Indian Naval Discussion

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 May 2012 15:36

AOC-in-C Maintenance Command, ACAS Engineering

Army:

Lots of Engineer Lieutenant Generals have been Army Commanders (Noble Thamburaj, S. Pattabhiraman, PS Bhagat, etc etc)
There is a post of Chief Signals Officer who is a Lt Gen, as well as the Comdt of the MCETE is a Lt Gen
DGEME who is a Lt Gen is an engineer, as is Commandant, MCEME

I am specifically not talking about maintenance, EME, signals and those kind of technical branches of the armed forces which are in most ways directly support combat ops.

A Naval Architect is NOT an operations officer. He cannot be the Chief Engineer of a ship . He is by definition an R&D kind of officer, who usually works at designs and development and is more shipyard /design oriented than running the ship. In fact, a Naval Architect is NOT qualified to be a ship board engineer, that is always the preserve of Marine Engineers, both in the civilian and military world.

It is like saying an Aerospace Engg is going to do Aircraft Maintenance Engg. That is a separate certification and a different course altogether and so is the Engg officer that aircraft of yore carried to operate systems etc , esp in large civilian planes.

What I mean is that the Army and Navy dont have equivalent R&D kind of specialized cadre in the first place, and even if they did, there isn't a career path for them.

That is very different from saying that there are 10 Lt gen positions for people in the technical streams in the army (signals, engineers, maintenance, even as someone said doctor) or air force.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 18 May 2012 19:55

General Manager of Yantar shipyard announced today during media-briefing that the shipyard is preparing to build another three 11356 for India. Tarkash is leaving on sea trials next week with delivery scheduled in October and Trikand is to be delivered next April.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 May 2012 19:59

^ Would that make a total of 9 Talwars then? Would that make it the highest number of any class (corvette and above that is) in the IN?

member_23364 · Post by **member_23364** » 18 May 2012 20:05

I am newbie and apologize if this is a stupid question.

India paid for 16 Mig-29K and apparently, we got 15 (Koti's link) because 1 crashed in Russia with loss of Russian pilots (RIP). Does this mean that India will get another aircraft from Russia to replace this or we have to pay for the crashed aircraft?

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 18 May 2012 20:22

Is the Kaveri Marine Engine will be used in P17A and P15B?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 May 2012 20:50

the kaveri is too small a gas turbine to power such large ships. if and when it is declared capable of extended marine service , I figure only OPV/FACs might find a use for it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2012 21:30

SNaik wrote:General Manager of Yantar shipyard announced today during media-briefing that the shipyard is preparing to build another three 11356 for India. Tarkash is leaving on sea trials next week with delivery scheduled in October and Trikand is to be delivered next April.

I recollect there was news of 3 new 11356 will be built in Indian private yard with assistance from russian yard , so it will be fully built in indian yard or yantar.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 May 2012 21:34

did we get the seawasp engines and tech on the 29ks?
it is supposed to have the blisk and extra marine coatings. an aesa on the 29ks, would have made IN beat IAF in getting the tech.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 18 May 2012 22:27

Guru_Tat wrote:I am newbie and apologize if this is a stupid question.

India paid for 16 Mig-29K and apparently, we got 15 (Koti's link) because 1 crashed in Russia with loss of Russian pilots (RIP). Does this mean that India will get another aircraft from Russia to replace this or we have to pay for the crashed aircraft?

IIRC the aircraft will be replaced free of cost because it was being tested by the plant's pilots and was not yet handed over to the IN. And i think a total of 45 air crafts are under contract.Take it easy, ask all the questions you want, i know i do

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 May 2012 23:34

Where will the next batch of 29 Migs be stationed ? On some land base or IAC ?
Just noticed, the article is written by Vivek Raghuvanshi.He used to post some strange stuff here or was it someone else ?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 May 2012 23:43

At some later date, Karwar will also get a naval air station like that at Dabolim, Goa. Perhaps some of the IN's fighter force will be based there when not embarked on INS Vikramaditya or IAC-1.

Will · Post by **Will** » 19 May 2012 01:44

Basing fighters at karwar makes no sense when the IN has a big base at Goa. Karwar is hardly a few mins flying time from Dabolim. Unless ofcourse the IN decides to develop Karwar as an airbase and vacate Dabolim as some people in Goa are demanding.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 May 2012 02:52

why if few mins of flying time makes it baseless?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 May 2012 09:14

Goa has a problem. the IN can only in the morning and the civilian airlines can only fly after around 1pm.

both problems would be resolved with a dedicated naval air base in Karwar.

or else expand the base at goa into a dual runway thing and integrate the ATC to permit mil and civilian ops in parallel. IN planes would take off and get away to the south or over the sea, leaving the civil air corridors free.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 May 2012 09:34

Many masan airports are always shared by USAF or USN jets, in addition to their dedicated strips that pops up like nobody's business if one look at google maps.

Maybe it is a good idea to double the runways, and have our forces use dedicated ones or on dual use mode depending on traffic.

Logistics and communication zone separation is all that is required.. now, after GAGAN, this should provide more integrated solutions.

But, I am thinkng on solutions, while ignoring what other operational problems could be there.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 May 2012 09:50

Cain Marko wrote:^ Would that make a total of 9 Talwars then? Would that make it the highest number of any class (corvette and above that is) in the IN?

Yes it would be the highest number for a largish vessel probably after the 6 'Leander' class' frigates. IN had 10 'Petya' class vessels sometime between the 1980s - 2000.

IN had 10 'Foxtrot' and has 10 'Kilo' class subs.

Amongst smaller vessels IN has
10+ Tarantul' class corvettes.
8 'Natya' class minesweepers

But 9 'Talwar' class is a big punch

K

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 19 May 2012 14:52

No No. NO more Talwars. Only P17A's and more P28's. By the way, the construction of P15B has started.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 19 May 2012 17:56

^^
Chaiwala info or some links about the P15B construction?

John · Post by **John** » 19 May 2012 22:24

Cain Marko wrote:Regarding terminal maneuvering - it was said in some reports that the missile is capable of some maneuvering - don't know though how it will manage it in terminal stage at that speed. Another concern is that it is not a sea skimmer so will be detected at altitude. Although it is also said that it can fly at lower altitudes in the final phase. But these problems are not unique to ships; land based targets and ADS will offer similar difficulty for shaurya types.

Cain Marko wrote:Question is what type of maneuvering are they talking about? How does it know when to do a terminal evasive maneuver? Does it have some kind of sensor that detects SAM launch and then it executes maneuver? Or is it preprogrammed? I am thinking it is the latter, and if so, how effective are such maneuvers?

I think the main advantage of Shaurya types is ridiculously small reaction time it affords for defense systems. Like that article says, if the RCS can be kept to a real small level ~ 0.1 msq - it hardly provides about 20 seconds window from detection to impact. Can they get off any SAMs in that time frame?

As far as target window and acquisition - how do they propose to do it for a hypersonic brahmos? A similar seeker could do it perhaps?

I have not heard anywhere that it can fly at lower altitudes was under impression, it was quasi ballistic missile it probably has some limited maneuvering in terminal phase.
But given its flights altitude most radars should be able to pick it up at least couple hundred kms' away may not be able to track it due its lower RCS and speed, so not sure where you got 20 second window from. Reaction time for SAM varies from what i recall Barak was advertised as having the shortest reaction time, some where about 3 to 6 seconds (when in standby mode) to track and fire a missile to engage a target. There is RSN video in the web that shows that.

As for DF-31D the main difference over Shaurya is its speed and range and the fact that chinese have developed some type of active seeker with mid course guidance (via satellite?) to fit into it.

uddu wrote:No No. NO more Talwars. Only P17A's and more P28's. By the way, the construction of P15B has started.

What is wrong more Talwar? P-17A with its 1 billion price tag i get the feeling it is going to end up just like Scorpene. P-28s design (speed) limits from being used as substitutes for Talwar.

Will · Post by **Will** » 20 May 2012 02:13

Singha wrote:Goa has a problem. the IN can only in the morning and the civilian airlines can only fly after around 1pm.

both problems would be resolved with a dedicated naval air base in Karwar.

or else expand the base at goa into a dual runway thing and integrate the ATC to permit mil and civilian ops in parallel. IN planes would take off and get away to the south or over the sea, leaving the civil air corridors free.

Well there is a new international airport that is supposed to be sanctioned for goa up north which would free up dabolim for dedicated IN use but people down south are opposing the new airport as it will be to far for them.

Will · Post by **Will** » 20 May 2012 02:17

adityadange wrote:
koti wrote:What do the Replenishment tankers like Deepak Replenish? Apart from fuel, can they replenish Food or Ammunition too?
INS Deepak
I was unable to locate the Fire control and tracking radars for the AK-630s present on it.
Can anyone point them out?
there is a dome like thing at the right of the highest mast on the ship. can it be the radar you are asking for?

Tankers are prime targets for any enemy. They should be provided with a bank of AA missiles. They is enough space on tankers anyway

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 May 2012 03:18

people will always oppose convenience setups.. the reason why there are city planners charting out road expansions, rail connections, and services sector. If govs ignore people, then security of nation will be affected as well. It would be insane to not consider people's wishes.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 20 May 2012 04:27

Potent and Capable: India’s Transformational 21st Century Navy

Strategic Analysis Paper by Sergei DeSilva-Ranasinghe

Paper analyses the modernization programme of IN (except LCA may be).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 May 2012 09:58

So what's the final take on the extra 3 Talwars? Are we going to get them (built in Russia or India) or not? They are certainly very cost-effective and possess a huge punch,especially now that they are Brahmos equipped.Very good value for money and are being built relatively speedily.9 in number,economy of scale, will also help maintenance.We have to see how effective the P-28s are,as their speed
isn't anything to rave about and would need LR anti-sub weaponry ,a powerful sonar and an ASW helo with a useful range and payload to be truly effective as ASW escorts.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 May 2012 10:46

Roperia wrote:Potent and Capable: India’s Transformational 21st Century Navy

Good find and decent write up , in the next 2 decade IN should be a force to reckon with from 5th position now it should be in top 3 navies of the world with multidimensional capability.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 20 May 2012 11:02

P15B information is from public sources.
Regarding Talwar, still two more will be inducted within the next two years. From the point of indigenous development, it's time we stop imports on items that can be made within India. There is no point in going for further imports. It's better to start working on P17A's and improve the production and management aspects of ship building. Which already seems to be happening. It's not wise to rely on Russians thirty years from now, when we'll be a Superpower. The time has already passed to start working on things and building on our own, in areas we do have self sufficiency. And P17's being far superior to the Talwars, it's wise to go for more P17's and mass produce them. Improvements can also be made when the P28A's are built. Something like in the missile Arena, from Prithvi to Agni-V. These achievements need to be repeated in shipbuilding.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 20 May 2012 11:29

Tankers are prime targets for any enemy. They should be provided with a bank of AA missiles. They is enough space on tankers anyway

Tankers will always move with armed escort, so they may not require their own AA missiles etc. See in any case the escorts will have the required investment & real estate for AA operations

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 20 May 2012 11:30

Don't know of any sources that mention work on 15B has started, Uddu. Perhaps I have missed it. Could you provide the link/source?

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 20 May 2012 11:46

You try not to put explosives and rockets in the same hull as volatile liquids. So other than small arms and perhaps manpads during hostilities you shouldn't expect tankers to be armed.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 20 May 2012 11:59

Try the tender section of the Mazagon dock website ( project management )
http://www.mazagondock.gov.in/newsite2010/index.htm
The first three of the P15A's will be replacing three of the Rajput class. The follow on four from the P15B will replace the remaining two of the Rajput class.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ct-15b.htm

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 20 May 2012 15:20

May 25 President of the Russian Federation will visit Severodvinsk to participate in official ceremony of Vikramaditya leaving on sea-trials. Hope the weather is good

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 May 2012 16:17

SNaik wrote:May 25 President of the Russian Federation will visit Severodvinsk to participate in official ceremony of Vikramaditya leaving on sea-trials. Hope the weather is good

The election is over and he does not need any more photo-ops , may be preparing for 2018

What is the secret sauce of President flagging of Sea Trial , can understand commissioning ?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 20 May 2012 16:52

Well, I guess he enjoys all things military

It's some kind of festival going on in Severodvinsk since Wednesday anyway, something to do with anniversary of the foundation of the town.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 20 May 2012 17:44

Thanks uddu for the links. So they are preparing for the construction

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 May 2012 19:52

X Posted from the Miscellaneous Pictures Indian Military thread.

Pictures of INS Shivalik and INS Karmuk on visit to Hai Phong in Vietnam (May 19 to May 24, 2012):

INS Shivalik with INS Karmuk alongside

INS Shivalik at Hai Phong 01

INS Shivalik at Hai Phong 02

From here:

Clicky

And another picture of INS Shivalik from another Vietnamese website:

INS Shivalik at Hai Phong 03

John · Post by **John** » 20 May 2012 21:33

uddu wrote:P15B information is from public sources.
Regarding Talwar, still two more will be inducted within the next two years. From the point of indigenous development, it's time we stop imports on items that can be made within India. There is no point in going for further imports. It's better to start working on P17A's and improve the production and management aspects of ship building. Which already seems to be happening. It's not wise to rely on Russians thirty years from now, when we'll be a Superpower. The time has already passed to start working on things and building on our own, in areas we do have self sufficiency. And P17's being far superior to the Talwars, it's wise to go for more P17's and mass produce them. Improvements can also be made when the P28A's are built. Something like in the missile Arena, from Prithvi to Agni-V. These achievements need to be repeated in shipbuilding.

I do agree with building vessels locally but I don't think P-17s are that superior to Talwar sure they have some advantages (better design: more RCS & noise reduction, two helos etc) but given their higher cost and longer construction time i can see why IN did not go for more of them. IMO P-17A should be have scaled down version of P-17 with more design improvements rather than what it is now.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 20 May 2012 23:11

That logic is like saying go for the Gripen and not for the Rafale.
The P17A's construction time will be cut down using modular construction technique. Also higher numbers are ordered. May be the number can be increased from the present 7 to 10. That would be ideal. To fill up numbers, you'll have P28's and also it seems they are looking at new design for next generation corvettes. But no more imports. It's in no way beneficial to India. The Army has lost it. With so much corruption with the T-90's they have lost out. Navy must not go that way. This is the right time to end imports.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 May 2012 23:49

While Pak establishes its HQ for its naval (second strike) strategic command:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 310617.cms

the UK is steaming ahead with the buyildinmg of its latest carrier of the QE class.It has also decided to plump for the STOBVL version of the JSF,something that the IN should emulate by developing a STOVL or STOBAR version of the FGFA,as fitting cats/emcats,etc. to a fututre large carrier is a very costly affair,and more difficult to launch and recover aircraft .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... rrier.html

BAE Systems: building the UK’s new aircraft carrier
It is the second biggest engineering project in the UK behind the Olympics, generates enough energy to power every home in Swindon and has been a topic of political debate for years - the building of Britain’s new aircraft carriers is continuing apace.

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John · Post by **John** » 21 May 2012 00:25

uddu wrote:That logic is like saying go for the Gripen and not for the Rafale.
The P17A's construction time will be cut down using modular construction technique. Also higher numbers are ordered. May be the number can be increased from the present 7 to 10. That would be ideal. To fill up numbers, you'll have P28's and also it seems they are looking at new design for next generation corvettes. But no more imports. It's in no way beneficial to India. The Army has lost it. With so much corruption with the T-90's they have lost out. Navy must not go that way. This is the right time to end imports.

I am not fan of Rafale

when it comes to Navy you are better of sticking with proven design than going for something ground breaking USN tried it and has back fired thrice and best decision they made is ironically building more of a 30 year old design. Anyway problem with P-17A is full collaboration with foreign SY , we have already allocated a 1 billion price tag and we seem to be approaching foreign shipyard with a blank check. We all know how well that worked out with Scorpene.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 21 May 2012 00:46

John wrote:
uddu wrote:That logic is like saying go for the Gripen and not for the Rafale.
The P17A's construction time will be cut down using modular construction technique. Also higher numbers are ordered. May be the number can be increased from the present 7 to 10. That would be ideal. To fill up numbers, you'll have P28's and also it seems they are looking at new design for next generation corvettes. But no more imports. It's in no way beneficial to India. The Army has lost it. With so much corruption with the T-90's they have lost out. Navy must not go that way. This is the right time to end imports.
I am not fan of Rafale when it comes to Navy you are better of sticking with proven design than going for something ground breaking USN tried it and has back fired thrice and best decision they made is ironically building more of a 30 year old design. Anyway problem with P-17A is full collaboration with foreign SY , we have already allocated a 1 billion price tag and we seem to be approaching foreign shipyard with a blank check. We all know how well that worked out with Scorpene.

It's $1.5 Billion Per Ship. What are your thoughts about MDL sharing it with L&T rather than GRSE?