Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Betwa redux.
ssaravanan wrote: 22 Jul 2024 20:45 INS Brahmaputra Severely Damaged In Fire, Lying On Its Side; Sailor Missing
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ins-bra ... _topscroll
July 22, 2024
https://x.com/nitingokhale/status/1815398274569769386 ---> Cause of the fire and ‘sinking’ of INS Brahmaputra will be determined by an enquiry. Not clear yet about chances of salvaging the frontline ship. Below a file pix of the ship and of the actual fire and its ‘listing’ on the port side.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

This is total loss. Shipyard ship losses are an unfortunate reality for nearly all Navies. But this is getting ridiculous.

IIRC, this is the 4th loss in Mumbai. In the last 10 years.

This ship is not coming back in service.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

A big loss

Could have been worse if it had been at sea with its full complement

Hoping for good news on the missing sailor
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

It has been in sea for 10 years with no loss. This one is squarely bad conduct by the shipyard. Either the infra is poor (with lots of jugaad), or leadership, or unrealistic productivity or something shady, maybe chalta hai attitude. I hope court of enquiry is exhaustive and brings some real, practical recommendation.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by VKumar »

It may get salvaged.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The earlier instructions were not strict enough? :roll: :shock:

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1815779383891931624 ---> The Chief has given strict instruction to the naval officials to deal with the national assets with great care and asked the officials to fix accountability.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Navy Chief reviews damage to INS Brahmaputra, measures to revive warship
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 723232740/
23 July 2024
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

From Commander Ashok Bijalwan (retd), Indian Navy.

https://x.com/AshTheWiz/status/1815460146145095931 ---> WHAT COULD HAVE GONE WRONG IN THE CASE OF INS BRAHMAPUTRA?

(A FIRE FIGHTING AND DAMAGE CONTROL SPECIALIST’S PERSPECTIVE)

Disclaimer: This is a brief analysis based on the currently available information. The exact cause of the accident will be determined after detailed investigations by the appointed BoI (Board of Inquiry).

The Indian Navy has ordered a Board of Inquiry to investigate the cause of INS Brahmaputra capsizing in harbour. It will be an arduous effort and will take time to complete. In the meanwhile, let me apprise you Xweeple of what could have gone wrong from a Fire Fighting and Damage Control Specialist’s perspective.

A ship undergoing refit is at a greater risk against fire as many of its systems are under repair and refit. The situation is complicated by “Hot Work” (welding/ gas cutting) at multiple locations on board during this period. It is common for fires to take place on ships, especially during refit. However, when dealt with alacrity and with the right type of first-aid (portable) fire extinguisher, fires can be brought under control with ease. Problem arises when either of the two conditions is not met. Once the fire attains a bigger proportion, the next step is to fight it with water (or sea water to be specific as it is abundantly available all around). But when you spray water on the fire, a lot of it just drops on the deck and adds to the weight of the ship and affects its stability. To prevent it from doing so, the extra water must be pumped out and thrown overboard to maintain the ship’s stability.

In case the pumping out capacity of the ship is less than the amount of water being poured into the ship (whether by design or due to systems under refit), its stability is bound to be affected and depending upon which side the larger part of water is getting drained to, the ship will begin to develop a list/heel. When the ship is upright, the centre of gravity and centre of buoyancy are on the centreline (with CoG below the CoB) and oppose each other. As more water gets accumulated, the top weight increases causing the CoG to move upwards while the increase in list moves the CoB outwards and lower creating a righting arm which accentuates the list. Once the CoG crosses the level of CoB and moves above it, the ship can not maintain its buoyancy any longer and capsizes or topples over.

That is what seems to have taken place in the present case. As you can see in the accompanying video, the fire is blazing in the superstructure which means the water was adding to the top weight. In the second frame, the picture shows the ship having developed a dangerous list to port. This is the second incident of a Brahmaputra Class Frigate toppling over in harbour. In an earlier incident, INS Betwa suffered the same fate during its undocking in Mumbai in December 2016. This would raise doubts in the minds of the people about the design stability of the class of ship. I must assert that in warship design, the stability is sacrificed (to a certain extent) to improve the agility of the platform. I’m sure that the BoI will look into this aspect as well and make the required recommendation to take the corrective measures, if needed.

For those who think this is the end of INS Brahmaputra, hold on to your horses. Like INS Betwa, she will be up and back to ‘fighting fit’ in a few months' time. My best wishes to the Indian Navy and the entire team of INS Brahmaputra. Lastly, my prayers for the well being of the junior sailor who has been reported missing in the incident.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

The Indian Navy’s Humanitarian Role: Strategic Soft Power in Action
https://thediplomat.com/2024/07/the-ind ... in-action/
24 July 2024

By Vice Admiral SN Ghormade (retd)
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/ANI/status/1817228045776027704 ---> Eastern Navy Commander Vice Admiral Rajesh Pendharkar visited INS Karanj — the third submarine of the Scorpene Class in the Indian Navy and interacted with the crew on the completion of a successful deployment on the east coast. The Eastern Navy Commander commended the crew for their spectacular performance in meeting all operational taskings of the Eastern Command: Indian Navy.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by fanne »

Rakesh wrote: 26 Jul 2024 19:45 The Indian Navy’s Humanitarian Role: Strategic Soft Power in Action
https://thediplomat.com/2024/07/the-ind ... in-action/
24 July 2024

By Vice Admiral SN Ghormade (retd)
This page has virus be aware!!
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by AmolJ »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POQA80rT8oA
Indian Navy's Yoga Day Pictures Expose Nuclear Revamp | Vantage with Palki Sharma
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SSridhar »

India, Japan to boost defence tech collaboration, including stealth antenna systems for warships
The Japanese Unicorn or 'unified complex radio antenna' system, which houses multiple antennae of a warship into a single horn-shaped structure to reduce radar signature and detection by enemy forces, was specially mentioned by Japanese defence minister Minoru Kihara after the bilateral 2-plus-2 ministerial dialogue here on Tuesday.

After the “successful completion of the cooperation in the areas of unmanned ground vehicles/robotics”, the joint statement said the two sides “appreciated the progress made for the transfer of Unicorn and related technologies and early signing of related arrangements”.


Bilateral talks on the Unicorn system, which can also detect the movement of missiles and drones with its ability to sense radio waves from a wide area, has been underway for a couple of years. “India is keen on inducting at least a limited number of such systems and technology transfer to make its warships more stealthy,” an official said.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

I have been reading about the interest of the Indian Navy in the UNICORN mast for last several years. Even posted on the forum.

My only problem with this system procurement is the timeline of Naval construction for the Indian Navy. By the time the first of these systems are in service with the Indian Navy. The system might well be obsolete.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Cochin Shipyard has become a fertile ground for foreign espionage.

Vizag espionage case: Two Cochin Shipyard workers in NIA custody - NIE
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Pratyush wrote: 22 Aug 2024 07:51My only problem with this system procurement is the timeline of Naval construction for the Indian Navy. By the time the first of these systems are in service with the Indian Navy. The system might well be obsolete.
It only shows that even after so many years, LRDE has not been able to design one and the IN had no other option but to go for this.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

India’s First P17A Nilgiri-class Frigate Starts Sea Trials
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ea-trials/
29 August 2024
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Karan M »

SSridhar wrote: 29 Aug 2024 10:26
Pratyush wrote: 22 Aug 2024 07:51My only problem with this system procurement is the timeline of Naval construction for the Indian Navy. By the time the first of these systems are in service with the Indian Navy. The system might well be obsolete.
It only shows that even after so many years, LRDE has not been able to design one and the IN had no other option but to go for this.
Not the case.
LRDE does not handle multi band antennas for comms and EW. That is the focus of DLRL though this program will most likely involve NSTL, DEAL as well. Furthermore, the IN launched this program only recently and involved DRDO, which has also roped in pvt and public industry. Navy has been through a phase where they only rested on their laurels as a builders Navy & were busy importing everything under the Sun. Only now are they launching indigenous programs for things like new generation systems which should fructify over the coming decade.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SSridhar »

Thanks Karan.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

Karan, thanks for pointing that out. However, your post brings another question to my mind. Don't know if you or anyone will be able to answer it.

UNICORN mast system is designed to be integrated with Japanese ships. Those ships has systems and sensors designed by the Japanese to operate coherently with Japanese systems.

Looking at the various sensor and coms system being employed by the Indian Navy. Can this system be adapted to operate coherently with our setup. Without losing its basic functionality?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by SNaik »

UNICORN mast features the following:

- The antennas for Link 16, which is a military tactical data link network used by NATO members and other Western nations.
- TACAN (Tactical Air Navigation System) is an antenna that provides information about the ship’s direction and distance to ship-based helicopters.
- Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) antennas
- ESM (Electronic Support Measures) for radar, or ES-R, which detects radio waves emitted by the seeker of an incoming anti-ship missile.
- ESM for communication, or ES-C, which is used to intercept radio communications. It is believed to be the same function as C-ESM used by European navies.
- UHF/VHF transmitting/receiving antenna, which is an antenna for UHF/VHF wireless communication, is used for short-distance communication.
- ORQ-2B-4 Offshore Wireless Router, which is Wi-Fi bands that provide a means of sharing information when sonar performs bistatic and multi-static detection

Which system causes your concern over compatibility? ESM? IFF of course will be different but all the rest should be pretty standardized.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Pratyush »

All that you have listed. Because from what I understand. Our systems are not 100% compatible with anyone else.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

SNaik wrote: 02 Sep 2024 15:17 Which system causes your concern over compatibility? ESM? IFF of course will be different but all the rest should be pretty standardized.
Sir, please do not bother. You are wasting your time.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://x.com/indiannavy/status/1834864921244582063 ---> Vinetra - the Kalvari Submarine Escape Training Facility, aimed to enhance the escape capabilities of crew from a distressed Kalvari Class submarine; was commissioned on 13 Sep 2024 by Vice Admiral Rajesh Pendharkar, FOC-in-C ENC, at @IN_Satavahana, Visakhapatnam. This indigenously designed and developed facility aligns with the Aatmanirbhar Bharat initiative, highlighting India's focus on self-reliance in defence capabilities.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1834891302162346321 ---> Indian Navy’s new submarine escape training facility Vinetra commissioned yesterday at INS Satavahana, Visakhapatnam.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Navy setting up base to control submarines on long-range patrols
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 196990.cms
14 Oct 2024
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

INS Mumbai with BrahMos AShM.

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1847329631474798858 ---> Navy Chief, Admiral Dinesh K. Tripathi inaugurated a new N1-N3 Jetty at the Eastern Naval Command (Visakhapatnam) to provide additional berthing space for warships.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

Cyrano wrote: 22 Oct 2024 16:11 What is this stupidity?!

https://x.com/saikirankannan/status/184 ... Zlcgg&s=19
Some twitter posts reporting similar thing for the Air Force as well
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

After Modi, Rajnath Singh to travel to Russia in December, commission INS Tushil
https://theprint.in/defence/after-modi- ... l/2323644/
22 Oct 2024
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

I wonder how many people realise the immense contribution of Cmde Paulraj to technology - not only in the @indiannavy, but indeed globally!



Cmde (Dr) Arogyaswami Paulraj (Retd) awarded the Royal Academy of Engineering’s most prestigious individual award, the ‘Prince Philip Medal’. A former @indiannavy officer, he pioneered MIMO which has benefited billions of smartphone users around the world

https://raeng.org.uk/news/inventor-of-t ... ilip-medal


He has won several awards for his achievements including the Marconi Award in 2014, the Alexander Graham Bell medal in 2011 and the Padma Bhushan in 2010.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by chetak »

vi@WA



Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj built from scratch one of the largest and most feared naval fleets.

Today, his seal is reflected in the ensign of one of the largest and most feared naval fleets, that of India.

Some advance to greatness, others return to it. We do both. शं नो वरुणः



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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Navy Chief Dismisses Chinese Dual-Carrier Operations As ‘No Cause for Concern’
https://bharatshakti.in/navy-chief-dism ... r-concern/
09 Nov 2024
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by vsunder »

Detection of Submarines and Evading Detection--- A Primer for Fanboyz

I thought I would write some sort of primer for the fanboyz here on various issues that go into detection of submarines. Later if I feel like it, I will give you a full fledged treatment of invisibility of aircraft, stealth and even Prandtl's boundary layer theory and bleeding of the boundary layer so you can appear erudite with other fanboyz when discussing SU-30 MKI, LCA yada, yada These are all areas I have contributed very deeply with papers with citations way, way beyond what I thought was possible as a young boy when I wrote them.

OK you know the song don't you "There is a hole in the bottom of the sea...." and there like the log in the song, the evil submarine lurks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK6UNRnbfnw

There are four factors to keep in mind now.

1. Salinity of the water

2. Temperature of the water

3. Pressure of the water

and of course 3 is related to

3(b) Depth of the water where the submarine is operating.

Next what is a sound wave? Its a pressure wave and the speed depends on the density of water and other factors. Let us list the effects of 1- 3(b) on the speed of sound in water.

1. More salinity increases sound speed.

2. Higher the temperature increases sound speed, so the deeper you are in the water the colder and sound speed is lower.

3. Increasing pressure, the deeper you are in the water sound speed increases.

So 2 and 3 are competing conditions. The deeper you go one lowers sound speed and one increases sound speed. Lastly in polar regions the salinity increases with depth and so the deeper you go sound speed increases. In equatorial and tropical regions due t surface evaporation of water, salinity decreases generally with depth and so the sound speed is slower at depth. So there are many competing conditions for the sound speed to decrease and increase.

Well what does this have to do with submarine detection? See did you fanboyz ever do an experiment in school of taking a glass block and tracing a ray of light through the glass block using pins? You would have seen that the light ray bends because the light speed in glass is less than in air. The same thing happens with sound waves and when the sound waves travel through material of different densities it bends. Now imagine your great big submarine and a ship/s on the surface pinging with sonar and the sound emitted by the sonar bends and misses the submarine because it is a certain depth where the sound ray just bends and goes back to the surface, because your Navy has used its hydrographical ships well and has produced a map of the oceans where you can lie in certain pockets where the sound waves cannot hit your submarine. Simply because your hydrographical ships have plotted the sound speed at different depths. There you can lie in wait away from the prying eyes of sonar if need be.

Well about a 100 years ago two men independent of one another developed mathematical tools to find the sound speed at different depths of the Earth and find the density at various points of the Earth 100's of miles underneath. How did they do it, yiu cannot did a 100 miles below. They did it by "travel time tomography". You have a surface station or ship and it send out a sequence of pings that sound and then there is another station on the Earth or ship far away that measures the time taken for the signal to reach it. If you do it for a whole bunch of measurements you can then compute the sound speed at any one point under the Earth. However, the formulae and proof of these gentlemen one Herglotz and one Wiechert( same as the Lienard-Wiechert potentials in Electromagnetism) assumes the Earth is a layered body and so obviously a simplified model. Treating the Earth or the oceans as completely inhomogenous leads to more complicated formula and thus reconstructing the densities from the time taken by the pulses to reach your ship is now something that can still be done with assistance of high speed computers. ALl this has been done by the leading Navies of the world, all over because these navies have been in the SSBN business for years and not like Johnny who has just come lately. Of course you want to know the proof these results by Herglotz and Wiechert here is a nice well-written set of slides, notice the bending picture of waves in one of the slides, that should give you an idea what I am talking about.
The idea is to be in a pocket which the waves avoid due to the bending effect. Where are they in the ocean, at what depths? Are these depths compatible with the design of the submarine?


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5K9XMOvqfK

German U boat captains were already aware and using such evasion techniques in WW2.

Oink, oink, oink.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021

Post by Manish_P »

^ Fascinating sir, though the math is way above my understanding level.

In case you are planning to put in more informative posts, i would like to humbly suggest and request if you would consider having a separate thread for it (say for eg - Detection of Submarines and Evading Detection)...

In this relatively generic thread such valuable posts would get lost in the clutter and go undetected.
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