Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 13:54

Riots have started occurring in many places
Daily Times consider the riots serious enough to warrant an Editorial warning the Government of dire consequences.

The spontaneous protests by youths in Bhara Kahu, which spread to Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Faizabad, ought to serve as a harsh reminder to the government . . . Essentially a youth rebellion against the transport authorities hiking up fares by a whopping 40 percent . . .

However, as events portray, it is the Pakistani people who are pushed into a corner by executive decisions and an out of control police force, forcing them to ultimately rise against the injustices perpetrated upon them.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 14:05

Dilemmas of counter terrorism

The Taliban are just one dimension of the increasingly complex terrorism problem. Even if the Taliban were weakened in the tribal areas, the settled areas-based militancy, especially the Punjab-based militant groups, would continue to challenge the state. {They will challenge the State for three reasons: one, demanding the implementation of their version of shariah two, demanding a full-fledged jihad against India officially sponsored by the State of Pakistan and three, demanding severance of ties with the US} They will find new recruits for their causes and pursue their narrow, bigoted and uni-focal religious and political agendas.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 21 Mar 2010 14:19

Raja Ram wrote:If there is a thread consensus, nay even a forum consensus, on what "inner pakistani" means as defined by anupmisra, that is one consensus that I will happily champion about....

JEM
quite true quite true

A Google search of "inner pakistani" places this thread (4) over the original Chindu article (5) in the search results.

The BRF (anupmisra) version of inner pakistani should be made a trending topic on Twitter and Facebook.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 14:21

Quetta bombed

At least three people were killed and several others injured in a blast on Quwari Road of Quetta, Geo News reported Sunday.

According to police sources, a police vehicle was targeted in the blast; the vehicle was completely destroyed in the blast. The blast hit the vehicle of DPO Khuzdar Nazir Kurd.

The blast occurred in a residential area near the residence of Mehmood Khan Achakzai, leader of Pakhtunkhwa Milli Awami Party.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 14:26

Airavat wrote: A Google search of "inner pakistani" places this thread (4) over the original Chindu article (5) in the search results.

The BRF (anupmisra) version of inner pakistani should be made a trending topic on Twitter and Facebook.

Acorn on The Hindu article:

http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2010/0 ... -pakistan/

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:42

Bollywood’s ‘Lahore’ banned in Pakistan[/i][/i]

"'Lahore' is not a typical Bollywood commercial film. It's not a Pakistan bashing film. It is a very different and balanced project with no negativity or biases against any country. We were very keen that it releases there (in Pakistan), but now we are disappointed," Chauhan told IANS.

The director says he has not yet given a thought to tweaking the particular scenes to suit the tastes of the Pakistan censor board.

"We were told that the authorities aren't pleased with certain portions of the movie. But every film has certain tones without which it will lose its essence."

‘Lahore’ has been shot in Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Lonavala, Malaysia and at Lahore.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:43

Kareena Kapoor

She is also the latest Bollywood beauty to have caught the imagination of the people here as she stares out of hundreds of billboards in the city of Karachi.

Firdous lawns , one of Pakistan’s leading textile manufacturers said it paid the actress around 30 million rupees to feature in their advertisement.

“There is nothing illegal about it. We made her an offer for the campaign and she liked the idea of advertising
for a Pakistani company and she came down to Dubai for the shoots,” a spokesman of the company said.

The billboards show the 27-year-old actress sporting dozens of different designs of the new lawn fabric of the company.

The company said that it opted to advertise their products with the Indian actress as she was a popular figure in Pakistan.

“She is like a breath of fresh air to Pakistan’s advertising agency,” the chief executive of a leading advertising agency, Prestige communications told a news agency.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:46

‘Basant Show’ tonight on Geo TV

KARACHI: It’s time to celebrate the arrival of spring in all its glory. And what better way to do it than by enjoying one of Pakistan’s most vibrant cultural traditions, Basant. The show, to be held in Dubai, is a part of the peace campaign ‘Aman ki Asha’ initiated by the Jang Group and the Times of India to promote peace between Pakistan and India. The show will include performers from both sides of the border, including Hadiqa Kiyani, Amanat Ali and Shiraz Uppal from Pakistan and Tooshi and Sharab from India. Another special treat for viewers will be a fashion show, which will showcase collections from both Indian and Pakistani designers. Geo TV brings this show on mini screen tonight at 9:00 pm.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:48

20 wounded in Machh Jail violence

MACHH (APP) - At least 20 inmates were wounded, some of them seriously, in a clash between two groups of prisoners over the use of drugs in Machh Central Jail on Saturday evening.
According to the jail officials, the fight erupted when a group attacked one of the members of a rival group over narcotics, although the prisoners had pledged not to use any such item within the prison. The attack triggered a clash between the two groups, which resulted in injuries to 20 inmates, as they went on a rampage and ransacked the barracks.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:52

Marriages of 200 non-EU men under investigation

By MAEVE SHEEHAN

Sunday March 21 2010

GARDAI suspect bogus companies are being set up to provide fake employment credentials for eastern European women who are brought to Ireland to take part in arranged marriages. A number of companies are under investigation after gardai came across them during an operation aimed at clamping down on arranged marriages.

More than 200 marriages between non-European men and eastern European women are being investigated by the Garda National Immigration Bureau. Marriages of convenience are not illegal. Gardai, often acting on a tip-off, investigate those involved for bigamy, on immigration issues and also whether the bride has been employed in the country for the required period as set out in the EU Treaty.

A number of non-European men have also been arrested for bigamy.

A 27-year-old Pakistani man was convicted earlier this year of having two false passports, which were discovered shortly before he was to marry a Latvian woman.

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern said last month that at least 480 marriage applications for residency were made by men from Pakistan who had married Latvian, Polish and Estonian women.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:57

Made in Pakistan

I said to myself as I wistfully looked out of the window of my airplane and saw a parked Boeing 747 with the letters “India” written boldly across the fuselage.

No one from Pakistan was there. “Well my sister lives in Karachi,” was the closest I got to hear on Pakistan from another Indian billionaire Azim Premji.

What we can sell to the West is our natural beauty. Driving on the brand new road along the shore near Seaview in Karachi, a fellow passenger comments, “Our country is so beautiful; we have everything that the heart would crave and it’s for this reason our neighbours and others want a piece of it,” she says spontaneously looking seaward at the setting sun. “We must guard every inch of our land.”

Recently a Pakistani-American went to get a visa to visit Pakistan. “It was a torture. There was just one man sitting behind the window and he was beginning to lose it because the crowd was getting unruly…no queues, no order. It was free for all. The attitude of the staff was obnoxious. It’s a double whammy for us: we get sorted out by the Americans when we exit or enter the US and we get sorted out by our own Pakistani officials at the consulate.”

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 14:59

De facto versus de jure

A rather nasty conspiracy theory doing the rounds is that the quickest way to bring Pakistan to its knees, literally, was to appoint the present president. Time will tell on that one, but as long as the army reigns supreme, de facto, as opposed to the supremacy of parliament, existence as we know it will carry on.

The army has for long been on top of it all, even prior to 1958. Pakistan’s first military attaché went to Washington in 1952.

He received instructions from the then commander-in-chief Gen Ayub Khan and defence secretary Iskander Mirza that his main task was to procure military equipment from the Pentagon and that there was no need to take on board either ambassador or foreign office as “these civilians cannot be trusted with such sensitive matters of national security”. Ayub Khan was appointed defence minister in a civilian government in 1954.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 15:05

Under Panetta, a more aggressive CIA

By Peter Finn and Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 21, 2010; A01

The plan was a standard one in the CIA's war against extremists in Pakistan: The agency was using a Predator drone to monitor a residential compound; a Taliban leader was expected to arrive shortly; a CIA missile would kill him.

On the morning of Aug. 5, CIA Director Leon Panetta was informed that Baitullah Mehsud was about to reach his father-in-law's home. Mehsud would be in the open, minimizing the risk that civilians would be injured or killed. Panetta authorized the strike, according to a senior intelligence official who described the sequence of events.

Drone strikes scrutinized

At the end of the George W. Bush administration, the CIA could keep seven Predators in the air round-the-clock, but the number will double by the end of this year, according to the senior intelligence official. Like other current and former officials interviewed for this report, this source spoke on the condition of anonymity because the agency does not acknowledge its actions in Pakistan.

Since 2009, as many as 666 terrorism suspects, including at least 20 senior figures, have been killed by missiles fired from unmanned aircraft flying over Pakistan, according to figures compiled by the New America Foundation as of mid-March. From 2004 to 2008, the number was 230. According to the foundation, 177 civilians may also have been killed in the airstrikes since 2009. Intelligence officials say their count of noncombatants killed is much lower and noted that on Aug. 5 only Mehsud and his wife were killed, despite reports that other family members and bodyguards died in the attack.

On Feb. 3, at a snow-blanketed Arlington National Cemetery, Panetta attended the funeral of the base chief, a 45-year-old mother of three. Just before the playing of taps, he handed a folded American flag to the family and later watched one of the woman's young sons carry it away from the grave.

As Panetta took his seat in his car after the service, an aide said, he exhaled deeply.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 15:15

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Acorn on The Hindu article:
http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2010/0 ... -pakistan/

Watch Nirupama's interview:

Best examples of == ever.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Mar 2010 15:27

Religious Minority in Pakistan:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... a-mice-130

Some days ago, while waiting in my car for a traffic signal to turn green, a young kid nonchalantly stuck a flyer under one of the car’s wipers. Usually I throw away such pieces of paper, but this time I decided to take a look at it. It was a flyer advertising a Montessori school called ‘Model Islamic Montessori.’
...

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Mar 2010 15:39

abhishek_sharma wrote:Religious Minority in Pakistan:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... a-mice-130

Some days ago, while waiting in my car for a traffic signal to turn green, a young kid nonchalantly stuck a flyer under one of the car’s wipers. Usually I throw away such pieces of paper, but this time I decided to take a look at it. It was a flyer advertising a Montessori school called ‘Model Islamic Montessori.’
...

This is brilliant. The end especially, did not see that coming and it was absolutely brilliant.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Mar 2010 17:26

abhishek_sharma wrote:Religious Minority in Pakistan:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... a-mice-130

Really a fine piece that. But, I doubt if the conversations were imaginary because he was almost committing blasphemy there. After all, Pakistan is absolutely the ideological frontline for Islam and citizens have to tread the minefield carefully.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Mar 2010 18:03

CRamS

>>Its not a question of begging US respect; although given that Americans dominate every sphere of human endeavour (both good and bad) and that too by a huge margin, being endowed with their respect is not all that bad .

I did not use the word begging. My question was why, even in the way most separated from begging, we would need US “respect”? The fact that the US dominates in every sphere of endeavour (debatable) does not answer the question. That is simply another characteristic of the preponderant power of the US. How does respect differ from the way in which the US is engaging with us now, and why do we need it? My personal feeling is that we do not need US respect, we need its business. I do not mind what and how the Americans think of us and act towards us, provided we take care of our interests. I sense that all this talk of not getting “respect” is a roundabout way of saying that our interests are not being furthered by the state.

>>But I guess what Raja Ram and others like me are saying is that US will take the path of least resistence in securing its interests.

I don’t know if this is what RR is saying, but as a general principle if that is what the US is doing, then it would be the right thing to do. Shouldn’t India too take the path of least resistance (in this contextual meaning) in securing its interest? And what’s to say it isn’t doing so now?

>>Now, we have a govt in India that has mortgaged India's dealing with TSP to US.

A valid opinion. But I don’t share it.

>>Here is the simple equation. US has interests in "South Asia". India is the status quo power. TSP wants to change the status quo.

Agreed.

>>So when India tells US that TSP is using terror, US says sure we'll talk to Pakis, but you keep your end of the bargain and change the status quo in TSP's favor.

If by US, you mean GOTUS, is there any evidence of this demand, i.e. “change the status quo in TSP’s favour”? As far as GoI is concerned, demands or entreaties from no other entity in the US will be entertained (formally, I might add, to complicate the situation further). To me it appears to be your reading of the situation which, while valid, is only (ultimately) a valuable and necessary opinion.

>>Thus, India has to define this status quop clearly and put some muscle behind it, US will respect it.

Why do you think that India has not clearly defined its interests to the US? One sly joke a relative recently told me was that sometimes US government functionaries dealing with us have a better and more robust perception of our interests than chaps on our side (he was referring to journalists). We (on BRF I mean) often take the opinions and claims and too-clever-by-half insinuations of journalists and treat them as fact, primarily under the assumption that they somehow know better. But it is good to keep in mind that as far as state policy is concerned, journalists only know what they are explicitly told. Rest is conjecture, maybe informed conjecture, but conjecture nevertheless. And let’s not lose sight of the fact that our journalists are as venal and crooked as our politicians supposedly are, and the general Indian supposedly is – so they may be amenable to a greased palm too. Having said that, it is unlikely in the extreme that we will make a public hue and cry about our interests and suggest we would be prepared to “put some muscle behind it” in order to get something as worthless as American respect.

>>And this means a clear cut (no aman ki asha and willing to walk the extra mile crap) articulation that TSP is a terrorist state and responding forcefully to TSP's provocations.

Come on, seriously, look at that Aman ki Asha bullcrap. You can’t say that it did not serve our purpose. Willingness to walk the extra mile? Of course we are willing to walk the extra mile. Always. Why not? Why surrender that ground to the Paks? But the real question is what does that entail? After all the moaning about the secretary level talks, see what came out of that. And Aman ki Asha? It is no more than a flashing tab on Dawn’s website now. And TOI was at least scarred by the whole experience, if not tarred. Two biatches with one stone. Somebody, somewhere in the corridors of some no-name identikit building in Delhi is probably pretty chuffed by the whole thing. If not, and if the whole thing was thought up by some of the pompous poseurs at TOI, then it’s even worse. What a tight self-slap in that case. They must be reeling from their own idiocy. But don’t bet on it.

>US must get the message that its war on terror and India's war in terror is the same battle.

Why? Whether they get the message or not is not germane to India’s war. One way or another we will have to fight it, on our own. If they are willing to fight on our side, fine. Otherwise, we will do it on our own and regard them as aiding and abetting, although we will continue to talk nice and – more importantly – continue to do business and expand it as rapidly as possible. There is no need to labour under any assumption that a US that gets the message will become more favourable towards India. On the contrary, it may – and probably will if it hasn’t already – get the message and then assess our weaknesses accordingly in order to apply the necessary pressure on those points when it finds an interest in doing so. America has to prove its credentials as far as benevolence towards India is concerned, and it will take time. Sharing a few bits of technology to pick up conversations does not cut it in my personal opinion.

>>And the status quo as far as India is concerned is treating TSP as a normal state once it escews terror as an instrument of state policy.

Again, why? Why should we treat TSP as a normal state if it eschews terror as an instrument of state policy? It is a state that was conceived by bigots and created in hate, and it continues to live up to its raisin dieter supplying many with an opportunity to become afterlife raisin dieters. So long as Pakistan exists in its current territorial and ideological configuration, there is no reason for us to treat it as a “normal” state – because it would not be one, just because we wish it to be so. For Pakistan to be a “normal” state, it must cease to be Pakisatan – and eschewing terror is only one aspect of that. It may even have to rename itself to Pakjab.

kittoo

>>I dont think that statement meant 'respect' in literal sense. It was more along the lines that if you take care of your interests well enough, US will have to think before screwing you.

Ah, so Orbat was just stating the obvious then. OK. I misunderstood. I thought they really meant respect in the literal sense.

>>These days it seems that India has conceded and just doing whatever US orders. In return, US screws India even further.

This is your opinion, and although I disagree, I won’t dispute it. I just want to point out that the reason I assumed you meant “respect” in the literal sense is this post of yours: “As it was said on Orbat.com, if you respect yourself, US respects you. If you dont, it makes you a punchbag, like it has made India. Though we can say that Pak is US's w**re and all, there is no denying that they've made a fool of US and have extracted a lot of goodies meanwhile.”

I got the impression that you were suggesting we emulate the Pakistani example of making “a fool of the US” and extracting “a lot of goodies meanwhile”, in an effort to get respect (in any sense). I cannot see how India has become a punching bag for the US, and I fail to understand your regard for Pakistani policy while on the other hand noting that Pakistan is the US’s whore. Surely, you do not want India to go that way. Maybe I have misunderstood the above quote completely, and you were actually trying to say something else, but it came out this way.

Sorry for the long post guys, Sundayafternoonitis

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Mar 2010 18:25

Nirupama Subramanian in a nut-slicing interview with a Pak anchor

(for another perspective on NS). For this one she deserves all our kudos. Scroll down within the page.

http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/2010/0 ... -pakistan/

Just noticed that the same has been linked above as the best piece of equal equal ever!!! Well, I guess to each his own interpretation.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 21 Mar 2010 19:32

nirupama rocks

arun · Post by **arun** » 21 Mar 2010 19:48

The IEDology of Pakistan demonstrated in Quetta:

At least 3 killed, 20 injured in Quetta blast

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 19:58

ArmenT wrote:BBC reports bum blast in Greece. Why is this in the Paki news thread, you ask?? Well, the target was a Pakistani "community leader". Wonder if this is an intra-paki fight or some other reason.

Xenophobia, nothing to do with Pakistanis as such.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 20:23

shaardula wrote:nirupama rocks

We all wish we could miss Pakistan, wonder where it has vanished, why we haven't heard from it so long!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 20:31

Re: Christine Fair, on nuclear deals, etc.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/18/9 ... clear.html

"We need a big idea for Pakistan, to transform it from a source of insecurity for the region to a country committed to eliminating terrorism and ensuring that nuclear proliferation doesn't happen again," Fair said. "At the moment, we're trying to get Pakistan to do things that are in our strategic interests, but not in theirs."

This is stupidity of the highest order. Pakistan needs a big idea for itself - e.g., being another Asian Tiger Economy - it cannot be transplanted from the US.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Mar 2010 20:33

Foreign dictation tampering Pakistan's progress: Shahbaz

Sharif blamed former president Pervaiz Musharraf's policy for being the root cause of the rise of terrorism in the country.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 20:52

Pakistani Muslims Accused of Rape Allegedly Attack Sisters

Fearing conviction, five suspects are said to have tried beating 15- and 21-year-old into dropping charges.

LAHORE, Pakistan, March 18 (Compass Direct News) - Five Muslims allegedly ransacked the house of an impoverished Christian in this capital city of Punjab Province last month and angrily beat his daughters in an effort to get the family to withdraw rape charges

Muniran said Sharif stabbed her four times with the dagger.

"They ripped apart my clothes, as well as my sister's," she said. "In the meantime, Muhammad Sajjid kept firing into the air to terrorize us."

The family accuses the men of raping her then-13-year-old sister in 2008. Their frail father said that the gang leader, Sajjid, commanded his accomplices to abduct both Muniran and her sister in the most recent attack, without success. A neighbor who requested anonymity said that a large number of people gathered in front of the house upon hearing the cries of the Christian family, causing the five Muslims to flee.

The alleged attacks on the family were predicated in part on the assumption that, as Christians, they will get little help from a justice system biased against non-Muslims and easily swayed by threats, bribes or other means of persuasion from Muslims, Christian leaders said. When the family approached Nishtar Colony police for help, officers refused to register a case.

Shujaat said the four men were being prosecuted for rape and abduction of the girl in District and Sessions Court. Sources told Compass that the alleged rapists were granted bail and secured liberty soon after their apprehension.

Shujaat said evidence at their trial showed they were responsible for the rape, and that a conviction was imminent.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 20:53

PAF deploys air-to-air refuelling aircraft

The Il-78 air-to-air refuelling aircraft, which was inducted into the PAF in December last year, took active part in the High Mark 2010 exercise and refuelled two fighter jets, officials said.

Pakistan is expecting the delivery of three more refuelling aircraft by June, a PAF official told state-run APP news agency.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 20:55

UET Student Killed By Fanatics Over Playing Music

By Ernest Dempsey

('DiggThis')

A week ago, a final year student named Adnan was fatally assaulted in a hostel in the NWFP University of Engineering and Technology (UET). Newspapers reported that Adnan was playing music in his hostel when a group of Islamic fundamentalist students invaded his room and ordered him against enjoying music. Upon his resistance, the attackers hit him and one blow with a wicket (a wooden post used in cricket) caused him serious brain damage. After spending a week in coma in the hospital, Adnan died on Saturday (March 20, 2010).

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 21 Mar 2010 20:57

Kareena Advertising Stirs Pakistanis

Several comments were against the display of Indian actors on Pakistani billboards.

“Pakistani models are far better than Indian models… why should we display Indians???” wrote Sarah. “This Indian fever is so really childish. We should support our own talent.”

Fashion Iconz said Firdous had also approached several other Indian actresses, such as Dia Mirza and Ria Sen, to exhibit its summer collection for 2010.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 21:02

My email to Professor Christine Fair (I don't know if the email address that I found is current):

Dear Professor Fair:

You are quoted in McClatchy as follows:

""We need a big idea for Pakistan, to transform it from a source of insecurity for the region to a country committed to eliminating terrorism and ensuring that nuclear proliferation doesn't happen again," Fair said. "At the moment, we're trying to get Pakistan to do things that are in our strategic interests, but not in theirs."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/18/9 ... z0ipBOulHz

With all due respect, I think you have gotten this utterly backwards.

Pakistan needs a big idea for itself, such cannot be transplanted by the US.

For instance, Pakistan could try to be another Asian Tiger Economy. It does not choose to be.

Read Masood Hasan's lament in Pakistan's The News:
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=230269
Internet stores do not ship to Pakistan nor do they accept credit cards from Pakistan.

This is because the Pakistani establishment sees strategic depth in Afghanistan, wresting Jammu and Kashmir from India, promoting the Islamization of the country as more important than even such elementary issues, that keep Pakistan from participating in the global economy.

Problems like that reported by Masood Hasan cannot be fixed by the US government, IMF, World Bank and European Union combined. It cannot be solved by giving Pakistan nuclear deals, arms, aid, disguised as "big ideas".

These problems require a change of heart of the Pakistani establishment. Now, if they come to the upcoming strategic negotiations with the US and say - we want to be the next Asian tiger, help us - then you can say, do this and do that, and we'll provide this and that, and help you get there.

If the Pakistanis come to the strategic negotiations wanting a nuclear deal to be on parity with India, and the predominant voice in any settlement in Afghanistan to create or preserve strategic depth, and arms so that they don't feel outmatched by India and so on, then sure, the US can provide these;

BUT

1. This won't transform Pakistan - it will simply keep it on its current track
2. This won't change Pakistani strategic interests.
3. It won't reduce Pakistan as a source of instability
4. It won't enable Pakistan to participate in the global economy.
5. US and Pakistani strategic interests will continue to diverge

We definitely don't need a big idea for Pakistan, except perhaps to say that we will not support them until they get a big idea for themselves, that we can participate in, and help with.
_____________________

Taking it to the next level: Pakistan could say - we do want to be the next Asian tiger, it is just we face all these constraints.

That would a lie. E.g., see these series of articles by Pakistani writers warning that Punjab and the Sharif's Pakistan Muslim League are drenched in Taliban ideology. Punjab is by far the largest province and the PML-N is the province's government, and is part of the federal government. How can they say with a straight face that this is what they want, and how can any undeluded American believe them?

Irfan Husain in the Dawn:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -030-zj-14

The Sharif's brothers' "party {PML-N} is indeed ideologically very close to the Taliban’s extremist position on a wide range of issues."

Ayaz Amir in Pakistan's The News:
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=229877

Punjab can no longer live in denial : "If FATA represents the cutting edge of terrorism in the name of Islam, Punjab, unfortunately, is the hinterland of this phenomenon. Or, to borrow a phrase from the repertoire of military folly, Punjab is the strategic depth of bigotry and extremism masquerading in the colours of Islam. "

The editors of Dawn:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -630-zj-08

Why is it so difficult for the PML-N to condemn terrorism outright, with no ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’?

Kamran Shafi in the Dawn:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... kistan-630

"Lahore has been attacked twice inside of a week, the attacks killing scores of people and injuring and maiming many more. The intelligence agencies failed all ends up yet again, and as per usual, specially the premier agency aka the Mother of All Agencies which seems to have its finger in every matter — from disappearing people to formulating the country’s foreign policy to destabilising the government whenever it is perceived to be stepping ‘out of line’ — except in running the yahoos to the ground and nipping their evil in the bud."

This may be tiresome to read again - but giving Pakistan arms, nuclear deals, civilian aid, etc. cannot, does not and will not make PML-N any less sympathizers of the Taliban. PML-N is simply taken for illustration, because recent election results and its position in Pakistani politics does not permit the excuse that this is fringe movement. There is good reason to believe that the ideology goes much beyond the PML-N and its supporters.

Now, let PML-N want to change, and then we have something to talk about.

Sincerely,
Arun Gupta

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 21 Mar 2010 21:46

JE Menon wrote: kittoo

>>I dont think that statement meant 'respect' in literal sense. It was more along the lines that if you take care of your interests well enough, US will have to think before screwing you.

Ah, so Orbat was just stating the obvious then. OK. I misunderstood. I thought they really meant respect in the literal sense.

>>These days it seems that India has conceded and just doing whatever US orders. In return, US screws India even further.

This is your opinion, and although I disagree, I won’t dispute it. I just want to point out that the reason I assumed you meant “respect” in the literal sense is this post of yours: “As it was said on Orbat.com, if you respect yourself, US respects you. If you dont, it makes you a punchbag, like it has made India. Though we can say that Pak is US's w**re and all, there is no denying that they've made a fool of US and have extracted a lot of goodies meanwhile.”

I got the impression that you were suggesting we emulate the Pakistani example of making “a fool of the US” and extracting “a lot of goodies meanwhile”, in an effort to get respect (in any sense). I cannot see how India has become a punching bag for the US, and I fail to understand your regard for Pakistani policy while on the other hand noting that Pakistan is the US’s whore. Surely, you do not want India to go that way. Maybe I have misunderstood the above quote completely, and you were actually trying to say something else, but it came out this way.

Sorry for the long post guys, Sundayafternoonitis

My quote indeed comes quite contradictory. But I guess in the contradiction itself lies the point. That while, surely, I dont want India going the 'whore' way, I of course want GoI to take a firm stand when it comes to whole AfPak-US policy. As it has been said, it seems our whole policy has been reactionary, rather than being rooted in some vision. And this reaction, IMO, comes when US punches us. Maybe punch is a stronger word. I should say, pushes our concerns and us aside. There have been quite a few incidents of USs duplicacy in dealing with us and Pak, but I will love to be wrong.
Now if Pak has made fool of US, is it a firm stand? I dont think so, but it has given them advantage quite a few times. Should it matter to us how we reach our goals? By making fools of US or taking a firm stand? I am not even sure if we can make fool of US. My whole point is that the aim is to reach our goals, most of the time it should not matter how we reach (not by whoring of course).
Does Pak have 'respect' in US eyes in literal sense? I dont think so. But has US agreed to quite a few demands, even when they were against Indian interests? Sure. Maybe not all the time, but quite a few times. So I guess what I should've made clearer, I and I am indeed sorry for, is that while there is no way I think 'whoring is good', I do think that Pak has made it clear to the US what its interests are, especially vis-a-vis India, and US has given Pak whatever it asked for, for the most part.
What I am concerned about, is that there are very few sectors in whole setup here in India, that actually speak about how we have been shafted and how we need to shift a few gears. What those should be and how we go about doing that, has been discussed here at great lengths and by far better minds than mine.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Mar 2010 22:17

The Il-78 air-to-air refuelling aircraft, which was inducted into the PAF in December last year, took active part in the High Mark 2010 exercise and refuelled two fighter jets, officials said.

Pakistan is expecting the delivery of three more refuelling aircraft by June, a PAF official told state-run APP news agency.

So, now smaller PAF has 4 refuellers while a much bigger IAF has just 6?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Mar 2010 22:38

sum wrote:
The Il-78 air-to-air refuelling aircraft, which was inducted into the PAF in December last year, took active part in the High Mark 2010 exercise and refuelled two fighter jets, officials said.

Pakistan is expecting the delivery of three more refuelling aircraft by June, a PAF official told state-run APP news agency.
So, now smaller PAF has 4 refuellers while a much bigger IAF has just 6?

PAF has larger distances to cover.

PS: I should be clearer. Logically it seems you need refuellers when you are going a long distance from your bases compared to the range of your aircraft. I would guess that most of Pakistan is within reach of Indian aircraft without refuelling; while most of India is not in reach of Pakistani aircraft without refuelling. However refuelling aircraft still won't do them much good - they'll have to refuel somewhere far out over the Arabian sea where they won't be sitting ducks. At best it will help with striking some coastal areas of south India and perhaps for striking at the Indian navy.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Mar 2010 22:50

>>I do think that Pak has made it clear to the US what its interests are, especially vis-a-vis India, and US has given Pak whatever it asked for, for the most part.

The media reports certainly suggest, and Pakistani leaders certainly aren't low key about it, that the demands from the Pakistani side for de facto control over Afghanistan are being accommodated by the US. Does this mean that India has not articulated its concerns t the US? I think we have and Nirupama Rao's comments certainly indicate that. What seems to be the case is that our concerns have already been, or are likely to be, ignored for the most part.

In my opinion, this is a good thing, generally speaking. (Specifically, we will have to address a new set of challenges from Afghanistan courtesy of the inbreeds to our west, but let's not get our undies in a twist about this. We have dealt with it before, and will do so again). Our relationship with the US, which had reached a positive productive overdrive during the Bush admin, needs a certain deceleration so that India, certainly, and the US (probably) can reassess their expectations from the relationship in a more practical light. We won't be the loser here. We have what we wanted. The deceleration need not have been necessary, and may yet not be, if some in the US can wrench their heads out of their collective foggy bottom. We will manage either way.

>>What I am concerned about, is that there are very few sectors in whole setup here in India, that actually speak about how we have been shafted and how we need to shift a few gears.

How have we been shafted? We haven't really asked anyone's permission to get into development work in Afghanistan, and it is clear that we are not going to pull out either - at least for the time being. Or do you mean we have been shafted in some other sphere of our interaction with the US?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2010 22:53

BBC - pakis in thick of the action as usual...even in greece!

Greece bomb hits Pakistani leader's home in Athens
Police officers in Athens, 19 March
It was the second blast police responded to in as many days

A bomb has exploded outside the home of a Pakistani community leader in the Greek capital Athens - the second blast in the area in less than 24 hours.

Police said there were no injuries, but some damage was done to the entrance of the apartment building and three cars.

On Friday, a bomb damaged the office of a far-right anti-immigration group.

No group has said it carried out the attacks, but there have been numerous bombings attributed to far-left or anarchist groups in recent years.

Recent attacks have targeted banks and government buildings.

Greece has faced severe anti-government protests and rioting since police shot dead a teenager in December 2008.

In the latest attack, police were able to seal off the area after anonymous warning calls were made to a Greek TV station and a newspaper 15 minutes before the explosion.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 21 Mar 2010 23:09

ToI - India successfully test-fires BrahMos supersonic cruise missile

India has become the first and only country in the world to have a "maneuverable supersonic cruise missile in its inventory," he said

Shireen's nation - India tests hi-tech new cruise missile

India has thus become one of the few countries to possess such a "manoeuvrable supersonic cruise missile", he said.

exhibiting your inner pakistan Shireen, hmmm

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 21 Mar 2010 23:19

Now I can udnerstand why it is sometimes called TOI-let paper, on the basis of its film review we went to see Lahore. It is gut-churningly embarrassing - it also advocates keeping a perpetually tuned cheek and even missing India's chance at winning a world championship to prove our moral superiority over TSP. Can someone please enlighten who is the brains behind this.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 21 Mar 2010 23:23

kshirin wrote:Now I can udnerstand why it is sometimes called TOI-let paper, on the basis of its film review we went to see Lahore. It is gut-churningly embarrassing - it also advocates keeping a perpetually tuned cheek and even missing India's chance at winning a world championship to prove our moral superiority over TSP. Can someone please enlighten who is the brains behind this.

not sometimes but all the time it is a ToIlet paper. Already stopped buying since its Aman Ka Tamasha.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Mar 2010 23:36

A_Gupta wrote:
sum wrote: So, now smaller PAF has 4 refuellers while a much bigger IAF has just 6?
PAF has larger distances to cover.

PS: I should be clearer. Logically it seems you need refuellers when you are going a long distance from your bases compared to the range of your aircraft. I would guess that most of Pakistan is within reach of Indian aircraft without refuelling; while most of India is not in reach of Pakistani aircraft without refuelling. However refuelling aircraft still won't do them much good - they'll have to refuel somewhere far out over the Arabian sea where they won't be sitting ducks. At best it will help with striking some coastal areas of south India and perhaps for striking at the Indian navy.

PAF's posture is primarily defensive vis-a-vis IAF. refuellers will be mainly used to keep the critical assets (AEW&C, F-16's) in the air for a longer time for a protective cover. I'm not saying they are not meant to be used for carrying out offensive missions at all but that is not the main reason.

btw most of the port infra in gujarat and oil infra in gujarat and rajasthan (upcoming with the cairns project) are well in range of PAF. of course IAF is well aware of that and takes adequate precautions.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 21 Mar 2010 23:50

Dowry dispute: Groom, baraatis detained, beaten

Sunday, March 21, 2010

SHUJABAD: In an unusual incident today, the family of a bride held the groom and members of his wedding procession hostage before subjecting them to torture on a dowry issue.

The incident took place in Tehsil Shujabad of District Multan.

The tension began when the groom made a demand of 125 CC motorcycle in dowry instead of 70 CC. The demand angered the bride’s family, who then claimed that the groom had cheated them by bringing four tolah gold contrary to the agreed 6-tolah gold.

The tension mounted between the two sides, leading to a brawl.