Artillery Discussion Thread

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 07 Nov 2011 23:37

it will be a travesty if india buys guns from foreign suppliers at this stage. we can build a tank, we can build an insas, we can build radars, we can build satellites, we can build fighter jets, we can build helicopters, but we cant build an artillery gun and we go hunting for guns from ex-soviet junkyards.

shame on us. the army have no one but themselves to blame.

jai · Post by **jai** » 08 Nov 2011 01:13

V_Raman wrote:it will be a travesty if india buys guns from foreign suppliers at this stage. we can build a tank, we can build an insas, we can build radars, we can build satellites, we can build fighter jets, we can build helicopters, but we cant build an artillery gun and we go hunting for guns from ex-soviet junkyards.

shame on us. the army have no one but themselves to blame.

It's funny how we end up blaming either the user -Army or the self styled saint min.for all the fiascos. The babus - the ayatollahs of the saint (feels more like sin) min never get blamed because they operate so well below the radar that most of the times people do not even know who are the babus who are sitting on key files and creating what havoc. The chiefs do not have a direct access to the rm or the pm- and are On record complaining to the pm that their inputs are not taken and do not count on vital matters of national security. Most don't know that its the babus who are charged with and responsible for the nations defence ? Has any babu ever taken any position of responsibility in the saint ministry - are there any known cases ? Isn't it time we as a nation including the media hold our babus more accountable ? I would like the babus to come and give an account of their ministries and departments on tv instead of seeing squabbling politicians all the time. It's time some one takes out a rti query on the latest arty gun cancellation. Su 30 was not serving the RUAF before we got it, neither is Barak 8 nor mig 29 k, the same mod had no problems then making the investments - why does this only become a problem for arty guns - that too so late in the game? Wonder who's playing whom for a fool - Certainly seems the sin ministry playing the country.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Nov 2011 02:07

When it hits the fan its the Army that will be blamed.Saying the babus didn't buy the guns will not fly for all will be dead. So the end user has to understand his share of blame will be greater and so has to ensure that he gets the guns.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Nov 2011 03:10

IA not getting the GUN almost seems personal. Lets hope IA getting good artilelry its not taken as insult to Lotus which have to be one of the untouchable , above the Desh and its defence. The whole saga is now beyond contempt , joke and almost a leg over Buffoonery.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Nov 2011 03:12

ramana wrote:When it hits the fan its the Army that will be blamed.Saying the babus didn't buy the guns will not fly for all will be dead. So the end user has to understand his share of blame will be greater and so has to ensure that he gets the guns.

How? What should the Army do, that they haven't already?

jai · Post by **jai** » 08 Nov 2011 03:40

ramana wrote:When it hits the fan its the Army that will be blamed.Saying the babus didn't buy the guns will not fly for all will be dead. So the end user has to understand his share of blame will be greater and so has to ensure that he gets the guns.

Ramana in my opinion this is precisely the problem - the rm and the babus care two hoots for what the chiefs want - this is what the chiefs complained to mms about. The issue is what should the chiefs do when the pm and rm do nothing on their complaints - the only option for them is to either go public - which they are gagged from and it would create a national outcry and amuse our enemies no end - which no self respecting and patriotic chief would ever do, or I fear, try what they can without upsetting the applecart too much given national pride and honour or get demotivated and leave it in the hands of God - and wait to hand over to the next incumbant - in any case they do not have long enough tenures; and prey that no wars happen in the meanwhile. Is there any surprise that chief after chief reports that we are not ready for war. The opposition and media cares two hoots about national security beyond the usual rhetoric so it's a no win situation anyways. Makes you miss Indira and Sam. The point is what and where are the options for the end user ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Nov 2011 03:49

For starters they should dro brochurities and hankering after unobtanium powered weapons. Something in hand that does 90% of the job is better than something that does 110% but not available.

And also the purchase of weapons is much more than a bazar type attitude. The IA needs guns. So whats this nonsense about single vendor for essential weapons. All that stuff which is ok for boots and supplies.

Can the Chief say that?

jai · Post by **jai** » 08 Nov 2011 03:59

I wonder how much say the chiefs have even in the DPP. Anyways hope some one in the integrated AHQ / Sena bhawan reads this and does something to refute the current impasse. VKS should do it - he's anyways got nothing more to loose !

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Nov 2011 04:17

ramana wrote:For starters they should dro brochurities and hankering after unobtanium powered weapons. Something in hand that does 90% of the job is better than something that does 110% but not available.

And also the purchase of weapons is much more than a bazar type attitude. The IA needs guns. So whats this nonsense about single vendor for essential weapons. All that stuff which is ok for boots and supplies.

Can the Chief say that?

While I admit that the IA may have been affected by "brochuritis" in certain cases, that is certainly not the issue as far as the artillery procurement is concerned. Can you point out where and when this process was stalled because the IA was asking for unobtanium? The 155mm/52 cal guns they are asking for are standard frontline artillery and well within what we can afford (Money wasn't the issue anyway). What are they supposed to do when the CBI blacklists half the artillery manufacturers in the world and the congress govt. is scared of buying from the company which manufactures the guns that the army currently operates thanks to an old corruption scandal?
What is the DRDO supposed to do when after creating a self-propelled artillery prototype, they suddenly find out that the CBI has blacklisted the company that makes the gun? The blame here lies squarely with the MoD and the CBI. The Army is completely helpless.

EDIT: As for the single vendor comment, I assume you were talking about the M777 purchase. AFAIK, the Singaporean gun (Pegasus) was trialled and found to be inferior to the M777. The army was looking for an FMS purchase because it was (is) critically short of artillery, especially on the northeastern front, and they finally thought they found a way out of the quagmire. Alas, it seems they will be denied again.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Nov 2011 08:48

so can anyone confirm the FMS M777 deal is also in cold storage due to corruption allegations?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2011 10:32

^^^

M777 will be purchased as it has been designated as a mountain weapon system. besides it is FMS contract, from the Khan land. NO obstruction will come from any source as it can only be used against the Panda land.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Nov 2011 11:07

Pratyush wrote:^^^

M777 will be purchased as it has been designated as a mountain weapon system. besides it is FMS contract, from the Khan land. NO obstruction will come from any source as it can only be used against the Panda land.

FMS route is generally not good for India, since there is no offsets and everything goes to Khan. But in this case considering we needed to update Artillery 15 years back, this is a good short term decision.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Nov 2011 11:13

Pratyush wrote:^^^

M777 will be purchased as it has been designated as a mountain weapon system. besides it is FMS contract, from the Khan land. NO obstruction will come from any source as it can only be used against the Panda land.

Only question is by when since somehow, even the FMS seems to have got into tangles and stuck in trishanku..

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 08 Nov 2011 11:38

Aditya_V wrote:
Pratyush wrote:^^^

M777 will be purchased as it has been designated as a mountain weapon system. besides it is FMS contract, from the Khan land. NO obstruction will come from any source as it can only be used against the Panda land.
FMS route is generally not good for India, since there is no offsets and everything goes to Khan. But in this case considering we needed to update Artillery 15 years back, this is a good short term decision.

Aditya, I think you are mistaken re offsets in FMS, if I remember correctly the C-17 was under FMS & we are getting an high altitude engine test facility under offsets.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 08 Nov 2011 15:40

Aditya_V wrote:
Pratyush wrote:^^^

M777 will be purchased as it has been designated as a mountain weapon system. besides it is FMS contract, from the Khan land. NO obstruction will come from any source as it can only be used against the Panda land.
FMS route is generally not good for India, since there is no offsets and everything goes to Khan. But in this case considering we needed to update Artillery 15 years back, this is a good short term decision.

FMS has offsets. Pls check http://www.indiandefencereview.com/defe ... Sales.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2011 16:06

^^^

The M777 can have an offsets clause

. I am very serious on this point.

The weapon can be made by Mahindra BAe systems in India and then handed over to the IA. With the payment going to the Pentagon. How the transfer of money takes place across different countries will have to be explained by an International finance Ymmmmmbeeyaaa.

Another SCAM in the making.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Nov 2011 16:13

alexis wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:quote="Pratyush"]^^^

M777 will be purchased as it has been designated as a mountain weapon system. besides it is FMS contract, from the Khan land. NO obstruction will come from any source as it can only be used against the Panda land.
FMS route is generally not good for India, since there is no offsets and everything goes to Khan. But in this case considering we needed to update Artillery 15 years back, this is a good short term decision.

FMS has offsets. Pls check http://www.indiandefencereview.com/defe ... Sales.html[/quote]

As the link it itself says it is very vague, I dont we are gettign 30% offsets for it. We are getting a wind tunnel facility but not building parts of the P-8i or C-17's, what about the c-130J deal and other deals.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Nov 2011 17:54

i dont think we really want production for parts of low volume run aircraft programmes - it wont be economically feasible
a decent wind tunnel facility (certainly not easy to set up a really good one) on the other hand has lots of long term benefits

Will · Post by **Will** » 08 Nov 2011 19:17

The easiest way to get the bofors guns which are currently the best as the trials by the IA have shown is to issued a "build" order to Indian industry. That way Mahindra BAE can bid and win the contract

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2011 20:33

I have been looking at the G 5 and the GHN 45 for some time and the more I look at them the more I think of them being fitted with a turret which encloses the breach and has 30 ready to fire rounds. That set up when fitted with an APU, ought to be in the 15 ton range. Can be easily be towed by any FAT. The greatest advantage will be that the Gun will be ready to fire when it reaches action station. 30 rounds and full MRSI capability and 10 rounds a minutes for full 3 minutes. Fitted with a ramp to load ammo or to fire using ammunition from the ground.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 09 Nov 2011 01:47

The G5 and G6 would have been the perfect additions for the artillery regiments.

Its a shame that CBI and MOD cant figure out that we are losing hundreds of crores by having banned them and postponing an acquisition.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 09 Nov 2011 04:45

VinodTK wrote:Indian Army may revive Bofors howitzers
Indian Army may revive Bofors howitzers
By Rahul Bedi
10/19/2011

The Indian Army wants to resurrect its long-dormant AB Bofors FH-77B 155mm/39-calibre towed howitzer programme, which was suspended in the late 1980s after allegations of corruption involving senior government officials that are still being investigated in the courts.

The army acquired 410 FH-77B howitzers in 1987 from Sweden's AB Bofors, later known as SWS Defense AB Bofors, which also transferred the blueprints and other technical details to India's state-run Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) under a licence-bulding arrangement. No units have been manufactured.

Senior military officials told Jane's that army headquarters, beset by setbacks over the past decade in acquiring new howitzers, had approached the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in September to request that the OFB begin manufacturing the FH-77B at its factory unit in Jabalpur, central India.

It wants the OFB to build six prototypes by the end of 2013: two basic FH-77B 155 mm/39-calibre guns, two with upgraded onboard computers and two upgraded 155 mm/45-calibre howitzers.
157 of 448 words

Is there any updates on this news? If the OFB can manage to execute this order, it will instill some confidence in itself. I don't care if it's only 39 cal. I want the gun to demonstrate sustained fire and reliability. Shame on OFB for hiding the blueprints and knowledge of the same.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Nov 2011 05:03

Actually shame on MoD for not utilizing the plans all these years for fear of scandal.

Anyway there might be special tooling etc needed. Stillt eh IA order is good for then they can proof the mfg system by making trial parts. Intresting they want two of each and not three for first article inspection. Could be funds limitation.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 09 Nov 2011 05:22

These shameful people need to meet the humble chappal.

Manufacturing equipment should use jigs and specialized tools. Building prototypes does permit uses these tools due to time & money constraints. Smart engineers would define the jigs during the prototyping process. Producing two or even three pieces of artillery guns is a disaster awaiting to happen. These are equipment that experience shock, heat, explosion, etc. they will be prone to failure.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2011 08:03

I dont think there is any way in hell OFB can just produce replicas of FH77 without BAE involvement perhaps via their tieup with M&M defence. we dont want chini clones that crap out in 100 hrs vs 1000 hrs but look identical.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 10 Nov 2011 05:37

Army's howitzer procurement plans run into rough weather

PTI | 07:11 PM,Nov 09,2011

New Delhi, Nov 9 (PTI) Indian army's plans to procure ultra-light howitzers for deployment along Sino-Indian border have run into rough weather and is expected to further delay its artillery modernisation programmme. After the 1987 Bofors gun deal controversy, army has not been able to induct even a single piece of artillery. Defence Ministry sources today said the process of procuring the M-777 guns from US-based BAE system has run into trouble. "Right now there is no progress in their procurement process," they said. The procurement of these guns hit the roadblock soon after their trials in Pokhran ranges in Rajasthan earlier this year after the leakage of the field trial reports, the sources said. As per Army's artillery modernisation programme, the procurement of 145 artillery guns was expected to begin by the end of this year. After certain objections from rival companies, the file regarding these guns were sent to the Law Ministry for its opinion, they said, adding that these guns are to be procured from the US under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) routes. Meanwhile, the procurement process for 155-mm, 52-caliber self-propelled wheeled howitzer guns has entered its final stages of technical evaluations with the completion of its field trials. Rhinemetall from Germany and Konstrukta from Slovakia are in the race to supply 180 of these guns to the army

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Nov 2011 09:04

Defence Ministry sources today said the process of procuring the M-777 guns from US-based BAE system has run into trouble. "Right now there is no progress in their procurement process," they said. The procurement of these guns hit the roadblock soon after their trials in Pokhran ranges in Rajasthan earlier this year after the leakage of the field trial reports, the sources said. As per Army's artillery modernisation programme, the procurement of 145 artillery guns was expected to begin by the end of this year.

And that should end all doubts on what was happening with the M-777 ( and confirm every jingo's worst nightmare).

Guess FMS or bidding mode or <insert mode of selection here> or even the lord himself cannot ensure that IA will ever see a new piece of howitzer for a long time to come.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2011 09:45

maybe they dont want to buy from US to assure the PRC that there is no alliance?

Doesn't make sense to ask law ministry views on FMS!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2011 09:58

Can Singapur be approached to offer an FMS deal for 155 MM guns.

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Nov 2011 10:01

^^ Then US co will file objection and it will again be stalled!!!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 10 Nov 2011 10:11

^^^ First, to even consider the singapore option, CBI needs to clear all charges that have been levied against STK and remove it from the black list. And i don't see that happening for some time in the foreseeable future, unless of course a miracle happens in the Arty procurement system.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2011 10:18

The whole idea of FMS is that you are not dealing with a commercial entity. The rules which apply for US made item under FMS will also apply for FMS of any other country. The commercial entities involved have no say in this matter. The political heft of the two is a different matter altogether.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 10 Nov 2011 10:46

At this rate, the army isn't going to get even a bloody catapult !

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2011 10:52

The IA needs to stop chasing imported systems and release the GSQR for the domestic 155 MM system. With a stipulation that it has to enter service by 2015. That is the only way you are going to have new arty induction.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 10 Nov 2011 11:40

Pratyush wrote:The whole idea of FMS is that you are not dealing with a commercial entity. The rules which apply for US made item under FMS will also apply for FMS of any other country. The commercial entities involved have no say in this matter. The political heft of the two is a different matter altogether.

Even then, no indian government will risk its neck by going FMS with a company that is blacklisted or was recently removed from the list. They value the power and chair just too damn much. So there is no way an FMS deal can be struck for the STK guns in the next 10-15 years.
JMO.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2011 12:04

Bala Ji,

That in turn brings me to my original point. The Army issuing the GSQR to desi industry.

The best option for the sake of my BP would be to abolish the Arty arm of the IA it self. No arty arm, no need to equip it, no need to equip it, no need to blacklist any one. Automatic CBM for the TSP.

Every one happy.

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Nov 2011 12:12

^^ Problem is that IA will reject the 1st attempt homegrown thing as not gold standard despite not even able to procure a brass standard howitzer for all these years!!!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 10 Nov 2011 12:15

Pratyush wrote: The best option for the sake of my BP .

Let me rephrase this part of your statement to " The best option for the sake of all BRFites BP".

I am sure everyone here has this sudden spike in BP when they read about all the Arty programs going down the drain after years of trials and all other associated non-sense.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2011 12:44

sum wrote:^^ Problem is that IA will reject the 1st attempt homegrown thing as not gold standard despite not even able to procure a brass standard howitzer for all these years!!!

Then they will not get any thing.

Before that stage is reached, the IA will have to issue the dammed GSQR it self. In the absence of the GSQR how can you measure the performance of the gun. If you cant measure performance then all attempts will fail.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2011 02:38

We hear about how efficient CBI is in blacklisting all these firms for bribery but we never see the CBI prosecuting those who were bribed?

Name one official who got jailed for the Denel case?