Indian Railways Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2012 12:45

they might be able to attract back the upper middle class if completely pvtized trains using imported coaches and catering system were introduced (much higher fares) and dedicated greenfield platforms constructed at std of those abroad.
ie rajdhani LHB trains nothing below.

else people who can afford will always prefer volvo/merc bus , personal car, innova taxi or air.

gradually the system will wither and die due to lack of profits....how long can GOI continue to sink money into it with always a loss.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 03 Aug 2012 20:45

Singha wrote:
else people who can afford will always prefer volvo/merc bus , personal car, innova taxi or air.

gradually the system will wither and die due to lack of profits....how long can GOI continue to sink money into it with always a loss.

Its outright hilarious that volvo bus covers mumbai to bangalore(1000 km , avg speed 60 kmph) in 18 hours with flexible timings, while the fastest train in that route, chalukya exp covers that in 24 hours with a top average speed of 51 kmph starting at unearthly hour of 6.00 am from bangalore.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Aug 2012 20:59

arvin wrote:Its outright hilarious that volvo bus covers mumbai to bangalore(1000 km , avg speed 60 kmph) in 18 hours with flexible timings, while the fastest train in that route, chalukya exp covers that in 24 hours with a top average speed of 51 kmph starting at unearthly hour of 6.00 am from bangalore.

I think there is more to it than just the journey, since schedule is maintained for change/refuel of supplies at certain stations, etc. for long distance trains which must be done in daylight and it does take time. Plus it is not a linear route and can't run at top speed always. WR also gets to service to personnel from the state politics spread all over, postal delivery, etc.

I am not an insider though.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2012 21:25

it has 23 stops. http://www.prokerala.com/travel/indian- ... s-327.html

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 03 Aug 2012 21:34

vishvak wrote:I think there is more to it than just the journey, since schedule is maintained for change/refuel of supplies at certain stations, etc. for long distance trains which must be done in daylight and it does take time.

I do not think trains are held at any station just because locos have to be refueled. In such cases most likely the loco would get changed. In that way the railway does have a well oiled mechanism for the changing of locos, running staff etc. etc. (known as technical halts).

Plus it is not a linear route and can't run at top speed always. WR also gets to service to personnel from the state politics spread all over, postal delivery, etc.

For the delay in reaching destination, I feel the main factors are:-
1. The roads are now better, and secondly they have a much better route alignment. Where as railways still rely on old routes (mainly from the British era) or a few of them which got built after 1947. Better roads, with better reliable buses means reaching destinations quickly.
2. The number of trains have increased many times, the route cannot take so much of them. In Bangalore-Pune route there are still many sections which are YET to have double lines. So crossings etc. cause immense delays. Railways (may be due to fund shortage) are now in the mode of a "beating a dead horse". They are trying to get the maximum out of existing rail roads.
3. Due to very many reasons (tracks, area of the routes, stations, signalling system, undisciplined people) the trains cannot go beyond a certain speed limit.

A pure personal thought. I guess people's disposable incomes are now on the increase. And with higher income, certainly the responsibilities of the nature would also higher. A pensioner with a limited income would still prefer the trains, because it much more cheaper, and as pensioners they also have a good amount of free time so that they don't mind spending it on train. Consider a younger executive still in executive, with a much higher pay packet. His responsibilities are even much stringent, so he may then look for a slightly more expensive means of travel, with some comfort, so that he can be on time at the destination and finish his job at hand.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 03 Aug 2012 22:22

The reason chalukya exp was taken as an example because , it takes the shortest / "linear" possible route and the bus also has same route because commercial viability demands shortest route.

Sachin, I think it is only paperwork which is limiting the average speed on this route to around 50 kmph. Inspite of a single line, atleast two or three trains on this route, among the 10 trains can be promoted thru paper-work\notification\NOC\empowered committees to shatabdi\rajdhani\duronto status and speed increased to avg 80 kmph enabling the journey to be completed in 12 hours. If three such trains with full chair cars start operations, even airlines on this route may be in for trouble, considering check-in \ check-out \ traffic times for airlines.

Even single track konkan railway has atleast one train that does 60 kmph.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 04 Aug 2012 01:03

Trains are slow for 2 reasons.

1. Politically required halts.
2. Old and well past its time infrastructure. There was a study once that 50% of IR's culverts are over 80-100 years old. Many now have 25-40 kmph speed restrictions!! On a trip between Dindigal & Madurai recently I counted easily 10+ go slow signs. One bridge had a 15 kmph speed restriction on it!!

The signalling technology too is a shame.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Aug 2012 08:46

An 80-years old beauty. (Courtesy: The Hindu)
An 80-year-old steam engine being taken to the boat club on the banks of Upper Lake in Bhopal on Friday for showcasing the country’s rail heritage to tourists.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 04 Aug 2012 09:30

That is XB engine mostly used for passenger when WG and WP came into service. Later that XB was used for shunting and goods / train formation

I revised my opinion I think it is XE engine for Goods traffic since it has 2-8-4

Actually the engine in the picture posted by Sridhar ji is meter gauge, how so?
Notice the buffer in front of the engine, usually the broad gauge engines and rakes have twin buffers except for box cars for goods.

Added later

The picture has single buffer in the middle of the front.
So it can't be XB or XE

But some thing like YG

Also here

http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/india056.htm

Question

How do you think the electric light in front of engine and the lighting inside the cabin was powerd.?

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Aug 2012 09:57

Is belgian railway infra so world-class or is it that one of our wazirs on his mandatory european jaunt has been led into some envelope/sifarish etc.

Rlys signs deal with Belgium for station upgrade

Express news service : New Delhi, Fri Aug 03 2012, 00:50 hrs

The Indian Railways has tied up with Belgium to develop its stations across the country into world class models. On Thursday, it signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) under which Belgium’s Ministry of Mobility will work out a way to revamp major railway stations of India.

Railway officials from the two countries have formed a working group and a steering committee, which will chalk out a set of recommendations that will form the basis of a formal agreement between the two governments.

Railway Minister Mukul Roy said India’s major station premises would be developed by the Belgian counterparts in a way that would benefit the Railways and the passengers while establishing a synergy with the Belgian government.

“I am directing the Railway officials to start work immediately and come up with workable recommendations,” the Railway Minister said.

He signed the MoU with visiting Deputy Prime Minister of Belgium, Didier Reynders.

The project will be led by the subsidiary companies of Belgian Railway Group, a company under Belgium’s Ministry of Mobility.

As part of the modernisation plan, the railway stations will have more amenities for passengers, such as shopping plazas, budget hotels, restaurants, book shops, forex kiosks and parking lots, among others.

As many as 50 railway stations across the country, including New Delhi, Howrah, Mumbai, Patna, Bhubaneswar and Chennai, have been identified for an upgrade under the project.

“We have exclusive experience in redevelopment and asset valorisation projects in Belgium and have done signature projects like the stations of Brussels, Liege and Antwerp,” said Herwig Persoons, Chief Executive Officer of Eurostation, one of the subsidiaries of Belgian Railway Group.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rlys- ... de/983053/

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 05 Aug 2012 09:41

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 357293.cms

Both the IRCTC and the Centre for Railway Information System (CRIS) are working jointly to double the web site's capacity from the current four lakh bookings a day to eight lakh a day.

In recent past, a number of steps have been taken, including installation of high capacity database servers, and increasing the internet bandwidth from 344Mbps to 450Mbps. IRCTC has also deactivated thousands of the multiple user IDs and individual user IDs of agents, who would jam the systems, causing servers to hang during peak hours.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Aug 2012 10:45

habal wrote:Is belgian railway infra so world-class or is it that one of our wazirs on his mandatory european jaunt has been led into some envelope/sifarish etc.

Rlys signs deal with Belgium for station upgrade

Express news service : New Delhi, Fri Aug 03 2012, 00:50 hrs

The Indian Railways has tied up with Belgium to develop its stations across the country into world class models. On Thursday, it signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) under which Belgium’s Ministry of Mobility will work out a way to revamp major railway stations of India.

Railway officials from the two countries have formed a working group and a steering committee, which will chalk out a set of recommendations that will form the basis of a formal agreement between the two governments.

Railway Minister Mukul Roy said India’s major station premises would be developed by the Belgian counterparts in a way that would benefit the Railways and the passengers while establishing a synergy with the Belgian government.

“I am directing the Railway officials to start work immediately and come up with workable recommendations,” the Railway Minister said.

He signed the MoU with visiting Deputy Prime Minister of Belgium, Didier Reynders.

The project will be led by the subsidiary companies of Belgian Railway Group, a company under Belgium’s Ministry of Mobility.

As part of the modernisation plan, the railway stations will have more amenities for passengers, such as shopping plazas, budget hotels, restaurants, book shops, forex kiosks and parking lots, among others.

As many as 50 railway stations across the country, including New Delhi, Howrah, Mumbai, Patna, Bhubaneswar and Chennai, have been identified for an upgrade under the project.

“We have exclusive experience in redevelopment and asset valorisation projects in Belgium and have done signature projects like the stations of Brussels, Liege and Antwerp,” said Herwig Persoons, Chief Executive Officer of Eurostation, one of the subsidiaries of Belgian Railway Group.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rlys- ... de/983053/

RAJA syndrome in the Railway ministry??

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Aug 2012 12:00

habal wrote:Is belgian railway infra so world-class or is it that one of our wazirs on his mandatory european jaunt has been led into some envelope/sifarish etc.

I dont think Belgian Railways is a great one, when compared to the railways their neighbours (mainly Dutch and German) have. I have not traveled very extensively on Belgian Railways, but the only time I did the train and the railway infrastructure did not look all that great.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 07 Aug 2012 10:00

I have travelled from Zurich to Geneva by train I always like to check out the equipment.
The rolling stock and the engine were made Swiss company Brown Boweri.
I also travelled by train from Paris to London the equipment of SNCF was all CSF Thomson
I think GEC of England was merged with CSF.
Also from Paris to Amsterdam.

The equipment though showing age was pretty good as far as the ride was concerned.

There used to be a GEC DC locomotive that was in central railway which used pull the Pune Mumbai VT express

Added later
GEC of England merged with Alsthom, they have a big office in La Defence (business suburb of Paris near le grande arch area where I used to work)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Aug 2012 07:40

Finally, a decent toilet in IR

Courtesy: Business Line

But, it will take decades before widespread use. Somehow, our trials take a very long time. At least, the IR must ensure that all new coaches manufactured at ICF, Avadi & Kapurthala must come fitted with the new biodigestor. Retrofitting will be costly & time consuming.

The bio-digester is a spin-off technology product developed by scientists from the DRDE, Gwalior, and Defence Research Laboratory (DRL), Tezpur, to treat biological wastes of soldiers serving in the high altitudes of Ladakh and Siachen.
Eco-friendly process

“The bio digester-based toilet has already found its way into railway coaches, tourist buses, small homes and is to be extensively set up in Lakshadweep islands over the years. It has the potential to be used in all terrains — plains, deserts and marshy lands”, said V.K. Saraswat, present chief of the DRDO.

To meet the growing demand, the DRDO has licensed the patented technology to at least 50 companies to build eco-friendly toilets that could be called E-Loos. Many of these firms are involved in the fabrication of the ‘no flush’ toilet version which, according to estimates, would cost around Rs 15,000 at present. The technology helps turn human waste into biogas and odourless compost.

The process is eco-friendly. The gas generated can be used for energy and cooking. The process involves tapping bacteria which feed on the faecal matter inside the bio digester tank and degrade it to be released as methane gas.

The DRDO says it has two categories of bio digesters; one made up of metal for soil-bound regions. The other is made up of metal, fibre re-inforced plastic (FRP) and poly urethane foam (PUF) for temperature regulation for glaciers.

While metal bio digesters maintain required temperatures by geothermal and microbial heat, temperature controlled types are heated by energy from solar photovoltaic cells.

Push from Railways

A major push to civilian application of the bio digester came from the Indian Railways. At the request of the Research Design and Standards Organisation (RDSO), Lucknow, the DRDE designed a customised toilet for railway coaches. The single toilet bio-digester has been fitted in at least eight long-distance trains.

Made of stainless steel, it is rectangular in shape and does not require any special maintenance, except routine cleaning. It has two basic chambers, one for biological and the other for chemical treatment. The combination of these two treatments results in odourless effluent for safe discharge.

According to the 2012-13 Railway Budget, 10,000 bio toilets based on the DRDO bio digester technology would be installed.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 24 Aug 2012 08:29

well...how long does it take for the..err the dump to convert into gas (on a full load)?

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 24 Aug 2012 09:10

In the recent Delhi Defense Expo (March 2012) There was German stall which had similar equipment to transform Human waste into drinkable water and solid compact waste.
The guy at stall was talking about kits for infantry.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Aug 2012 16:57

^^^

What happens to the Bio Gas that is generated and how will the solid waste be cleaned up from the digester unit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2012 17:11

it will have to be cleaned up at end of journey when the train is cleaned and checked for a period of say 12 hrs in the yard.
the unit looks big enough to hold about 3 days worth of crap and water which is the longest it might need to serve unserviced.

Karnataka KSRTC has also introduced a few volvo buses recently on long haul routes featuring a pantry and chemical toilet.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Aug 2012 18:39

The typical idea is that the digestor (sic?) works to separate the water from the solids. Once digested, the mash is squeezed, the water is then released away from station and the solids stored. This typically allows the space to be maximized. A super large tank like that could easily last 15 days+ storing solids. But in case of break down too it would last 2-3 days. It is good that they are looking at it from India conditions perspective.

Rs 15,000 for that sounds very very less though. I can easily see a mechanical SS unit costing 10 times that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2012 20:03

looks like fairly crude piece of kit, suited to our cost structure. maybe railways coach factory gets their steel and stuff on the cheap from SAIL to price it so low....15K is a very low looking price for such a unit which might easily cost 2-3L minimum on open market even for static use and then add 'ruggedization' and 'leopard2a6ization' for mil-grade IR use.

I would imagine it does no squeezing etc and is just a holding tank with liquids and all....

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 Aug 2012 22:50

Lets hope it wont get damaged by the myriad things our passengers throw into it apart from their crap.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 25 Aug 2012 04:19

The SS sheet thickness can be minimized with PVC material of higher thickness, if compacting requires a prime mover they can drive through the wheel axle, instead of a motor (to keep cost low). It should also be modular so as to replace the unit in entirety with a kind of snap on taper ball and nozzle socket type mechanisms. compacting should happen ideally when braking is applied, at which point we want the kinetic energy dissipated anyway (through brake shoes)
just 2 paise

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2012 17:53

you can see some pics of the toilet and interior of the new KSRTC Bliss line of inter-city volvos.
http://bharathautos.com/volvo-ksrtc-int ... oilet.html

looks like they take over a portion of the luggage bay below the center of the bus and drop in this modular package, keeping its roof around hip height inside the passenger compartment.

for khan hawks, here is a greyhound bus toilet which looks at passenger compartment level and right at the back....people complain of foul odours unless they sit in front section
http://michiganman567.hubpages.com/hub/ ... ide6652349

that way the IR open pipe toilet does not have odour even of heavy use - the massive inflow of air through crack above the window and through The Hole , along with track noise is so scary, its hard to coax any turd out , and those that do, disappear pronto

any gas also gets mixed with 1000x that volume of rushing air and goes away. who invented it was a genius in gas turbines for sure...must be a high level low pressure compressor guru in MTU, RR or GE aero engines.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 26 Aug 2012 02:02

some times small pebbles can come shooting at your rear end, like ingestion of debris in fighter engines while taking off

Even exhaust fans in toilets in massa land homes are (some of them ) designed to make loud noise so that any trumpet/ Brass section noise while in use can cancelled out of attunated.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2012 09:42

generally in the old creaky NFR bogies at high speed it felt like one was inside a turbine chamber while at same time being shaken 12 inches side to side.

only the most extreme efforts could produce any output. a "innovation" introduce was to bend the pipe and make it a bit longer to avoid FOD ingestion into the first stage of compressor blade (our bums)

forgettable days for sure.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 26 Aug 2012 18:52

Can you guess which end is Lp and which end is HP ?
In other word which end is sucking which end is pushing?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Aug 2012 01:04

Prasad wrote:Lets hope it wont get damaged by the myriad things our passengers throw into it apart from their crap.

100% , DRDO would not have thought about this at all.. foremost thing I can imagine are the plastics cups to papers.

But, I am happy finally it has arrived.. but on the bus, why does it say for "emergency use" only? they meant a controlled excretion at road-side is allowed on request?

gotta go now.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 27 Aug 2012 08:13

Sachin wrote:
habal wrote:Is belgian railway infra so world-class or is it that one of our wazirs on his mandatory european jaunt has been led into some envelope/sifarish etc.
I dont think Belgian Railways is a great one, when compared to the railways their neighbours (mainly Dutch and German) have. I have not traveled very extensively on Belgian Railways, but the only time I did the train and the railway infrastructure did not look all that great.

Belgium Railways is best known for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EYAUazLI9k

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Aug 2012 17:44

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... epage=true
362 km in just under five hours. 72kmph average ! cool man

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 31 Aug 2012 19:02

SaiK wrote:362 km in just under five hours. 72kmph average ! cool man

Not to nit-pick. But see the photograph put on the news article. Next to the man, you can see a kind of a box which has got jagged edges. This box like structure seems to have got gaps between two sheets. Dont we have a better mechanism to work on such joints?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Sep 2012 00:42

I don't see anything else other than yellow and red, and some blue.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Sep 2012 08:53

it seems the TMC railway minister mukul roy has visited the railway ministry avg 4 days/month in his tenure so far. mostly he is in kolkata for TMC and when in delhi again for TMC work only.
piles of important files incl for purchase of safety gear and vital opex needs lie unsigned by him.

another disgrace of a coalition munna minister.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Sep 2012 22:39

what an experience
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqp4McM2wY
I am not sure how valuable it would be for desh.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Sep 2012 11:06

^^^

The nation is paying for following coalition dharma. Where regional parties assume authority but not any responsibility.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Sep 2012 03:01

coalition or collision dharma?

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 06 Sep 2012 19:26

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120906/punjab.htm#14

Bikaner-Pathankot train service to start from today
Tribune News Service

Sangrur, September 5
‘Holiday Express’, a new train service between Bikaner and Pathankot will start on September 6. The train will start its journey at 9 pm from Bikaner and reach Pathankot at 12 pm the on September 7.

Vijay Inder Singla, MP from Sangrur, said the train would run once a week. From Bikaner, it would go via Napasar, Dungargarh, Ratangarh, Churu, Sadalpur, Hissar, Jakhal, Dhuri, Ludhiana, Phagwara, Jalandhar and Dasua to reach Pathankot.

Singla said the train would pass through the heart of Malwa region and provide much needed relief to cancer patients, who travel to Rajasthan for treatment.

He said he had requested the General Manager of Northern Railways to put Sangrur, Malerkotla and Sunam also on the route of the express.

Dhuri had already been included in the list of the train’s stoppages, he added.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2012 08:43

Poor infrastructure and Indian Railways have almost become synonymous. The rise in traffic has led to a massive demand for equipment, which are mostly privately acquired. Profit-driven contractors allegedly supply low-grade equipment very often. “The abysmal quality of critical spare parts is an area of concern. For example, in the New Delhi-bound Duronto Express, the central buffer coupling (CBC) failed in Howrah recently. The CBC is a critical component. It used to be produced in railway factories but is now outsourced, and the quality has seen a massive decline. There is no standard system in place to couple the coaches,”

“In many places, there are no arrow marks, which confuses the loco pilot. While the Railways had adopted a left-hand system for signals, in many places the signal poles are on the right,” he said. Machine failures at level crossings (manned and unmanned) have also resulted in many accidents. With the rise in the number of trains, tracks are overburdened. According to Shyam Singh, at least one train passes each track every four minutes on an average. This hardly leaves any time for track personnel to conduct a thorough check. In such circumstances, accidents are bound to happen.

“The rules and regulations are continuously violated because of the lack of skilled technicians in the Railways. Workers are introduced to new technologies without adequate training. We are expected to learn a new medium in control rooms or other places in a day’s time. There are enough possibilities for mistakes in such circumstances,”

Most accidents happen because of procedural failures. The most important systems in the Railways that demand urgent attention are signalling and route-relay interlocking (RRI), both of which have become outdated and are malfunctioning. The RRI systems have a life of 16 lakh operations or 20 years, whichever comes earlier

“China spent Rs.5 lakh crore on its railway network in 2009. Why can’t we do it over a period of five years?”

why?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Sep 2012 14:44

Two unsung British heroes whose efforts kicked off Indian Railways - The Hindu

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Sep 2012 12:06

I saw a writeup on the proposed RRTS for the NCR in the print edition of TOI this morning in Delhi. But am unable to locate the same online. It suggests that the coaches will be broad gauge and the fare will be 1 re/ KM. The trains will be built utilizing the technologies acquired for the DMRC.