Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Oct 2013 11:25

Karan M wrote:[
That apart, "In blunt terms, we are being ruled by Aurangzebs since 1947 (I am not exaggerating here - just make a cold blooded comparison of the policies of Aurangzeb and Congress, and you will find shocking similarities " - please do elaborate.

I am not kidding. The big problem with the nationalist side is that those who are articulate (like you) who have dug up such details or come to such realizations, internalize the data and don't disseminate it. If you were to catalog it, it might make a difference in how many Indians understand what has happened to them, and what they need to do to change how they are treated

Karan-ji,
In the next few weeks, I will collate my data and put together my thoughts on the subject. Actually, most of the data is available in R C Majumdar's book on the History of India, by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Publications (Vols. 6 and 7, I think - not sure). Anyway, I will write an essay on the subject.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 05 Oct 2013 11:26

devesh wrote:
Rudradev wrote:For all those valiant champions of Dharma who have been mortally offended by Modi's obsequious pandering to the sickular elites of New Delhi, I have an amazing offer.

Luxury 3 BHK in Malabar Hill, Mumbai, overlooking the sea. It has a stupendous devalaya, floor-to-ceiling marble mandir room with havan enclave, piped gangajal reservoir, full set of puja-paath appointments.

One thing, there is no shauchalaya in the flat, but as I said, the sea is nearby onlee.

Who can resist? Certainly not the "crores of Hindus" whose aspirations Modi has apparently crushed forever, according to some sublimely well-informed posts on this thread- in fact, that's why I'm making the announcement here exclusively!

Now to sit back and wait for the bidding war to get going.

I'll pay you market price to buy that apartment. then, I will get rid of the temple. build a toilet. and resell it for 30% margin on what I bought it for.

so, are we happy now? no devalaya. a shiny apartment with a jacuzzi in the shauchalaya.

this is how the "discussion" degenerates once you start negotiating on devalayas. once you make them into negotiable/saleable entities (like Rudradev ji has done above), there is no need for it. as soon as there is a new proposition that gives more "financial" value, you can get rid of the devalaya.

so, I guess that's the end goal then: turn devalayas into saleable/for-profit entities to be negotiated on the basis of purely perception-based financial/profit value.

That certainly appears to be YOUR end goal in this analogy, Devesh ji. You have admitted that you would buy the flat, get rid of the mandir and put in a shauchalaya. It would seem you think it's perfectly ok to destroy a duly consecrated residence of a deity to make a 30% margin.

Lesser Hindus and Fanboys like myself would probably have found some way to put in a shauchalaya without destroying the devalaya, or if that were impossible, decided not to buy the place at all. But what do we know.

As for the evil pseudosecularist-in-becoming, Narendra Modi, all he has said is that he would never build such a flat in the first place; indeed, he would make sure as an architect that he designed the flat with shauchalaya in mind, before adding the devalaya.

Now as a potential dweller in such a flat, it would make me happy that it had both shauchalaya and devalaya- but you apparently feel it has to be one or the other, and would rip out the devalaya to put in your jaccuzzi. What can I say- dharmo rakshit rakshitah onlee.

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Oct 2013 11:43

Aiyo - we are still in sauchalay mode?

Here is an apocryphical conversation:

Modi: Pehle Sauchalay phir Devalay
CongIs: He-he feku line pe aa gaya, ham bhi to kehte the - pehle Sauchalay

Analytical voter: Well CongIs - what did you do for last 60 years? No Sauchalay? Forget Devalay.

(There is no analytical voter).

SDRE Yindoo : Modi sold us down the river, no devalay only sauchalays - sanatana dharma is now destroyed :-((

disha · Post by **disha** » 05 Oct 2013 11:46

Guys, in Sauchalay mode - we are missing important developments.

Here is a very important one:

Gunbattle on with BJP leader’s killers, 1 cop killed

One policeman was killed and another injured after an encounter between the murder suspects of BJP leader V Ramesh and the police on Saturday in Chittoor district of Andhra Pradesh, say TV reports. The operation was carried out jointly by the Tamil Nadu and the Andhra Pradesh police.

According to reports, encounter is still on.

The murder suspects are holed up in a house in Puttur near the Andhra Pradesh border.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 05 Oct 2013 11:47

Modiji is again talking about yellow stuff today. He is addressing the India International Bullion Summit Mumbai.

http://www.narendramodi.in/liveevent/social/index.html

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 05 Oct 2013 11:58

disha ji, thank you for that. hopefully now, Modi can speak up on the murder of BJP leaders in TN.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 05 Oct 2013 12:01

Agnimitra wrote:When Vivekananda said growing and eating brinjal was more useful than growing and worshiping Tulasi in a hungry nation, some "orthodox elders" of Hinduism criticized him harshly. Did it make any difference to his popularity, or to the wave he symbolized?

No. Same case with Modi's shauchalaya comment.

Elders have their place, too, and they have to say it for special reasons. No disrespect meant to them, either.

Vivekanand was a dharma guru and a social reformist. Coming that statement from him was good, logical and appropriate. NM is a PM candidate and time is quite different from what it was with SV.

If seen that statement of NM in isolation, there is nothing wrong in it. Everyone would agree with that. But we have seen too much of Hindu nationalist turning into sakoolar to see that statement in isolation. Not in current time of political situation. It is not the disgust for that statement, but it is the fear of NM turning sakoolar that is coming out from the critics.

Let me use NM's own analogy. He said even if the wind is blowing at 200KM/h you still have to use pressure pump to fill air in tube. Now I say, it will take only a tiny hole in that swollen tube to be punctured. So be careful.

And for those who are screaming 'toilets for society' 'toilets for society' need to understand that
Society != only toilets
Temples are also part of society and play very very important role.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 05 Oct 2013 12:17

muraliravi wrote:
nachiket wrote:^^Some taqqiya is necessary in politics. No one can escape it. Not even Modi. Don't confuse tactics with doctrinal changes. Also how do you know he "asked" BJP workers to bring Muslims to the rally? Can't they not have come voluntarily? Such own goals are unnecessary.
Modi's whole USP to karyakartas for a number of years was that, "some taqqiya will always lead to more, but i will always offer zero taqqiya"

Agreed. As long as this taqqiya is to get the fence sitter Hindu votes, it should be all right, isn't it? Muslims won't vote for Modi. I hope Modi understands this. But as an Aam Abdul I know nothing.

One thing is just as true now as it was in the past. If Hindutva is put on back burner, BJP won't do well. Development or congressi corruption notwithstanding.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 05 Oct 2013 12:52

I see shades of izlam khatrey me hai on this board

One remark and people start wailing that dharma-yudha is lost!

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 05 Oct 2013 13:02

In NI lingo "dehati aurat" or "dehati budiya" is someone quarrelsome, meddlesome, prone to complaining, etc. MMS was complaining to his boss BO about Pak intrusion and NS gave him that name. By bringing it up NM showed that the guy doesn't have the cojones to take the bull by the horn and that he does not get much respect either.

A lot of orthodox Hindus on BRF appear to be still offended by the "toilet vs temple" thing. Many of the reformist Hindus said and did things that offended the orthodox but Hindu society wouldn't have progressed w/o them. There were howls of protest and abuse from the orthodox when Vidyasagar promoted education for women just to give an example. What NM said is not fundamentally disagreeable unless the IQ of some members on BRF has gone down.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 05 Oct 2013 13:06

Rahul Mehta wrote: And now this dangerous trend is there in across India, including Gujarat. I wont blame NaMo for it per se for it. Despite rise in "GDP" and despite rise expenditure for education, the Govt schools across India and Gujarat are of very poor quality. And lower class and lower middle class cant afford private schools. So rank and file of poor, particularly dalit and tribals, are sending kids to Missionary schools. So you can imagine what may happen 10-20 years from now when these kids come out. And NaMo has NOT been able to improve quality of Gujarat's govt schools. This has been fact "seen by all, but noticed by very few". Why NaMo could not improve govt schools? You have to dig more or read my facebook notes.

Kem chho Rahulbhai

I have to say I don't agree with the quoted part. The quantity AND quality of govt schools have improved greatly in GJ. Have you seen the transformation of Somnath school in Maninagar? Similar is the case across all GJ cities. The TAT exams are conducted to recruit teachers in those schools. There are very high standards maintained in these exams. Those teachers were sent to rural and tribal areas ONLY. There is not a single, I repeat, not a single of smallest village which doesn't have a school today. For example, I was on a kutchh tour a couple of years ago. There is a Lakhpat taluka (it is no more than a village) there which is a ghost city since the earthquake. There are hardly 200 people living there. I visited the school there. The teacher was teaching to only 10 students. The school was clean and decent having photos of Saraswati mata and SV around. That is just an example. All such schools have very decent facility overall - including toilet

.

Your assertion of tribal students going to missionary schools due to inadequate facility in their area is also wrong as there is NO missionary school in tribal area. They are all in city areas and they have to compete badly with other good schools. If tribal are forced to seek good school in city, then they have lot many choices other than missionary schools. In contrast to the popular belief, there is reverse conversion going on in tribal area without force or luring. Dharmiks are coming back home.

Also, can you tell me which MNCs you are talking about which are forcing NM in GJ?

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 05 Oct 2013 13:15

sudarshan wrote:Hmm, maybe it would be good to stay away from this thread for the next five to ten pages until this temple/toilets issue has been (hopefully) thrashed out in all its aspects and nuances. Lack of any other substantial news is probably the issue here.

can you guys please stfu about the temples vs toilet issue. what the hell is wrong with you all. starting page 425till now has all been toilets..please calm down.this thread is getting boring with your unecesarry argumentative verbiage

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 05 Oct 2013 13:30

Devesh ji,
I didnt want to defend this statement because till now I looked at it as something trifling with no need for defending - and as something which also has the needed effect of separating the supporters into doodh ka doodh and pani ka pani.
But Now since you allege "sikular koolaid drinking" with this minor statement here I go.

Firstly If you are in a position to vote ... Who will you vote for if not for Modi becoming PM ?

Calling people as fanboys etc and placing yourself on a higher perch while ultimately anyways voting to make Modi to be PM would be useless posturing for time pass - unless you have some better man in sights well placed to lead the dharmic forces.

"Modi has started drinking sikular coolaid" allegations based on some thing as plain as simple as "pehle Sauchalay phir Devalay" and the takleef its causing just because devalay has been uttered in the same sentence as sauchalay is itself symptomatic of "purer than thou" germ free western culture making it way in like - "100 % germ free with domex" "Colgate removes 200% germs" type cleanliness principles (any person with rudimentary background in bioscience will guffaw at these principles BTW)- in the same people whose ancestors lived using cow/buffalo dung water to keep their homes safe and perfumed , making cow/buffalo dung pancakes you name it. This allegation is surprising as its coming from people who i thought knew all about nuances of ritual cleanliness .

No one entering a temple will be pulled aside saying you are coming from a cowdung perfumed house so you are unclean. How ever many rules and restrictions exist and are strictly followed regarding other aspects like carrying dead meat inside , coming in with unwiped arse ,coming in with a running period etc . even coming in without bathing is totally frowned upon.

So a person does have to be "ritually clean" before he ambles into a temple. Which is precisely what NaMo implied - linking it to the context of need for more toilets in India - and further linking it to the need for India to be more tourist friendly and build many many well maintained public toilets . Its a packaging of a needed social reform which I am afraid to say is still being resisted by the people in many quarters. I remember a telugu movie of recent make where the family patriarch (K Vishwanath of all people) insists on rest of his joint family to daily go out and squat in the morning in the fields - citing that as a good tradition which fertilizes the fields while frowning on modern latrines - and the whole joint family lives in a gaint bunglow !!

So when even Japanese and rest of the far east gave up the culture of manual scavenging and using that night soil for their fields why should our people demand on sticking to these outdated traditions ?

We have the much envied lineage of our Harappan ancestors who built extensive underground urban sewerage system 4000-5000 years back when the rest of the current TFTA West in Edinburg, Paris London etc till the 19th century was dumping urine and excrement onto the heads of the passers by from top floors with nothing but a call of Garde L'eau/Garde loo !! onto the streets. Contrast the above with the current briturd danny boyle wantonly selling poverty po.rn of boys jumping into cess pits to meet amitabh bacchan. Which is precisely what NaMo again referred to as selling poverty abroad and depicting Indians as some turd filled country - in effect hurting our tourism pull inspite of our 5000 year old civilizational legacy. People may also remember NaMo did the same thing when he went after congress when theywere tomtomming Oscars for SDM back in 2009 holding that it s a matter national shame.

So his priorities both wrt toilets and Hindu h&d are quite rightly placed compared to quite a few in brf I fear.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 05 Oct 2013 13:31

Some where there was a report of MODI vs MODI. This is actually going to hurt him unless he plays a very delicate balancing act because the paid media will distort his comments and BJP is not good a media management and does not have the kind of money that KANRESS has to throw at media. He should focus on anti-congress platform because the wave in the country is just that. There is no hindu wave like the 1990 at this time. He focusing right on anti-congress because they did a abysmal job in providing basic sanitation to the people.

M Joshi · Post by **M Joshi** » 05 Oct 2013 13:38

People who are commenting that NAMO derided dharma by speaking of sauchalya and devalya in the same sentence have no friggin' idea what he was talking about. have you seen the whole video? It's like getting into hyper mode by seeing today uNDieTV & TOILeT report that 1/3rd children in Gujarat are malnourished. When the bigger picture is 1/2 of Indian children are malnourished. So, just by reading that MSM report you'll go into hyperdrive that Guj. is not developed, Modi has been lying?

NAMO was talking about the womenfolk in rural areas who have to go to open places due to lack of sauchalyas. If you visit a village, and see the activities for which people will donate money or the money is being collected, it is in most cases - TEMPLES. First go & visit a village to know that it's a fact, because I've been to many and seen it first hand. Modi's only point was before you build devalyas with that collected money, build toilets for your women.
Village men folk are in a hurry to build temples because they do not want their women to go to other villages if they have to go to temples, but they are ok if their womenfolk have to go out in the open!! He was talking about change in this mindset.

And as far as the concern that he spoke about these two words in the same sentence. OMG!! NAMO is worse than Sonia NAC cabal. She is clearly a better option today because NAMO spoke of those two words in the same sentence. He's probably a closet Missonary supporter as suggested by one of the posters above. Doesn't matter if he has passed anti-conversion laws in his state.

If you go by some posts here, we can neglect his life's work, performance, dedication because of one mis-understood remark, and vote for lesser of the two evils which is clearly Sonia Begum. Isn't it?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Oct 2013 13:52

Joshi Ji, well put. That is why on last page i had a kind of poll to prioritize funds spent in a village. I would like nay sayers like Devesh ji to give their preference of order of investment.

M Joshi · Post by **M Joshi** » 05 Oct 2013 14:06

Harbans ji, to those people it doesn't matter what's more important for villagers' welfare. What matters is how to make a mountain out of a molehill. That is why India is in pits today. Due to people who give more weight-age to mis-interpreted words than actions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Oct 2013 14:10

Now that M Joshi has clarified the context of the Modi remarks lets give this a rest. No more toilets posts.

Thanks, ramana

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 05 Oct 2013 14:22

Thank u

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 05 Oct 2013 14:40

Rahul Mehta wrote:So NaMo has not been able to fix Gujarat govt schools. He has not been able to reduce delay/corruption/nepotism in courts.

Can you tell me what NM could have done to reduce delay/corruption/nepotism (not sure if that exists on a great scale but still) in courts?

Rahul Mehta wrote:If growth was indic, we would have seen massive fervor for RJB, KJB, KV in Gujarat and across India.

As Atri Guru would say, Modi doesn't believe in materialistic implementation of Hindutva. He believes in Ekatma Manav Vad discovered by Pt. DD Upadhyay (Atri Ji, NM is not Savarkar which means extreme Hinduism. He is DD Upadhyay. He said this himself.). Had he done that, he would have been Advanified by now.

Rahul Mehta wrote:If growth in India was led by Indian masses or even Indic elitemen, then we should have seen dramatic improvement in maths\science education in schools for poor. But across India, and Gujarat too, maths]science education in schools where bottom 80% go, has been falling and falling since 1991.

Modi is just a part of the system. He is merely a CM of an average sized state. How can he change all this? Students are taught as per the curriculum which has to be most modern and parallel to international standard. We just can't go into our own limbo and teach Vedic Maths (which has nothing Vadic about it anyways) to students. But from what I have observed he has done everything to improve practical knowledge of students. Today there are latest equipments in govt colleges and schools. Govt high schools have A/C computer labs also

. Unjustifiably undermining Modi will not get you any votes. At least not in Modi Nagar

.

Please take no offense sir. I know your heart is at right place.

Jai Shri Krashna & Jai Jinendra.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 05 Oct 2013 14:41

Kakkaji wrote:I think NaMo's message is build shauchalaya before devalaya at your house. I agree with it.

Re. RJB, i think NaMo will enforce the law and due process. This means that VHP will be allowed to build the temple as per the court judgement. GOI is not going to build it.

JMHO

And will NaMo all build KJB and KV? Or are they dead issues now? And HCjs have given 33% land to Masjid, which is unacceptable to me. I want 100% land for RJB, and no mosque in 200 meters of radius. You think NaMo can promise this on public?

Anyway, I am soon starting campaign to request all 80 crore voters to order MPs via SMS to print RJB-act and KJB/KV-act in Gazette. I hope you will send this order to MPs via SMS.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Oct 2013 15:21

Awesome speech by Modi today..must watch!

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 05 Oct 2013 15:23

Rahul Mehta wrote:But he falls short in combating MNC-owners and Missionaries. He could not zero conversions, forget ghar-vapasi of all. If growth was indic, we would have seen large scale ghar-vapasi.

Missionaries are losing it in GJ. Many are ghar-vapsing and those who aren't, marrying their daughter to Hindus

willingly.
Let me give you a good point to raise for election. The missionaries found it so hard, that they employed new tactics. They joined hands with BSP and congi (behind every rogue party there is a congress

) and started converting Hindus into some mythical Baudh Dharma. They use Ambedkar's name to do this. THIS IS a greater threat that EJ, specially in Saushtra area. They know that dharmik to core people of Saushtra are not easy meat. So they have planned to do it in staged manner. By that time they hoped to get 'Baudh Votes' from them which has not happened so far. They employ goondas to prevent RSS cadres to go there and tell them truth. My father had to literally fight through them and convert about 100 "Baudhs" back

. I know a few things about Fathers of churches in GJ but I don't want to reveal into this open forum because I don't want that situation to improve

.

Regarding why EJ has not been so successful in GJ, the reason is not NM, the lion share of the credit must go to the sant/mahatmas of Saushtra and rest of the GJ. Missionaries might be lending money for 2%, these folks give it for 0% for really needy people

. Now anyone saying temples and ashrams give nothing back to society?? They are absolutely needed and the flow of money MUST NOT end to survive as a Hindu nation. The opponents are so very rich.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Oct 2013 15:25

kapilrdave wrote:
Rahul Mehta wrote:If growth was indic, we would have seen massive fervor for RJB, KJB, KV in Gujarat and across India.
As Atri Guru would say, Modi doesn't believe in materialistic implementation of Hindutva. He believes in Ekatma Manav Vad discovered by Pt. DD Upadhyay (Atri Ji, NM is not Savarkar which means extreme Hinduism. He is DD Upadhyay. He said this himself.). Had he done that, he would have been Advanified by now.

kapil bhai,

It is like vishwaroopa of krishna onlee.. all faces of same eternal truth. What is Savarkar in wartime of 1940s, is Upadhyay in later peacetime. When Jats fought back in Muzaffarnagar, they followed the letter and spirit of Savarkar.. Niran ji has explained it in his reports.

Rahul bhai,

Kem chho.. Welcome back after long...

RJB, KJB, KV are non-negetiable from dharmaarthik (socio-politico-economic) aspects. They should be "one of the natural results of massive Hindu renaissance". They should not be made focal points of mobilization. Centralized Mobilization is very easily subverted by Dilli-pati and their handlers. The Manthan should be such in every village that polity will be forced to demolish all these illegal mosques and built temples there.

I am most interested in Ghar-vaapsi of people in GJ, MP, CG etc. People from VHP, Vanvasi Kalyan ashram should be encouraged to carry out the campaign of ghar-vaapsi in these states. There can be a KJB movement also, but it should be seen as a subset of bigger movement. Unlike RJB of late 90s, it should not be made sole focal center of the movement.

The focus should be something which is not material - Like establishment of Dharma.. Dharma sansthapanaarthaaya is the most powerful motivator of Hindus which is not being harnessed to its fullest, unfortunately..

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 05 Oct 2013 15:27

there is a huge outcry in the paid media right now about 1/3 of guj children mal nuritioned. They even have sub sahara picture of children alongside NAMO picture. But they are conveniently omitting the fact that it is for 12 districts of Guj. Does any body know what is the Guj malnutrition level and what is Bharat's mal nutrition level?

niran · Post by **niran** » 05 Oct 2013 15:42

^^I hiyar about a new fashion this Navratri pyt and lads are having
a tattoo of NaMo for the evening dandia meet
if true then I can safely say all calculations equations permutations will be flushed down
sauchalaya, tis the first for a PM candidate in the history of Bharat.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 05 Oct 2013 15:50

niran wrote:^^I hiyar about a new fashion this Navratri pyt and lads are having
a tattoo of NaMo for the evening dandia meet
if true then I can safely say all calculations equations permutations will be flushed down
sauchalaya, tis the first for a PM candidate in the history of Bharat.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/nare ... 13199.html

Known for having created a brand around him, now Brand Modi has spilled onto the Navratri Festival. Modi Tattoos, Modi Kurta and also Modi Suits, Fabrics and Sarees have found their way into the market. As the country gears up for Navratri, we look at some emerging trends surrounding Modi theme this season.