J & K news and discussion

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Jan 2011 08:01

Jamwal,
Have you recently traveled north into the valley or have friends there?

I feel that we generalize KMs as unpatriotic and paint them with too wide a brush as being pro-independence etc.

My impression whenever I traveled to Srinagar or other parts of the valley always was that different sections of the society had different views on the subject, and that they were no different to the general spectrum of people we have anywhere else in India.

In any usual city, the middle class is busy educating its children, going about their jobs and are quietly patriotic, all the while blaming the political class, the police, and the bureaucracy for all the problems they have to face. Ditto in J&K.
People of the lower socio-economic strata are chronic complainers the world over. They are astute people nevertheless, more politically oriented than the rest of us, because unlike most of the middle class, they vote and are more in tune with politics. As everywhere else, a small percentage of extremists with firepower can appear to sway the majority in the direction they want. But take that firepower away and all you have is political opportunism in seeking to milk the situation.

Two things are evident in the valley:
1. Islamization
2. Re-emergence of political agitation by the hurried rats at the instance of the ISI. Perhaps the feeling is that the hurried rats need to re-establish the roots with the new generation and with the older one who all are by now bored by the chimera they've peddled for 2 decades.

Pakistan will always maintain a certain level of violence until it is alive.

The other aspect is that there is a certain political undercurrent in the valley which has always been pandered to by the Congress. This is the direct result of the article 356, which gives J&K special status. The people are made to feel different, as having special rights that are different to the rest of the country. Even entrance exams of educational institutions maintain this different status. So the political undercurrent has always been of showing defiance with the center in Delhi, showing independence with Delhi garners votes in the valley - it always has even when people were overwhelmingly patriotic.

We can see how this plays out. When Omar Abdullah stands up in the lok sabha and gives a defiant speech, notice how his popularity zoomed up. Numerous instances can be cited.

As long as india gives J&K special status, that undercurrent will remain.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Jan 2011 11:27

Omar, PC to discuss J&K roadmap today

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Omar-PC-t ... 52077.aspx

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Jan 2011 11:36

Yes, I know quite a few Kashmirs, both Muslims and Hindus. Sure there are quite a few KMs who don't support this Hurriyat drama. But such display of intelligence is far too rare to be of any good use.

KMs were anti-India, anti-Hindu even before all this militancy, azaadi drama started in mid to late 80s. ROP bug was always there even before 1947. Mutiny of muslim soldiers (mostly Poonchie) in Maharaja's Hari Singh army while facing Paki Islamic invasion is a prime example. It was only after news of their atrocities on even the people who had helped them started filtering in that Sheikh Abdullah tried to raise a militia to fight the marauding Pakis. ( It's another matter that the militia didn't even fire a bullet AFAIK. It was Dogra soldiers who did all the fighting till Indian army arrived. ) Nobody should be under any illusion that he would have opposed the invasion if Pakis had not screwed this up.

Coming to present, Sure you'll meet 100s of them who'll vehemently support your POV and dismiss Pakisatan and Hurrirats. But do you really know that they are telling the truth ? Kashmiri Pandits trusted them with their lives and how they betrayed that trust is for every one to see. Kashmiri economy is based on tourism and playing a good lackey is second nature to them. You can't afford to antagonise your customers after all. But Pakis are known as extremely generous hosts while Indians are perceived dour and frugal. Now you can either take what they say at face value or take lessons from history. It's your choice either way.

I sometimes assume that there is a significant population that is sick and tired of all the violence, protests and are intelligent enough to realise that they are being taken for a ride by Pakis. Further, they are more or less secular and tolerant. Then why should this part of KM community take offence at Indian flag. They are closet Pakis if they do so and no different than retards throwing stones or taking up the gun. Others who do get offended should be dealt with an iron hand.
When it comes to middle class, one would assume that they are more interested in education, jobs, work, business than ROP and protests. But I've seen too many incidents to believe this line.

For example, a colleague of my father painted his official car green (Ijlamic colour) during Vajpayee-Sharif peace talks.. His logic, ab to hamein azadi mil ne hi waali hai

A KM neghbour employed in Civil Sectt. always cheered loudly for Pakis during matches. We were on pretty good terms otherwise. Once I saw him cheering and rebuked him in front of all his family. he never dared to raise the volume afterwards

In another similar incident, a few KMs in my college were beaten black and blue after they started cheering for Pakis.

Neither of them belonged to belonged to economically weaker sections. But love for ROP was still the same. I have no reason to believe that it has abated in last 2-3 years

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 19 Jan 2011 12:28

Gagan wrote: In any usual city, the middle class is busy educating its children, going about their jobs and are quietly patriotic, all the while blaming the political class, the police, and the bureaucracy for all the problems they have to face. Ditto in J&K.

People of the lower socio-economic strata are chronic complainers the world over. They are astute people nevertheless, more politically oriented than the rest of us, because unlike most of the middle class, they vote and are more in tune with politics. As everywhere else, a small percentage of extremists with firepower can appear to sway the majority in the direction they want. But take that firepower away and all you have is political opportunism in seeking to milk the situation.

Gagan, the sooner we dissociate education and economic status with extremism, the better it would be for us. Our assumption that "lower economic strata people" are the ones who are fodder for the Islamic extremists is true. However, the extrapolation that once these people cross the economic barrier, they would become "more patriotic" is completely false, as in J&K, as in Kerala and as in Gujarat. On the contrary, economic power lends more ammunition to the ideology of Abrahamic exclusivism.

Economic prosperity can lead to people becoming more "patriotic" and more "assimilative" only when they have a common ideological/nationalistic ground. Let us take three states and see if this is possible: Punjab, Maharashtra and Kerala.

In Punjab, the local farm owners, industry and land holders are considered to be better off agriculturally and economically than many of the other states. Ludhiana can be considered to be the largest city of Punjab. During the crop season, the city is teeming with those out of Punjab working as labourers on farms as well as in other agriculturally related fields. So the "sons of the local soil" are well off, the "sons of the national non-local soil" are equally well off. So economic prosperity leads to more assimilation and more economic activity in general.

In western Maharashtra, during the harvest season, at least till a few years back in the pre NREGA days, you could see a mass of labourers from outside the state working on the field. Now if the rate per day demanded by a local resident was Rs. 175, the labourers from outside the state, (usually AP, Orissa, Bihar) would work for Rs. 125. Now, this would lead to a problem of what exactly could the land-less local labourers do if they were replaced by equally productive people working at lower rates? So disparity would lead to simmering tensions between people. However, those who could not find jobs to work never carried out genocide of the labourers from outside the state in the name of any particular ideology, nor were there months’ long protests. Still, there would be economic prosperity for that part of the state and there would be no major problems of “assimilation”.

In “Hilltop” district in Kerala, in which you are welcome to visit Svallath Nagar every Friday, there is much of economic prosperity, so much so that its abundance negates any comparison with its title of mini-Pakistan. However, if we were to find feelings of “patriotism”, it might just remind us that the place was the epicenter of Khilafat and Moplah riots and is the epicenter of terrorism. Throw a stone at a group of Islamic terror module outside Kerala in any jail, and it might just hit our neighbourhood Mallapuram “activist”. Why has the presence of economic prosperity not stopped the meteoric rise of ideology based terror? Is it because “Sunnat of the soil” is anti-national and throwing more money just encourages more terror?

So why the Sunni Muslims drive out people who do not share the same ideology even with the presence of economic prosperity? If we answer that ,we may just dissociate ourselves from this deluded view that economic prosperity in J&K would deprive the anti-national forces of more people, would make people more "patriotic" and start waving the tricolour. Economic prosperity cannot solve the problems of “Sunnat of the soil”.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 19 Jan 2011 16:54

AjayKK beautifully put. Would mug this up for later use

.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 19 Jan 2011 17:01

The ekta yatra/tiranga yatra is really stirring up a hornet's nest, looks like, from the flurry of activity in the UPA - NC.

Good, good. If hoisting the tricolor angers and provokes, then there's need to do this more often till the provocateurs are reduced to rageboy levels of forthiness and impotence. LOL. Time for civilian India to take the fight back into the valley. Go for it, never mind the initial hiccups and stumbles, dhimmedia spin and 'international' snarking. Some things just have to be done and a few good men (n women) are all it takes. Jai hind and jai ho.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jan 2011 17:39

IMHO, the poorer sections who have to work hard for a living are likely to be more sane. The elites who are living off corruption and subsidies from Indian taxpayers are more likely to be virulent Islamists.

In any case, better not to generalize, lest we do injustice to any exceptions.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jan 2011 19:13

What Menon has left before I joined the Party.

Any way on a serious note. Am happy that a national party has chosen the republic day to hoist the national flag in a particular city. If this is seen a show of triumphalism then the people who condemn this act don't understand the meaning of the word republic and what rights it confers to the citizens of the republic. Having said so if unfurling the national flag is seen as a provocative act & the nation is seen as incapable of maintaining public peace in that area subsequent to the hoisting of the flag. Then it will be intellectually honest on part of the GOI to cede that territory. At least it will disabuse the Indian population from the notion of the strength of the Indian nation. To hell with the consequences of doing so.

But if the GOI wishes to retain that particular piece of land and the population that currently occupies that land. Then it must not get in the way of that party and what it wishes to accomplish on the Republic Day. It has to help the hoisting of the national flag not hinder it.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 19 Jan 2011 19:24

Pratyush wrote:What Menon has left before I joined the Party.

Menon birather wanted to be commit suicide by mod, paar mod ne wuse ignore kar diya

Ab attention bhore ko attention na mile toh woh yahan pe kya karega

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2011 21:49

Also I talked to some taxidrivers from Hyderabad whom we took along for the road trip in South India. They guy came form a famly of ten. And he was 7th class pass. He bemoaned the lack of education and was paying for huis sibling sot go to school. He felt large families and lack of skills upgradation were a hinderance. So its not right ot link extremisms with lower econcomic status. The worst jihadis come form well oaf families.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 01:49

Pioneer news Report

PC advises caution to jittery OmarJanuary 20, 2011 2:16:28 AM

PNS | New Delhi/Jammu

Realising the sensitivity associated with the BJP’s plan to hoist the Tricolour in Srinagar on Republic Day, the Centre and Jammu & Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah have adopted a cautious approach even as the BJP said it did not need anyone’s permission to raise the National Flag.

After a long meeting between Omar and Home Minister P Chidambaram on Wednesday morning, there were enough indications to suggest that both the sides understand the gravity of the situation and need to adopt a “cautious” approach.

“The Home Ministry has advised Omar to take ‘cautious measures’ and desist from making ‘provocative statements’ on the BJP’s Kashmir-bound Rashtriya Ekta Yatra and its plan to hoist the Tricolour at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on January 26,” an official said.

He added that the Centre was adopting a wait and watch policy, and additional forces are ready to deploy as and when the State Government demands.

According to sources, Omar has sought more deployment of security forces to tackle the situation in view of the yatra, which will enter Jammu at January 24 afternoon.

Talking to the media after 40-minute meeting with Chidambaram, Omar said he hopes the BJP would do nothing to precipitate the situation.

“I am not going into get into any specifics as to what we are going to do. As I said time and again, we are hoping that nothing will be done to precipitate the situation in Jammu & Kashmir. As we come close to January 26, we will decide what to do,” said Omar, who had asked the BJP twice to cancel the yatra.

Meanwhile, the BJP requested Omar to welcome the Ekta Yatra of Bharatiya Janata Yuva Morcha (BJYM) when it reaches the State, and asserted that it did not require a no-objection certificate from Abdullah to hoist the National Flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar.

“We don’t need a no-objection certificate from Chief Minister Omar Abdullah. Jammu & Kashmir is an integral part of the country...In fact, instead of opposing the Ekta Yatra, it would be nice if the CM welcomes it. It is his responsibility to welcome it. He is an elected representative,” BJP spokesperson Shahnawaz Hussain told the media.

Instead of making statements on BJP youth wing’s plans to hoist the Tricolour in the Valley, Abdullah should focus on ensuring that Pakistani flags are not unfurled in the State, he said.

“The CM should let Hurriyat leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani and JKLF chief Yasin Malik make statements on the issue and focus on ensuring that Pakistani flags are no hoisted in Jammu & Kashmir,” Hussain said.

In a related development, BJP’s youth wing national general secretary Nitin Navin arrived in Jammu along with a delegation to seek formal permission for the flag-hoisting ceremony. The delegation called upon Inspector General of Police (Kashmir range) SM Sahai, who expressed his inability to offer commitment. “The permission for flag-hoisting ceremony is the prerogative of the civil administration,” the IGP was reported to have told the delegation. The delegation would meet the deputy commissioner to seek permission for the event, sources said.

Shunning his earlier belligerence, the Chief Minister said he would be in close touch with the Union Home Minister on how to deal with any situation arising out of the BJP programme. Omar said he had a “fairly detailed meeting” with Chidambaram and they discussed the current situation in the State.

“The periods around January 26 and August 15 are sensitive for the State. We discussed the ongoing efforts of the interlocutors...They are currently in the State as we speak....Certain recommendations have been made by the interlocutors which we discussed,” said the Chief Minister.

Meanwhile, the Kashmir interlocutors on Wednesday asked the BJP to reconsider its plan to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar on Republic Day, fearing it could lead to law and order problems in the Valley.

“If the exercise of the right (to hoist the flag) leads to aggravating tension or to thwarting the dialogue process now underway, it should be seriously reconsidered. This is what we have conveyed to the BJP,” veteran journalist Dileep Padgaonkar, who heads the team of three interlocutors, told a press conference in Jammu.

So what is really at the root of Omar's angst?

Jihadis will revive? If so what is he doing as the CM?
or the paramilitiary forces draw down will be turned around as a response?

He needs to state his fears instead of saying what he is reported to have said.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2011 02:11

ramana wrote:So what is really at the root of Omar's angst?

Jihadis will revive? If so what is he doing as the CM?
or the paramilitiary forces draw down will be turned around as a response?

He needs to state his fears instead of saying what he is reported to have said.

That easy. Please also listen to the statement of the interlocuters, in the above report as well as what Radha Kumar told Arnab Gowswami. They don't want anything hoisted on Lal Chowk. If I add the #s, what this tells me is that everyone from MMS to Omar are afraid of going back on the commitm ents made to US & TSP: joint soverignty. They don't want to disrupt that bhaichara. The veggie terrorist made a statement somewhere that if BJP hoists the flag, it could lead to a major subcontinent conflagration. He knows what Rawilpindi has in store.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 02:24

So in other words what you are saying is by not hoisting the national flag on Republic Day in Lal Chowk that will give therm de-facto joint sovereignity? And Omar Abduallah and the UPA govt is trying to ensure that?

And they want to do it by preventing the Indian flag and painting the BJP as trouble makers?

munna · Post by **munna** » 20 Jan 2011 02:28

Some random thoughts

ramana wrote:So what is really at the root of Omar's angst?

Well for one an Ekta Yatra that moves through entire swathes of India with no regard for WKK demarcated internal border tends to pull J&K back into political mainstream of India. It also defeats a carefully cultivated image of a "special case" state that needs to be given some "political settlement" a euphemism for salami slicing and surrender of sovereignity. The so called political interlocutors in all of their wisdom were ready to do a "UC Banerjee" on J&K front and would have recommended some really harakiri-al measures. In other words they are ready to make recommendations far exceeding their brief and contitutional mandate to test the waters and to serve as ammo for the splittist camp. Before defenders of UPA jump on this argument bear in mind this (electrocutor baazi

) was to be the plausible deniability tool for the government. At least the stupid recommendations of CM of J&K being renamed PM and Governor becoming a state elected one would have served as the baseline for future talks if nothing else for the WKKs.

So Omar's immediate aim of being named PM seems to be in danger and with it the accompanying extra powers as a part of political package. Jammu and Laddakh were to be slowly strangled to irrelevance under this stratagem by WKKs.

Jihadis will revive? If so what is he doing as the CM?or the paramilitiary forces draw down will be turned around as a response?

Joke of the century if there was one! The real fear is Jammu, he fears that a rousing reception and consequent chatter will once again expose him as CM of merely valley and not entire state. Thus the valley and dilli thought police will again have to conduct the propaganda to condition the Indian mainstream. This will set the entire salami slicing process by a good measure.
Infact by repeatedly batting for Jammu the nationalist forces have ensured that political electrocutors of India in J&K won't cock a surprise snook. If there will be a political package then it shall be with a vengeance or none at all. The last time they started a yatra despite all the humgama and loss of governments they have delivered the land to the rightful heirs. They are in this for the long haul, warts and all atleast they do fight for the oppressed.

He needs to state his fears instead of saying what he is reported to have said.

He cannot

. Plain and simple onlee.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2011 02:58

ramana wrote:So in other words what you are saying is by not hoisting the national flag on Republic Day in Lal Chowk that will give therm de-facto joint sovereignity? And Omar Abduallah and the UPA govt is trying to ensure that?

And they want to do it by preventing the Indian flag and painting the BJP as trouble makers?

There is de-facto joint soverignty if not de-facto acknowledgment that valley is up for negotiation. By BJP hoisting the glag, the symbolism will put this sell out on a back foot and will make MMS's life miserable in the parliament. The US-brokered deal is that TSP scales back its terror in the valley in return for MMS not doing anything that will alter the ground situation, and slowly move towards troop reduction etc. If BJP goes ahead, TSP will surely respond. Hence the pain & suffering from the India side.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 03:15

So exactly one week to go.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Jan 2011 04:29

munna - Thanks for summerizing the effects of Ekta yatra. I did not follow too much of this.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Jan 2011 05:46

If MMS or Kangress has given such assurances then it is the duty of IM to take the similar procession and make a statement.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Jan 2011 07:05

ramana wrote:So exactly one week to go.

It will go on, albeit a damp squib. I am sure as we speak, bhai chara sentiments are being sent out to TSP & their puppeteers begging them not to go overboard, and let these "Saffron terrorists" have their few minutes of glory. I wouldn't put it past our ruling elite to be embarking on something like this. Remember, Dhuppatta showed his sekooolar credentials to TSPians by avowing that he will take care of BJP.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 07:17

While the rhetorical logic behind the flag-raising is hard to defy, the politics of BJP around this is clearly partisan and strangely, stupid (from the PoV of its own interest)...Partisan, because for the 6 Republic Day parades the BJP government presided over, they did not organise a single yatra-cum-flag raising..Didnt even talk about one...It was the time when ABV was talking about talks within the ambit of "insaaniyat" etc..

From a pure selfish perspective, a yatra of this sort, creating its own soundbites along the way, just deflects attention from the corruption related issues that the govt is on the mat over..

At a substantive level, the yatra does not achieve much - the flag will definitely have to be taken down soon after the jamboree...the "might" of the Indian state is not enhanced in any manner...And if one goes by history, it doesnt even do anything to popular consciousness - MMJ's originl yatra has been left as an embarrassing footnote in BJP's own narrative...And things in the country and in J&K are far more "normal" than it was in the early '90s - so much less motivation for people to get excited by....

munna · Post by **munna** » 20 Jan 2011 07:23

Muppalla wrote:munna - Thanks for summerizing the effects of Ekta yatra. I did not follow too much of this.

Most welcome ji! Given the political situation in the nation a state of flux exists. Motivated players with no responsibility but lots of nuisance power such as the Electrocutors of Indian nationhood can perpetrate extreme damage. All it takes is one loose sentence in the summer (how convenient) and promptly it will be 1990 again. The radia media will take the nation by storm and ask for repentance from entire nation. Lots of tears and award ceremonies later we will be left with no effective territory north of HP.

I thank Anurag for his daring gambit and for the elders to back him up. If Dhupattas and a lot of "neutral" experts were to be believed then BJP would have been long dead. They are alive and will kick the anti-nationals till kingdom comes, learn to live with it all ye' old WKKs. Even Aurangzeb with his mighty armies could not snuff out indics these FHLs don't even register for more than a blip.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Jan 2011 07:59

munnabhai,

All it takes is one loose sentence in the summer (how convenient) and promptly it will be 1990 again.

Not sure if your ref is to the 1 loose sentence spoken on that fateful day 9-dec-2009 that set Telengana regionb of Ap aflame. Things have and likely cannot be the same ever since.

Yes, it is decidedly unwise to underestimate trouble potential from the electrolocuters who are but trial balloons for HMVs in Dilli only. Sad, sad scene.

munna · Post by **munna** » 20 Jan 2011 08:40

Hari Seldon wrote: Not sure if your ref is to the 1 loose sentence spoken on that fateful day 9-dec-2009 that set Telengana regionb of Ap aflame. Things have and likely cannot be the same ever since.

Yes, it is decidedly unwise to underestimate trouble potential from the electrolocuters who are but trial balloons for HMVs in Dilli only. Sad, sad scene.

Seldon garu Telangana is indicative of the power of realizable power aspiration. Becoming a CM is always >> mere minister similarly becoming a PM >> a mere CM! Can someone really explain to the people of India why three cocktail circuit bleeding hearts appointed as mere advisors of the Home Ministry (technically their rank) are being taken so seriously and given a high profile in media. The only body capable of changing the centre state relations that is the parliament of India is totally out of loop for these Electrocutors of nationhood. Given chatter in Delhi and the warning flags raised by leader of opposition in Rajya Sabha, which by the way is a constitutional post unlike these elect$@&@&$, I am inclined to believe that without any intervention from evil nationalists K would have been delivered on platter this summer albeit by another name and form.
As far as those who believe in the usual no government can do that! Well thank the opposition benches for not letting them do that.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 20 Jan 2011 08:49

munna wrote:I am inclined to believe that without any intervention from evil nationalists K would have been delivered on platter this summer albeit by another name and form.

Not so easy...Even creation of new states require Parliamentary (and state legislature) approval..On J&K, there are more complications - there is a Parliament resolution (1994 I think) that contends that ALL of J&K is part of India..Which means that even a settlement along the current LoC will need Parliamentary approval..

Which is precisely why these "private interlocutors" are so convenient - they have no official/legal standing, they can be dumped anytime, and given the prfiles of the individuals they carry no political heft..

In short, nothing material will happen on J&K without major internal political effort..

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Jan 2011 08:58

munna wrote:I am inclined to believe that without any intervention from evil nationalists K would have been delivered on platter this summer albeit by another name and form.
As far as those who believe in the usual no government can do that! Well thank the opposition benches for not letting them do that.

munna ji, I totally agree that evil nationalists has a plan in this flag hoisting. After your post I started discussing this with the folks. I stopped for a while looking at policies and governace as nothing of such things are happening in India since the 2G saga. Even opposition is in anti-price rise or anti-corruption mode. For the first time in several months after the Amarnath yatra, the nation is having some difference to follow. Army is with BJP rally and if you can read between the lines you will get the inclination.

However, the UPA-2 ( not even XYZ of tomorrow) has no wherewittal to compromise on K even in the token way that CRamS has described. Simply impossible and I gaurantee you that we will see several deaths of type Nicolae Ceauşescu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C5%9Fescu ).

It seems the visualization of Ekta yatra has planning from the leader of opposition in RS.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Jan 2011 09:09

Army statement

The army’s Northern Command general-officer-commander-in-chief lieutenant general KT Parnaik on Saturday said hoisting of a flag and law and order is a state subject.

“It is a responsibility of the state and the state police to handle it. However, the way it has come up, if the situation worsens and a law and order problem is created, and army is called out to assist the administration, let me assure you we will take action which is in the best interest of the state and the country,” Parnaik told reporters while replying to a point question at Akhnoor, on the sidelines of investiture ceremony.

The northern command is responsible for the security of borders with Pakistan and China as well as counter-insurgency operations.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Jan 2011 09:10

I agree with the line of argument that AjayKK has put out.

I want to point out here that people who are economically better off and see hope of doing even better economically don't indulge in activities overtly that will hinder or endanger their better economic conditions.

That is left to the poor who want to be upwardly mobile, but have no avenues at all, who are willing to risk life and limb.

The point to be noted here is that in a country like India where:
1. There is relative rule of law
2. In J&K where appeasement of dissenting voices is a particular passion for the local governments
There is economic gain to be had by belonging to the dissenting group.

While it is true that economic prosperity per se doesn't cause people to change their views overnight, but when people are prosperous, this is the surest way to ensure that they are eventually thankful to the state for providing them that opportunity to develop economically.

In J&K, don't the local boys join J&K police, the CRPF and the Army? The ones who are doing all the stone pelting and taking out the rallies are, I'll bet the ones who didn't make it through or are ones who feel that they won't make it through. The stone pelters are probably doing this for pocket money. This is no intefada no matter what the Hurriyat or the pakis say.
I think we should not neglect the importance of this argument in the scheme of things.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Jan 2011 09:21

munna wrote:I am inclined to believe that without any intervention from evil nationalists K would have been delivered on platter this summer albeit by another name and form.

No sir-ji,
Not possible at all.

One point I want to make here.
If things are kept simmering, nothing new happens, dissent will grow.

It is better to let a little bit of churning happen, local and national politicians get involved, some for and some against, but with the security forces keeping things within the levels that law and order prevails, is eventually good.

The dissenters run out of arguments over time. The netas get into the thick of things and get everyone involved and energies get dissipated. This is what we mean when we say that this is a political problem and the politicians need to solve this.

Don't be afraid of the churning, don't be afraid when some arundirty roy and Geelani regurgitate BS. In the end everyone will have had their say, exhausted all arguments, and the state and the people will still be Indian citizens.

There is no way that the part of J&K that is with us is being given away.

munna · Post by **munna** » 20 Jan 2011 09:46

I think we have to understand first what is meant by "giving Kashmir" away! One form is literally the physical one whereby we agree to some unkil or tsp sponsored plan of settlement. It ain't happening and that fact is known to one and all. This tack failed in it's run between 1990-2004. The new tack is to talk Gandhi, democracy, peace and process of normalization. Under this the idea is to soft talk nation into giving seemingly innocuous measures like Sadr-e-riyasat, more subjects under state list and a morE autonomous state legislature. Under the garb of historic peace deal entire nation can be lulled into believing that kasabs of 1990 are Mandelas of today. The idea is to soft slice the territory all the while proclaiming it a victory of democracy meanwhile Jammu and Laddakh will be thrown to the dogs.
Between hoping and praying for common sense from the government and opposing all sundry machinations in our state I choose and support the latter. After Radia and Commonwealth everything in my country carries a tag,

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Jan 2011 09:52

Gagan wrote:I want to point out here that people who are economically better off and see hope of doing even better economically don't indulge in activities overtly that will hinder or endanger their better economic conditions.

What explains Pakistan then, specifically their strategy of trying to bleed India? And this fellow provides more food for thought. In the absence of an alternative vision, ideology trumps all it seems.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Jan 2011 10:00

AoA,
Pakistan is living under falsehood if they think that the people of J&K are eager to join their failed state. And that too after all the bloodshed they have caused here.

The argument to join pakistan has long ceased to be valid.

What remains is:
1. Pakistan's desire to cause disturbance in India, using J&K, Islam, Muslims etc as tools. They want to use ANY and ALL means to destroy India as a single unit.
2. The dissenters in J&K vacillate between Independence from India and Autonomy within India.

But the path to be taken to item #2 is to first speak the dissenter's language, and then gradually channel the argument to one in favour of autonomy.

Let the netas get involved and let some churning happen I say.

Added later: It is possible that this J&K issue might remain even if Pakistan gets dismantled. I am sure that there will be some vestiges of this problem remaining 50 years from now.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Jan 2011 10:08

Gagan, its not just TSP but also Amir khan who is involved keenly in J&K. The hurrirats have been given enormous leases of life and spotlight thanks to khan's untiring efforts. The normal, natural and healing process of political churning can be waylaid and hijacked when such forces are waiting for an opening to meddle further. It's better that a nationalist hedge, a position and a non-negotiable boundary be established and re-iterated occasionally at least so that blanket hijacks are not that easy anymore.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Jan 2011 10:14

Ya,
This bleeding heart liberals in the west with their love for human rights are doing two things:

1. They do humanity a huge service by bringing out lawlessness, giving voices to poor and deprived, shaming governments who abuse their citizens.
2. Meanwhile as we wait for chimeric Utopia to arrive, these organizations get used by the politicos, and intel agencies of the more developed to further their agendas to hurt nations / use as a bargain tool.

Here the caveat is that India is getting more integrated with the west. The tendency to cause mischief in India will be less and less as time progresses. Even someone like ombaba, who morally pontificates all the time, has pause to think when he gets deals signed in Nai dilli that provide employment to 50,000 americans during his watch as POTUS.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 10:17

Gagan, This is no-war war.
And must be won.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 20 Jan 2011 10:52

somnath wrote:While the rhetorical logic behind the flag-raising is hard to defy, the politics of BJP around this is clearly partisan and strangely, stupid (from the PoV of its own interest)...Partisan, because for the 6 Republic Day parades the BJP government presided over, they did not organise a single yatra-cum-flag raising..Didnt even talk about one...It was the time when ABV was talking about talks within the ambit of "insaaniyat" etc..

You dont worry about BJP, you need to worry about yourself first. What kind of a government are you living under which cant hoist its national flag in a state capital.

The actions of BJP are not partisan as some congress party chamchas want to believe, The National flag needs to be hoisted by BJP since the congress and its allied party in J&K are afraid to hoist it

somnath wrote:From a pure selfish perspective, a yatra of this sort, creating its own soundbites along the way, just deflects attention from the corruption related issues that the govt is on the mat over..

From a pure selfish perspective, the opposition to the yatra shows the timidity of some coward people who shouldnt be in this country, they should be deported at the earliest since they dont respect the national flag

somnath wrote:At a substantive level, the yatra does not achieve much - the flag will definitely have to be taken down soon after the jamboree...the "might" of the Indian state is not enhanced in any manner...And if one goes by history, it doesnt even do anything to popular consciousness -

That is your wish and not what is going to happen

somnath wrote:MMJ's originl yatra has been left as an embarrassing footnote in BJP's own narrative...

Embrassing

For whom? The cowards who are afraid of hoisting their national flag like congress, marx worshipping goons and the pakistani dogs

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Jan 2011 13:55

somnath wrote:While the rhetorical logic behind the flag-raising is hard to defy, the politics of BJP around this is clearly partisan and strangely, stupid (from the PoV of its own interest)...Partisan, because for the 6 Republic Day parades the BJP government presided over, they did not organise a single yatra-cum-flag raising..Didnt even talk about one...It was the time when ABV was talking about talks within the ambit of "insaaniyat" etc..

Care to explain how is it partisan ?
Why would BJP need to hoist a national flag during it's tenure , the stone throwers and azadi seekers raised their ugly head only recently actually the rot started with the PDP gobmint as usual supported by CON party.

From a pure selfish perspective, a yatra of this sort, creating its own soundbites along the way, just deflects attention from the corruption related issues that the govt is on the mat over..

No it does not with 24*7 news channels a lot of bandwidth is available to cover all these issues (the bollycrap might have to take a backseat though).You need not worry likes of Arnab Goswami will take care of the coverage part.

At a substantive level, the yatra does not achieve much - the flag will definitely have to be taken down soon after the jamboree

And that is what BJP and the 'right' would want to see as to who these 'mofos' are.

the "might" of the Indian state is not enhanced in any manner...And if one goes by history, it doesnt even do anything to popular consciousness

Oh please sir , we have seen the might of the Indian state (63 years and counting) and as far as history of J&K is concerned there is nothing to cheer about (unless one applies MMS logic and gives credit to the RAJ era for accession of J&K to India)

MMJ's originl yatra has been left as an embarrassing footnote in BJP's own narrative

Oh no not embarrassing per se but an 'eye opener' for sure i.e. affirmation of the fact that a huge % of the electorate has more important issues to address than J&K. Having said that if this act manages to shrink the CON party's vote bank in the state the 'gimmick' would serve it's purpose.There is a substantial portion of the 'majority' vote bank that prefers to sit along the side ropes and this plays into the hands of maggots that constitute the INC if these are excited/agitated suitably they would too take a stand, more importantly the 'right' one.

And things in the country and in J&K are far more "normal" than it was in the early '90s - so much less motivation for people to get excited by

And I think you might have accounted for the increase in the penetration of the electronic media it's role and more importantly the general awareness of the common man of today as compared to the 90s.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Jan 2011 15:05

Ekta Yatra Enters Delhi Today

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 20 Jan 2011 16:13

Yesterday, It was in Mathura and I met Anurag Thakur also. Have known him for few years. I am all for the yatra, This should become and annual event like the Amarnath Yatra and people should join the movement. I am firm on joining the yatra next year onwards.

This is going to serve some very important messages to the MMS & Maino Cohorts...

1. Indians are watching and there is no way they can have blanket rights on the issues of territorial integrity or nature of federalism India is to have.

2. They can not speak on the behalf of the entire country with around 33% of the total votes polled for them as a coalition

3. We have sacrificed 70000 lives of young men and women to have this land in the current form. We will not be scared or lulled into accepting some mumbo-jumbo to have Piss and develop to become $5 Tn economy. This bull crap can be kept at 10 janpath and 7 Race course

I want to see who are MOFOs come out in open to stop this flag hoisting. Unfortunately, BJP is low key about the yatra in newspapers and newsroom.

THIS MUST BECOME A MASS MOVEMENT and lead to eventual dilution of 356.

I am no supporter of BJP even though I hate Congress. This is one move from BJP, I whole heartedly support and thi sis not castiest or communal.

Gadkari is finally doing some good for the nation.

aditya · Post by **aditya** » 20 Jan 2011 16:37

JK CM's plea to Centre to hinder Ekta Yatra

BJP has rejected Omar's appeal after his meeting with UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi and the Home Minister on Wednesday and the BJP vowed to continue its Ekta Yatra from Kolkata to Srinagar.

Will Congress(I) have the guts to openly join the yatra instead of hindering it?

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 20 Jan 2011 17:05

Five star Nationalism
"Anurag Thakur, who is leading the Rashtriya Ekta Yatra, is opting for most luxurious hotels in the cities on the route for his day breaks and night halts. A day before the Yatra began, he stayed at Spring Club in Kolkata on January 11. At Durgapur in West Bengal, the city where the Yatra took a first day break, he stayed at Rose Valley, one of the best hotels in the city.

Later, he stayed at Canary Inn at Hazaribagh in Jharkhand, Hotel Maurya in Patna, Hotel Ramada in Varanasi, Hotel Prakash Residency in Jhansi, a VVIP guest house at Lucknow and Panna Palace in Agra, all high-end hotels. Last night, he stayed at Haryana government guest house, Macfi, in Faridabad," said a youth leader, who is part of the Yatra.

Surprisingly, according to sources, the youth leader cancelled his stay in towns like Arrah in Bihar, Jaunpur and Unnao in UP and Barakhata in Jharkhand just because these economically backward places didn't have a luxurious accommodation.

"Anurag preferred to break his journey in Patna, despite his initial plan to stay in Arrah (Bihar) because of the unavailability of a luxury hotel there. For similar reasons, he also skipped his scheduled stays in places like Barakhata, Jaunpur and Unnao and preferred to halt at Hazaribagh, Varanasi and Lucknow," said the youth leader.

So this guy Anurag Thakur , a Bourgeois upper caste who stays only in five star hotels, is going to be the face of India in the valley? And we are supposed to glorify his nationalism, wah!