Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 16 Feb 2010 16:57

SSridhar wrote:Gilani's offer on intelligence sharing
Mr. Gilani said the Indian government “should realise that continuing (to be) impassive in negotiations between the two countries would only benefit the militants and terrorists who were holding the bilateral relations between the two countries hostage.”
OK. We were having continuous negotiations and four rounds of composite dialogue since 2004. Did the terrorist incidents diminish, leave alone stop ? Like parrots, Pakistanis repeat cliched sentences.

Why not ? We keep buying them. Their strategies have so far been successful, why should they stop now?

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Feb 2010 17:17

OK. We were having continuous negotiations and four rounds of composite dialogue since 2004. Did the terrorist incidents diminish, leave alone stop ? Like parrots, Pakistanis repeat cliched sentences.

Ummm, why wouldn't they when they find a ready audience for them here, led by the "leader" of the nation, the PM?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 16 Feb 2010 19:05

Unknown Pakistani group claims responsibility for Pune blast

An unknown group calling itself the Laskhar-e-Taiba Al Alami claimed on Tuesday it was behind Saturday’s bomb attack in Pune that killed nine people.

A person who identified himself as Abu Jindal called The Hindu here, described himself as the spokesman of the LeT Al Alami (international), and claimed the group had carried out the attack because of what he said was India’s “refusal” to discuss Kashmir in the forthcoming talks with Pakistan.

The telephone number that showed up on the caller identity carried an area code common to the Waziristan tribal area and Bannu, the adjoining district in the North-West Frontier Province.

When this correspondent tried calling back the number, a recorded voice message said the number was temporarily not in use.

The caller also gave India’s “alliance” with America as another reason for the attack. Asked if there were any other reasons, he said: “These are the only two reasons”.

“Joh bhi America ka ittehad hoga, hum uskey khilaf jang ladengey, chahey who India ho ya Pakistan (we will wage war against any ally of America, whether it is India or Pakistan).”

He said the group had split from the Laskhar-e-Taiba because it took orders from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 16 Feb 2010 19:09

“Joh bhi America ka ittehad hoga, hum uskey khilaf jang ladengey, chahey who India ho ya Pakistan (we will wage war against any ally of America, whether it is India or Pakistan).”

Hmmm, so India-umreeka-papistan are facing a common enemy only. Should huddle (and cuddle) together only for mutual security and comfort only.

How convenient.

Sheesh, the pookis are getting predictable now.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 16 Feb 2010 19:15

Clearly TSPA/ISI want to deflect focus from the pigLeTs in the Pakjabi heartland to some bogus, amorphous entity in the FATA. Abu Jindal, BTW is the name of the Indian pigLeT facilitator who was on the phone with the 26/11 terrorists.

I see ground being laid for "Al Qaeda" to be blamed for the upcoming pigLeT/ISI attacks in India. This fits in well with Robert Gates' claims and enables MMS and co to avoid facing up to TSPA.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Feb 2010 19:16

“Joh bhi America ka ittehad hoga, hum uskey khilaf jang ladengey, chahey who India ho ya Pakistan (we will wage war against any ally of America, whether it is India or Pakistan).”

He said the group had split from the Laskhar-e-Taiba because it took orders from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence.

It's very obvious. The ISI is trying to show there are splinter groups from the LeT that are 'rogue' and are attacking India, Pukes. Reason of course is Kashmir just like the Paki's have all along been telling. If you don't talk about it what can we do if groups hit out at India.

So LeT== Jihad in Kashmir. (They get moral and diplomatic support from Paki's and get to hold conferences etc).

LeT splinter 'rogue' groups get to attack India anywhere. Pukes cannot do anything about it. Kya karein, Kashmir solve karo to maybe yeh log sudhar jaenge.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Feb 2010 19:36

Pakistan failing miserably in controlling terrorism, says India

Nothing new here. But reading it makes it clear that the only strategy in place is thinking some trick will work and one day TSP will be a goody goody thing. GOI is absolutely confused and it's clear they don't have a clue how to deal with the nuisance TSP has become.

Also one thing is becoming obvious. ISI has dropped all pretense and is exhorting the 'good terrorists' to target foreigners in India. Internal security has to be enhanced several notches.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 19:50

harbans wrote:
It's very obvious. The ISI is trying to show there are splinter groups from the LeT that are 'rogue' and are attacking India, Pukes. Reason of course is Kashmir just like the Paki's have all along been telling. If you don't talk about it what can we do if groups hit out at India.

So LeT== Jihad in Kashmir. (They get moral and diplomatic support from Paki's and get to hold conferences etc).

LeT splinter 'rogue' groups get to attack India anywhere. Pukes cannot do anything about it. Kya karein, Kashmir solve karo to maybe yeh log sudhar jaenge.

harbans ji,

You would have noted that all discussions of mian sharukh has been stricken from DDM channels.

As also less talk of aman ki ashes.

A few more such blasts and you will have tight assed PYTs baying for paki blood and the blood of DDM news channel anchors.

Exactly like what happened after the Bombay attacks.

This tactic of the stupid paki army will blow up in their own face.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2010 19:53

Let me cook up the mother of all conspiracy theories to lull all you unthinking BRFites into a Kandle Kissing Stupor.

Actually the story goes back to 1947. As is known well India have never accepted Pakistan as a separate country. Pakistan is a part of India and its people are Indians who were and are still being led astray. They will eventually rejoin the motherland, and therefore it is incumbent upon us to be kind to them, show them light, forgiveness and give them time to come to their senses and get out of the clutches of dark forces who are misleading them.

This would explain all of GoI's actions. So there you have it.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Feb 2010 19:58

You would have noted that all discussions of mian sharukh has been stricken from DDM channels.

I haven't, stopped watching TV long ago.

Can you please tell what you have observed? Is it after this Pune blast?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 20:33

harbans wrote:You would have noted that all discussions of mian sharukh has been stricken from DDM channels.

I haven't, stopped watching TV long ago.

Can you please tell what you have observed? Is it after this Pune blast?

http://www.dailypioneer.com/236302/Isla ... s-Day.html

Islamist gift for Valentine’s Day
Tuesday, February 16, 2010

Priyadarsi Dutta

The Pune blast has arguably taken some wind out of the sail of My Name is Khan. That the involvement of some Khan rather than some Manjrekar seems apparent should leave Shahrukh Khan grasping for his K-K-Ks on Quranic injunctions towards the kafir. The ‘secular’ chatterati — who claimed victory on Friday when cinemagoers defied Shiv Sena’s decree against MNIK — are now complaining of dry throat.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 20:34

Radical Islamist leader stirs passion in Pakistan
Cleric who had key role in bloody showdown with government insists revolution is imminent

A few days later, several dozen young professionals gather at a rooftop house party for a barbecue that features an open bar serving whisky and vodka. Debate at one point turns to whether someone remains conscious for a few final seconds after they are beheaded.

At one point, someone close to the house fires a dozen or so rounds from a machine gun into the air. It's a neighbour upset over the loud music, the host explains, turning down the volume of a Black Eyed Peas song.

"Maybe Aziz is right," one guest remarks.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 16 Feb 2010 20:40

Marten wrote:X-posted from Afghanistan thread. Wonderful news indeed.
Mullah Baradar, 2nd in line TTP apprehended in joint action by ISI, CIA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world ... el.html?hp

Remember NYT found out last Thursday, so that tells you something of the timing - I wonder how this works - to mollify ISI members pissed off at this actual cooperation with the CIA, they are told - you may go and blow up some Indians???? Or is it, ISI has earned some capital by cooperating with the CIA, so they promptly expend it on blowing up Indians?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Feb 2010 21:42

harbans wrote: LeT splinter 'rogue' groups get to attack India anywhere. Pukes cannot do anything about it. Kya karein, Kashmir solve karo to maybe yeh log sudhar jaenge.

On this one, however shameful it might be, I can see TSP's and its 3.5 friends' viewpoint. Once India gets down to talk, that means all parameters that led to this outcome must be on the table. This is only a logical outcome. So India talks about terrorism, TSP and its 3,5 friends say Kashmir. So just as TSP cannot get on the table, what it could not through force, India too cannot get what it wants. In other words there has to be compromise on both sides. Thus, there is absolutely no way, nada, zilch, that TSP will sacale back its LeT unless it can show visible, tanbgible gains on Kashmir to its Abduls. USA has bought into this, and dare I say MMS has bought into this. The master plan is that both India and TSP can claim victory. And what would this plan be: Joint soverignty over the valley.

A few years back, at the Asia society, Harvard "South Asia" Honcho, Sugata Bose, and I am told boyfriend (or husband) of TSP professor Ayesha Jalal at Tufts univ, was laying out this master strategy, while his masters Frank Wisner, Asia society chairman (I forget his name) were nodding in approval at the good job their "South Asia" boy was doing. Sugata Bose in his shudh almost poetic passionate English & MacAilite demeanour was impressing his bosses. (I was of course the "Hindu extremist" dissenter). Ever since then I have seen this diabolical plan gain traction culminating in the MMS & terrorist Mush love fest agreeing to the same. This is the end game. Mark my word on this. For MMS & his supporters, the goal would be to take Kashmir out of the headlines, even if in slow motion it is slipping away into TSP's hands, so that in the interim, as enough MS back office investment, nuke deal, slum dog Oscars etc kick in, Indian people will have all but forgotten about Kashmir.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 21:46

Wasn't the joint administration proposal for the whole of J+K (including PoK) and not just the valley?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Feb 2010 21:48

A_Gupta wrote:
Marten wrote:X-posted from Afghanistan thread. Wonderful news indeed.
Mullah Baradar, 2nd in line TTP apprehended in joint action by ISI, CIA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world ... el.html?hp
Remember NYT found out last Thursday, so that tells you something of the timing -

NYT found out last Thursday, so there's a good chance Baradar was arrested, say, a week before that. Which would coincide exactly with the sudden offer to resume dialogue by the MMS government... Feb 5th I believe.

Now the Pakis have always demanded something, and when it was given to them, promptly expressed dissatisfaction and insisted on getting more.

Remember how the Pakis acted when Kerry-Lugar offered them $7.5 billion? They threw a tantrum about attached conditions and demanded more.

So in the same fashion, the Pakis had all along been demanding that India engage them in talks (de-linked from terrorism). When they produced Baradar for the Americans, the Americans asked MMS to offer talks and MMS went along. But as always, getting what they had been demanding all along is never enough for the Pakis. So they started throwing the same kind of tantrum as they threw post Kerry-Lugar: insisting that they had been vindicated by the pressure brought on India to resume talks, becoming publicly picky about the talks agenda, etc. etc.

This is why the TSPA/ISI have murdered 10 Indian citizens in Pune. They think their production of Baradar entitles them to more than just "talks resumption" by the GOI. They want to force India to *publicly and incontrovertibly* accept the fiction that terrorism in India is carried out by "non-state actors"... by making India come to the dialogue table in spite of ongoing attacks by the LeT on Indian civilians.

Watch this happen. We will go for talks. In the future, if *ANY* Indian government exercises coercive options (threatens cold start, military action) against TSPA/ISI in retaliation for a terrorist attack, the Pakis will accuse us of baseless warmongering, because in Feb 2010 we already accepted that terrorism against India is not by the Pakistani state but by non-state actors. And they will cite what is happening now, as proof.

Talking to Pakistan now will simply crystallize the abstract principles of Sharm-el-Shaikh into a concrete form that both Pakis and the US will use to beat us over the head, again and again.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Feb 2010 21:49

Gerard wrote:Wasn't the joint administration proposal for the whole of J+K (including PoK) and not just the valley?

And what would that buy India? Except for talk, India has made no claim on POK, while TSP has been salivating over the valley. So TSP gets to keep what it has, while shares what India has. And given the ground realities, its APHC proxies, that only means a face saving "concession" offered to India for its surrender.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 21:52

The US and Pakistan can only beat India on the head if India lets them.

If India insists that Pakistani state organizations are involved in terror, the US can do nothing.
The US cannot compel India to talk to Pakistan. It cannot compel India to hand over J+K.

Nothing prevents India from repudiating a statement it has taken in the past. It can simply say that circumstances have changed. A future government can do as it likes.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 21:53

Except for talk, India has made no claim on POK,

India does claim PoK. The recent protest to China reiterated this.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Feb 2010 21:57

Gerard wrote:The US and Pakistan can only beat India on the head if India lets them.
.

And if we go in for talks now while LeT is blowing up Indian citizens, that is exactly what we will be doing. Letting the US and Pakistan beat us over the head, by explicitly accepting the de-linkage of Pakistani state and terrorist acts against India. That is, doing in actuality what Sharm-el-Shaikh only expressed in words.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Feb 2010 21:58

In the presence of Article 370 and lack of border controls between J&K and the rest of India, any joint administration proposal for J&K+PoK means that there will be a legalised infiltration highway into India jointly administered by the terrorist establishment of Pakistan. In this case, it would be better to complete the unfinished business of partition by hiving off a "MMS/Gandhistan" and retreating to the next defensible boundary.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 21:59

Talks cannot continue as more and more bombs go off.
The reality of political pressure will stop it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Feb 2010 22:00

Gerard wrote:
Except for talk, India has made no claim on POK,
India does claim PoK. The recent protest to China reiterated this.

Talk is cheap boss. TSP has made its claim over the valley through LeT & nuke blackmail. What has India hedged its POK claim on? Toothless parliament resolution?. MMS/Sonia will treat those resolutions as wrothless piece of toilet paper and BJP opposition can only huff & puff. And in case, there will be this fig leaf of joint sobrerignty over PoK too, so MMS can say that India did not relinquish its claim.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 16 Feb 2010 22:01

Check out Ahmed Rashid the TSP analyst. Spelt things out beautifully. He was just on BBC openly saying ISI were protecting this taleb commander for 8 or 9 years, and he said Why Now?

He said this guy was a key negotiator with Kabul regime and his guys are in negotiations with Riyadh for several months now. Confirms what IOL has been saying. He said that the commander is now free to negotiate openly now that he is under arrest. hmm interesting.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 22:02

there will be a legalised infiltration highway into India jointly administered by the terrorist establishment of Pakistan

Do you think any Indian government will allow this?
When they won't budge on Sir Creek?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 22:04

Gerard wrote:Wasn't the joint administration proposal for the whole of J+K (including PoK) and not just the valley?

It is just a subterfuge for the eventual and complete TSP control of all the rivers, catchment areas and the vale of kashmir.

They will bring in large settler populations like they have done in POK and claim that they are all displaced kashmiris.

The nuclear deal and arms etc from america are just to sweeten the pot and last but not the least, a nobel prize carrot baited on a sharp and shiny hook. If we cede control here, hyderabad and junagadh are next followed by some districts in the SR of Kerala and points north.

We will never get a UNSC seat because of the eternally haunting JLN blunder.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 22:08

The Indian state that hasn't budged in its positions for decades isn't going to surrender territory like this.
If it were we would have seen compromises on Sir Creek etc.

For all this talk about selling out to the US, we haven't seen any halting of the Agni missile program, or halting funding for the Arihant and her sisters. We haven't seen India agree to Doha round at WTO. We haven't seen India agree to CTBT.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 22:09

Gerard wrote:Talks cannot continue as more and more bombs go off.
The reality of political pressure will stop it.

Continuing talks is exactly what is going to happen.

The americans and the EU jokers cannot "claim" victory and run away unless this very thing happens meaning the talks will continue regardless.

The bombs are just the pakis setting a precedent for the future.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 16 Feb 2010 22:11

Mushy Boy hints at return to Pureland politics
Timesnow channel too carrying this news at the moment.
Interesting times ahead.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 22:12

Gerard wrote:The Indian state that hasn't budged in its positions for decades isn't going to surrender territory like this.
If it were we would have seen compromises on Sir Creek etc.

There is still time for MMS and SSM to set it up.

Retired babus running foreign policy?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 22:12

Continuing talks is exactly what is going to happen.

Not if attacks continue. Public opinion will not allow it.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 22:14

chetak wrote:
Gerard wrote:The Indian state that hasn't budged in its positions for decades isn't going to surrender territory like this.
If it were we would have seen compromises on Sir Creek etc.
There is still time for MMS and SSM to set it up.

Retired babus running foreign policy?

They won't even agree to pockets of land along the Indo-Bangla border and you think they will hand over an entire state?

If they are so willing to accommodate Pakistan, why didn't they agree to Pakistani demands wrt Baglihar dam? That would have been so simple as a CBM.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Feb 2010 22:15

Gerard wrote:
there will be a legalised infiltration highway into India jointly administered by the terrorist establishment of Pakistan
Do you think any Indian government will allow this?
When they won't budge on Sir Creek?

Unfortunately, the soft border proposal seems to be the plan per this article.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 22:19

Gerard wrote:The Indian state that hasn't budged in its positions for decades isn't going to surrender territory like this.
If it were we would have seen compromises on Sir Creek etc.

For all this talk about selling out to the US, we haven't seen any halting of the Agni missile program, or halting funding for the Arihant and her sisters. We haven't seen India agree to Doha round at WTO. We haven't seen India agree to CTBT.

The chinese are a legitimate concern for both the americans as well as India. We surely have a demonstrated capability for much larger ranges which are only a few screw driver turns away and MIRVed payloads at that.

The pakis can easily be taken care of by IAF assets, second strike notwithstanding.

But people working from the inside???

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Feb 2010 22:20

WTF 'Joint Administration' ? Who from the Indian so called strategic think tank (is there nay in first place ?) is gonna guarantee that terror attacks will stop after such a concession is made ?

To ISI's credit they have cleverly masked the Pune attacks by nudging Illias Kashmiri to claim responsibility , so now GOP's argument about India and TSP being victims of terror sounds even more convincing as far as the International community is concerned.

ISI's focus outside of Kashmir is a very clever and effective ploy for attacks on tourist hot spots or other symbols of India Inc. not only get global coverage but at the same time do not antagonize the local populace in the valley . In fact to be fair to the people from J&K most of the key operators of IM are from other states in India .

MMS's sleepless nights or claims about a certain community having the first rights over national resources and his love for TSP are indicators of dhimmitude, hypocrisy and sheer bigotry . his reaction to 26/11 and obsession with kinky talks has only encouraged ISI and the TSPA and we see an increase in rhetoric from TSP side about IWT, Kashmir and a open disclaimer about no control over the terrorists .

What MMS and his team will achieve is play around with some visa laws in the name of 'people to people contact' , some respite for otherwise defunct PIA and Air parasite , favorable trade conditions for TSP based firms/industry and of course India will receive doll ups of IEDs, fake currency and Kasabs as part of the deal.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 16 Feb 2010 22:21

Gerard wrote:
Continuing talks is exactly what is going to happen.
Not if attacks continue. Public opinion will not allow it.

The public doesn't understand the causal relationship between terrorist attacks and talks. And, as we saw from 2004 onwards, even though the government knew that the talks were causing terrorist attacks in an effort to get the talks to stop, they continued down the same road until things boiled over in 2008.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 16 Feb 2010 22:26

Rangudu wrote:K.Subrahmanyam's analysis has obviously strong merits, given that he has the types of information, access and insight than any of us do.

That said, I find it hard to swallow KS's observations that India should even withstand numerous more attacks patiently so that Unkil can squeeze TSP more and TSPA does not get to use the India excuse.

All this makes sense only if there is reason to believe that India would get something for its pains, or even some reasonable strategic space. No other strategic guru is even suggesting that GoI has such an understanding with Unkil. Read G. Parthasarathy, Ashley Tellis etc. for example.

Even if there is some understanding, this is not too good that we are totally outsourcing self defense to Unkil.

KS' analysis is as close as you can get to the view of the MEA. I personally, disagree with many aspects of it, however have to grudgingly admit that what KS says is more likely than not to be the view of the GoI.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2010 22:27

Gerard wrote: They won't even agree to pockets of land along the Indo-Bangla border and you think they will hand over an entire state?

If they are so willing to accommodate Pakistan, why didn't they agree to Pakistani demands wrt Baglihar dam? That would have been so simple as a CBM.

Baglihar has been a long time in the making, before MMS got on the scene to make a difference.

The Indo Us nuclear deal and UPA -2 has put lead in his pencil. He himself has publicly stated that he never expected to survive the trust vote.

So now he seems to have discovered a calling and like all politicians he wants to leave his mark on history.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Feb 2010 22:30

But there is Kishanganga and other recent projects. None have been stopped as a gesture to Pakistan.

negi · Post by **negi** » 16 Feb 2010 22:30

Gerard what is this line of argument ? reminds me of Patil's statement after 26/11 i.e. "It could have been worse".