India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Garooda]

Phillip ji all your points are good and ideally should be. But frankly it's wishful thinking.
Point is when we ourselves don't have the conviction to carry out what you want the US to..why base your relations with the US on them in the present context? On what moral authority can then we demand that of the US? Idealistically yes.. the whole world should bully up Pakistan to behave like we want..while we do next to nothing. We cannot base our relations with others that way.

I agree. General rule or moral is that we should always look upon ourselves/abilities before pointing the finger to someone else. Which leads me to believe that part of the problems and wounds are self inflicted. As a matter of fact, this attitude of GOI just might be a roadblock from making a drastic progress with other key geopolitical players. Basically the Indian Judicial & Political system needs overhauled and/or re-engineered and fortified with the uptodate candidates before GOI can make its moves to achieve its Interests and Objectives. Otherwise, its SOS different decade.

[Garooda]

I think that is important. One should side with its neighbor when a conflict happens between the neighbor and an outsider. Your neighbor is there to stay forever, but not the outsider. Just think over what Jaichand was thinking and the folly of his actions in the long term.

Vaise dekhe tau TSP is also the neighbor They both are there to stay forever (TSP and Chicom). Dono ke Dono dheere dheere territories hadap rahe hai. I thought the siding business was dependent upon Indian Interests and Goals?

[Garooda]

I think that is important. One should side with its neighbor when a conflict happens between the neighbor and an outsider. Your neighbor is there to stay forever, but not the outsider. Just think over what Jaichand was thinking and the folly of his actions in the long term.

In case of a conflict between China and US, we should ensure the defeat of our stronger neighbor. The fight will anyway weaken the US and that would leave us stronger by default in the neighborhood. JMT

Its just another probability and nothing more at this time. Its strictly an assumption.

[Garooda]

I don't think KS understood the nature of political control in the US, which is strictly enforced through assassinations, media control, vote rigging, monetary manipulation etc. If things continue the way they are going, one very much doubts that the US will be a particularly attractive place in 50 years' time.

Lets be honest with ourselves. Sounds pretty much like 'desi style gundaagiri' Does that make India a less attractive place now or in 50 years?

It can work that way if you can strengthen your defenses to the point where you can impose unacceptable costs on any adversary. India does not have that capability, primarily due to the mental colonization of its elites.

Not just the mental colonization but also due to its own internal vote bank politics power grab, race, religious and caste issues in addition to hunger, poverty and corruption which though united through the 1947 Independence, seems almost like the fractions of kingdoms that it used to house before 1947 (few hundred of them compared to 28 states).

I do not mean to be picky but I also believe upto certain extent we should really clean up our act in time. 50 years from now, what will be the state of the Indian Political System? Robust political system and leaders should also be the focus in addition to waiting for the opportunity to be sucked into the regional power vaccum due to some conflict (that may or may not occur) after 50 years. Let me put it to you this way. Indians are very bright and intelligent in their own ways. Most of the members on BR spew amazing talent with words and research of their favourite subject(s). However will the situation always remain the same? i.e BR members discussing the same issues even 50 years down the road or do you think the elite thinktank hasn't already thought about a way forward with positive progress just the way BR members think it should be?

[Garooda]

May I remind folks this thread is India-US strategic News and Discussion thread.
Anything else is off topic.
No more in this thread. ramana

I felt the same way as I'm reading from page 1 and up until page 20 and then it starts on page 21. This happens almost everytime not just on BR but on several other websites I guess it all depends on how much folks backtrack themselves and wish to convince others to follow/believe/agree their opinion

[Garooda]

CRamS ji
I lived in US for 25+ years and probably a lot older than you are. All that means a squat, however. Nukes will not be used.

How do we know if it will be used or not? Several speculations suggests the use of 'surgical strikes' using 'tactical nukes' (especially for underground bunkers). Definitely not the conventional nukes calibrated to destroy entire cities but the term has changed to 'tactical bunker buster' supposedly aimed at destroying underground targets. I just hope they dont use it. Its just an option at this time (probably as a deterrant?).

I do know that depleted Uranium was used in Iraq (by the warthog).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28355

The "no options off the table" statement intimates that the US not only envisages an attack on Iran but that this attack could include the use of tactical bunker buster nuclear weapons with an explosive capacity between one third and six times a Hiroshima bomb. In a cruel irony, these "humanitarian" "peace-making" nuclear bombs "Made in America" --which according to "scientific opinion" on contract to the Pentagon are "harmless to the surrounding civilian population"-- are contemplated to be used against Iran in retaliation for its nonexistent nuclear weapons program.

The stockpiling and deployment of tactical B61 in these five "non-nuclear states" are intended for targets in the Middle East. In accordance with "NATO strike plans", these thermonuclear B61 bunker buster bombs would be launched "against targets in Russia or countries in the Middle East such as Syria and Iran" (quoted in National Resources Defense Council, Nuclear Weapons in Europe , February 2005, emphasis added)

[Garooda]

CRamS ji
May be I don't understand US psyche (if there is one such). On the other hand if you don't put a time limit, (algorithmically speaking) the problem is undecidable, is it not?

BTW: US public is bigoted and gullible. So much so that if you were to even dress up a buffalo is a human, and declare itself a republican and thump the Bible and trump the pet social causes of reps, including bigoted attitude towards people of color, roughly 40% of public would vote for the buffalo in human mufti. Reason, logic, merit etc will fall on deaf ears for this 40%. Enough said.

Do you think US public isn't aware of this fact? And do you think Indian people are not fooled by it before and after elections? be it US or India? Forget the polticians, in India the task is handled by citizens when it comes to bigoted attitude towards people of color, caste, class while thumping the epics even though some of the parties bank their elections on it. Common now. I do not mean to be critical but we have to see the differences in the political attitude instead of what the politicians do to win elections. Vote bank politics is pretty much the norm. People get screwed in many countries the same way they do in US. I'm assuming that you're a democrat?

[svinayak]

Refrain from comparing US internal issues with India and comparing US social issues with Indian issues. It is apples and oranges

[Prem]

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ch/255335/
Atlantic: Why Do Some Foreign Countries Hate American NGOs So Much?

The Times reports that the United Arab Emirates has shut down the offices of the National Democratic Institute, a nonprofit U.S. agency whose mission is to promote democracy around the globe. The NDI is often called an NGO, short for nongovernmental organization, which might leave some people a bit quizzical given that this particular NGO is funded to a significant extent by the U.S. government. But Wikipedia helpfully explains: "In cases in which NGOs are funded totally or partially by governments, the NGO maintains its non-governmental status by excluding governmental representatives from membership in the organization.Myers calls the UAE decision "a surprising act of diplomatic defiance." He also labels it "especially provocative," given that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was scheduled to arrive in the region shortly for talks with the UAE and other members of the Gulf Cooperation Council.The case got particular attention in the United States because the son of Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood was charged in criminal court there along with a number of others. They were released only after the U.S. government threatened to halt $1.3 million in projected arms sales to Egypt. But the NGO activities were not allowed to resume.For anyone trying to understand why this anger is welling up in those countries, it might be helpful to contemplate how Americans would feel if similar organizations from China or Russia or India were to pop up in Washington, with hundreds of millions of dollars given to them by those governments, bent on influencing our politics. One supposes it would generate substantial anger among Americans if these groups tried to tilt our elections toward one party or another. But suppose they were trying to upend our very system of government, as U.S.-financed NGOs are trying to do these days in various countries--and have done in recent years in numerous locations.

This is a foreign-policy issue that deserves more attention than it is getting in American discourse. Hardly anyone seems interested in the anti-American anger that such activity generates and the diplomatic complexities it creates for our country. The Steven Lee Myers article in the Times reflects the general view that these NGO activists are merely doing what comes naturally to those who believe American democratic structures represent universal values that should be embraced universally throughout the world.
But the arrogance of many of these people is almost guaranteed to be incendiary in target countries. Consider the words of Michael McFaul, once the NDI's representative in Russia. "We're not going to get into the business of dictating [Russia's] path [to democracy]," he said. "We're just going to support what we like to call 'universal values'--not American values, not Western values, universal values." Who, one might ask, is the arbiter of such universal values, and how does one get appointed as crusader in their behalf? To get an answer you would have to travel to Russia, where McFaul now serves as U.S. ambassador.One contrarian voice on this issue is Patrick J. Buchanan, the conservative commentator (and member of the TNI advisory council), who argues that such activity is not only wrong but harmful to American interests. He asks: "Does the United States interfere in the internal affairs of nations to subvert regimes by using NGOs to funnel cash to the opposition to foment uprisings or affect elections? Are we using Cold War methods in countries with which we are not at war--to advance our New World Order?" He replies: "So it would seem."

It would indeed seem that Buchanan's questions deserve at least some attention in the country's public policy discussions. That's because crusades on behalf of presumed "universal values" have a way of going awry.

[member_19686]

Update on the Shaima case which was posted here a couple of weeks back:

Records hint Iraqi woman’s death not a hate crime

EL CAJON — Search warrant records obtained Wednesday in the beating death of an Iraqi-American woman show a family in turmoil and cast doubt on the likelihood that her slaying was a hate crime.

Shaima Alawadi, a 32-year-old mother of five, was apparently planning to divorce her husband and move to Texas when she was killed, a family member told investigators, according to the court documents.

The records obtained at El Cajon Superior Court also reveal Alawadi’s 17-year-old daughter, Fatima Alhimidi, who called 911 to report the attack, was distraught over her pending arranged marriage to a cousin.

A search of Fatima’s cellphone records shows that while she was being interviewed by investigators hours after the attack, someone sent the teen a text message that read, “The detective will find out tell them (can’t) talk,” the affidavit states.

Fatima and her mother were the only ones at their El Cajon home on Skyview Street when the attack occurred about 11 a.m. on March 21.

Alawadi’s husband, Kassim Alhimidi, had reportedly left to take the couple’s other younger children to school, although police state in the March 27 affidavit that his whereabouts had not yet been confirmed.

Fatima told El Cajon police that she heard her mother squeal, and 10 seconds later heard the sound of glass breaking, the affidavit said. She told police she thought her mother had dropped a plate. Ten minutes later, the daughter discovered her mother lying unconscious on the ground, near a computer, and called 911.

A neighbor reported seeing a skinny dark-skinned male running west from the area of Alawadi’s house. He was described as being in his late teens to early 20s, 5 feet 7 inches tall, 150 pounds, wearing a dark blue or black hooded sweatshirt and carrying a brown doughnut-shaped cardboard box.

Alawadi died at a hospital three days later.

An autopsy noted the assault was “extremely violent” and showed Alawadi had at least six hits to the head, with at least four skull fractures. The injuries were possibly caused by an object similar to a tire iron, with a striking edge that is narrow and made of a hard material, according to the records.

The sheriff’s crime lab determined a threatening handwritten note found near the victim was a copy, not the original, the records state.

Authorities have not made public the contents of the note, but Fatima and other family members have told reporters that it ordered the family to go back where they came from.

Police have said that the note indicates the possibility of a hate crime but have stressed they are exploring all possibilities. The family told police a similar note was left at their home in the weeks before the attack, but the family did not keep the note or report it to police at the time.

The possibility of a hate crime has reverberated around the world, especially in the Muslim community, and prompted supporters to hold candlelight vigils and demonstrations denouncing bigotry.

El Cajon police have said little about the investigation since a March 26 news conference, saying they have no suspects. They declined to comment on the contents of the search warrant Wednesday. The FBI is assisting in the investigation.

Some of the search warrant records remain sealed by a judge.

During a search of the home and the couple’s vehicles in the hours after the attack, police found court paperwork to file for divorce in Alawadi’s Ford Explorer. The packet was not filled out, but a form requesting a court fee waiver was filled out in handwriting with Alawadi’s name, address and phone number.

Majhed Alhasan, secretary for the Islamic Center of Lakeside and a close friend of the family, said Wednesday he had never heard that Alawadi had been thinking about a divorce and moving.

“This is the first time I’ve heard of it,” Alhasan said. “About a month ago, her mother, non-married sister and two non-married brothers moved to Texas.”

He said a married sister of Alawadi already was living in Houston.

Police also searched computers, cellphones and other devices. Among the evidence they were searching for was an earring matching a bloody one found near Alawadi. Family told investigators that she usually wore four earrings, according to the records.

Detectives were also seeking any other notes, a weapon similar to a tire iron and any forensic evidence.

Investigators also learned of a previous police contact with Fatima.

On Nov. 3, police found Fatima with a 21-year-old man after responding to a report of two people possibly having sex in a car, the documents state. Officers called her mother, who came to the location and picked up the girl. As they were driving away, Fatima said, “I love you, mom,” before jumping out of the vehicle onto Mollison Avenue at 35 mph.

She was taken to a hospital with several injuries, including a possible broken arm. She refused to talk to police at the hospital but reportedly told paramedics and hospital staff that she was being forced to marry her cousin and didn’t want to.

Rawnaq Yacub, the man in the incident, told U-T San Diego Wednesday that police interviewed him after the slaying and some of his clothes were taken from the home he shares with his family. He said he has no connection to the crime.

He described Fatima as a “best friend” and said there is no romantic relationship. He and Fatima were only talking in the car when police contacted them five months ago, he said.

Fatima, her father and a brother flew to Iraq last week for Alawadi’s funeral on Saturday and planned to stay for two weeks, a family friend said. Alawadi’s father is a Shia cleric in Iraq.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/apr ... ate-crime/

[Garooda]

I contend that America is not as dumb as it looks. but the specific segment of EJ's like the fervent idiots who showed up at Rick Perry's "prayer meet" a few months ago make the broader American public look really stupid and delusional. that segment of the population is fanatically committed to its goals of Christian dominance and they really don't care who the candidate is as long as they get their "domination".

The same can be derived about the desi population in General if you look at the blind worship and support that prajaa provides to the Movie Actors and their role in Politics Kehne ka matlab ye hai bhaisaahab..ki kauey sub jagah kaale hee rehte hai Be it India or US. One musn't generalize based on the 'prayer meet' which I'm assuming you saw that on Television

there is a 'new' ideology picking up among certain EJ sections in US. Dominionism, it's called. basically it says that Christians have the right and duty to dominate and rule the world. have seen some influential EJ figureheads advocating for it. perhaps, it's the EJ version of a more dumbed down and rabid mobilization tactic? the meltdown, Arab Spring, etc are happening too fast, and perhaps there are segments in US which believe it's time for a "distraction" at home. a rabid delirium induced by nonsensical theological interpretations and consequent opium-like effect on the masses might perhaps be needed, according to some well established "pillars" of American power?!?

And how soon did he pull out of the race? Rick Perry that is. In another words, even the puppet masters know that the shite will not fly with the rest of the populus but only among a certain group.

[Garooda]

Carl, They are not doing India a favor. They are utilizing the best brains they can get for their money to help revive their economy. In all the recent downturns from Y2K and dotcom bust onwards it was the use of Indian labor force that revived the US companies. They did it two ways: moved their R&D centers to India and brought in high skilled workers. If it werent for that the US high tech companies would have been swamped by South Korean chabols.
One of these days they will give taxt incentives for workers in such important fields!

I totally agree with you. US is not doing India any favor, rather it is helping itself. So it is US which owes India and not the other way round.

That didn't sound right. Ofcourse the companies that are in the business which invests in India. Not the US Government. Its the Businesses that are really making the money. However it works both ways. How much of the Indian population also benefited from the exodus? There are tonnes of websites with good news when the mass exodus of IT profession was taking place back in the 90's. Alternatively, it also boomed other sectors in India such as resl estate, air lines, cellular service providers, automobile, real estate development etc etc. So do you think the move only benefited US or it actually has hurt their technically qualified workforce (which many that are still unemployed). Its a simple math. Its profit driven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatio ... y_in_India

[Garooda]

Pentagon commander says US special forces in India

Leads me to wonder if this is a covert US programme to locate special forces under a diplomatic cloak of US Embassy/Consulate security without the knowledge of the host countries. Our Government should investigate this aspect and any US diplomatic personnel found to be disguised Special Forces operatives should be declared persona non grata and booted out of India,

Or it could be a legitimate info except that GOI doesn't want to look bad or send a bad message to some of its geopolitical friends.
Possibilities are endless. Nobody in the intelligence community will share info easily be it India or US. Disinformation will keep the masses occupied and pondering all over the world..including BR Forums

[Garooda]

Why the Heck are we exercising with these perverts at all,especially when their political amd military bosses have done nothing for 20 years?! Their track record in Iraq,Af-Pak,etc. is simply despicable.Murder,rape,torture are the norm for US forces and this despicable and debased character should not rub off onto our valiant jawans.

War crimes are nothing new with the valiant jawans either. Its just they are not discussed openly anywhere.
http://www.indiatogether.org/peace/kash ... /indhr.htm

[Garooda]

Its not about what the US is doing.. its what Indians and their leftist culture has allowed others to dictate to India.

Agree. This is definitely a big issue. While I agree that foreign policies of other nations are not in GOI's interests, the real damage is being inflicted from within. This should be a bigger priority too amongst others.

[Garooda]

this has slipped into an indictment of the US Constitution and justice system.

It was perfectly okay when you were praising American justice system (see below). But when other pointed out its faults you are experiencing takleef. How unfortunate.

That is the system in this country and I frankly prefer it to the VIP justice system in India

I dont think he felt bad about that. The way I look at it, how would you feel if I discussed the existing British Justice system in India which needs a major overhaul and that the judicial system is biased towards the backward castes and the rich folks? Shall we discuss the day to day crimes committed in India and the judicial outcomes of the convicted individuals? Lets start with Delhi

The topic is only discussed here just because the guy is a desi. Yet the same situation in India, nobody really cares as its a day to day occurrence.

[Garooda]

the problem is with Indians going gaga over Jindal. the fact that he is a Christian convert should make him the greatest traitor. but instead, they were and still are more than ready to identify him as "one of their own". this allows the guy to be an "internal dissenter" and loosen the unity from the inside, so to speak. if instead, Indians had denied him the use of his "Indianness", he wouldn't be in the position to post cute little twitter messages. the concept of US vs. THEM is lacking. when he abandons his dharma and accepts Christianity, he no longer is a part of "US". otherwise, a few like him are used as "voices of dissent".

That sounded very racist now Being christian is a traitor? If thats the case then why are there Indians and Muslims in India whose heritage really dates back to being hindus (most likely of a lower caste) Do you think all the Christians allows for 'internal dissenter' and loosen the unity from within India? Or has it so far?

[Rahul M]

Why the Heck are we exercising with these perverts at all,especially when their political amd military bosses have done nothing for 20 years?! Their track record in Iraq,Af-Pak,etc. is simply despicable.Murder,rape,torture are the norm for US forces and this despicable and debased character should not rub off onto our valiant jawans.

War crimes are nothing new with the valiant jawans either. Its just they are not discussed openly anywhere.
http://www.indiatogether.org/peace/kash ... /indhr.htm

oh really ?

you had to trot that out as proof ? how about some choice quotes from hafeez saeed while you are at it ?

the america rakshaks on this forum are getting insufferable.

[Garooda]

It seems that anything on this forum is now pre judged to be non Indian if you choose to go against the contrary opinion. So much for mob mentality huh? And we blame the Americans for not being tolerant

I agree The funny part is that many of them with this mentality are Indians living in the U.S The sad reality is that the judiciary system is just as flawed and corrupted in India and so is the caste, class system. Yet nobody would like to address the issues at hand in India Its one of things that I never liked is hypocricy. I can see how the faulty foreign policies of other countries can be a problem for GOI's interest but when folks get into mud slinging, they should atleast be true to their conscious first before making big statements about someone else. This has nothing to do with liking or dislking a particular nationality or race or caste or creed I have noticed a lot of individuals on this forum with such mentality. Khud ke ghar mei itne saare lafde chal rahe hai aur doosron ke ghar mei kyaa galat ho rahaa hai, usme loag dilchaspi zyaada leta hai.

Being a Bharat Rakshak doesn't mean to develop a hypocritical attitude towards what is right. Eventually the hypocricy will weaken and demolish from within. Its simply the nature of the beast.

[abhishek_sharma]

I dont think he felt bad about that.

Thanks for informing me. How do you know?

The way I look at it, how would you feel if I discussed the existing British Justice system in India which needs a major overhaul and that the judicial system is biased towards the backward castes and the rich folks? Shall we discuss the day to day crimes committed in India and the judicial outcomes of the convicted individuals? Lets start with Delhi

How would I feel? I wouldn't care as long as you discuss it in the correct thread. Actually there are more than enough threads where Indian problems are being discussed. You might get time to read them if you stop pontificating.

[Garooda]

you had to trot that out as proof ? how about some choice quotes from hafeez saeed while you are at it ?

the america rakshaks on this forum are getting insufferable.

Ofcourse if only thing you want to read is opinions without links, then sure I can play along too sirji. It is to make a point that the Jawans
are not going to learn anything new that they havn't learned already in combat.

You are a Forum Moderator. At the least, you should not be biased about the members opinions i.e if you think I am insufferable.
After all there is truth to the link I posted. Why deny?

BR is not the place to make anti-India propaganda. I am sure you can find better places to do that.
Rahul.

[Garooda]

I dont think he felt bad about that.

Thanks for informing me. How do you know?

The way I look at it, how would you feel if I discussed the existing British Justice system in India which needs a major overhaul and that the judicial system is biased towards the backward castes and the rich folks? Shall we discuss the day to day crimes committed in India and the judicial outcomes of the convicted individuals? Lets start with Delhi

How would I feel? I wouldn't care as long as you discuss it in the correct thread. Actually there are more than enough threads where Indian problems are being discussed. You might get time to read them if you stop pontificating.

Just the way you felt about his opinion and commented. Very simple

Really? It is being discussed on this thread and I responded to one of the response. Why turn the blind eye while we're discussing the judicial system
on this thread?

[Raja Bose]

Sorry but the allegations of hypocrisy are just a fig leaf. The sentiments Garooda expresses are quite common amongst SDREs and can be summed up as "Hey we are so bad. How can we even dare to think others can be bad as well". Unfortunately I am yet to see citizens of any other country indulge in such behavior - it doesn't mean that those countries are perfect or 'better', in fact far from it.

[Rahul M]

garooda, thank you for telling me how to moderate BR. let me start by issuing board warnings for repeated off topic postings even after 2 mods cautioning against it.

p.s. your urge to bring in India for each and every US related topic does not show your lack of hypocrisy.
it merely shows
a) you suffer from an unresolved inferiority complex. the discomfort you are suffering from when a couple of flaws of US are pointed out shows your blind unthinking faith.
b) your lack of understanding about how to argue with facts and logic. what you are doing is called 'torn shirt open fly' argument in these parts. it doesn't amount to much more than rhetoric.
let's say we agree, India is baaad. that still doesn't make the warts of US go away.

[abhishek_sharma]

Really? It is being discussed on this thread and I responded to one of the response. Why turn the blind eye while we're discussing the judicial system
on this thread?

well, since the mods have already intervened, I don't need to say anything.

[Garooda]

Why do some Indians start attacking India and Indians when the matter of discussion is/are issues in US?

Dr Shiv, on appropriate threads/occasions has been really hard on India/Indians too, but I really dont get the need to bring out a prejudiced caricature of India out of the Economist if the weakness of US are being discussed.

Its a two way street. However I thought the topic is 'India-Us Strategic News and Discussion'. Just as many other threads, this one has swirved off its due course

[svinayak]

"devesh" I contend that America is not as dumb as it looks. but the specific segment of EJ's like the fervent idiots who showed up at Rick Perry's "prayer meet" a few months ago make the broader American public look really stupid and delusional. that segment of the population is fanatically committed to its goals of Christian dominance and they really don't care who the candidate is as long as they get their "domination".

The same can be derived about the desi population in General if you look at the blind worship and support that prajaa provides to the Movie Actors and their role in Politics Kehne ka matlab ye hai bhaisaahab..ki kauey sub jagah kaale hee rehte hai Be it India or US. One musn't generalize based on the 'prayer meet' which I'm assuming you saw that on Television

India is not in the business of becoming the leader of the free world. India is not a superpower and is not in the business of dominating other countries. Indian internal society does not affect other countries and Indian media does not do propaganda of Indian values for others to emulate. India does not comment on the social values of other countries.
Do not compare India with other countries.

[Garooda]

garooda, thank you for telling me how to moderate BR. let me start by issuing board warnings for repeated off topic postings even after 2 mods cautioning against it.

p.s. your urge to bring in India for each and every US related topic does not show your lack of hypocrisy.
it merely shows
a) you suffer from an unresolved inferiority complex. the discomfort you are suffering from when a couple of flaws of US are pointed out shows your blind unthinking faith.
b) your lack of understanding about how to argue with facts and logic. what you are doing is called 'torn shirt open fly' argument in these parts. it doesn't amount to much more than rhetoric.
let's say we agree, India is baaad. that still doesn't make the warts of US go away.

I am not telling you how to moderate. What are repeated off topic postings? The topic is 'India-US Strategic News and Dicussion'. I saw several posts which doesn't even pertain to the topic and participated. What is wrong with that? And to your psycho analysis, No. I do not suffer from inferiority complex. I am not a BC or anything if thats what you are trying to imply I'm only basing my opinions (not faith) based upon my uneducated grandmother's moral stories which simply implied to do the right thing and look at yourself first before passing judgement and comments or finding flaws with others.
I am not argueing but only attempting to present some of the facts via links which is not even a foreign link but India based link with indian writers and contributors (Bangalore based). But you consider that as an attempt to promote anti-india propoganda which it is not. I agree the US warts will not disappear magically but what is wrong if we compare whats being discussed about another nation and reflect back upon ourselves? Certainly lyeing to ourselves is not going to help thinnking that domestic problems will take care of itself while we focus on the Geopolitics.

[Garooda]

Sorry but the allegations of hypocrisy are just a fig leaf. The sentiments Garooda expresses are quite common amongst SDREs and can be summed up as "Hey we are so bad. How can we even dare to think others can be bad as well". Unfortunately I am yet to see citizens of any other country indulge in such behavior - it doesn't mean that those countries are perfect or 'better', in fact far from it.

No sirji. Unfortunately that is not the case. I do not wish to elaborate any further since I already noticed that expressing opinions in favor of the forum or individuals is a requirement. What is wrong in evaluating our own attitudes first before we analyze others?

[Garooda]

"devesh" I contend that America is not as dumb as it looks. but the specific segment of EJ's like the fervent idiots who showed up at Rick Perry's "prayer meet" a few months ago make the broader American public look really stupid and delusional. that segment of the population is fanatically committed to its goals of Christian dominance and they really don't care who the candidate is as long as they get their "domination".

The same can be derived about the desi population in General if you look at the blind worship and support that prajaa provides to the Movie Actors and their role in Politics Kehne ka matlab ye hai bhaisaahab..ki kauey sub jagah kaale hee rehte hai Be it India or US. One musn't generalize based on the 'prayer meet' which I'm assuming you saw that on Television

India is not in the business of becoming the leader of the free world. India is not a superpower and is not in the business of dominating other countries. Indian internal society does not affect other countries and Indian media does not do propaganda of Indian values for others to emulate. India does not comment on the social values of other countries.
Do not compare India with other countries.

I am not comparing India. I am only participating in a thread and discussion and presenting my opinion.

[Raja Bose]

No sirji. Unfortunately that is not the case. I do not wish to elaborate any further since I already noticed that expressing opinions in favor of the forum or individuals is a requirement. What is wrong in evaluating our own attitudes first before we analyze others?

No sirji, what you have done is already formed a biased opinion of your own about the forum and its other members. There is nothing wrong with evaluating oneself but that in itself has no connection to analyzing others - there is no serializability constraint or requirement. Both go hand-in-hand. Would you also suggest to the US that they 1st look at the war crimes their troops commit and the millions of civilians their regime change adventures kill before issuing human rights reports and directives on other nations? Becoz they are certainly not doing that and have never done that. Whether you like it or not, the world is neither a fair place nor a place for goody-two-shoes behavior and given human behavior, it will never be.

[Garooda]

No sirji. Unfortunately that is not the case. I do not wish to elaborate any further since I already noticed that expressing opinions in favor of the forum or individuals is a requirement. What is wrong in evaluating our own attitudes first before we analyze others?

No sirji, what you have done is already formed a biased opinion of your own about the forum and its other members. There is nothing wrong with evaluating oneself but that in itself has no connection to analyzing others - there is no serializability constraint or requirement. Both go hand-in-hand. Would you also suggest to the US that they 1st look at the war crimes their troops commit and the millions of civilians their regime change adventures kill before issuing human rights reports and directives on other nations? Becoz they are certainly not doing that and have never done that. Whether you like it or not, the world is neither a fair place nor a place for goody-two-shoes behavior and given human behavior, it will never be.

Well ok. My remark about the forum and its other members wasn't called for and I take that back. However what I was trying to express is that the forum opinions generally tend to focus on the negativity and not much on the fix to the geopolitical issues on hand. I saw several comments and efforts from individuals to bring the topic and discussion back on track and away from the local news which are not 'strategic' to the Indo - US discussion.

[devesh]

The same can be derived about the desi population in General if you look at the blind worship and support that prajaa provides to the Movie Actors and their role in Politics Kehne ka matlab ye hai bhaisaahab..ki kauey sub jagah kaale hee rehte hai Be it India or US. One musn't generalize based on the 'prayer meet' which I'm assuming you saw that on Television

Garooda ji,
indeed, we must always strive to have opposing viewpoints. it is generally very healthy for positive debate. but I don't see the use of bringing India into this. we don't need some "equal-equal permit/license" to critique America. history and critiques of countries are often done independently. just like when writing US history, one doesn't compare to France and say "oh! see the French have those issues too", there is no need to bring in India. every country is and should be critiqued independently without the need to bring in other countries.

but of course, if the idea is that this is an Indian forum, and therefore is participated in most heavily by Indians, and therefore the critique of US comes from Indians >> then this leads to the bigoted hypocrisy of saying that Indians can't discuss other countries fairly and independently. that they do not have the right to such criticism, which all other countries and nation states do.

but indeed, we do need fair and balanced criticism of USA. so, in the angle of Christian imperialism, and EJ activities, perhaps it is best to compare USA with Northern and Scandinavian Europe! b/c the most active Christian proselytizing sects in India are EJ's of USA and Lutheran Protestants of Northern Europe, followed by RCC interests.

[shiv]

I agree The funny part is that many of them with this mentality are Indians living in the U.S The sad reality is that the judiciary system is just as flawed and corrupted in India and so is the caste, class system. Yet nobody would like to address the issues at hand in India Its one of things that I never liked is hypocricy. I can see how the faulty foreign policies of other countries can be a problem for GOI's interest but when folks get into mud slinging, they should atleast be true to their conscious first before making big statements about someone else.

You are right. I don't like hypocricy either. The spelling always confuses me.

The Bible says:

You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

First clean up your own house before looking at the dirt in someone else's house. This is a powerful argument and you have made it well. But thank you for being bold enough to admit that all the accusations made about the US are true and accurate and thanks for appealing to people to clean up the crap in India before talking about the crap in the US.

But that crap does exist in the US right? This thread is about the US. There are other threads for Indian crap. Your well intentioned caution is well taken, but I suppose it would be unfair if i accused you of trying to change the subject from criticism of the US to criticism of India. Please tell me that I am wrong. I mean I admit I am a lazy bum who never did well in anything, but that has never stopped me from being critical of hypocrites and cheats. If I followed your advice I would first have to improve myself first and then criticize those hypocrites and cheats no? I mean every Indian will have to undergo agni-pariksha before saying one lousy word about USA simply because India is such a bullshit country. India is the pits by so many parameters and you can't really compare with America, which exists on a different plane. One actually has to go to America to learn about India. No?

[Garooda]

But that crap does exist in the US right? This thread is about the US. There are other threads for Indian crap. Your well intentioned caution is well taken, but I suppose it would be unfair if i accused you of trying to change the subject from criticism of the US to criticism of India. Please tell me that I am wrong. I mean I admit I am a lazy bum who never did well in anything, but that has never stopped me from being critical of hypocrites and cheats. If I followed your advice I would first have to improve myself first and then criticize those hypocrites and cheats no? I mean every Indian will have to undergo agni-pariksha before saying one lousy word about USA simply because India is such a bullshit country. India is the pits by so many parameters and you can't really compare with America, which exists on a different plane. One actually has to go to America to learn about India. No?

No you are not wrong. Yes the crap exists in US and I never denied that. I thought the thread was about India-US Stratetic News and Discussion. Yet it tends to focus on non-strategic issues. Basically if the only intention of discussion is to criticize anyone and everyone then sure the thread works. But if one has a false sense of hope that everything on the homefront is perfect and that the opponent is weak and corrupted will certainly not help the cause in the long run. It has to move past the criticizm point and advance. I am not advicing anyone. I expressed my opinions. People are free to express their opinions and criticize as they wish. But the basic foundation and internal issues are what the opponents look for to crack open a way.

[JwalaMukhi]

Here is an example of how sensitive issue is addressed. Desis have contacts at different levels with the us populace, but nothing close to the real street view level. Then most of apologists in the below case would eloquently talk about apple pie from the quote below conveniently forgetting the part of violence against women. But the same apologists will become experts on matters of suttee, female genocide etc., in India.

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/04/149992601 ... use-speech

Here is Congresswoman Moore on the floor of the House last week.

REPRESENTATIVE GWEN MOORE: But really brought up some terrible memories for me, of having, you know, boys sit in a locker room and sort of bet that I, the A kid, couldn't be had. And then the appointed boy, when he saw that I wasn't going to be so willing, completed a date rape and then took my underwear to display it to the rest of the boys. I mean, this is what American women are facing.

MARTIN: And Representative Gwen Moore joins us now. Thank you so much for joining us.

MOORE: Oh, thank you for having this conversation with me, Michel.

MARTIN: And can I just say how sorry I am that this happened to you?
And I wanted to get away from the talking points and the poll tested words and phrases that we spend hours and hours and hours on to really raise the specter that the Violence Against Women Act has saved lives. And, you know, I wish that the story I told was just an isolated experience, but my experience has been that, literally, I have faced sexual assault and violence from a little bitty girl, all the way through up to adult life, even after I gave birth to my daughter. Because I think that violence against women is as American as apple pie.

I think that boys - that those boys that I talked about - didn't think they were doing anything wrong. I think they thought that this was their right to passage. I think that men who are assaulting their wives, or men in intimate relationships, arrogate to themselves the right, as a man, to do that.

[shiv]

But if one has a false sense of hope that everything on the homefront is perfect and that the opponent is weak and corrupted will certainly not help the cause in the long run. It has to move past the criticizm point and advance. I am not advicing anyone. I expressed my opinions. People are free to express their opinions and criticize as they wish. But the basic foundation and internal issues are what the opponents look for to crack open a way.

I am expressing my opinion too. There is a tendency - a "tripping point" if you like when criticism of the US on this thread invites counter criticism of India. That is what is so curious to me.

Merely stating that this thread has veered off topic is one thing. A few people did that. But you chose to continue to stay off topic and selected counter criticism of India with a sly insinuation that people who are criticizing the US are
1. "Nobody would like to address" the same or worse problems in India
and
2. That people have a "false sense of hope" that everything on the home front is perfect.

This is a specious and unnecessary argument. All you are doing is resorting to what I have called as a torn shirt versus open fly argument. I say you have a torn shirt. You say "So what? Your fly is open" Neither the torn shirt nor open fly vanish. They remain as they are but all you have done is to steer the discussion away from your torn shirt to my open fly. I am informed that the technical term for this rhetorical tactic is "tu quoque"

But you have gone beyond that now and are saying that at least some people on here have " a false sense of hope that everything on the homefront is perfect". Could you please point me to any post that makes such a claim?

[Garooda]

Devesh

Garooda ji,
indeed, we must always strive to have opposing viewpoints. it is generally very healthy for positive debate. but I don't see the use of bringing India into this. we don't need some "equal-equal permit/license" to critique America.

I agree and believe the same upto certain extent that posing opposing viewpoints actually brings forth some very interesting topics and discussions. Nobody needs a permit and never implied that as well. I started reading the thread from page 1 and started posting messages to some of the viewpoints expressed upto page 35 I think. I am looking at the overall thread and there are pages and pages of nothing but negative energy which is not doing any good or doing any harm to anyone except the ones caught up in the critical web.

but of course, if the idea is that this is an Indian forum, and therefore is participated in most heavily by Indians, and therefore the critique of US comes from Indians >> then this leads to the bigoted hypocrisy of saying that Indians can't discuss other countries fairly and independently. that they do not have the right to such criticism, which all other countries and nation states do.

No. I should have been more accurate about it as I meant to imply 'NRI' and not Indian Citizens residing in India.

but indeed, we do need fair and balanced criticism of USA. so, in the angle of Christian imperialism, and EJ activities, perhaps it is best to compare USA with Northern and Scandinavian Europe! b/c the most active Christian proselytizing sects in India are EJ's of USA and Lutheran Protestants of Northern Europe, followed by RCC interests.

That would be a healthy discussion I think. Since there has been discussions about attacks against them in India by so called hindu extremists and it has caught some attention in the US.

[Garooda]

But if one has a false sense of hope that everything on the homefront is perfect and that the opponent is weak and corrupted will certainly not help the cause in the long run.

This is a specious and unnecessary argument. All you are doing is resorting to what I have called as a torn shirt versus open fly argument. I say you have a torn shirt. You say "So what? Your fly is open" Neither the torn shirt nor open fly vanish. They remain as they are but all you have done is to steer the discussion away from your torn shirt to my open fly.
But you have gone beyond that now and are saying that at least some people on here have " a false sense of hope that everything on the homefront is perfect". Could you please point me to any post that makes such a claim?

It was a general statement not aimed at any particular individual with respect to the 'false sense of hope'. I indicated 'If one has a false sense of hope' which means if they do not then it does not apply to them. You have to realize that I was reading starting from page 1 yesterday. Thus the cumulative and overall view seems to point to just that (steer the discussion away).

[chetak]

That would be a healthy discussion I think. Since there has been discussions about attacks against them in India by so called hindu extremists and it has caught some attention in the US.

You don't see the provocation by the (not so called!) EJ extremists in India?

Let's see the same EJ lot do something in saudi arabia as proof of their dedication and willingness to bring the light in other areas of "darkness" too.