Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Austin
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Austin »

Flight Global

ANALYSIS: India's air force modernisation challenge

By: Atul Chandra Bangalore
The modernisation of the Indian air force is massive in scale and hugely expensive, but should deliver capability that will put the service at the forefront of any future conflict.

At the beginning of this decade New Delhi embarked on a modernisation of the Indian air force on an unprecedented scale. The process is under way as part of the long-term integrated perspective plan, which spans a period of 15 years from 2012. This plan split into five-year periods, from the 12th plan, which runs until 2017, to the 14th plan, which covers 2023 to 2027.

The intervening 13th plan period will see the entry into use of the Dassault Rafale and Russian perspective multi-role fighter (PMF), which is essentially an India-specific development of the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA.

These future types will be backed up by about 260 Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics-built Su-30MKIs, operating alongside 49 Dassault Mirage 2000 multirole fighters, 60 RAC MiG-29 interceptors and approximately 120 Sepecat/HAL Jaguar strike aircraft – all of which will have completed upgrades. The air force's last of 80 MiG-27 ML ground attack aircraft will be retired by 2020, along with 150 MiG-21s, which will be phased out by 2022.

In all, some 230 combat aircraft will be retired from service during the 13th plan, with the home-grown Tejas Mk I and Mk II fighters replacing the MiG-21 and MiG-27.

Dassault’s "omnirole" Rafale offering emerged as the winner for the air force's 126-unit medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement early in 2012. The French company was required to deliver 18 aircraft directly in "fly-away” condition, with the rest to be produced under license by HAL. While a contract has yet to be signed, India’s defence ministry announced in June that Dassault’s offer for the required transfer of technology was compliant with the requirements specified in its earlier request for proposal.

Speaking in March, Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier announced the finalisation of a workshare agreement with HAL. “It wasn’t easy”, he said, but “the French and Indian partners have decided who does what and how they should work together as an organisation.” For its part, HAL will need to absorb technology from over 70 partners associated with the Rafale programme, and chairman RK Tyagi acknowledges that “license production would present plenty of challenges”.

At an estimated cost of $30 billion, the effort to develop the fifth-generation PMF – modified to meet India’s requirements – is the nation’s most expensive defence programme ever. Delays have beset New Delhi's part of the project, and the air force's expected order requirement has been slashed from 214 aircraft – 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat examples – to just 144 single-seat fighters.

A $295 million project definition phase was completed in June 2013, but contract signature for full-scale design and development work is still yet to take place, with programme options also including the possible integration of a higher thrust engine at a later stage. Flight testing of prototypes manufactured by HAL at its Nasik facility is scheduled to begin from 2018, but the overall effort has been delayed by at least three years, and the type is now expected to enter squadron service from 2022.

India's PMF aircraft will be manufactured in Nasik, once HAL has completed production of the air force's Su-30MKIs. The cost of acquiring 272 examples has been pegged at $9 billion, including those aircraft delivered directly by Sukhoi. An estimated 200 Su-30MKIs are already in squadron service, with HAL having handed over more than 150 aircraft from the licensed production of 222.

The remaining aircraft on order will be delivered by 2018-2019. However, to bridge the gap between Su-30MKI assembly and PMF manufacture, an additional MKI order is likely to be placed. This is despite engine trouble that has dogged the fleet and issues with aircraft serviceability, which has also proved problematic.

Today, the air force is in the midst of deep upgrades for a substantial portion of its fighter fleet. The $1.8 billion upgrade of 49 Mirage 2000s will see them remain operational until 2040. According to Nicolas Korotchansky, vice-president, deputy combat aircraft domain at Thales, “Dassault and Thales will help HAL in the integration work starting from the fifth aircraft," with integration work on the first four being performed under the responsibility of the French companies. India's first upgraded Mirage 2000 was flown at Istres air base in October 2013. All 49 aircraft were to receive the upgrades by 2021, but the project is not now expected to be completed until 2024.

In 2012, MBDA bagged a $1.3 billion contract for 493 Mica air-to-air missiles, which are to be delivered between 2015 and 2019 as part of the Mirage 2000 upgrade. To replace life-expired Matra Super 530D and Magic II missiles, the new weapon has a key advantage over the earlier systems due to its 112kg (246lb) weight. This means the upgraded Mirage can be configured to carry four radar- and two infrared-guided missiles.

“MBDA has been working closely with Thales, which has been responsible for the integration work on the first Mirage upgrades carried out at the French air force base in Istres, and [is] training HAL engineers in readiness for carrying out the integration work on the remaining Mirage aircraft in India,” the European guided weapons manufacturer says.

Also moving ahead is the modernisation of the MiG-29 fleet, part of a $964 million contract signed in 2008. The deal was for the upgrade of 63 MiG-29 interceptors to the UPG multi-role standard; equivalent to the MiG-29SMT. However, the loss of three in-service examples since the contract was signed has reduced the programme scope to 60 airframes. So far, work on four single-seat and two twin-seat MiG-29s has been completed, and the aircraft have been redelivered to India. The remaining 54 examples will be modified in India. Local companies were invited to undertake structural retrofit and life extension work on 33 of the fleet earlier this year, with the task to be completed within three years.

A $520 million Jaguar upgrade to the Darin III (display, attack, range and inertial navigation) standard has been delayed and will now be completed by 2020. Efforts to re-engine the entire fleet of more than 120 strike aircraft with Honeywell F125-INs have also been delayed. The US contractor responded to a single-source request for proposal issued in 2012 for 270 engines, and a technical evaluation is now under way.

Darin III-standard Jaguars will also receive MBDA's ASRAAM air-to-air missile as part of a $428 million order finalised during July. The ASRAAM has been designated as the “new generation close combat missile” by the Indian air force. The upgraded Jaguar will also carry Textron Defence Systems' CBU-105 Sensor Fused Weapon, and maritime strike variants of the Jaguar are now equipped with Boeing AGM-84 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles.

The Indian air force took delivery of its sixth Boeing C-17 strategic transport in June, and the remaining aircraft on contract will be delivered by December, completing an order for 10. There has so far been no announcement on orders for a further six of the type, and Boeing anticipates completion of C-17 production by mid-2015.

Lockheed Martin will commence deliveries of an additional six C-130J-30 tactical transports from 2017. The new aircraft will be based at Panagarh air base in India’s eastern state of West Bengal. The first batch of the special mission-configured transports are based at Hindon air base in Delhi. The government has chosen not to order an additional Hercules to replace aircraft KC-3803, which crashed in March 2014, and as a result the service will operate a total of 11 C-130Js once deliveries for the second batch are concluded.

HAL's effort to co-develop and produce a multirole transport aircraft (MTA) with Russia's United Aircraft Corporation has run into delays, and a programme definition phase that was to have been completed by September 2013 has still not been declared as complete. This has delayed contract signature for the detailed design phase, which once launched should be followed by first flight within approximately four years. As a result, the debut flight of the MTA is now expected to take place around 2019-2020.

The MTA will be a largely conventional aircraft, with minimal use of composites for structures such as the empennage. The choice of engine for the Indian version has yet to be decided, with two candidates under consideration. There will be a 60:40 workshare split between Russia and India, and the total development cost of $600 million is to be shared equally between the partners.

India's MTAs will eventually replace its air force's upgraded Antonov An-32REs in service. A total of 104 of the updated medium transports are being completed, under a $400 million deal placed in 2009, with an additional $110 million spent on upgraded Motor Sich AI-20 engines. Delivery of the last batch of five aircraft to India later this year will complete the upgrade of 40 of the type in Ukraine. The remaining 64 aircraft are to receive their modifications at Kanpur in by 2017-2018.

HAL has been kept out of the HS 748 replacement contract for 56 transports to replace the obsolete Avro, which was produced under license at Kanpur. The selected foreign original equipment manufacturer will deliver 16 aircraft, and an Indian production agency from the private sector will supply the remaining 40 under license. India's bid submission deadline has been extended until 28 August, with Airbus Defence & Space and Alenia Aermacchi respectively offering their rival C295 and C-27J tactical transports.

A contract signature for six Airbus A330 multi-role tanker transports (MRTT) is expected to happen soon. Airbus's defence unit had extended the validity of its bids until June at the request of the Indian government. Once the contract is signed, the air force can expect the delivery of its first aircraft in three years.

All deliveries of the A330 MRTT from the end of 2017 will benefit from structural and aerodynamic improvements as well as updated computers and displays being introduced on the basic A330. “Additionally, we are introducing enhancements to the mission system and mission planning system, and the configuration of the Indian aircraft will contain all these enhancements,” says Federico Lacalle, regional sales director for Airbus Defence & Space, Asia Pacific.

“We and some of our customers have always been aware of the potential capabilities of the A330 MRTT as the basis for SIGNIT/ELINT [signals/electronic intelligence] applications, as the weight and power requirements of modern mission systems have grown and require larger platforms," Lacalle says. "It would also be possible to combine the roles of AAR [air-to-air refuelling] and SIGINT.” He says that while some "interesting conversations" have been held with certain operators, "there is no immediate plan to proceed with such a design”.

New Delhi has also invested a substantial sum towards developing indigenous airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) and airborne warning and control system (AWACS) platforms. A global tender was issued in March for six aircraft for use in an AWACS India program. “We have held productive meetings with the Centre for Airborne Systems [CABS] and Defence Research & Development Organisation to evaluate the use of Airbus platforms as the basis of an indigenous AWACS. Those conversations have gone well, and we will certainly be responding to the tender,” Lacalle says.

Development of the AWACS platform is scheduled to be completed in seven years, but realistically will take at least a decade. A $300 million effort to design and develop an indigenous AEW&C system is running behind schedule, with the first of three aircraft to be delivered to the air force next year. Embraer has already delivered two EMB-145s to CABS for this project, and flight-testing is under way. The third aircraft will be delivered by the end of this year.

Airbus Defence & Space is also jointly reviewing the home-grown AEW&C system, along with CABS. The Indian air force already operates three A-50I Phalcon platforms, based in Agra under Central Air Command control, along with Ilyushin Il-76 airlifters and Il-78 tankers. The service plans to have five AWACS and two indigenously-developed AEW&C platforms operational by 2017-2018.

The air force's helicopter fleet is also to complete its modernisation during the 13th plan period. “We are in contract negotiations with the MoD for the requirement of 22 [AH-64E] Apache attack helicopters for the Indian air force. Additional orders are expected, but we cannot comment on timing or negotiations,” says Dennis Swanson, vice-president, Boeing Defence, Space & Security India. The manufacturer is “bullish on finalising the contracts by the end of 2014” for the Apache and an expected contract for 15 CH-47F Chinooks, he adds.

Also to be introduced between 2018 and 2022 are 64 of the air force's eventual 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters, which will be purchased once a long-running tender concludes: the current request for proposals was issued some five and a half years ago.

“The extended delay has become a serious concern for Airbus Helicopters,” the European manufacturer says. “Bid dates have already been extended numerous times, and Airbus Helicopters will no longer be in a position to maintain the current bid without a clear visibility regarding the conclusion of this programme.” The company, which is offering its AS550C3 Fennec against the Kamov Ka-226T, has said that if its product is selected deliveries will commence within 12 months of a contract signing, with a final assembly line to be set up in India.

Russian Mil Mi-17V5 and Mi-171Vs will handle the medium lift role, as older Mi-8 and Mi-17s are retired. Half of the order from a 2012 contract for 59 V5s has already been delivered, and all 80 of the type from an earlier order are operational. With the service having grounded its three AgustaWestland AW101 helicopters following a procurement scandal, the VVIP transport role will now be handled using Mi-17V5s.

More than 150 Dhruv helicopters have been delivered to the Indian military and paramilitary forces. HAL is now manufacturing Mk III utility and Mk IV Rudra weaponised variants, along with examples in the light combat helicopter (LCH) and light utility helicopter (LUH) guises.

“LCH is in the advanced stage of certification, the detailed project report for production is ready and certification activities have been accelerated,” says Tyagi. Basic flight tests have been carried out to evaluate its performance parameters, and sea level trials have been successfully completed. “The detailed design activities have been completed for LUH and we are expecting the first LUH to fly out from 2017,” he adds.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by hanumadu »

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/08/ ... witterfeed

Defence Minister Confirms Livefist Report, Rings Death Knell For Intermediate Trainer
Confirming a series of reports here on Livefist on devastating trouble for HAL's indigenous HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer, Indian defence minister Arun Jaitley today told Parliament that critical problems with the platform had forced the Indian Air Force to look for a foreign replacement. Here's the minister's full statement:

The IAF conducts intermediate stage of flying training for ab-initio pilots on the Kiran aircraft. These aircraft will complete their technical life over the next couple of years. HAL, which has been developing the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), as a replacement for the Kiran aircraft, has not so far been able to resolve critical wing and airframe Design & Development issues related to stall and spin. In order to meet the emergent situation created due to inordinate delay in the IJT project, IAF has already initiated the process for extending the technical life of the Kiran aircraft. The IAF has also initiated action to look for alternate options for the IJT.

The current situation is, in effect, a culmination of rumblings that Livefist reported in 2012. Plain bad news. For the IAF. For HAL. For indigenous industry.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Zynda »

hanumadu wrote:http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/08/ ... witterfeed

Defence Minister Confirms Livefist Report, Rings Death Knell For Intermediate Trainer
Confirming a series of reports here on Livefist on devastating trouble for HAL's indigenous HJT-36 Sitara intermediate jet trainer, Indian defence minister Arun Jaitley today told Parliament that critical problems with the platform had forced the Indian Air Force to look for a foreign replacement. Here's the minister's full statement:

The IAF conducts intermediate stage of flying training for ab-initio pilots on the Kiran aircraft. These aircraft will complete their technical life over the next couple of years. HAL, which has been developing the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), as a replacement for the Kiran aircraft, has not so far been able to resolve critical wing and airframe Design & Development issues related to stall and spin. In order to meet the emergent situation created due to inordinate delay in the IJT project, IAF has already initiated the process for extending the technical life of the Kiran aircraft. The IAF has also initiated action to look for alternate options for the IJT.

The current situation is, in effect, a culmination of rumblings that Livefist reported in 2012. Plain bad news. For the IAF. For HAL. For indigenous industry.
Sad news. I hope HAL (GOI) & IAF continue to support this program just to build expertise in some of those mentioned critical areas even after delinking the product from service requirement. Keep the funding flowing. Rope in private industry and "consultants" (highly experienced NRIs) if required to resolve the issues. We just can't afford more post-Marut like scenarios. If the program stalls, I think many of HAL engineers, especially in the 5-10 years experience range will be looking out for employment options outside of HAL or even India.

Edit: First the NCAD's commercial regional airliner bit the dust and now the IJT. So far Tejas and (AMCA perhaps) are the only two indigenous fixed-wing programs going on in the country. No progress reports about SARAS. Hansa is a fairly competitive product but dead in the water. Not encouraging for prospective aerospace industry aspirers.
Last edited by Zynda on 05 Aug 2014 17:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Ironic (or pathetic?) that HAL ignored the LCA for the IJT (their plane versus ADAs) and this is the end result. This was a problem even before the IJT. AVM Philip Rajkumar directly pointed out RN Sharma of HAL for giving the aircraft step motherly treatment. Several sources noted IJT was the blue eyed bird over the LCA, even though latter was a more critical national program.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Vivek_Ahuja's prophecy comes true!!!

He had said that given what was coming out in the media, it would require clean-sheet approach for IJT.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Surya »

:eek: what would we do for information without Livefist
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by hanumadu »

Can ADA salvage the IJT if it is handed over to them?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

^^^ agupta, I do not agree with your over the top HAL bashing here. While some points are right, the comments are harsh. I will wait for HAL's reaction here.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Surya »

if they had ordered 500 planes, the design would've morphed by itself under the
Surya-jyoth
i of the FOC announcement immediately after its first flight


Hey

what did I do??? :)

The question after this - would MOD allow the HTT 40 funding

At end of day HAL has got too much on its plate and it needs to shed some to new players and focus on the Helos and LCA

If LCA cannot be delivered - its pointless dreaming up fancy new tech

HTT 40, MTA etc need to be abandoned and preferably allow pvt\foreign partnerships
Last edited by Surya on 05 Aug 2014 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

so what are the available options on the world market?

the ability to resolve the last 10% problems and ship working and supported product is the difference between successful and durable product cos and also-rans. in any field
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by NRao »

Austin wrote:Flight Global

ANALYSIS: India's air force modernisation challenge

By: Atul Chandra Bangalore
The modernisation of the Indian air force is massive in scale and hugely expensive, but should deliver capability that will put the service at the forefront of any future conflict.

..............................................

“LCH is in the advanced stage of certification, the detailed project report for production is ready and certification activities have been accelerated,” says Tyagi. Basic flight tests have been carried out to evaluate its performance parameters, and sea level trials have been successfully completed. “The detailed design activities have been completed for LUH and we are expecting the first LUH to fly out from 2017,” he adds.
I found this to be a nice round-up. A short One-stop view.

Q: One that flows from the vids on "State of Indian Air Power" .................. can this be sustained?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Indranil »

Surya wrote::eek: what would we do for information without Livefist
:-o .

I am a little surprised with the reactions here. Which part of this is new? Didn't we known that IAF sent out an RFI about 2 months back?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

So, the LUH first flight has been pushed to 2017? Was it not planned for 2015? And in what timeframe does it become ready for induction into service? 2018? 2019?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Reference the IJT versus LCA
"The problem was the attitude of the corporate management of HAL. Under Chairman RN Sharma, the LCA programme was given step-motherly treatment. Till he retired (in 1997), things did not change," the book says.

Another setback for the programme was when the government gave the go ahead for developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT). The same group of 100 odd people working on the LCA project had to work for the IJT also. There was a division of labour.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/the-tejas-st ... 0-119.html

Took till 2007 for HAL to take the LCA's Iron Bird team seriously. The Iron Bird is one of the most critical groups in the program.
And the first flight happened, the nation applauded it, but nobody hailed Iron Bird team. Dr. B Subba Reddy was transferred to other division for administrative reasons and the program suffered another setback as he was also the deputy director of National Control Law (CLAW) team of Tejas. Some temporary arrangements were done from HAL side to fill the void left by Dr. Reddy, but to no avail. However the core Iron Bird team with the support of ADA was strong enough to deliver the products (the software versions with updates) in time. The HAL saw the Iron Bird team as an unproductive group of people since they were not directly contributing to the production targets of HAL and the approach continues till today. ADA celebrated the milestones of Tejas project with its scientists and between these two approaches, the Iron Bird team was left out unacknowledged at every occasion. The question still remains unanswered: “Whose baby is this Iron Bird, anyway?”

With the project directors of Tejas raising their voices at various forums, the Iron Bird team was finally augmented with HAL manpower in the year 2007 and currently boasts of 18 engineers of various domains. The team is headed by one Mr Sanjay Sharma, who has been associated with Iron Bird testing from the early days. It was his initiative that Iron Bird team still remains capable and efficient despite various setbacks. He also guides a team of 7 highly skilled engineers deputed to National Control Law (CLAW) team of Tejas at NAL. A big section of HAL higher management still remains unaware of the facts, potential, pains and achievements of the team.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/02/ir ... -told.html

I can also quote several other issues with HAL not funding the MMR (LCA) or the DARIN team work was allowed to lapse as HAL didn't bother with retention.

HAL's resources were also (mis)used by politicos and the company looked the other way.

HAL's earlier leaders have a lot to answer for (IMHO) and seemed way too content with HAL's position. Only in recent years do things appear to be changing. Hopefully, RK Tyagi seems to be on the right track, but a lot of delays have already been baked into too many programs.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

agupta wrote:You'd provided an example earlier about avionics development being short handed (ADE). Unfortunately that also falls into the category of inter-org politics... ADE vs ADA vs HAL. And no prizes for guessing which of them was the politically weakest. Is it really a revelation or unknown that Public Sector take home pays were lower than IT sector in the early 90s... start factoring in the Indranagar quarter costs etc and now we're down the standard Public Sector vs. Private Sector job pay and benefits discussions so common in that time frame.

<Not directed at you, Karan>
There have some moronic assertions in this thread about "real" LCA funding starting in the early 2000s... so where the Tech Demo design and development come from - was it all funded by debt until it flew ? Where did the ADA building and HAL buildings and design/development infrastructure next to the HAL Heli complex... all done by the early 90s come from ? Djinn money ???

For a lot of people in this thread, who seem to not have much interaction with real world engg. system development and manufacture, there seems to be no distinction between manufacturing CAPABILITY vs. CAPACITY and so silly claims have been made that its the customers fault that they didn't order 5000 planes and thats why HAL has failed to deliver. The latter can be changed if you order 50 vs 100 vs 200 aircraft, the former is the same wether you order 24 or 224... just the per unit amortized cost changes when you change order size.

Aguptaji, good points. Depressing to see things haven't changed with HAL. About funding, let me add my understanding - our institutions et al are good at hiring people and putting up buildings, and skimp on test infrastructure and development facilities since these involve forex until local alternatives are available. This is not just R&D, everywhere its the same. Reminds me of IA ordering TIs galore, and chargers for every 3 TIs. Finally local units jugaado'fied extra chargers from available materials. It seems to be the way our "system" works. Prvt sector - announce huge new center, hire tons of IIT types at inflated pay in fancy new center, no money left for training and hands on eqpt.

LCA falls firmly into that "khaadi gramudyog" way of working. Key examples I remember off the head are limited sets of actuators ordered and swapped between test articles (flying) and ground based rigs - initial funding didn't permit more & later, sanctions hit.

Similarly, nobody bothered to investigate test beds for the MMR development (one person cited costs) - until AVM Rajkumar put his foot down and got the Hack program underway.

Similarly, for even complex items like FCS/FBW - across the board there was underinvestment & respective institutions either ignored the programs (HAL example above) or struggled (NAL) while ADA sent out file after file, which presumably sat collecting dust because India had many other things to consider.

A private player (really good precision machining firm) pretty much said at a seminar that he was going to withdraw from the program, because "these govt wallahs dont have money and won't pay on time and I cannot keep all my machines on idle with no payment". I think they finally did manage to get him funded but it was indicative nonetheless.

The LCA program runs on SMEs, and the infrequent funding for the program has meant that many of these guys just gave up. We tried to mitigate that by running back to the bigger TATA, L&Ts and asking them to take up the programs, but IMHO, its reflective of our weaknesses in that we are now talking of offsets to vitalize the SME sector instead of really supporting them earlier.

For national programs like the LCA, my take is that there should have been from day one, a "LCA team" with AF, D&D (ADA/DRDO/NAL/HAL/Pvt) and Manufacturer (HAL/DPSUs/Pvt) all headed by the RM himself or a senior bureaucrat or ex IAF or service person with a lot of decision making leeway & ability to herd cats.

ADA herding cats failed without owning the program as it was unable to prevent HAL sulking, IAF disinterested, GTRE pottering around with Kaveri with no clear commitment - all the while MOD releases funds in fits & starts (though things have improved from 2007-10) because MOD doesn't really get the LCA or its one of many things.

We need program ownership in every sense, and clear accountability.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

indranilroy wrote:
Surya wrote::eek: what would we do for information without Livefist
:-o .

I am a little surprised with the reactions here. Which part of this is new? Didn't we known that IAF sent out an RFI about 2 months back?
This part was new to me:
HAL, which has been developing the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), as a replacement for the Kiran aircraft, has not so far been able to resolve critical wing and airframe Design & Development issues related to stall and spin.

August 5, Def Min in Rajya Sabha
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=108006

There was some hope that the problem may have been resolved. It wasn't.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Karan M »

Exactly, i meant true ownership, carrot and authority both. If not ADA (say conflict of interest because GTRE pressurizes DRDO to coerce ADA) we need a post heading the org which would be free of such lobbying and would be hard nosed.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Rien »

Karan and everyone else,

How do we fix the IJT? It's ridiculous to import basic trainers, particularly when imported Hawks and Pilatus already do the job in every AF. What kind of reforms exactly would you like to see in HAL? Privatization? Divestment? We already supposedly have accountability, but it clearly doesn't work.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

well HALs position is always secure with billions $$ of license builds and overhaul jobs. it is navaratna status, a huge PSU employer(means guaranteed state level political backing) and koi kuch ukhar nahi sakta.

GOI has to make a call whether ADA+NAL+Cemilac+ASTE+CABS... should merge, get more manpower and control all design and test, while HAL does the production and cEMilac does the certification.

perhaps that is best approach instead of individual empires and silos. put a strong leader in charge at both ends and break all these inter-org boundaries.

exception could be made for HAL helicopter division continuing to design the LUH and MH but they surely could use more people and funds. global tieups also needed to realize products quicker.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by kmkraoind »

Rien wrote:Karan and everyone else,

How do we fix the IJT? It's ridiculous to import basic trainers, particularly when imported Hawks and Pilatus already do the job in every AF. What kind of reforms exactly would you like to see in HAL? Privatization? Divestment? We already supposedly have accountability, but it clearly doesn't work.
Rope in Mahindra Aerospace (GippsAero), give GSQR and if they are ready, give them the contract.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

It would indeed be a sad day for Indian military aviation if we have to import IJT.

IMO - MOD needs to consult the IAF and check if between more Pilatus an HAWK plus existing level of Kiran Mk2 trainers, the Stage II training can be handled. Further, give the design resolution/rectification issue to ADA along with NFTC to ensure the program gets the required manpower and attention.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Singha »

does any other major AF use 3 levels of trainers?

anyone know the usaf and raf kit?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by merlin »

Singha wrote:well HALs position is always secure with billions $$ of license builds and overhaul jobs. it is navaratna status, a huge PSU employer(means guaranteed state level political backing) and koi kuch ukhar nahi sakta.

GOI has to make a call whether ADA+NAL+Cemilac+ASTE+CABS... should merge, get more manpower and control all design and test, while HAL does the production and cEMilac does the certification.

perhaps that is best approach instead of individual empires and silos. put a strong leader in charge at both ends and break all these inter-org boundaries.

exception could be made for HAL helicopter division continuing to design the LUH and MH but they surely could use more people and funds. global tieups also needed to realize products quicker.
All that needs a strong defence minister to drive things. A strong full time one who has the interests of India at heart.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shaun »

RAF have three stages for flying Jets ,
1. Elementary Flying Training (EFT) using Tutor( Piston Driven)
2. Basic Fast Jet Training (BFJT) using Tucanos (Turboprop )
3. Advanced and weapons training using Hawks ( Jet )
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by vic »

HTT-40 and Hawk between them can play the role of IJT which can be fall back option if HAL continues to make mess of HJT-36.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Surya »

we have already reached the fallback of the fallback option.

at this point HTT 40 has no chance of being on time if it is with HAL - sadly

a derated Hawk or Pilatus is the best option IMO
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by rohitvats »

Surya wrote:we have already reached the fallback of the fallback option.

at this point HTT 40 has no chance of being on time if it is with HAL - sadly

a derated Hawk or Pilatus is the best option IMO
HTT-40 :eek: :eek: :eek:

They can't deliver an IJT which was supposed to leverage our learning from LCA and yet, want the IAF to give them orders for HTT-40. Sure.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Viv S »

rohitvats wrote:They can't deliver an IJT which was supposed to leverage our learning from LCA and yet, want the IAF to give them orders for HTT-40.
How? The IJT was a HAL product while the Tejas was designed by ADA and apparently suffered from fair bit of step-motherly treatment by HAL.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shaun »

Until and unless there is a parallel design and productio agency , HAL will never be competitive enough to address the present situation .
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by NRao »

Desperation mode: Absorb HAL, etc into ISRO.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shaun »

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... -Stake-HAL

For capital or tech. infusion or both ?? or it is opening door for Dassult ??
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by NRao »

Jul 28, 2014 :: India To Sell Partial Stake in HAL
India will sell 10 percent of its 100 percent stake in monopoly military aircraft producer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), a senior Defence Ministry official said. All formalities have been cleared and the 10 percent stake will be put on sale by October, the official said.

HAL, with an annual turnover of US $2.53 billion, is the country’s sole producer of military aircraft. It plans to use money from the sale to finance a $5 billion modernization of the company, said the MoD official.

The government, however, has no plans to privatize HAL by selling over 50 percent of its stake in the company, the MoD official clarified.

HAL needs extra funds to add manufacturing facilities to produce the fighter aircraft that will be selected by the Indian Air Force for its $12 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft program. The Rafale has been downselected and contract negotiations are underway.

HAL has also tied up with Sukhoi to develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft for which HAL will need to set up separate production lines. HAL will need another production line for serial production of the homemade Light Combat Aircraft, which is likely to be inducted this year.

Currently, HAL is the license producer of the British-made Hawk advanced jet trainer and the Russian-made Sukhoi fighter aircraft.

HAL also manufacturers helicopters, aircraft and UAVs, and is developing an indigenous light utility helicopter.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Kakkaji »

Shaun wrote:http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... -Stake-HAL

For capital or tech. infusion or both ?? or it is opening door for Dassult ??
None of the above.

The planned 10% stake sale in HAL is part of the disinvestment plan that is an integral part of this year's budget of the GOI. The proceeds from this sale go to the GOI's general funds and not directly to HAL. So it does not impact HAL's finances in any way.

The way HAL can raise funds from the market is if it is allowed to sell additional equity, in addition to the 10% that the GOI is selling, in the market. This would dilute the Govt's stake further, so it would need GOI's permission. There is no news report that such a permission has been sought or granted.

In short, this planned stake sale by the GOI has no direct bearing on the MMRCA contract IMHO. The news article above is misleading.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shaun »

Is it possible for Dassult to take up that 10% stake??
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

Shaun wrote:Is it possible for Dassult to take up that 10% stake??
It should be traded publicly rather than a single entity sell out. Plus I think there are some guidelines / rules on disinvestment of PSU's to be followed. Check out the Disinvestment Policy at: http://www.divest.nic.in/Dis_Current.asp
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

Absolutely not, the stake sale if any, must be to Indian companies or the retail investors.

No foreign entity should be allowed to buy Indian defense PSU's. However, they should be allowed to create JVs with the PSU's if they want.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by Picklu »

Kakkaji wrote:
Shaun wrote:http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... -Stake-HAL

For capital or tech. infusion or both ?? or it is opening door for Dassult ??
None of the above.

The planned 10% stake sale in HAL is part of the disinvestment plan that is an integral part of this year's budget of the GOI. The proceeds from this sale go to the GOI's general funds and not directly to HAL. So it does not impact HAL's finances in any way.

The way HAL can raise funds from the market is if it is allowed to sell additional equity, in addition to the 10% that the GOI is selling, in the market. This would dilute the Govt's stake further, so it would need GOI's permission. There is no news report that such a permission has been sought or granted.

In short, this planned stake sale by the GOI has no direct bearing on the MMRCA contract IMHO. The news article above is misleading.
I believe someone analysed the financial records and posted a few months (or was it few years) ago that HAL has huge amount of capital lying around in bank FDs and the interest income from them is more than revenue they earn by their primary activity which is to manufacture or service aircraft.

If that is the case, I do not see why HAL has to sell stake to infuse capital. Actually, other than selling at least 49% of stake, govt should simply take away money as well.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by shaun »

Thank you deejay and kajjaji

I have read that disinvestment policy but could not find out how is private entities barred from taking up stakes.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Post by deejay »

No one is barred but the sale of equity has to follow the following guidelines:
Disinvestment Policy
The present disinvestment policy has been articulated in the recent President’s addresses to Joint Sessions of Parliament and the Finance Minister’s recent Parliament Budget Speeches.

The salient features of the Policy are:
(i) Citizens have every right to own part of the shares of Public Sector Undertakings
(ii) Public Sector Undertakings are the wealth of the Nation and this wealth should rest in the hands of the people
(iii) While pursuing disinvestment, Government has to retain majority shareholding, i.e. at least 51% and management control of the Public Sector Undertakings
This as an explanation to your qestion whether Dassault can take up 10% stake. May be some but not all 10%.
Shaun wrote:Is it possible for Dassult to take up that 10% stake??
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