Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: So we should stop this search for horse-bones and confront the AIT-Nazis by posing to them the question, "Why don't Rigvedic Indians and their descendants drink mare's milk?"
LOL! Mare's milk is a great counterpoint. But the Horse argument is mainly to give geography to a date for Sanskrit that linguists have already arrived at. Changing that date will screw their ideas but that is not our problem.

The Rig Veda dates from before 1900 BC - that is before the Saraswati dried up. A date of 3000 BC is plausible - I would accept whatever the astronomical evidence says. By arguing about horse we are only playing the linguists game and being sidetracked. Linguists are trying to find a history for Europe and the Rig Veda dating is only a tool/crutch.

But if we were to talk about "out of India" and we have a date of 3000 BC for Sanskrit - we then have an extra 1500 years to figure out what went out of India.

Unfortunately for me it means that i will have to dig into linguistics - something that I know I will do but do not relish, to see what I can dig up. Some of the phonetic changes that I see mentioned in the Anthony book sound implausible and very Eurocentric in their bias. But I must not judge before I do my homework. I do not for a moment believe that Avestan of 1200 BC is a "sister language" to a pre-1900 BC Sanskrit.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote: Linguists are trying to find a history for Europe and the Rig Veda dating is only a tool/crutch.
Good that now this is clear. Linguists need to be ignored and never counter argue against linguists.

This needs to be understood by all Indians if we need to get control of our history back.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

Coming back to Saraswati-

for your in-depth analysis:
http://www.orangesmile.com/ru/foto/ocea ... -ocean.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... tRidge.jpg

expand the pic.

connect the dots.

connect to the kumari kandam reference from tamil literature. [mid-indian ridge, chagos-laccadive Ridge, ninety east ridge]

connect to the periods of floods.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

venug ji,

I think you are viewing Karna with a single set of semantics, whereas Dharmic philosophy says that there are many semantics, there are many layers to Truth.

You see this process as one laying down the single semantics of Karna, whereas it can be seen as fleshing out one set of semantics, whereas other semantics remain untouched by this historical analysis.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:Now there is a website on Indo-Aryans.

They too parrot the same "We are from Central Asia" line.
Rajesh "they" are an idiot called Rohitvij who owns the domain name.

Some of the content is lifted verbatim from a racist site
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/concept.htm
From both links the comon text of interest to us is:
Europe is European because the conquerors and the conquered were members the same White race, different branches on the same family tree; India is a morass of poverty because the bulk of the conquered, with whom the Indo-Aryans eventually intermarried, were non-White Veddoids. The lesson is obvious. Even today high-caste Hindus can still be identified by their Caucasian features and light skin, and the poorest and most backward parts of India are generally the darkest.
The "militarism" that linguists seem to support is also mentioned in the racist site
The Aryans were remarkably expansionist, and almost everywhere they went they conquered and subjugated the indigenous peoples, imposing their languages and (to varying degrees) their religious beliefs on the natives, and receiving in turn contributions from the peoples whom they conquered. Aryan invasions — or more accurately, a long sequence of different invasions by speakers of Indo-European languages — swept across Old Europe beginning as early as the fourth millennium BC, and over time the conquerors and the conquered melded into specific peoples with distinctive languages. Most of the contemporary inhabitants of Europe, along with their respective early national cultures, are the result of interaction between successive waves of Aryan invaders and culture of the particular White people that they conquered and with whom they later intermarried, and as a result almost all modern European languages are members of the Western branch of the IE family tree.
There may be a subtle 21st century piskological subtext here. Many Europeans probably see themselves as world conquerors and world rulers and need to see their own history as one of dominating, aggressive, militaristic people.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Arjun »

Acharya wrote: Linguists need to be ignored and never counter argue against linguists.
Terminology needs to be more precise. India practically owns the copyright for linguisitics...The discipline was started by Panini & Bhrtrihari with what is now know as 'descriptive linguistics'. The problem is only with historical linguistics - a sub-branch of linguistics that was started in Europe in the late 18th century.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

any myth/stories that says people are averse to cow's milk? meaning lactose intolerant?

here is my new thought:

cows milk drinkers : Local bharat vasis/desis
mares milk drinkers : Traders from the North of mountains - CAS nations
Last edited by SaiK on 22 Jun 2012 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajesh ji, I see what you are saying.

from the link shiv ji posted, you can how Arya has now become 'Indo-European' you should thank linguists...I don't know whose side these people are on, I will understand if their views are based on a solid footing at least. Their half baked theories are actually hurting us.
Arya, meaning "noble," appears in various Indo-European languages. Its plural form (Aryas="nobles" { :) now it became english }, no was probably the name the Aryans used to describe themselves prior to their dispersal, and it may survive in Eire (Ireland) and certainly survives in Iran (Airyanam vaejo="realm of the Aryans"). The discovery of thousands of such cognate words in widely separated languages, along with similar grammatical structures, led philologists to conclude, early in the nineteenth century, that most European languages had evolved from a common proto-language spoken millennia ago by a distinct people who gradually left their original homeland in a series of migrations, carrying their language with them.
Last edited by member_22872 on 22 Jun 2012 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:But if we were to talk about "out of India" and we have a date of 3000 BC for Sanskrit - we then have an extra 1500 years to figure out what went out of India.

Unfortunately for me it means that i will have to dig into linguistics - something that I know I will do but do not relish, to see what I can dig up. Some of the phonetic changes that I see mentioned in the Anthony book sound implausible and very Eurocentric in their bias. But I must not judge before I do my homework. I do not for a moment believe that Avestan of 1200 BC is a "sister language" to a pre-1900 BC Sanskrit.
According to Talageri's Out-of-India Theory, it were the Druhyus, another tribe of the Lunar Dynasty, which went North from Sapta-Sindhu into Afghanistan, and ultimately became the proto-Europeans.

So Europeans should look for proto-European in the language of the Druhyus, which was a sister-language or sister-language family to Vedic Sanskrit.

It would be wrong to consider Vedic Sanskrit as the mother of Indo-European languages.

Sure Druhyu-krit and Vedic Sanskrit could have had a common origin - Lunic (from Lunar Dynasty), but that would certainly not be PIE. Let's also not forget that the European languages as they exist today are perhaps languages that evolved as non-Aryan :wink: people from Central Asia mixed with the Aryan Druhyu subtribes, and so they may have acquired the phonetics of the substratum non-Aryan languages. So it may prove difficult to reconstruct the proto-European Druhyu language. Perhaps they should better look at the language of the Nuristanis, Kohistanis, Chitral and Pamir people.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

so..

cow milk drinkers : SDREs
mare milk drinkers : TFTAs
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

India is a morass of poverty
My german counterpart who shares halfwitz nationality was pulling my leg that many indians eat food prepared on cowshit!

I said India pledged usd 10 billion aid for alleviating orchastrated european poverty. he became halfwitz and was not ready to believe. i said all in all usd 475 billion has been pledged as an aid to europe. he could not eat his lunch. i told tha we can feed many more to you including some food prepared on cow shit.

The next day it was a bomb shell moment for my halfwitz. india fined one swiss company usd 420 million.

****

Rajiv malhotraji says that our people give more importance to message behind itihaas and puran then history. whether krishn or ram lived or not is not more important. I t is what message conveyed thru examples and stories.

We will not learn too much of history to satisfy halfwitz fancies.

They say our veds are eve expanding jnan, knowledge. we will further the cause of our seers.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

Didn't you tell him that his co Eu pal les stroud who shows in survivor-man shows, does extreme acts of eating wild things and sh!t squeezes to get some water out to drink. elephant dung was one of the example. he can demonstrate to your friend how eat them too... well, one eats the whole animal, what is the problem in eating a part?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

OIT thread is like yajna now. there will be people like tadka who will throw horse bones in our yajna but we cannot be stopped. we will be like lord ram protected vishvamitra and yog guru`s ashram, we will see the yajna is successful. see, how our itihas keeps our moral high! take this AIT nazis
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

t
SaiK wrote:Didn't you tell him that his co Eu pal les stroud who shows in survivor-man shows, does extreme acts of eating wild things and sh!t squeezes to get some water out to drink. elephant dung was one of the example. he can demonstrate to your friend how eat them too... well, one eats the whole animal, what is the problem in eating a part?
Ha ha. yes, i will tell him tomorrow!

Btw, i liked your history and past wala post
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RamaY »

I understand that we all want to destroy the AIT/AMT and pursue the OIT for various reasons - pursuit of Truth, Self-Pride, Geopolitics, Colonization, revenge, whatever...

But in the process we are reading Vedas as some dry text-book/novel and doing word searches and word counts etc.,

I am sure most of the active participants as well-versed in Sanskrit language, but Vedic sanskrit is slightly different and sometimes the Panini Grammer doesn't stand (I heard that is because the Vedas predate Panini hence do not follow his grammar strictly). This is called Chandasa where the intended meaning of Vedas holds primary even if it is grammatically incorrect w.r.t Panini.

I think it is appropriate to post this, so people understand Vedas correctly
Ancient Indians: Hidden in Plain View – The Vedas

For centuries people have been complaining that Vedas have been the prerogative of male brahmins and they did/do not share these with other genders and castes.

The nationalist leaders of the freedom movement fixed that problem and now Vedas are available to all.. books, recordings, translations, training.. what have you!

And yet .. the recordings deviate wildly from the Veda Swaras (of any Indian state) and violate Siksha Vedanga (which incidentally is taught very rarely)..

The training is non-rigourous and does not demand any anushthana (practice/discipline).

The translations are superficial, fanciful, loaded with vested interests, inconsistent .. rigid.. and so on.. basically inaccurate.

Ayyo! (Oh father! Oh Sir!)

Many people quote the Veda – Meanings as if the translations are absolute and accurate even though the translators do not know more than 1or 2 of the 6 vedangas .. Other people happily listen to the old syllables set to new notes.. thus changing the sounds preserved over thousands of years.

So now everyone has the Vedas or anyone can have the Vedas .. only very, very few people actually do have the Vedas, the s’abda!

Those people in search of that s’abda still undergo the anusthana and learn from a regular sacred guru the original “sounds” with swaras and uccharana (pronunciation) as it was in the days of the yore.

These gurus are remote and must be sought out.. the discipline is severe and the process is long drawn. For all this.. no one has any “time” anymore.

So in the midst of all this Vedic proliferation everywhere.. hidden in plain view is the “right sound” the Veda and you can have it only if you know which is right and how to lay your hearing and speech on it, pouring into that sacred yagnya, the ghee of the time and effort of your well-regulated mind.

And one who doesn’t know, doesn’t know even if he is told. “Teliyani vaadiki cheppinaa teliyadu!”

Ayyo! Once the Vedas were hidden from view and now they are hidden in plain sight! Hidden by the ignorance, pride and/or laziness in the mind of the observer. Far better hidden now, than ever, becoz’ a bloke who’s happy he’s found the treasure.. isn’t going to search anymore…
Another article related to this dhaaga...
Ancient Indians: Daksha : He named the fixed stars!

Authorship and Copyright Notice : All Rights Reserved : Satya Sarada Kandula

Daksha waited outside looking at the sky, waiting for the sun to set. He loved the moment when the stars started twinkling into existence, at first one by one and later several at a time as daylight faded. He loved to look at the sky. There was nothing as beautiful and as precise and predictable as the sun and the moon and the stars.

He was young, strong, handsome and very fond of his lovely wife, Prasuti. They called him Daksha, the dexterous! They said he was born of the thumb of Brahma. Daksha laughed., they just said any old thing. What if some fool were to take them literally?Brahma worried about that laughter. ‘This one is just too confident of himself’, he thought. ‘They will think he is arrogant”.

“And who is “they”? father,’ he would ask. ” ‘They’, that think things and label people.. I have no time for such vague people or vague statements.”

“Must be brother Manu,” he thought. “I have never seen another being with views so rigid. He and Bhrgu! Always talking of ethics and purity and rules. So sure that they were better than everyone else! Actually, one had to concede that Bhrgu was a wizard of sorts.. he could cure people of anything and was not in the least scared of the muck that people had under their skin or the icky stuff that oozed out. And Manu was a legal wizard, and expert at sociology and principles that governed the behaviour of people. Sometimes though, he didn’t see people as .. well human people!”

Prasuti laughed. “Careful when you criticise my father,” she said warningly. “You are no bundle of humility!”

“Send my darling little Sati to me, I want to show her something”, he told his wife. Daksha thought that his daughter Sati was the Devi herself. Brilliant, beautiful, insightful, gentle, brave and proud! None of that timid deference that other women were given to. She was fearlessness personified.

“Father, here I am”, she said. ‘Are you going to show me the stars again?” she asked happily. Daksha smiled a ‘yes’ at her.

“That there in the east is where the stars, sun and moon rise”, he said, “and there in the west is where they set. And your grandfather Brahma showed me how the sun and the moon rise a little more towards the north every day for half the time and a little more to the south every day for half the time.”

“I know!” yelled Sati. “And that there is Thatha’s favorite star – Shravista (now called Dhanishta) towards the south”. Daksha put on a serious expression. “I need your help to do a little project young lady!” he said. “First, for a whole month we are going to watch the moon, and we are going to watch which stars he is near and how much time he spends with each one. And we’ll number them.”

“No, we’ll give them names” Sati said. “Alright, and we’ll make a little model out of bamboo strips bent into perfect circles and stick little bits of clay to mark the special stars” said Daksha. “If I name the stars ‘they’ will call them my daughters”, he sighed.

“But ‘we’ don’t care what ‘they’ think, do we father?”, she asked. “No, we don’t”, he said. Their project ran into several months as they made their model more and more accurate. The stars had to be bright, easy to distinguish and equally spaced along the north-south as well as along the east-west axes. Some stars were a little closer together and some were a little further apart. On some nights Bhrgu joined them. When her uncle Bhrgu came over, Sati used to point out the patterns she saw in the sky. “Do you see that goat’s head? That star there is Asvini” she said. “And do you see that bull? It is my Siva who rides it, we call that star aRudra, because it is reddish..”

Bhrgu turned to Daksha. “What is this talk of ‘my Siva’ ?” he demanded. “She’s a child,” Daksha replied.

“Manu says that a girl is a young lady at 8 years” said Bhrgu. “You just made that up, you are the one who does all that biology stuff. Not Manu!” said Daksha.

Prasuti intervened, “Whoever said it, Sati is a young lady and you are not raising her like a girl. You keep her up late and fill her head with stars and numbers. She takes no interest in dressing and housework. How long do you plan to do this?’

Daksha said “Sati is Devi herself. When she sits next to me the heavens light up and so does my brain. I can think clearly and understand perfectly. Narry a cloud blocks my vision. Stars or no stars, she is not an ordinary girl”.

After Bhrgu left, Prasuti spoke to Daksha, “When she is not talking stars and numbers to you, she is talking about Siva to everyone else, she has decided to marry him.”

Daksha was in a dilemna. While he did not technically believe in jathis or races, he did not actually think his daughter would choose someone whose parentage was unknown and unknowable. What a headache! Manu would give him an earful. Manu and Bhrgu wanted what they called racial purity. They believed that the descendants of Brahma should keep together and marry only within the clan. There was no use to talking to them.

Daksha called on Vasishtha. ” ‘They’ say you are born from the mind of our father Brahma”, he said. Vasishtha laughed, ” ‘They’ should be careful, some folks might take them literally,” he said. “What they really mean to say is that I have understood his thought and wisdom in its essence, but ‘they’ like shortcuts, it makes it more poetic!”

Daksha spoke “I have a real issue. My daughter Sati has set her heart on Siva. They say that he has three eyes and lives in a cremation ground with snakes and other animals. He is definitely not one of us, not a brahmana. Manu won’t like this.”

Vasishtha said,”It is not Manu’s life. It is Sati’s. You know that I am going to marry Arundhati. She is not a brahman either. Manu understands sociology – how most people can be made to conform to rules that will benefit the society as he understands it. But he does not appear to get psychology, how individuals feel and behave. We are not here to create a pure race. We are here to understand the divine.”

He paused, then continued “By the way your little girl has been telling me all about your project. I think that if people aligned their life events to the stars, then life would be orderly, dates would be easy to remember and we would know which dates are luckier than others.”

Daksha groaned, ” Not you too. Our genius brother Bhrgu has started mapping out thousands of combinations of what he calls ‘horoscopes’, based on these star positions that I am working out. He is gathering data of everyone he knows and making predictions for everyone that may ever be born at any time. He says his daughter Sridevi is helping him with this”.

The next day, there was a family debate. “Individual freedom and Aspirations Vs Social Order and racial purity.” No one would grant the other’s point. When Bhrgu tried to say something, they shushed him saying – “You believe in destiny and fate. What right do you have to debate when you don’t even believe in free will?”

Prasuti spoke,”Racial purity will require controlling women … and men for that matter. If a father has the ultimate right to gift his daughter to a worthy man, then she forfeits her right to marry the penniless man that she loves. It is against free choice”.

Manu said, “Na Stri Svatantram Arhati – A woman does not deserve freedom”. Prasuti got upset but did not wish to contradict her father. Then Sati spoke laughingly, “Yaa Stri Svatantram Chahati, Saa stri Svatantram Arhati! – That woman who desires freedom, deserves it!” Manu looked at Sati. When she spoke it wasn’t like a human debating a rule. It was like a divine decree. She was like the Devi herself.

Daksa said, “Father, in a short time the sun will set and Sati and I have to work on our project. Prasuti won’t let us work on an empty stomach. Let’s discuss this some other time”. Vasisihtha and Sridevi, Bhrgu’s daughter, also wanted to go with Daksha.

Bhrgu and Manu stayed back with Brahma. “They will think you are a bigot, Manu, you have to ease up a little.” said Brahma.

Manu spoke, “But father, that is because ‘they’ never hear me out completely. Daksha does not even treat sociology like a proper subject. I am not talking of racial purity as they try to project. ‘They’ claim that I am talking about racial purity and then they force me to defend a stand that they project on me. Some fool might believe them.”

He continued, “What I am talking if high specialisations, in mathematics, science, philosophy and engineering that will come if families dedicate themselves to a profession. Look at Daksha, he learnt Astronomical Siddhantam (it is now called Pitamaha Siddhantam) from you, his father and he is teaching his daughter now. Bhrgu and Vasishtha are learning from his observations and enhancing their work. That is community, family and clans working, whether are not Daksha and Vasishtha agree. Viswakarma and his family are brilliant with architecture, goldsmithy and city planning. I hear that he has made a bow for Vishnu, that has to bee seen to be believed. If you allow our country to specialise in their professions on family lines, this will be the greatest of all countries. No one will hold back their knowledge from their darling children.”

Brahma said, “I understand you. By the way, I have seen your work on time measurement. That is excellent. And your piece on ethics and law is brilliant. It is just the rules that you have made which curtail individual freedom that people resent. Happiness lies in self-determination. People want choice.”

Manu said, “I don’t care much for all that psychology stuff, Vasishtha goes ON about it, so. Individuals must restrain themselves and follow rules for the benefit of society. The well-being of an individual lies in the well-being of the country.” Bhrgu looked at Manu with great admiration. He said, “I guarantee that my children and their children remember every word you say. I will train them to make any sacrifice for the well-being of this country.”

At Daksha’s place, Sati had taken upon herself the role of the official spokesperson of their project. She showed Sridevi, the pole star that had never moved in all their months of observation. “We call it Dhruva, the firm”, she said. “Uncle Vasishtha says that it can be attained only by a person of great and unflinching resolve to a noble cause.”

As the stars appeared at different times on different nights, she would point them out. One day she pointed at Auriga. “We name that one after Thatha, our grandfather, Brahma.” she said. “Uncle Vasishtha!”, she called, “Can you see those seven stars? The second one there, we named after you. We have named one after Arundhati aunty as well, there near the kruthika cluster (Pleiades)”.

After the ‘project time’ was over, Sridevi and Sati would go off by themselves. “My father is going to give me to Vishnu in marriage,” said Sridevi delightedly, “What about your story? Any luck?”

Sati said, “Easy! From tomorrow, I don’t eat, till I get my way. If I so much as skip breakfast, mother will bring more pressure to bear on father than he can handle. He will land up at Siva’s door and offer my hand in marriage”.

It was as Sati said. Daksha found himself asking Nandi for a meeting with Siva. As Siva came up to greet him, Daksha was struck by his brilliant good looks and radiance, that no amount of ash or snakes could hide. “If I was this good looking, I would not care about a bath or ornaments either, he thought. “Where is that ‘third eye’ they talk about? The one that shoots fire?” he asked directly, without any preamble.

Siva laughed heartily. That wondrous, joyous laughter rang around the hills and valleys. The sun shone brighter and gentler, the winds became fragrant and Daksha was transfixed by Siva’s twinkling eyes. At that minute, he knew, deep in his heart, without really knowing why, that Siva was the right one for Sati. Nature herself reflected their moods. This was no ordinary man. It was an insult, an an anachronism to ask such a man about his parentage or his eligibility.

Siva spoke, “The third eye they speak about is my gnyananethram – eye of knowledge. I am an expert in Yoga and detached from the duality. So I can think clearly and can accept the truth, which is there for all to see. ‘They’ are blinded by their preferences and so do not accept the truth which their eyes and mind reveal. So rather than calling themselves prejudiced, they like to say that I have a third eye.”

“Please marry my daughter”, Daksha said urgently. “She is fasting and is adamant about marrying you. She will have none other. I am helpless against her will. And now that I have seen you, I know she is right.”

“I will come with you right away,” said Siva.

At Daksha’s place, Siva saw the model they had made and understood what they were trying to do.

Sati came out and said directly, ” ‘They’ call this the DakshaYajna. Everyone one I know has been to see it. In my family any long and difficult task is called a Yajnam. And we have been doing it for months”. Siva smiled at Sati, “I see your father is right about you, anyone would be helpless against your will. And I can see where you would not give importance to the same things that other girls give importance to.” Sati smiled back, ” ‘They’ see the form and not the substance, I see both.” “Will you have me for your wife?”. Siva laughed his wondrous laugh again. “So, I am not to be allowed the privilege of asking your father for you. Yes, of course I will marry you. I have never met a woman, who wished to live near cremation grounds, covered with ash and surrounded by animals and hill-folk, who spends most of his time in Yogic Dhyana (contemplation).”

Vasishtha heard about Siva’s visit and rushed to Daksha’s place, touched his feet and sought his blessings. “I hear that you have accepted my brother’s daughter. We are blessed for eternity.” Daksha was surprised. Vasishtha as oblivious to Daksha’s mood, “I am planning to compose a work called the Yoga Vasishtham. I am composing some Veda Mantras, which not only praise the Sun and the Ocean, but which also encode all the astronomical discoveries of my brother Daksha and my father, Brahma. I am working on a system of auspicious muhurtams or lucky times. Anyone who commences his work at those instants of celestial alignments will be sure to succeed in their endeavours. I am talking to Agni and others and learning all the histories of times past. All I needed was a darshan (sight) of you, to untangle all my ideas, into clear streams of thought and expression. They say that not only do you have all the answers, but you are all the answers. I and all my descendants are forever blessed”.

Daksha was surprised,”Does one bow to one who is younger? Or to the one who gifts his daughter in marriage?”. He shook his head, ” I am thinking like Manu now. If Vasishtha does it, it must be right, though I can’t understand half the things he says”.

“O Sati, what will happen to our project, now that you are off getting married?” Daksha said sadly. “Manu does say it is a waste educating girls. When they get married, they go away, unlike sons who stay on”. Sati laughed, “I believe that the girl going away is a also a rule made by the boys. Don’t worry, my uncles Vasishtha and Bhrgu, want us to wait till UttaraPhalguni Nakshatram (Denebola/Zavijaya). Siva will help us finish the project by then.” Daksha gave a smile and said,”Vasishtha thinks that we should order our lives as per celestial movements. Bhrgu thinks that our lives are already ordered as per celestial movements. But they joyfully work together without appearing to see the essential, logical contradictions in their views.”

Siva was a godsend as far as Daksha was concerned. He understood without speech. He helped make a more robust model, than what Sati and he had managed till them. He understood things like wheel balancing and centre of gravity. He suggested adding small paddles to the wheels so that the wheels could be turned by water. Manu’s time measurement devices were very useful in making a scaled model. They could quickly simulate, what would happen months, or even years down the line. He never needed to sleep and they could work through the night and day. He suggested that Daksha take Viswakarma’s model and get it made out of gold.

Everyone still called it Dakshayajna. Sati felt that Siva should get a share of the credit too and talked to her father. Siva sensed that Daksha wanted all the credit, it was “his” project from the beginning. Siva had only come in the end. It was not easy changing Sati’s mind. Finally, Siva said, “Let it go Sati, you and I know what all we deserve credit for. You never wanted any credit for yourself, then why for me? And your father is brilliant with his observations. I am just helping a little with the modelling. He has divided each nakshatra into 4 padas (quarters). He has added a circle for each pada. Now when the wheels turn you can see each pada of each star rise and set in turn. You can also see which nakshatra is rising when which nakshatra is setting. That really makes it easy for knowing daytime movements and positions.”

Sati said, “Yes, now if only, we could add some horizontal circles showing how the sun and the moon move… Have you told him that we will be leaving for the Himalayas as soon as we get married? My grandfather Brahma, thinks that we rely too much on the mountains and oceans to guard us and it will be good if we ‘manned’ our borders.”

“No one has the courage to tell your mother, that will be your job”, said Siva. “Himavantha and Menaka are very excited that you are coming, they look upon you as their own daughter, everyone their is waiting for their Parvathi Devi. The have heard and firmly believe that you are the Devi herself.”

Siva and Daksha were giving a final finish to the Dakshayajna project model. Vasishta came to watch. Daksha wanted to decide on a zero point. I have made a sort of imaginary star called Daksha (Abhijit) that overlaps with the end of Uttarashada. That can be the staring point he said. Siva did not agree. We’ll start with Aswini, the first star of Mesha, your “goat’s head”, he said. Daksha was said in mock anger. “My son-in-law, would you replace my head with a goats’s head?”

“Why, yes,” said Siva, “I would! It makes more seasonal sense. In fact, I would knock off your imaginary 28th Daksha Nakshatram completely and leave it at your original 27!”

Daksha shook his head,”Siva, you don’t care what ‘they’ will say. ‘They’ will say that my head has been replaced by a goat’s head. ‘They’ will draw morals from it and teach people not to be arrogant.” He threw a look at Vasishtha.

“And “they” will never forget you or your achievements!” said Vasishtha. “Now, no one can look at Mesha or any of the 27 stars, without thinking of you!”

Siva half closed his eyes, glanced at the future briefly and smiled at Daksha. “It will be as both of you say, but Sati will illuminate the minds of seekers of truth and “they” will know what really happened here today”, said He!

Authorship and Copyright Notice : All Rights Reserved : Satya Sarada Kandula

Notes :

In Sanskrit, the word Daksha means, right, skilled and south. When you face the east, south is to the right. That is why Daksha and Sati may be understood to be from the South. Daksha was also the name of a Prajapati, a son of Brahma appointed by Brahma to create Pra-jah (pro-creators). Daksha was a Prajapati. Praja means person and pati means lord. So Daksha was a lord of the people. Brahma made him a Prajapati along with some other Rishis. As per wikipedia, Daksha was called the father of the 27 stars, because he was the astronomer who named them.

Manu was the author of the Manusmriti. The narrator is Bhrgu. That is why in my story Daksha thinks that Bhrigu my have added in his own bits to manu smriti. One of Bhrgu’s descendants was Chanakya, the author of Kautilya ArthaSastra. The Artha Sastra has borrowed some parts from the ManuSmriti. Bhrgu authored the Bhrgu Samhita with includes sections on horoscopy as well as medicine. That explains the reference to Bhrgu’s medical skills

Siva was the God of the Asuras and Devas, the Devadeva.

Legends tell us that Bhrgu, Daksha and Manu were born of Brahma and that Vasishtha was his manasaputra. Vasishtha was skilled in Yoga as well as Astrology and was the RSi of many Veda Mantras into which much astronomy is encoded.

Legends tell us that Daksha’s daughter, Dakshayani, was called Sati. She was very fair, so she was also called Gauri. She fell in love with Siva and wished to marry him. The way to please Siva is through Tapas. So Sati did a very severe tapas, in which she did not eat as much as a leaf. So she was called Aparna. Siva was pleased eventually, but Daksha was not pleased at all. He performed the marriage, but then would have nothing to do with his divine daughter and son-in-law. When Daksha decided to perform a great Yajnam, he left Siva and Sati out on purpose. So Siva did not go and Brahma and Vishnu avoided the Yajnam as well. Daksha decided to go ahead any way. When Sati heard about this, she begged Siva for permission to go. She thought that daughters did not need invitations to go to fathers’ yajnas. Siva reluctantly let her go. Daksha was cold to Sati and said terrible things about Siva. Sati was very hurt and angry. She decided that she would be born again as the daughter of a father who loved Siva. She created a magic fire with her toe-nail and disappeared in it. When Siva heard what happened to Sati he was both sad and angry. He sent Virabhadra and Bhadrakali to destroy the Yajnam. And he replaced Daksha’s head with a goat’s head!

Daksha Smriti : http://www.urday.com/daksha.html

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

It is said in nighantu that the vibrations of the words spoken in vedic chants are more important than the meaning. does anybody has access to nighantu and this patticular statement?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Murugan »

Good example how gananatha the name of ganesh is intepreted by bhaskaracharya in nirukta fashion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirukta
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

ramay, you are talking about 10 mukhya upanishads that predates panini.

well, one can't give any dates for those as it never existed in any records. this is like saying, given a date and time, tell me what you said or spoke even if the time period is last week?

most pre-script periods, all knowledge/communication was through word of mouth. so, how can one bring that into a migration theory like this [Out of India]? our brains have limitations.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

most pre-script periods, all knowledge/communication was through word of mouth. so, how can one bring that into a migration theory like this [Out of India]? our brains have limitations.
SaiK garu, but this is exactly want is done by PIE guys. They equated pre-scrip sounds with those that are compiled and said that the sounds didn't change which is a big assumption. Now we are sucked into that debate. And from this PIE theory all this horse, chariots and migrations are born to support their PIE.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

They are working on an agenda and is being proven wrong. They pushing IndoAryan under IndoIranian and all leading upto Indo European is an agenda tree map to satisfy their bottom up stand. Sanskrit is pushed down the chain because, they have no clue to its existence as script hence, their stance.. which is valid, but the validity is within the scope of script/language alone.

Their PIE chart and tree maps is node-less if you do not consider "script" as the qualifier. The whole world knows sanskrit did not start with scripts., but as a spoken language. for that matter most dravidian languages/indic ones are spoken by default initially..

Scripts generally is a TFTA approach to vociferous SDREs. Just because scripts existed, it does not mean civilization only began from scripts.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshA »

SaiK wrote:so..

cow milk drinkers : SDREs
mare milk drinkers : TFTAs
Saik ji,

The point is, the AIT-Nazis claim that in the Rig-Veda, there is a memory of the Vedic Aryans of their times in the Steppes and their time with the horses there with possibly also a memory of their migration to India with their horses.

That is the explanation they give for the references to horse in Rig Veda and that is why they demand the evidence of horse remains in India. As long as one can't find the horse remains, they can claim that all those references of horses in Rig Veda are from their time inthe Steppes from where they come.

That is why I am saying that if the references of horse are really memories of horses from Steppes, then they must also show some appreciation of drinking mare's milk.

Without that appreciation for mare's milk, it is simply not justified to consider those references of horses in Rig Veda as memories.

Of course many other Indo-Europeans today don't drink mare's milk, but in the case of Rig Veda when the memories are still fresh and there is literary evidence of that time, in this case, reports of drinking mare's milk should be considered as a requirement on the AIT camp.

If they can't show mare's milk, we don't need to show horse bones!
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Lalmohan »

the time immemorial beverage of the steppes is koumiss - or fermented mares milk
no trace of even fermented cows milk in desh afaik
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajesh ji, along with memory of drinking or using mare's milk argument, I also like shiv ji argument:
Folks, please look at the map below. I would like to explain a few things based on that map. Please note the following points which I will list according to currently known dates

1. Harappan civilization (Oldest, urban) 5000 BC to 1900 BC (Blue in bottom right)
2. BMAC Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (Urban) 2300 BC to 1700 BC (Ochre-yellow)
3. Andronovo culture (Most recent, pastoral) 2100 to 1400 BC (Rust colored dominant patch on map)

Image
Link to bigger image of same

All of you know that the oldest, Harappa was an urban civilization

The BMAC was hidden by the Soviets till 1990. It was an urban culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2 ... al_Complex
Quote:
The inhabitants of the BMAC were sedentary people who practised irrigation farming of wheat and barley. With their impressive material culture including monumental architecture, bronze tools, ceramics, and jewellery of semiprecious stones, the complex exhibits many of the hallmarks of civilization. The complex can be compared to proto-urban settlements in the Helmand basin at Mundigak in western Afghanistan and Shahr-i Shōkhta in eastern Iran, or at Harappa and Mohenjo-daro in the Indus Valley.[9]


But guess where it is being claimed that the Rig Veda came from? All those horse and chariot burials have been found in the area of the Andronovo culture. So the Grand Poobahs of history, archaeology and language are saying that the people who composed the Rig Veda started off AFTER the Harappan and BMAC civilizations existed. They completely and magically missed the cities of BMAC and went to india. And in India they completely missed the cities of the Indus Valley and Harappa. And all the time they only had a memory of horses and chariots from Andronovo graves and sang about milk and butter in the Rig Veda.

How much more stupid can a theory be made? You have got to be stupid or at least very very naive to believe this. Our history has been messed with by a bunch of blithering nincompoops. I bet my left testimonial that Rig Veda is older than Harappa
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

good argument. I agree, AIT campers must prove they did consume mare's milk to prove the migration based on what milk they drank.

if one considers dairy alone, recent chindu paper s&t section has an article about saharan /african people drinking moo milk - around 5000 BC, from faunal samples.

on the same lines, we should be able to prove by animal sacrifices too. for example: goat sacrifice that is done by jews - supposedly 5000BCE[?dunno?]. Now, we can prove goat sacrifice from indic culture even before, and prove OoI theory effectively.

/apologies ahead for thinking about ahimsa.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23630 »

I feel the discussion is getting mostly one-sided. So, let's have some "Mirchi from Michael" :twisted:

Looks like his views are summarized here:
Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.pdf
(his RV dates are in "§ 3. Dates" after considering Mittani, Avesta, etc)


And, horseplay stories and old debates:
http://www.safarmer.com/frontline/
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Har-veda.htm


P.S: Newbie. Not an expert on these topics. Just Googling around :)
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajan ji, you are welcome to post opposing arguments. Like Manish ji is providing glimpses of why AIT/AMT people think they are right through linguistic arguments. But there is no deliberate attempt to prevent anyone from posting opposing views, so it is not one-sided, but you are welcome to say what you want to say if you have different opinion.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by Rahul M »

RajeshA wrote: So we should stop this search for horse-bones
let's consider a time period we are 400% certain involved large number of horses, say the kushan era or the gupta era. how many horse remains have we found ?

how many archeological remains have we found of the hundreds upon hundreds of aswamedh yagnyas described in history ? AFAIK the answer ranges from very few to none. does that mean there were no horses in those time period as well ?

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in this case.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

For so many centuries reversing back, we (supposedly Indian Aryans or under the leadership of Aryans), we have been plundered, raped, invaded and what not.. whoever these past and history men failed to establish a strong army to defend and chase away the invaders - muslim, brits, europeans, greeks etc. for so many 1000s of years they allowed us to get raped!

now come the brilliance.. the same aryans who allowed us get raped, suddenly appear as invaders (AIT) by moving the clock backwards. How in the world such invaders allowed all future invasions to happen on them?
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23630 »

IVC script is yet to deciphered. In fact, per Witzel, et al, it is not even a 'literate' script
http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/ej ... rticle.pdf

In any case, IVC script/symbols/language/proto-language does not look as advanced as RV. So, we cannot date RV prior to IVC. Plus, all the differences between IVC and RV like urban, pastoral, etc, etc.

And, if we date RV prior IVC, it cannot be in IVC area, right?

i feel we are just taking the easy of way of trashing Linguistics - by that standards, we can trash anything other than Pure Mathematics.

And, i am in search of 'truth', and i have no issues in knowing that all of us came from Africa long before(and from monkeys much before that).
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajan garu,

could you please explain what this means:
In any case, IVC script/symbols/language/proto-language does not look as advanced as RV. So, we cannot date RV prior to IVC. Plus, all the differences between IVC and RV like urban, pastoral, etc, etc.
and also this:
And, if we date RV prior IVC, it cannot be in IVC area, right?
i feel we are just taking the easy of way of trashing Linguistics - by that standards we can trash anything other than Pure Mathematics.
No one is trashing linguistics because it is inconvenient. We are trashing linguistics because it doesnt hold water. Please go through Shiv ji, B ji, Rajesh ji's posts you will then see why we trash. Bring us proof of PIE's existence, where, how it is spoken and how it is written and we will take it seriously. You have nothing but conjecture there and you want us to take linguistics seriously? if you are after truth then let logic and reason show you the way, not dogma.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

may be AIT walas should not have used the word "Invasion". JMT.

but the fact remains in the past where we still have an hidden history. past is more abstract and encompassing, is my view. history is just 0.1 % of the past., and half of the history is again out of context and wrongly done.

we have a big past.. even science digs into the past to discover facts. facts are buried in the past. we have strong and consistent stories to tell., and no invasion theory can erase that.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23630 »

Venu Ji,

My point is that I doubt if we can date RV prior to IVC - RV looks much advanced than the 'IVC script/proto-language', plus other issues.

Btw, 'PIE', as such need not be a red flag for linguistics - it is okay to have 'proto'-languages, and especially when they say it is 'proto' / 'constructed' language as opposed to 'attested' language, and i see google/wiki has that in other language groups also.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Rajan garu, you can't even speak linguistics and Mathematics in the same breadth :) they work differently:
Linguistics:
a. first assume the existence of a very old language, doesn't matter where (most probably in Europe, in Steppes where horses are found)
b. Take the existing languages, find a connection, now from that connection work backwards and 'reconstruct' a language which no one knows how it is spoken and where, and also no knows who spoke it.
c. Assume horse domestication never existed anywhere but Steppe because for now no proof is found else where in India, even if found trash it.
d. Now that a, b, c are in place say with certainty and claim that Rg Veda was composed because horse domestication took place in Steppes because Rg Veda mentions horses
e. Now say Rg Veda was composed by Steppe Aryans and brought horses and Rg Veda to India

Mathematics:
1. Start from fundamentals with what is known. okay do you know for a fact PIE existed?
Ans: No it is an assumption
2. So okay it is an axiom atleast?
Ans: No I can't prove it's existence it is a conjecture, I can only surmise based on other languages and in that I still have problems and absurdities like Tocharian etc which I cant explain
3. sorry go to step 2 and prove the conjecture first to proceed any further if you want to prove AIT/AMT happened as the first step.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

It is okay to have anything as long as it is not imagined and used as pramaana and go about re-writing a nations history and cause artificial divisions among people of the nation. Dravidian, aryan etc are artificial constructs.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

I think you nailed it there.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_23630 »

Venu Ji,

i am also trying to say the same thing that 'Pure Mathematics' and Linguistics work differently :-)

so, in all non-Pure-Mathematics-Sciences, you will similar approach(like the a, b, c, d example you gave nicely - maybe b & a interchanged like evolution study).

now, we just cannot get away saying: PIE is a conjecture. Not Proven. Therefore, Linguistics is Trash. Therefore...

we need to arrive at logical conclusions with available data - best possible curve fitting in maths(not so pure maths though !)

venug wrote:Rajan garu, you can't even speak linguistics and Mathematics in the same breadth :) they work differently:
Linguistics:
a. first assume the existence of a very old language, doesn't matter where (most probably in Europe, in Steppes where horses are found)
b. Take the existing languages, find a connection, now from that connection work backwards and 'reconstruct' a language which no one knows how it is spoken and where, and also no knows who spoke it.
c. Assume horse domestication never existed anywhere but Steppe because for now no proof is found else where in India, even if found trash it.
d. Now that a, b, c are in place say with certainty and claim that Rg Veda was composed because horse domestication took place in Steppes because Rg Veda mentions horses
e. Now say Rg Veda was composed by Steppe Aryans and brought horses and Rg Veda to India

Mathematics:
1. Start from fundamentals with what is known. okay do you know for a fact PIE existed?
Ans: No it is an assumption
2. So okay it is an axiom atleast?
Ans: No I can't prove it's existence it is a conjecture, I can only surmise based on other languages and in that I still have problems and absurdities like Tocharian etc which I cant explain
3. sorry go to step 2 and prove the conjecture first to proceed any further if you want to prove AIT/AMT happened as the first step.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

PIE is a graph - that is all.

The nodes in there are wrong., hence disprovable [I think, they have defined them as assumptions and not based on axioms]... and becomes conjecture.. if you want to call it that way.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by RajeshG »

A_Gupta wrote:If you tried to date the Quran purely from the material culture mentioned in it, I wonder what result you would get.
Instead of Quran, how about "lord of the rings" ? Tolkein even invented his own language for the elves, i think.

Brief history here

http://tolkienics.com/

PS : in addition to the link Arun posted on past/history i would also recommend Edmund Leach's paper "aryan invasions over 4 millenia". Asks whether RV can be considered history - very interesting read.
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by SaiK »

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Post by member_22872 »

Language is more than a database of words and word roots. It has grammar, it has rules of word change semantics, history of roots, interesting word usages, some surprising pronunciations than what can be surmised( eg But). Now where are these in PIE? I too can burn midnight oil for years and make a gigantic word list with root connections to every single IE and similar language families but doesn't mean I have now invented a language. Where is the natural progression? Sanskrit grammar is unique you can take roots of words and combine them to a new word. Now can this be done in PIE, can any linguist give couple of examples? If Sanskrit is derived from PIE, it should be an implicit feature of mother language.
If none of the language structure exists apart from huge database of cooked up words. Sir, you have nothing. PIE then is not even a langauage, yes you can call it a database of fancy words which sound somewhat similar to some bunch of languages, nothing more.

Somebody might then say, just word comparison is enough to compare languges. But then that would be obfuscating the truth. If one draws parallel between two languages or two entities, you are saying quantity A is exactly similar to quantity B in every way. If two languages are similar, they are because they share similarities not just words, but also in language structure. Now if PIE is similar or is the mother of all IE, does it share all the properties and language structure of every single IE language? It's actually a tall order. If you don't even know anything about PIE, know nothing but some cooked up words, and know them because you cooked them up with some rules and you are selling that as mother language of all IE, either I know nothing about languages, or PIE people are selling us snake oil. Take Indian languages for example, you will find similarities between Sanskrit and Hindi, Telugu, Tamil, Bengali etc., but is it true with Sanskrit,IE and PIE?
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