India-China News and Discussion

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Oct 2009 00:37

India, China will continue talks to resolve differences

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Oct 2009 03:02

D Roy wrote: We should continue to hammer the established (researched) facts home to counter the bullshit being propounded by our enemies.

But when Indians intelligentsia is itself in such a situation where that effort is immediately called "saffron chaddiwala's reinventing history" and any requests of public debate or discussions are branded "sush, why for? We have leaders, trust them they decide" and if you persist "whining and breast beating"

India's got a long way to go before we have the capability of GoI being able to match PRC in the psy-ops game, with help of truth or otherwise.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 17 Oct 2009 05:01

all that is changing as the election results from WB come in.

Jhollawallahs as they are called here are looking for a new master. Some are running away to Canada and the others to the Kangress. And the latter is now beginning to take PRC's bullshit seriously.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Oct 2009 05:19

tejas wrote:The disease of antinationalism seems to be a peculiar afflliction endemic only among Indian commies. Do you see Chinese communist party meetings held under pictures of Stalin?

Do the Indian communists really understand what they stand for

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 17 Oct 2009 05:42

Acharya wrote: Do the Indian communists really understand what they stand for

You mean they can stand AND think?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Oct 2009 07:33

Sichuan province HQed at Chengdu seems to be the 'heart' of the dragon. imagine a state with the population resources of bihar, minerals of jharkhand, soil fertility of WB/assam/coastal andhra, productivity of punj/haryana - thats Sichuan for 1000s of years the rice bowl and population core. any of the empires who owned it - be it Qin or Han had access to its boundless resources and could expand relentlessly. to the east, hebei province has the 3 gorges dam.

in any cagefight with the panda, this place has to be a prime target - chengdu and chongqing
among others. it is within IAF range from NE. unlike knocking over something in Xinjiang or Tibet,
a hit on Sichuan will be a heavy H&D impact. Yunnan province to the south is a non-Han/non-core
state, one has to overfly it to reach the coastal regions.

the policy of flooding new 'settlers' into conquered or border regions - coerced farmers, slaves, penal convicts, forced labour has been going on in china since ancient times. tibet and xinjiang
being overrun with 'han' is just the latest episode.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Oct 2009 08:11

Kindly do not refer to our traitor gangs as 'communists'...they have completely lost faith in communism as can be seen by their begging capitalist satans including overseas ones, for investment and raping their own citizens to clear land for them. You might call them Stalinist mass murderers, rapist goons, traitors and so on...but not communists. The poor ones that really believe in this violent ideology are the eye-gouging Maoists who will also give up on it where they come to power, like their Nepali cousins almost did. Which is why the eye gougers are having troubles with the mass murderers.

Drinking the ideological sewage flushed out by their paymasters is the favorite pastime of our mass murderers which is why they hang pictures of overseas despots and mass murderers in their gatherings. It is also convenient way to keep India perpetually poor and enslaved to their paymasters.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Oct 2009 08:25

When there are lies to be told, facts suppressed and truths concealed, the yellow media has 'sources' who of course, will be anonymous. Now it is India trying to 'lower temperature' as if it created the problem in the first place...the PRc dumping of poisonous and low quality crap and running up huge trade surpluses is now being projected as 'positive' trend...positive yes, for their masters.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Oct 2009 15:54

It appears that the dragon has "blinked" first.The Chinese "request",now the word used is "request',not "demand",that the PMs of India and China meet at the ASEAN summit is an indicator that the Chinese bayonet pushed into the diplomatically obese flesh and frame of India has finally found some hard steel.India's demand that the PRC stop all work in POK and other stern language used by us,has made the Chinese check themselves for the moment.The Chiinese will now try to blow cold after blowing hot.This is a sinister attempt by them to try and get our dear PM,MMS to stop the dalai lama from visiting AP.This has been the key ruse by China in this spat.It wants to prevent at any cost the Dalai Lama from visiting AP,continuing to inspire the Tibetan people from his refuge in India.India must not fall for this apparent sudden turn around from China.It has all been planned meticulously and we are at stage- 2 in China's gameplan.

If the PM has seen through the Chinese gameplan,he will NOT meet the Chinese premier at the summit.The Chinese must understand that India and our PM have been sorely insulted by the Chinees with the manner and tone of the language used by their official spokesmen and the manner in which our citizens from J&K were given "chit" visas.The PM should not meet his Chinese counterpart until the chit visasa are stopped and China unequivocally recognises India's sovereignity over AP and restores genuine autonomy to Tibet as promised 50+ years ago.

If China remains troublesome and unyeilding,here is what we should do.

1.Recognise the Tibetan diaspora and the Dalai Lama as a legitimate independent nation by allowing them an Embassy or Consulate at least in the capital.

2.Give (temp) Indian passports to all Tibetan refugees,making them and by default Tibet an Indian protectorate.

3.Send a high-powered team of MPs and babus to Taiwan for seeking permission to open a consulate there and allow the Taiwanese to set up a Consulate here.We can brush off the inevitable screeching from the Middle Kingdom monkeys by saying that in the fullness of time,the PRC and democratic Taiwan might in the fullness of time,draw much closer officially and in any case a foreign consulate would be sorely needed when that happens.

4.Initiate defence cooperation between India and Taiwan,Japan,Vietnam,S.Korea and some of the ASEAN states,selling defence eqpt. like Prithvi,Akash,and B'Mos (where possible) missiles.Sign defence agreements whereby India can obtain base facilities for its navy and air force where possible,with an explicit task to monitor and in a crisis "deal with" the military froces of the PRC.

5.Increase India's official defence budget to at least 4% of its GDP and finalising asap urgent decisions pending for the modernisation,replacement and augmenting of the Indian armed forces.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 17 Oct 2009 17:08

Philip, like I said, PRC would do some back pedalling, not because it found steel or concrete but because it wants its army of rats here to keep some face and resume pro-PRC propaganda that has gone quiet. It also wants them to regain hold on power so they can squeeze GOI's b..s more effectively.

I think meddling with Taiwan at current stage is counter productive because firstly Taiwan has pro-PRC regime, secondly the economic linkages are too strong for us to overcome. Their economies are practically one and hard to delink without enormous costs mainly to Taiwan. This will always pour cold water. It will also lead to 'we are chinese let us unite against 'yeevil yindoos' talk which we would want to avoid. With our loose / foul mouthed politicians and idiot babus and third rate media it is very easy to let a anti-PRC campaign degenerate into a anti-Chinese (race) campaign which can only make us look like fools.

I do agree that we should engage Taiwan quietly by stepping up official contacts, and see how much PRC commies (and their mass murderer puppets here) holler. We should certainly be much more tougher re Tibet and Dalai Lama. PRC should be told in no uncertain terms that if it think it can solve the problem by simply waiting for him to die, it is living in fools paradise and we can make matters worse for them because India is not going to die that soon.

We have to constantly give an impression that we are friends with Chinese people, we consider communist dictatorship an evil that is the main problem and despite that we dont care as long as PRC respects our sensitivities as much as we do with them. This will endear us not just to Taiwan but also to many moderate Chinese and overseas Chinese who wield enormous influence. I would say that is also the right genuine course, not just the face we should put up.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 18 Oct 2009 00:38

The Dragon spews fire at the Elephant

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 18 Oct 2009 05:01

VinodTK wrote:The Dragon spews fire at the Elephant

This news article was a garbage and was written by someone who has no self respect. This kind of news article should never be posted without proper rebuttal. (My humble opinion.)

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 18 Oct 2009 06:38

Isn't MK Bhadrakumar known for his China leaning views. That's why he says People's daily "tore into India's policies" or something like that.

Does India have to take lessons in policy making from People's daily. Maybe MKB thinks so. I think he is pained by India being friendly to US.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 18 Oct 2009 07:01

He is right about one thing though...PRC is exploiting the anti-India feelings amongst our neighbours, some of it genuine and most of it because we are uniquely blessed with fanatic barbarian terrorists with 'green flag on red fort' ambitions as neighbours.

Moreover, the current status is the creation of our brilliant and strategically far thinking babus, some of whom have retired and have openly begun articulating their points of view of mass murderer / rapist goon patrons whose agendas they surreptitiously implemented while in power...

What he neglects to mention is that his bosses' track record is even worse. PRC is hated not just in the neigbhourhood, even globally. The way to counter that is to work with PRCs own neighbours to leverage that. Japan, Korea, Vietnam, even Russia have strong anti-PRC sentiments somewhat tempered or regulated by commercial interests.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Oct 2009 10:52

NE terrorists get arms from China - Video Link
http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4329890.cms

The army says militant groups operating out of North East India are sourcing weapons from Chinese territory. GoC of Nagaland, Lt Gen N K Singh has said that gun-running in the Northeast is a clandestine trade that involves the South Western Chinese Province of Yunnan as well, adding that militants from Northeast have been making trips to Yunnan for arms procurement.

koti · Post by **koti** » 18 Oct 2009 13:35

This is the way one is supposed to respond.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 134599.cms

Why on earth will a government issue an explanation if the PM visited one of its states that is for the past 60 years.

Arihant · Post by **Arihant** » 18 Oct 2009 13:45

csharma wrote:Isn't MK Bhadrakumar known for his China leaning views. That's why he says People's daily "tore into India's policies" or something like that.

Does India have to take lessons in policy making from People's daily. Maybe MKB thinks so. I think he is pained by India being friendly to US.

I watched Bhadrakumar yesterday on BBC in a debate televised from the Sydney Opera House on the motion: "Democracy is not for everyone". He came across as an average speaker, but more worryingly, spoke for the motion and said things along the lines of "liberal democracy only works if you are part of the western world". During the Q and A portion, there was a question that was mainly laudatory of India's democratic acheivements, but he responded with what seemed to be comments downplaying these achievements. His side of the debate lost big time (based on an audience poll). The Director of the Lowy Institute (which I believe is an Australian think tank) made a very articulate case against the motion that included some hard-hitting remarks against China's brutal regime.

Along the lines of what I was saying earlier on this forum, one cannot imagine a retired Chinese diplomat going around peddling a less-than-laudatory message re China.

Arihant · Post by **Arihant** » 18 Oct 2009 14:06

Philip wrote:
If China remains troublesome and unyeilding,here is what we should do.

1.Recognise the Tibetan diaspora and the Dalai Lama as a legitimate independent nation by allowing them an Embassy or Consulate at least in the capital.

2.Give (temp) Indian passports to all Tibetan refugees,making them and by default Tibet an Indian protectorate.

3.Send a high-powered team of MPs and babus to Taiwan for seeking permission to open a consulate there and allow the Taiwanese to set up a Consulate here.We can brush off the inevitable screeching from the Middle Kingdom monkeys by saying that in the fullness of time,the PRC and democratic Taiwan might in the fullness of time,draw much closer officially and in any case a foreign consulate would be sorely needed when that happens.

4.Initiate defence cooperation between India and Taiwan,Japan,Vietnam,S.Korea and some of the ASEAN states,selling defence eqpt. like Prithvi,Akash,and B'Mos (where possible) missiles.Sign defence agreements whereby India can obtain base facilities for its navy and air force where possible,with an explicit task to monitor and in a crisis "deal with" the military froces of the PRC.

5.Increase India's official defence budget to at least 4% of its GDP and finalising asap urgent decisions pending for the modernisation,replacement and augmenting of the Indian armed forces.

Worthwhile suggestions. With Taiwan, the gameplan should be one of slow incremental steps (gradual upgrading of the status of the unofficial Indian consulate in Taipei and of the unofficial Taiwanese consulate in New Delhi, greater links with the Taiwanese military etc.). As I keep saying on this forum, we sould not discount the viability of the very large pro-Independence constituency in Taiwan.

Business links are another major opportunity. They are growing, but hampered by language barriers and misconceptions (Taiwanese can get by in English, but barely, and India still enjoys a "Third World cesspool" image in many quarters). Something that is often overlooked is the (unlikely) similarity in cultural and social underpinnings. In my many visits to Taiwan, I have always been struck by how similar cultural and religious practices are. Even more interesting is the occasional bit of explicit Hinduism that one finds in Taiwanese Buddhist temples. A common deity in Taiwanese temples is Kuan Yin (a version of Boddhisatva Avalokiteshvara Padmapani), but the idols are often very similar to Durga (a thousand hands, the ten in the foreground carrying weapons), and in some places, referred to as "Chandi Kuan Yin".

The previous government in Taiwan had an explicit agenda to divert Taiwanese investment away from China towards India, and had established a Taiwan-India Cooperation Council

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Oct 2009 18:19

OK baba Al Badr kumar is a has-been, a nobody like the aam jingo here, a sellout at most. Big deal. But how come this sudden fawning media attn on his every utterance and written farticle? That to moi is the more interesting question.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 18 Oct 2009 18:22

Announcing this on Thursday, Takam Sanjoy, Lok Sabha member from Arunachal West, told reporters that the mood in the state was decisively anti-Chinese in the wake of Beijing's protests over Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's recent visit to the state.

"Historically, culturally Arunachal Pradesh has never had any affinity to China," he said. "There is not a single soul over there who has any sympathy for China and I can vouch for that."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 128429.cms

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 18 Oct 2009 19:26

China to relocate 330,000 people for massive water diversion project

BEIJING: China on Sunday unveiled a giant plan to relocate a vast population to make way for the south-north water diversion project. It is this
project, which has caused concern with some experts saying it might affect the flow of Brahmaputra in Assam.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 136704.cms

India has only one option now. Time to tell that Tibet is the disputed region, not AP, Bhutan, Sikkim, Aksai. Time to make direct claims on Kailash and Mansarover on the basis of being Hinduisms holiest spots. Thats also where the origins of the Brahmaputra lie.

This is the only option left as not doing this might tempt left liberal Governments in the future to compromise on Tawang, Sikkim, Bhutan behind scenes while being blackmailed by the Chinese on the diversion project.

Simply put India has *no* options left but to raise the Tibet issue with China. India must quietly discuss this with Western Governments that are pro Tibetan. Junior ministers must give out statements where they are 'examining Chinese claims over Tibet, Kailash, Mansarover etc' giving jitters to the Chinese establishment. And in talks we should start hinting at China dropping the Brahmaputra diversion process or else we bring Tibet up..

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 18 Oct 2009 19:31

It seems tareel then mountain friends were making noise in east to divert Yendian attention from diluted presense of Bakistanis on our western borders. Bakis were planning mother of all battle in Waziristan. Baki's are not sure they will come back from there sahi salamat. Bakis's are dead sure that with Mumbai type attack ........................they might bget a zhapad from east when they are being washed up in Waziristan. But Chinis over did its Arunachal bak bak............ended up waking up sleepy attitude of Raksha Mantralay. China lost in her own game. Arunachal has a tourist boom........................every SDRE type want to reality first hand. Twang is running out of hotel rooms. Arunachal had never had it before. Now Chini want to calm down and Gilani advised them to talk to MMS one to one and they may pull out some face saving a la Sham whatever. Attack on Iranian elite forces in area near to Baluchistan surprises me.............some body wants Iran to put Army on alert on her eastern border..............but why?

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 18 Oct 2009 20:47

Tibet is an autonomous region, which means it has right to have its own currency, trade policies, foreign relations, etc. This is what India agreed to during Nehru era. However, if Chinese fail to honor their end of the agreement then there is no point in Indians honoring their end of the agreement.

In order for peace process to work between India and China, the latter has to pull its armed forces out of Tibet and handover the control of Tibet to Tibetans. It is that simple but China has never been interested in peace and justice. It is a country which has killed millions of Chinese and Tibetans in cold blood.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Oct 2009 22:32

a collection of chinese propaganda posters over the past decades. I intend to paint a couple of them myself and hang it in my home for decoration.

http://www.iisg.nl/landsberger/

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 19 Oct 2009 01:16

interesting...what is this supposed to mean....black, arab with gun? and the middle guy is a Chinese commie holding red flag and 'uniting/liberating' them against the authority guy with missile(US or Russia)...what's that symbol on his hat...

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Oct 2009 01:48

How to end this discordance - Chindu editorial

Message from their chinese masters, stop support to Dalai Lama's govt in exile, and we will stop protesting publicly( not giving up claim though) about Arunachal Pradesh.

...
Thus China needs to avoid airing public protests over the happenings, including prime ministerial visits, in the State of Arunachal Pradesh just as India needs to do more to restrain the anti-China political activities of the so-called ‘Tibetan-government-in-exile’ on Indian soil. The best way to do this is to forge a high-level political agreement — on the model of the Deng-Rajiv accord of December 1988 — that ensures that a sense of balance, sobriety, and tranquillity are maintained in the public posturing on boundary claims in keeping with the maturation and potential of the bilateral relationship. This Prime Ministers Manmohan Singh and Wen Jiabao should certainly do when they meet on the sidelines of the October 23 Asean Summit in Thailand.

....

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 19 Oct 2009 02:01

B Raman on the Hindu's newspaper and China.

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... hindu.html

Normally, I do not pay serious attention to reports and articles on China carried by "The Hindu" of Chennai. Its sympathy for China and its policy in recent years of keeping out of its columns any report or article of a negative nature on China is well known. Equally well known is its policy of placing its columns at the disposal of the Xinhua news agency of China, which is owned by the Government of China, without telling its readers that the Xinhua is a mouthpiece of the Chinese government. It generally tries to create an impression in the minds of its
readers that India has no reason to worry about China.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 19 Oct 2009 02:24

Thus China needs to avoid airing public protests over the happenings, including prime ministerial visits, in the State of Arunachal Pradesh just as India needs to do more to restrain the anti-China political activities of the so-called ‘Tibetan-government-in-exile’ on Indian soil. The best way to do this is to forge a high-level political agreement — on the model of the Deng-Rajiv accord of December 1988 — that ensures that a sense of balance, sobriety, and tranquillity are maintained in the public posturing on boundary claims in keeping with the maturation and potential of the bilateral relationship. This Prime Ministers Manmohan Singh and Wen Jiabao should certainly do when they meet on the sidelines of the October 23 Asean Summit in Thailand.

wrt the above editorial by Chindu, i mentioned last post that it has become imperative this not be taken as the point of negotiation. The battle has to be now drawn on Tibet itself. Specially so since the Brahmputra issue is also going to become extremely significant. Fact is India now has no chance but to say that if China persists with diverting the Brahmputra, India has to stake it's rightful claim to Kailash, Mansarover, and Tibets' independence.

There is no other choice left for India. China must be told so, even if through intermediaries in friendly Western nations..if India does'nt have the balls to do so itself. But the important point is India has no other choice, but to carry the dispute now to Tibet itself. This is the turning point IMHO.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 19 Oct 2009 02:37

Vajpayee when he was the PM had correctly eluded to the fact that the future wars for India will be water wars.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 19 Oct 2009 02:56

Gus wrote: interesting...what is this supposed to mean....black, arab with gun? and the middle guy is a Chinese commie holding red flag and 'uniting/liberating' them against the authority guy with missile(US or Russia)...what's that symbol on his hat...

"The large figures represent Latin America, Asia and Africa: the three continents that should liberate themselves from Western Imperialism."

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 19 Oct 2009 03:03

interesting...what is this supposed to mean....

The Chinese script below the poster means " Awaken people, you will certainly attain the ultimate victory."

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 19 Oct 2009 03:15

On the international front, Obama may not win the WH for a second term. The improvement in the economy along with the latent prejudices of the Americans will ensure he does not win. In the next elections by 2012, a new republican government may come to power...all the more reason for China to drive home it's advantage with the present admin in WH.

As has been discussed many times here, he is more prone to take a neutral position on Arunachal.

Delivery of the new block-52 F16s to Pakistan should be delayed as much as possible.

Bharat Verma's article makes sense more you think about it.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 19 Oct 2009 03:27

Bharat Verma wrote that piece long before all the China stuff broke in the media. At that time it looked a bit far fetched but the events of the last couple of months show that Bharat Verma was not off base.

The other point is that shouldn't India be capable of keeping Arunachal on its own. Why is American support so important?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 19 Oct 2009 03:42

Favorable international climate is very important for PRC to undertake any action against India. The cuban missile crisis of 1962 provided the perfect cover for Mao to humiliate India when USSR and US were embroiled in the crisis.

They decided against expanding the the Sumudrumong Chu episode into a major incident due to the international attention for Tianman massacare. They had moved formations along the Qinghai highway in anticipation of border action in 1987-89 period.

A republic president will look upon any PRC misadventure less favourably than Obama who owes many IOUs for the help he is getting in managing the wall street meltdown. PRC is also more networked with the global economy now.

Hence the necessity for them to get this going before 2012.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 19 Oct 2009 08:10

I see your point. But implicit is the assumption that China will somehow have the upper hand in the engagement and hence all it has to do is manage the international fallout. While that's what some of the over enthusiastic PLA generals might think, the outcome of the conflict might be unpredictable.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Oct 2009 09:42

China to relocate 330,000 people for massive water diversion project

China on Sunday unveiled a giant plan to relocate a vast population to make way for the south-north water diversion project. It is this project, which has caused concern with some experts saying it might affect the flow of Brahmaputra in Assam. The Indian government has said it will try to find out if Chinese authoriites are building a dam in Tibet as part of the project, which would cause serious harm to the Brahmaputra.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Oct 2009 09:49

Talk about Chinese plans to divert the flow of Brahmaputra are not new , here some old articles by Brahma Chellaney.

China-India Clash Over Chinese Claims to Tibetan Water

Original piece

China aims for bigger share of South Asia's water lifeline

As a uniformed bystander I sometimes wonder while TSP

and wails in front of the UN and the whole world about India violating the IWT despite being provided with all the necessary data on water sharing specially when no river has actually been diverted ; I am yet to see GOI take this matter up in relevant circles.

Or may be GOI has some Chanakyan way to address the issue.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 19 Oct 2009 11:06

negi wrote:China to relocate 330,000 people for massive water diversion project

China on Sunday unveiled a giant plan to relocate a vast population to make way for the south-north water diversion project. It is this project, which has caused concern with some experts saying it might affect the flow of Brahmaputra in Assam. The Indian government has said it will try to find out if Chinese authoriites are building a dam in Tibet as part of the project, which would cause serious harm to the Brahmaputra.

A look at the map of Brahmaputra shows why is very difficult for the Chinese to alter it's flow or worse still reduce the flow by building a vast dam with massive holding capacity. While the river flows through mainly one Indian state (Assam) and a very small portion of Arunachal it goes on into Bangladesh and traverses it's entire North - South geography and future splits into 2 , one of which is the Jamuna (main agricultural source).

I doubt they'll take the risk of indirectly hurting B'desh that badly while only causing limited damage to India , besides the Brahmaputra is a source of massive flooding in Kaziranga (one which I've unfortunately been witness to)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Oct 2009 11:54

It's good to see B.Raman make his voice known on the Chindu's pro-China stance.The paper which moe often than not has some excellent reports and features,has one huge blind spot-China,which appears to be the political Mecca of its current editor,Mr.Ram.I once had a conversation with him about Pak's nukes and etch. being obtained from China.He tried to argue that it was obtained form elsewhere.facts since then have revealed the Sino-Pak nexus in great detail.

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 19 Oct 2009 13:19

Geo-Strategic Chessboard: War Between India and China?

by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7453