation.
Did China say that "lets fix Taiwan" to create a "strong foundation"? and Taiwan is a symbol of a completely different vision of the Chinese nation state, not a local insurgency movement..It didnt, but forged close economic links with it even as it went about doing the other important things..J&K or Pakistan is not Taiwan - we cannot deal with them similarly, but they are not our central grand strategic objective..

Similarly, the Chinese deal with JEI was an example of what they can do to keep their focus on the big picture - siilarly I wouldnt expect us to make a deal with LET, or SIMI - but trying to undercut them by doing deals (or more explicitly, talking about "talks) with their sponsors (read Pak) seems like a jolly good idea..the fact is that Pak does not have the capacity to hurt us frontally anymore, they can only hurt us through proxies like LET - weaken the LET and create divides between LET and its sponsors, and you are going somewhere in the tactical imperatives..

Coercive power is not built up through "actions", they need to be built up through capabilities - econmic and military..Those who sneer at the "rush for a few more dollars" forget that a lot fo our new found influence is a result of our economy....

People can dream all that they can about PoK or for that matter concepts of Akhand Bharat..Fact is that I would not want millions of (primarily jihadi) muslims inside India...but more importantly, if it happens, it will be as a consequence of a series of events that would catapult India even higher and Pak even lower to the respective datum levels..
Not because it becoems "the objective" for us...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by somnath »

vera_k wrote: It is mentioned in Narender Sehgal's book. The author looks legit since the MEA quotes material from his book. The book says some 200 people were trained to use a gun.

Point is, being holdouts on Kashmir is one possible reason why the RSS will be maligned by people looking for a compromise.
Who is Narender Sehgal? what I read in the link was a few sub tactical "civilian help" type ops - nothing to suggest RSS had some huge impact..

Fact that most authoritaive books on Kashmir's accession to India (MJ Akbar's India - the siege within, or Prem Shankar Jha's Origins of a dispute, or Alistair Lamb's Kashmir: a disputed legacy) mention anything about RSS (or at least anythign substantive to merit a mention)..
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

OK chaps, I have got lot of advice that this thread is going off course.

I assure you that the Moderators are now hopping mad at the freewheeling ways in many threads, not only this one. They are girding up their loins.

Therefore, a friendly advice - Stay on course!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

somnath wrote:
Murli Manohar Joshi's "raising the Indian flag" in Srinagar stunt..In a precarious security situation, it forced the entire security machinery in J&K to give security to this "yatra" MM Joshi and some 50 others who finally raised the flag in a sanitised Srinagar..MM joshi was simply trying to outdo LKA's "rath yatra" and create a separate niche for himself in the sangh parivaar...Unfortunately for him, it was a major farce - even the party took it as that..
Why are you worried. So many people have said this and that. So many including Nehru has done some form of this march during independence.
If you dont agree dont agree with it. There are lot of people who follow many leaders. Leaders will create their own niche. Are you jealous?[/quote]

I will not comment on the political aspect.

I will only state the effect on the mind of the people.

Raising the Flag at that moment of time was absolutely appropriate and would have shown the intent of India that we will not tolerate all this nonsense. Other Indians were not capable, but the BJP, which is a nationalist party and of that there is no doubt, it kindled hope amongst those who wanted it to happen but did not have the courage to join in! But then, that is India.

When it failed to come about in a bold and defying way (with security anyone could do it) it was demoralising as if Indians and in this case the BJP leaders who are more nationalist than others as per perceptions, were afraid to face the terrorists since thier own lives were too precious!

The Indian independence movement have many martyrs who gave their lives willingly and were not cosmetic!

Bengal has many such martyrs, even if they are unsung!

Put your money where you mouth is, what I feel!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Thread cleaned up.
Please stay on topic.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

The Srinagar flag hoisting is very much concerning J&K.

It had it ramifications.

But since you feel otherwise and I will not contest, I stand back!

I find this audacious and an attempt to pull wool and come out smelling of roses!
RayC wrote:
Acharya,
I had read that the BJP would march to Kashmir.
Did that happen?

Where did you read it. Please show me.
And then it has to be told to him which he later agrees! MMS and 50 men!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Rahul M »

fine, I'll move it back if you think so. there were a lot of posts and errors of judgement do happen.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

No,

Good thing that you did.

It was becoming acrimonious.

But I am amazed at the gall of this gentleman to question when it did happen and he is an RSS man and he does not know till he is awakened.

Are we here to keep giving proof? Am I to understand such a great scholar as him suddenly suffering from selective amnesia?

This is the hyprocrisy that gets my goat!

He is offended that RSS is called knickerbockerwallahs, I am offended and damned irritated that one has to give proof to an RSS man for his own activities!! He is wasting my time as if he think it to be here and debating with him and educating him of his own activities a luxury that I can afford!
RayC wrote:
Acharya,
I had read that the BJP would march to Kashmir.
Did that happen?

Where did you read it. Please show me.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Somanath-ji

Like I said many times, peace a function of power and will to act. Prosperity is a function of peace, hardwork and education (including vocational, heriditary etc). Civilizational advancement is not only a function of that peace and prosperity (with associated sub-functions), but also another critical item, the ideology that respect knowledge, exploration and pluralism. India is one of the very few civilizations that have that genetic structures. That doesn't mean people cannot survive and even prosper in other parts of the world. The only difference is that only Indic-type civilizations can bring that human evolution at the scale of whole societies and nations.

We all need lot of study, analysis and discussion to identify the "civilizational" contributions of various cultures and sub-cultures. Just because a specific culture/ideology co-existed in a larger civilization for 100-1000 years doesnt mean that they really made any unique and value-added contributions to the underlying civilization. I am open to learn about any such contributions if are provided with references.

I am not undervaluing the inspirational aspect of an IIT/IIM type coaching centers here and there. What I am trying to say is when a specific ideology that despises and destroys anything remotely associated with rest-of-india, how can one expect such coaching centers to be allowed without threats? So all these actions have to be taken simultaneously.

The liberals and peacenicks undermine the very security aspect that offers them protection. India has tried this approach for many years. And now that it acquired some strength, it must do the right thing.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

There is no doubt that peaceniks and liberals are no answer to solving the J&K riddle.

At the same time, military action is neither.

Balochistan is an example of a total failure where aircraft, artillery and all weapons that is used for an enemy was used.

What is required is integration of Kashmiris with the mainstream as we have done with the NE.

NE is no longer that fierce insurgency that it was!

The NE people are encouraged to come to hinterland Indial, edcuate themselves and mix with mainstream India. The effect is showing!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

RayC wrote:There is no doubt that peaceniks and liberals are no answer to solving the J&K riddle.

At the same time, military action is neither.

Balochistan is an example of a total failure where aircraft, artillery and all weapons that is used for an enemy was used.

What is required is integration of Kashmiris with the mainstream as we have done with the NE.

NE is no longer that fierce insurgency that it was!

The NE people are encouraged to come to hinterland Indial, edcuate themselves and mix with mainstream India. The effect is showing!
RayC-ji,

I am not advocating mass killings of Kashmiris. What I am advocating is that we should stop treating them as above-rest-of-india. Their culture is as unique and valuable to India as that of Andaman-Nicobar natives. Protect them but do not allow them to blackmail rest of India while living like parasites.


Show them that the law-of-land applies to them the same way it applies to me. If anyone disobeys the law-of-land, there will be severe consequences. They have a recommendation to change the law, the the change applies to everyone.


The liberal mind-set contributes more in the formation of land-of-law, like it did during and after independence. Now it is the role of police and army to implement that law.

Comparing JK with Baluchistan is not only inaccurate, but also escapist in nature. Please do not do that, because it undermines all the first-hand and second-hand knowledge you say you have. I am saying this with utmost respect to your knowledge, experience, and contributions.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by negi »

RayC wrote: NE is no longer that fierce insurgency that it was!

The NE people are encouraged to come to hinterland Indial, edcuate themselves and mix with mainstream India. The effect is showing!
That is because the GOI does not appease the separatists in NE as in J&K; there is no ruling coalition/party in NE which is obsessed with some fancy propaganda of preserving 'Kashmiriyat' ; there is no article 356 in NE nor does it enjoy any special status like the Valley. Lastly but not the least NE does not share border with nicest neighbour on the planet TSP.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

RamaY wrote:
RayC-ji,

I am not advocating mass killings of Kashmiris. What I am advocating is that we should stop treating them as above-rest-of-india. Their culture is as unique and valuable to India as that of Andaman-Nicobar natives. Protect them but do not allow them to blackmail rest of India while living like parasites.


Show them that the law-of-land applies to them the same way it applies to me. If anyone disobeys the law-of-land, there will be severe consequences. They have a recommendation to change the law, the the change applies to everyone.


The liberal mind-set contributes more in the formation of land-of-law, like it did during and after independence. Now it is the role of police and army to implement that law.

Comparing JK with Baluchistan is not only inaccurate, but also escapist in nature. Please do not do that, because it undermines all the first-hand and second-hand knowledge you say you have. I am saying this with utmost respect to your knowledge, experience, and contributions.
Let me assure you that one does not have to mollycoddle anyone and I with you on that.

Once you give everything gratis, they become sponges. I will give you an example. A village Lambardar came to me and said we should give him stores and help to build a new mosque for his village. I said fine and gave him the stores. Cool chap that he was, he wanted my men to construct it for him. I said NO. You co nstruct it and I will give technical advise. If you contruct it with your own hands, you will look after it, but if I do it for you, you will not have that attachment to maintain it. So, nothing gratis, Work for it!

I have no time for the liberal minded or the misguided Human Rights people. Indeed, I say if we are wrong, let them do the job themselves! I had a huge ruckus with the odd woman Mehbooba who tried to order me around. I told her to take a running jump. The silly woman thought I was the police that I will bend backwards. I have never seen such a brain deficit politician and note: I am NOT calling her an Idiot!

I am all for fair play, but beyond that no nonsense!

Fairplay is a must!

it worked for me!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

negi wrote:
RayC wrote: NE is no longer that fierce insurgency that it was!

The NE people are encouraged to come to hinterland Indial, edcuate themselves and mix with mainstream India. The effect is showing!
That is because the GOI does not appease the separatists in NE as in J&K; there is no ruling coalition/party in NE which is obsessed with some fancy propaganda of preserving 'Kashmiriyat' ; there is no article 356 in NE nor does it enjoy any special status like the Valley. Lastly but not the least NE does not share border with nicest neighbour on the planet TSP.

Sadly the GOI does appease!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Arjun »

somnath wrote: Did China say that "lets fix Taiwan" to create a "strong foundation"? and Taiwan is a symbol of a completely different vision of the Chinese nation state, not a local insurgency movement..It didnt, but forged close economic links with it even as it went about doing the other important things..J&K or Pakistan is not Taiwan - we cannot deal with them similarly, but they are not our central grand strategic objective..
You're right that our grand strategic objective should be to ensure a 8 - 10% growth rate over the next 30 years - which would result in an India at a totally different league from most other powers. But just as much as we realize that, other powers do too. Moves by China or Pakistan to bring in discontinuities in the assumed linear growth over the next few years - will center around our primary areas of weaknesses. Kashmir, given its strategic importance, will surely be a key target in case of hostilities. The issue is not just whether we are making progress in Kashmir from a trend-line perspective - but there could be the case for using much higer standards for this region. Are we doing everything to ensure that problems are put to rest, are not likely to recur again and cannot be hoped to be used by outside powers to hold Indian growth hostage?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

RayC wrote: I am offended and damned irritated that one has to give proof to an RSS man for his own activities!! He is wasting my time as if he think it to be here and debating with him and educating him of his own activities a luxury that I can afford!
I apologize if I have offended you. Please accept my apology!

The BJP question was not a relavant topic of the discussion.
I was focused on the comment by another poster. But the term "Chaddiwallah" is still used as a derogatory word.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

Acharya wrote:
RayC wrote: I am offended and damned irritated that one has to give proof to an RSS man for his own activities!! He is wasting my time as if he think it to be here and debating with him and educating him of his own activities a luxury that I can afford!
I apologize if I have offended you. Please accept my apology!

The BJP question was not a relavant topic of the discussion.
I was focused on the comment by another poster. But the term "Chaddiwallah" is still used as a derogatory word.

I am not offended at all. I appreciate the RSS for what they are doing. They are so activists (portrayed by the media) that one gets scared.

Let us look at the good things of the RSS. They make people exercise. Good thing. They teach them of morality etc. Good thing! But then they appear aggressive (blame the media if you wish), they scare!!

I find the RSS and BJP very nationalistic. So am I. But my only regret is that they are unable to carry the whole lot of us with them. I wish they could!!

I am a nationalist and please don't think I have any party affiliation.

My motto is the Army motto - Namak, Nam, Nishan!!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

RayC wrote: But then they appear aggressive (blame the media if you wish), they scare!!
But my only regret is that they are unable to carry the whole lot of us with them. I wish they could!!
My goal is to make Chaddi as a wear which is respectable and also a symbol of being nationalistic favor.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gerard »

negi wrote: there is no article 356 in NE nor does it enjoy any special status like the Valley.
I think you mean article 370.

Article 356 is about Presidential Rule.

As for article 370, note that there are similar articles such as 371a etc
371A. Special provision with respect to the State of Nagaland.- (1) Notwithstanding anything in this Constitution,
(a) no Act of Parliament in respect of
(i) religious or social practices of the Nagas,
(ii) Naga customary law and procedure,
(iii) administration of civil and criminal justice involving decisions according to Naga customary law,
(iv) ownership and transfer of land and its resources,

shall apply to the State of Nagaland unless the Legislative Assembly of Nagaland by a resolution so decides
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by negi »

^regarding 356 Yikes... my bad. :oops:

The art 371A does not come in the way of integration of Nagaland with India; at least there is nothing which prevents a common Indian to go buy a land or settle in Nagaland (even though it is not something many Indians might want to do at this point in time).

From your post the special privileges given to Naga tribe is very similar to the exemptions given to the IM's when it comes to following their customs ...nothing different.

My post was more about the difference in the perceived sensitivity of NE vs J&K; people in NE to be honest have been neglected and their indifference to the rest of India stems from the fact that GOI has done little for the upliftment of the people and development of the region itself. However the situation is different in case of J&K the state receives pretty decent aid from the center every year however it seems the state machinery is not utilizing those funds in the right manner.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RayC »

Acharya wrote:
RayC wrote: But then they appear aggressive (blame the media if you wish), they scare!!
But my only regret is that they are unable to carry the whole lot of us with them. I wish they could!!
My goal is to make Chaddi as a wear which is respectable and also a symbol of being nationalistic favor.
Half pants are not underwears and so if it is indicating underwears, then it is indeed offensive!

There is nothing nationalistic about roaming in underwears!

Damned I will be if you ask me to walk around in underwears only as a mark of nationalism!

I might catch a cold!
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Can we come to a common understanding that dress-codes or dress preferences are not to be subject to ridicule or discussions here? I am forced to say, this is now going into very poor taste. Time and history will decide what is a "nationalistic dress" and what is "underwear". For one illustrious Briton, MKG's preferred dress code was equivalent to being naked in public. Pre-Islamic Indian dress code was also not necessarily a head-to-foot mummification, and a lot of "bare-flesh" flashing was not a social crime. Any of us can feel offended at anyone else's dress - and once such a ball starts rolling, I guess it can get most uncomfortable for both coverers and barers.

Can we get back to J&K only, dropping the "dress" ? :mrgreen:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Four militants, two jawans killed in Kashmir Valley

Srinagar (PTI): Four militants and two Army jawans were killed in two incidents in Kashmir Valley where six youth were arrested for allegedly attempting to exfiltrate to Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir (PoK) for arms training.

Four militants and an Army jawan were killed in a fierce gunbattle in Kupwara district, a defence spokesman said, adding the encounter erupted on Saturday at Bangas valley, 125 km from here, when security forces launched a search operation to flush out hiding militants.

Efforts are on to ascertain the identity and group affiliation of the slain militants, he said.

The militants were believed to be part of a group who sneaked into the valley from across the border through the Tangdhar sector recently.

In another incident, suspected militants shot dead an army jawan outside his house in Shopian district of South Kashmir on Sunday evening, the spokesman said.

Safzar Ahmad Ganai, who had come on leave, was fired from point blank range by unidentified gunmen around 5 pm at Reshi Nagri locality of Shopian, 52 km from here, he said.

On Saturday, militants shot dead a policeman and injured two CRPF personnel in a twin strike in the city.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Pakistan & Kashmir are the footholds of Islamism in the Indian Continent. Islamism has no reason to make peace with India. It is an aggressive ideology, and no amount of business or business as usual is going to pacify the monster. The footholds have to be neutralized.
somnath wrote:Similarly, the Chinese deal with JEI was an example of what they can do to keep their focus on the big picture - similarly I wouldn't expect us to make a deal with LET, or SIMI - but trying to undercut them by doing deals (or more explicitly, talking about "talks) with their sponsors (read Pak) seems like a jolly good idea..the fact is that Pak does not have the capacity to hurt us frontally anymore, they can only hurt us through proxies like LET - weaken the LET and create divides between LET and its sponsors, and you are going somewhere in the tactical imperatives..
We have tried making deals with Pakistan before. We are where we are today, facing a terrorism sponsoring nuclear-power India-hating Islamist country because we only believed in deal-making. There is nothing you can offer, which will satisfy them for an eternity.
somnath wrote:Those who sneer at the "rush for a few more dollars" forget that a lot of our new found influence is a result of our economy....
"Rush for a few dollars more" is to be sneered at and that too with full justification. As noted earlier, no Indian has anything against economic growth, but when the ideology behind "a few dollars more" starts to eat at the principles of our security interests like termites do to a tree, then this ideology has to fought tooth and nail.

It is easy for the ''Bania to twist this complaint to mean that the complainant is against economic progress, and if it was not for them, India will sink. That line of attack is purely BS.

The complaint pertains to an active policy of the 'Bania' to subvert the national interest in the name of economic progress. That is the "rush for a few dollars more". As long as economic progress takes place within the parameters of national interest, there is no complaint.
somnath wrote:Coercive power is not built up through "actions", they need to be built up through capabilities - economic and military..
Coercive power is built up through actions and actions alone. Call it the nation's psychological capacity. Only actions gives you training. Only a history of actions give the adversary a reason to pause and think. This is the most common way a human or a nation gathers experience and learns from it. It is only when a child has learned how to take the little steps, that it is confident of running. How is a nation going to have the psychological capacity to stand the bullying of a bigger power if it has become too timid to deal with smaller bullies in an appropriate manner, using coercive power.

But the Bania would talk a nation out of this, because any little conflict could send the stock market down, the financial investors could become edgy. That would turn his apple cart. So it remains in the best interest of the Bania to keep the political elite completely cowardly, so that they do not come to any idea of retaliation, lest he stops making "a few dollars more". The 'Bania' is the termite eating away at the psychological strength of the nation.

But he is clever. He keeps on saying, that this weakness can be replaced through economic progress and pushes through a lot of feel good sound bites through the media. He keeps on telling we are soooperpower.

This has to end. A nation needs to learn how to use coercive power, and it can do it by undertaking small baby steps. Never do a deal that lets a bully get away with it.
somnath wrote:People can dream all that they can about PoK or for that matter concepts of Akhand Bharat..Fact is that I would not want millions of (primarily Jihadi) Muslims inside India...but more importantly, if it happens, it will be as a consequence of a series of events that would catapult India even higher and Pak even lower to the respective datum levels..
Not because it becomes "the objective" for us...
Go check out the Balwaristanis, and then let us know how Jihadi they are.

Capture of PoK breaks Chinese direct access to Pakistan, making Pakistani market captive to Indian products. Also Central Asian markets would become accessible and hospitable to Indian industry. This is just as much economic as it is strategic. How do you propose to compete with China when they have direct access and a free run in Central Asia, while India is caged. Strategic gains opens up economic space and opportunities.
Last edited by RajeshA on 03 Aug 2009 03:25, edited 2 times in total.
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