Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Dec 2010 08:22

our boys only wait there to gain an understanding of how kibbutz's operate.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Dec 2010 09:26

Indian SF learning CI from IDF? May be NSG types training with IDF SF in CQB and FBUA......but Para(SF) "learning" from IDF?

As for the Special Group - the topic is not kosher on BRF....so, let the sleeping dogs lie.

sdas · Post by **sdas** » 01 Dec 2010 16:51

A Sharma wrote:Army commandos daring hostage rescue in Assam jungles

Thanks for the share, it was really a good read.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Dec 2010 22:27

the Army official said the Indian forces will undergo intense close-quarter operations training with the aim of learning how to kill insurgents or terrorists without harming the local population.

and IA needs to learn this from israel ?

now wait a minute, defensenews report, smells of vivek raghuvanshi and boy am I correct.
anywhere you find this combo, chuck it into the nearest dustbin. utterly unreliable.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Dec 2010 17:05

From a very old Article

Even standards of selection are being diluted. In 1995, when the 21st Special Forces battalion was being converted, only three out of 30 officers cleared the gruelling probation. In 2004, when the 4th Special Forces battalion was being converted, only three were rejected! "Our present Special Forces battalions are arguably the best type of infantry units in the army. They are robust, motivated and well-led, but despite their title, they are not special forces and are not capable of special operations which are distinct from special missions, commando operations and specialised operations," says Nanavatty. Oberoi also points out a major anomaly in the present strategic thought in government. "Club all our so-called Special Forces units—be it the Army, Navy, Air Force, National Security Guards and the Special Group—and we have more manpower than what the Americans have and yet we don't even have a tenth of their capabilities".

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?225600

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Dec 2010 02:46

^ desi journos are best at doomsday articles

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Dec 2010 09:28

He's probably right about the dilution of standards. During the raising of a new SF forces, the original contingent is NOT necessarily always SF calibre. IIRC the SAS also faced something similar. They planned to raise a fourth sabre squadron (A,B,D) and the entire complement consisted of volunteers from the Guards, none of whom were SAS qualified, leading to a great deal of resentment amongst regular SAS troopers who'd been through the arduous selection process. Later of course the Iranian embassy crisis happened, the secretive unit shot into spotlight and had no dearth of volunteers after that. In any case, point is the G squadron today is no different from the others, the converted SF battalions will eventually come up to scratch.

I do agree another point as well - the SF units need to branch out from the Para Regiment. And the Para Regiment should possibly be expanded since more funds for modernization are now available. Any company/battalion sized operation ought to be carried out by the Paras leaving the SF for more unconventional operations. A setup similar to the SF and Rangers in the US Army, and SAS/SBS and Paras/Royal Marines in the British Armed Forces.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Dec 2010 09:31

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 09:43

even compared to the 2nd tier of Munna SF (turkey, Soko, Singapore) , which are generally seen in sexy black MH60/MH47 helis with ER outboard tanks dont you think we are seriously deficient in battlefield helis for our para(SF) and NSG units? the Mi17v is a less than ideas soln due to its lack of side doors imho. WSI Dhruv can do the escort role but too small to carry the bulk of men and materials.

methinks similar to the MC-130J purchase (order 6 more), we could go in for maybe 40 MH-60 'pavehawk'/MH47 for Marcos & para SF and see how it goes? once they have dedicated helis under army/IN aviation they can train on it day in and day out. our desi SOAR thing in conjunction with the MC130Js

good for psyops stuff like a zodiac boat of all-black marcos sliding up right into the belly of the MH47 hovering low over the water with its rear ramp open, deploying chariots and ROVs sliding out into the water etc....Purush had posted a great pic of a Singapore SF demo once...right near clarke quay or marina somewhere.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 11:08

here is what I was demanding.
http://img189.imageshack.us/i/imgp1747acr2wban.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8374/i ... r2wban.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/i/imgp1752acr2wban.jpg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Dec 2010 15:09

The article posted by rkhanna has an error - 21 Para(SF) was the 4th SF battalion - raised by converting 21 MLI. But the report is true about the mass conversion of Para into Para(SF)....that attempt did not go down well in the SF fraternity. And we need seperate regiment for SF and SOC/JSOC to centralize this precious and rare resource. Pakis have done better than us in this regard....the american connection shows there.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Dec 2010 19:49

turkish special forces use a SH60 version with a peculiar outboard fuel tanks slung above the cockpit doors.
http://www.patricksaviation.com/files/p ... _10406.jpg
http://balkanmonitor.files.wordpress.co ... e00095.jpg

the SOAR mh60 pavehawk has a aerial refueling probe (C130 can refuel) and what seems to be a navigation radar pod and a FLIR pod .. it lacks those outrigger fuel tanks
http://www.scale-rotors.com/files/galle ... k--143.JPG
http://mi9.com/uploads/military/1308/mh ... _19053.jpg
and mounts two gatling cannons one on each side.

this I think imparts the SH60 a better SF capability - two good cannons, +radar + EO, plus two rope lines one on each side(one jams, use the other).
the Mi17 usually seems to deploy one rope and lacks HMG cover and nav aids for low flying night missions (the upg Hinds have them)
so you can can upg Hinds as escort but Mi17 is not capable of ferrying in a larger force with them except by following closely

here is a good example
NSG roping down one by one off the rear ramp to the roof of mumbai jewish center with no HMG protection or parallel ropes
http://www.nation.com.pk/uploads/news_i ... d_2348.jpg

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 03 Dec 2010 20:23

rohitvats wrote:And we need seperate regiment for SF and SOC/JSOC to centralize this precious and rare resource.

A dedicated SOC/JSOC - either independent, or as a sub-command under the SFC - makes a lot of practical sense. A separate SF Regiment makes zero sense, as each resulting regiment (Para and SF) would be too small to exist independently and they would be ordered back to combine into one RC just as we do with Kumaon+Naga, the Gorkha Rifles (2 per RC), etc. The next regular regiment coming up would probably be a Marine Regiment (not counting the planned scouts units being raised).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Dec 2010 20:59

^^^The fact that SF and Para are same regiment has been bane of the SF in the army - for a simple reason that requirement of the two is different and not all Para officers might be appreciative of the peculiar requirements of the SF battalions. IMO, the argument about small size of SF is not relevant here as is the requirement for RC. After all, does SF has direct recruits and needs seperate RC?

AFAIK, jawans at PRC have an option to opt for SF and go for probation. The same practice can be maintained and even extended to jawans from other RCs. Their main alma-mater can be (and I think should be) the Special Forces School - where tradecraft is imparted to those who clear the probation.

As for the Para Regiment, it needs to grow post the transfer of battalions to SF role with enough strength to mount two brigades at least.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 03 Dec 2010 21:31

rohitvats wrote:As for the Para Regiment, it needs to grow post the transfer of battalions to SF role with enough strength to mount two brigades at least.

Well, until this happens there will be no bifurcation of the Parachute Regiment... thus an impassse.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Dec 2010 01:23

Paki model is also interesting:

* There are no airborne troops in PA - thus no equivalent to 50th Ind Para Bde
* The SSG is the RC and lone Brigade both
* assault (Bell, Mi-17) and escort (AH-1) helicopters are concentrated with Army Aviation

SSW and SSGN are too small and play a fringe role compared to SSG.

We on the other hand are sadled with SF troops are spread over multiple ministries and armed forces.

NSG - MHA
SFF, ARC - PMO
Para SF - Army
Garud Force - IAF
MARCOS - IN

Surprisingly IAF has not designated any specific Mi-17 sqn for SF ala 160th SOAR Night Stalkers though thankfully IN has.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2010 08:46

and all of these disparate units are lacking in gunship and transport helis, while pakis have used munna tactics to get themselves loads of UH1 and AH1.

not a pretty picture imo. I dont see a reason why SFF and NSG cannot come under Army HQ. if Garud is for CSAR and base security only then let IAF continue to have them but atleast have them co-located with the Army SF HQ for joint training. a case can be made than a huge Fort Bragg type unified facility be created in karwar or belgaum or anywhere convenient and all of Army and Navy and IAF SF units co-locate there and do joint training. Spend 1000cr on it (the cost of a single strategic airlifter) and buy and build the best of breed training ranges and comfortable living facilities and township....give them the best opportunity to do their work.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Dec 2010 21:15

Surprisingly IAF has not designated any specific Mi-17 sqn for SF ala 160th SOAR Night Stalkers though thankfully IN has.

IN has a dedicated chopper unit for the MARCOS?

The SOAR type unit has been in the news since last 4-5 years but doesn't seem to have gone anywhere...

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 04 Dec 2010 22:23

Singha wrote:not a pretty picture imo. I dont see a reason why SFF and NSG cannot come under Army HQ.

Legal and diplomatic implications. Let me give you a benign example: One of NSG's primary tasks is anti-hijacking operations. In these they necessarily use soft-nosed bullets to avoid over-penetration. If they were under military command, they would be subject to Geneva Conventions and be liable to be prosecuted for its violation. But under MHA command, as gendarmerie, it is a perfectly legal employment of military personnel in police functions ~ an idea grandfathered into the GC by Continental countries (France, Austria etc). As you can imagine there are much graver legal and diplomatic implications for the other core functions, which is why they are structured so.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 05 Dec 2010 04:26

The NSG need not be merged back with the Army. It was created after Op Bluestar especially to keep the Army out. However, thanks to clever thinking - the NSG->SRG is Army by another name.

sum wrote:IN has a dedicated chopper unit for the MARCOS?

Marine Commando Flight (MCF) - Zappers

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 05 Dec 2010 04:39

NSG->SRG is Army by another name.

you mean SAG as in 51/52 SAG which is manned by Army...SRG manned by IPS Cadre

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 05 Dec 2010 20:41

Singha wrote:Spend 1000cr on it (the cost of a single strategic airlifter) and buy and build the best of breed training ranges and comfortable living facilities and township....give them the best opportunity to do their work.

Also, the pays needs to be revised. Western special forces have the highest paid officers and men in their respectively armed forces. We need a similar system here. Not just a small allowance, but something that brings an operative's salary at par or beyond the next pay grade. As things stand right now, short timer OTA graduates tend be more enticed by the SF, while the majority of NDA graduates (I'd venture to say the majority of whom can make it through any army's SF probation) on the other hand, are more interested in a career and after four years of 'ragra' have little incentive to join a dead-end unit.

That approach does have its shortfalls though. To pick another British example, the SAS in the sixties and seventies was a virtually unknown outfit, very secretive very efficient, but always short of money and recruits. Today they've got a large budget (continuing to grow in this age of defence cuts), steady supply of recruits, but everyone wants to know what the SAS is upto, often at risk to operational secrecy. Also, its resulted in a high turnover rate, especially for operators with combat experience.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 05 Dec 2010 21:02

AdityaG, ARC is not SF by any means.

rkhanna, SRG jawans can't be IPS, hain ji?

Singha, Fort Bragg is for Rangers, US Army SF and Delta onlee - rest of massa SF dont call Fort Bragg home.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Dec 2010 21:59

There is substantial incentive (relatively speaking) being oferred to the SF troopers...something like the Fighter Pilots get in IAF and Submarine crews in IN. Though, I cannot confirm the amount.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Dec 2010 22:51

The numbers are on the website for respective service , having said that afaik they are yet to update the figures to reflect the 6th pay commission recommendations.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/allowances.htm

Above lists the allowances for the 'MARCOS' I am inclined to believe that their equivalents in IAF/IA would be entitled to receive similar amount.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Dec 2010 23:26

^^^Thanks. I did not know about public source for these things.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Dec 2010 23:53

rohitvats wrote:There is substantial incentive (relatively speaking) being oferred to the SF troopers...something like the Fighter Pilots get in IAF and Submarine crews in IN. Though, I cannot confirm the amount.

http://joinindianarmy.nic.in/inner.aspx ... d=138&id=1

12. SPECIAL FORCES RS 9000/- PM

Added later:

11. PARACHUTE PAY RS 1200/- PM

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Dec 2010 01:24

Raja Bose wrote:AdityaG, ARC is not SF by any means.

Well true, but I mean it is the only specialized or 'special' unit for such operations. Afterall, it is equipped with 2 IL-76 and ELINT/EW aircraft. Paanwala source tells me that Mi-17 used in Nariman house operation was also ARC.

I believe it is the ARC IL-76 that deploys the NSG and not IAF.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 Dec 2010 19:41

Aditya G wrote: I believe it is the ARC IL-76 that deploys the NSG and not IAF.

That was the original deal but now it is more flexible.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 07 Dec 2010 17:40

rkhanna wrote:delete..Mixing and matching from memory..

Anyways..here is something from old
Now, our investigation reveals many of these warnings were coming from a shadowy covert operations unit called Special Group III, made up of Gujjar residents of the high mountains. This fact invalidates claims that photo-reconnaissance by newly-acquired Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs), backed by aviation corps helicopters and equipment such as thermal imagers, were the key to whatever success Operation Sarp Vinash has achieved. All seven of the Army's reports on the Hil Kaka operation either credit Special Group III, managed by the Jammu and Kashmir Police, or its smaller sister organisation, Special Group II. The information, the investigation has found, was at first ignored; it was taken seriously only after the organisation's leader spoke to several top political and military figures in Rajouri, Jammu and New Delhi. Based on their inputs, the 9 Para-Commando Regiment, a crack unit which earned a formidable reputation for counter-terrorist operations when it operated in Kupwara, made a first attempt on Hil Kaka in early January. That attempt, and another timed for January 26, were foiled by heavy snow
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2013/stories/2 ... 300400.htm

Anybody know anything about these Special Groups??!!

Also There was news of Indian Soldiers going to ISrael to form a new unit..anybody remmember anything on that?

I have no sources but to chip in:
The IA along with the JKP does maintain the locally populated SG(special group). Not to be confused with the 22SF(SG). These are numbered I to V and composed of Ikhwans and support elements. They aid in collection of intelligence for CI ops.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 07 Dec 2010 17:47

Singha wrote: A case can be made than a huge Fort Bragg type unified facility be created in karwar or belgaum or anywhere convenient and all of Army and Navy and IAF SF units co-locate there and do joint training. Spend 1000cr on it (the cost of a single strategic airlifter) and buy and build the best of breed training ranges and comfortable living facilities and township....give them the best opportunity to do their work.

Singha Saar,

There is CCS(Combined Commando School),Sarsawa which caters to SF of all shapes and sizes, it's run by instructors from the 22SF(SG). However, AFAIK not the kind of facility that we all yearn for.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 07 Dec 2010 18:16

negi wrote:The numbers are on the website for respective service , having said that afaik they are yet to update the figures to reflect the 6th pay commission recommendations.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/allowances.htm

Above lists the allowances for the 'MARCOS' I am inclined to believe that their equivalents in IAF/IA would be entitled to receive similar amount.

The allowances shows for MARCOS/Charioteers. Who are charioteers in the IN?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Dec 2010 19:08

^^^Chariot refers to this: http://home.swipnet.se/Submarine/cosmos4.jpg - two man submarine.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Dec 2010 03:45

Resume of another ex-SF alumnus - this time from 22SF ... gives plenty of clues.

http://www.oil-offshore-marine.com/show ... ?id=114631

...

Citizenship: Nepal

...

Sergeant (Indian Army, Para Commando) 20+ years Indian Army Service
Archer Coln, HQ Est No 22, C/0 56 APO 30 Apr 1988 to 31 May 2008 (want to write them a letter? )

20yrs of rich security experience with the Indian Army having participated in various security Trainings and Operations including Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) SRI LANKA (Apr 1989 - Nov1989) and 100+ Para Jumps from MI8, MI17 and AN 32 Aircrafts.
 Was part of the Army Training Team, imparting basic weapon and tactical training in Sri Lanka.
 As Training NCO in the Battalion, was tasked to prepare monthly programs, supervise lecture demonstrations and conduct classes and exams for recruits/trainees.
 Carried out security operations in J&K in highly inhospitable terrains.

...

Professional Courses/Trainings
 Military Basic Training (1988-89 )
 Rock Climbing Training ( Special frontier Force).
 Guerrilla warfare training (Special Frontier Force)
 Para Jump Basic/refresher training at Para training School, Sarsawa( Special Frontier Force )
...

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Dec 2010 05:15

^^^
Alot of Ex IA Soldiers relocate to get mercenary/BG gigs... Its illegal btw as an Indian Citizen/Ex IA to be a mercenary so now they come under the umbrella of "Security Experts"

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Dec 2010 05:34

 Mobile Phone repairing course at Capri Trade Centre, Chakrata Road Dehradun, India.

rkhanna

I would not say a lot.

i also would say IA soldiers also do not take up jobs if the Indian Govt does not sanction it.

eg. Iraq when IA officers were being offered 1000s of dollars but with GOI disapproving it hardly any took those

As one officer said - we have no intention of working if our Govt does not approve it

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Dec 2010 05:39

he is a nepali citizen though.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Dec 2010 05:57

it was not in reference to the particular resume - just rishi's statement

Alot of Ex IA Soldiers relocate to get mercenary/BG gigs...

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 08 Dec 2010 06:47

@Surya i agree as a percentage of the standing army they are not.. But u will readily find Ex IA mercs from mumbasa to anaba to south east asia. i have met some and heard about others. The usual way is through companies set up in the middle east where they get work permits from so they avoid Indian authorities..These companies ironically are also present in new delhi and do consulting work for the Indian govt. The trend is a new one so i am told.

Btw is law that an Indian Citizen cannot be a mercenary.. nothing about govt approval. The issue about iraq started when a body of an Ex IA soldier turned up there. It being a point of embarrassment to an Anti-War stance that we had hence issue came to light.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Dec 2010 08:13

rishi

are they in actual combat or running the security ops

I understand that it will be the tech def of a merc but to me being the head of security for a oil facilty in Africa is no diff then head of security for one in India.