J&K News and Discussion-2011

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Nov 2011 17:03

DocJi and RamanaJi, two erudite BR veterans, you both make excellent points, and I agree DocJi, that chutiya is best ignored. I'll give both of you an A, but not an A+. Here is why

The latter is done by means of cordon-and-search operations - a 'crackdown' in local parlance - where the entire male population of a locality is corralled into an adjoining area while the troops go house to house in search of the mujahideen .

See the bolded part, thats classic Paki & KM speak. They are not terrorists, but "freedom fighters", and this is how even the "argumentative Indian" characterizes it. So now you know what his larger gripe is, his and his like-minded pukes who dominate the media circuit in India.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 03 Nov 2011 17:58

CRamS ji, To turn the argument around, Word mujahideen today is synonyms with Terrorists. Mujahideen and terrorists are now interchangeable terms.

As far OA "trying to play nice or a bullet goes through his head.", to give devil his due, his vote base lies in Kashmir primarily and KM's want AFSPA to be removed. He is simply pandering to the cheap local sentiments and is no better or worse than MSY or MMS.
His stance would not protect him from the bullet as we have seen in the past. To me, he still is more Indian than snake in the grass people like Mufti syed or Saifudin soz.

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Nov 2011 19:24

X Posted from the Turkey thread.

During a bilateral meeting with Turkeys Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu in Istanbul on the sidelines of a security conference on Afghanistan our External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna makes known India’s displeasure with Turkish President Abdullah Gul’s UN speech:

India protests Kashmir mention in Turkish president's UN speech

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 21:00

The Buck Stops Here: Amidst a raging controversy over a partial withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in Jammu and Kashmir, the state's Chief Minister has said that the time has come to stop waiting for an elusive consensus and take a chance with his peace proposal. In his first detailed interview since the debate erupted, Omar Abdullah told NDTV that he has stuck his neck out and he stands by his intention. Asked about accusations of unilateralism and not taking the Army along with him, the Chief Minister said he would call another meeting of the unified command to discuss the issue formally.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 21:01

Kashmir: MFN status to India 'a potential watershed', says Mufti

Kashmir: MFN status to India 'a potential watershed', says Mufti
THURSDAY, 03 NOVEMBER 2011 17:57 SRINAGAR: KDNN

Welcoming the Pakistan's decision to grant India Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status, Peoples Democratic party (PDP) patron Mufti Mohammed Sayeed Thursday described "it as a bold decision by a democratic government which could redefine the bilateral relations and regional equations in South Asia".

"It is a dream scenario for the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have been the worst victims of Indo-Pak hostility," he said.

Describing the decision as a potential watershed, Mufti, however, regretted the lack of progress on Kashmir.

“The decision could prove a watershed in the history between two neighbours but the government of India has to ensure that the situation in Jammu and Kashmir matches the improving Indo-Pak diplomatic scenario, to make the new initiative credible and sustainable. Both India and Pakistan should seize the moment and turn it into a stepping stone to make substantial progress on Kashmir,” he said.

He said his party’s 'Self Rule' proposition being anchored in Indo Pak amity could become a reality with progress on trade front and take the state out of the siege that had severely restricted our economic, political and social growth ever since partition.

Mufti said it was regrettable that no follow up action was taken on the decisions taken at the last foreign minister’s meeting about J&K specific trade and travel issues.

"Neither has any progress been made on trade front nor have the hassles on travel been eased as had been announced, Mufti said reminding the government of India about the decision to allow more people to travel across the LOC apart from the divided families. Similarly, he said no banking or communication facilities have been provided to back up trade between two sides nor had routes like Kargil-Skardu been opened as promised," he said.

Commenting on the internal situation in the state, where people are being pushed back into alienation and anger as a result of mounting mistrust and governance deficit, Mufti said this could cast its shadow on any progress on the external front.

He said an insensitive, arrogant and most corrupt administration had been foisted on the state that had frittered away all gains of the past in just three years of its misrule could as well undermine the larger effort.

“Unless this situation changes and the people of J&K are given a sense of participation in the new initiative not much could be achieved by way of a resolution of the problem that has bedevilled the Indo Pak history for six decades,” he said.

Mufti said the uneasy calm clamped on the state could derail even the most sincere and well meaning effort at achieving a lasting peace. “Nowhere in the country could school going teenage kids be paraded in handcuffs just to create a sense of fear that is sustaining the present calm,” he said referring to recent reports on the issue.

Mufti said while the state government always lacked legitimacy in view of the ‘tactical rigging’ in last elections, the NC had now lost claim even to being a political organization in view of recent exposure of its internal set up based on money. “Both the government and the party are thriving on lies, corruption and dubious patronage which has brought the growth and development of the state to a standstill shaking further the faith of people in democratic system,” he said.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 21:03

Google is a penetratoin tool of the Uncle govt.
Check the name of the NGO which is helping it

Google team in Kashmir 'miffed' with local partner

Google team in Kashmir 'miffed' with local partner
THURSDAY, 03 NOVEMBER 2011 17:18 SRINAGAR: TABISH NASEER

A team from Google- the search engine giant, which is currently touring Kashmir valley to spot local talent, is ‘miffed’ with its local partner Mecry Crops ‘after the later announced a joint press conference without taking them into confidence’, sources said here on Thursday.

Sources said a joint press conference that was called at the beginning of 5-day tour was cancelled as the eight-member team refused to be a part of it.

“Mercy Corps and Google will address a press conference at 10.am,” read the invite of the event named 'g|kashmir' which is being hosted at the SKICC, here.

The Google team, which along with its local partner Mercy Corps- an International Development Agency, during the five-day programme would analyze and cultivate the skills of entrepreneurship and digital tools to support development of technology and empowerment in the Valley.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 21:06

Turkey "apologises" for raising Kashmir issue in UN
PTI Nov 2, 2011, 08.19pm IST
Tags:
united nations|UN General Assembly|S M Krishna
ISTANBUL: Turkey today expressed apologies for raking up the Kashmir issue in the UN General Assembly after India conveyed its "unhappiness" over the matter.

External Affairs Minister S M Krishna met his Turkish counterpart Ahmet Davutoglu on the sidelines of Istanbul conference during which Krishna conveyed the country's "surprise and unhappiness."

"India conveys its surprise and unhappiness on the UN General Assembly speech of the Prime Minister of Turkey wherein Kashmir was refereed to. India conveys that Kashmir is part and parcel of India and has a democratically-elected state government," official sources told PTI.

Clarifying his country's position, Davutoglu said the purpose was not to internationalise the issue of Kashmir, according to officials.

"...apologize if it has hurt the sentiments of Indians," the Turkish Minister said.

Officials said the minister explained that Turkish Prime Minister just commented that India is having a dialogue with Pakistan and meant that the Kashmir issue was between India and Pakistan.

Davutoglu also asserted that his country wanted close ties with India.

During his speech in UNGA on September 22 this year, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan had said "the illegitimate invasion of Azerbaijani territories, which has been going on for many years now, must end. It is unacceptable to let the Nagorno-Karabakh issue remain unresolved as such. Finding solutions to international problems before they become acute is a political and moral responsibility for all of us.

"In this respect, more effective efforts have to be exerted to resolve the Kashmir issue and many other frozen disputes which I can't name here."

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2011 21:12

Will Google dot the mass graves and Indian military garrisons in Kashmir?

Kashmir Watch report

Srinagar: The global digital giant, Google/Youtube is organizing an important social event on Thursday, November 3, 2011 in Srinagar, the India-held Kashmir capital, appearing much in the world media for India’s deployment of over 700,000 military, paramilitary and informal forces, consensually seen as the biggest concentration in today’s world.

Another factor that makes Srinagar, in fact whole of India-held Kashmir and Jammu, banner headlined across the region and the world is the discovery of hundreds of thousands of graves spread over acres after acres of landmass in which are dumped dead bodies of those categorized missing persons: indeed India-held Kashmir is a sprawling scene of brutalities and savagery unmatched in history.

Every top, plain, slope and vale is dotted with Indian military garrisons, an atmosphere that suppresses emergence of youth talent and socio-academic drive. It will be logically advisable that Google surveys these spots. European parliamentarian John Cushnahan had once described in his report Kashmir as the beautiful prison on earth.

Mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers of thousands of missing Kashmir persons, chiefly youth would like to meet Google event recording management to ventilate their unattended woes erupting out of the two decades long unknown whereabouts of their dear ones. The Kashmir struggle is linked with the British archival departure from South Asian subcontinent in 1947.
Will Google dot the mass graves and Indian military garrisons in Kashmir?

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 03 Nov 2011 21:51

"It is a dream scenario for the people of Jammu and Kashmir who have been the worst victims of Indo-Pak hostility," he said.

KM's have milked both India and Bakistan to max. so where is the worst victim thing coming from.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 03 Nov 2011 22:30

Acharya wrote:Google is a penetratoin tool of the Uncle govt.
Check the name of the NGO which is helping it

Google team in Kashmir 'miffed' with local partner

Google team in Kashmir 'miffed' with local partner
THURSDAY, 03 NOVEMBER 2011 17:18 SRINAGAR: TABISH NASEER

A team from Google- the search engine giant, which is currently touring Kashmir valley to spot local talent, is ‘miffed’ with its local partner Mecry Crops ‘after the later announced a joint press conference without taking them into confidence’, sources said here on Thursday.

Sources said a joint press conference that was called at the beginning of 5-day tour was cancelled as the eight-member team refused to be a part of it.

“Mercy Corps and Google will address a press conference at 10.am,” read the invite of the event named 'g|kashmir' which is being hosted at the SKICC, here.

The Google team, which along with its local partner Mercy Corps- an International Development Agency, during the five-day programme would analyze and cultivate the skills of entrepreneurship and digital tools to support development of technology and empowerment in the Valley.

So many evangelical organizations operating in J&K. I wonder what the number of crypto christians in the region really is.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 05 Nov 2011 09:10

Kashmir separatists find a place to spread their message of murder and forced conversions at Bangalore, 4:30 pm on Nov 5.

Bangalore ALERT - Friends, Please be there on 5th November from 4.30 pm to 7 pm @ Rafiki Workspace, KK Foundation Trust, Opp Al Ameen Hospital, Miller’s Tank Bund Road, Off Cunningham Road, Bangalore to counter hate propaganda of separatists of Kashmir

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Nov 2011 17:15

Trekking with Ladakh's first female guide

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Nov 2011 21:46

No comments:
Omar Abdullah toughens stance against Army over AFSPA

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Nov 2011 21:51

Omar has to go.

skher · Post by **skher** » 10 Nov 2011 03:32

Acharya wrote:
Amidst a raging controversy over a partial withdrawal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in Jammu and Kashmir, the state's Chief Minister has said that the time has come to stop waiting for an elusive consensus and take a chance with his peace proposal. In his first detailed interview since the debate erupted.

Veni,vidi, vici -" I came, I saw, I won". That's how professional armies operate. Not, "Er...I think i'll come again, with your permission in triplicate, we'll see the consequences, somebody eventually, will, surely win".

If one doesn't like the Army operating in these landlocked, mountainous areas, fine.Like Manipur,one doesn't ask the olive green to come again.

AFSPA is there to remind everyone concerned, that the forces will give no quarter, and take no prisoners. Moreover, the act tells us that it is the local administration's, not the force's fault, that they cannot reap the peace dividend through police capacity. No excuses. Punjab and Chandigarh also were under AFSPA in 1983/4.The Punjab police still does good against insurgents.

The Army is not a pet project. Electricity,education and health are.Funnily enough, in that sphere too the army is assisting with Op Sadbhavna - the confidence builder for removal. Hence, the forces seem keener to relieve themselves of the duties; than the local administration.

Pratyush wrote:Omar has to go

No, the Hon'ble Chief minister will stay to develop JK&L.He is single ray of hope for all concerned.IMHO, devolution for all districts of Jammu and Ladakh is likely to help him focus all his attention on the Kashmir region.
Methods could be:
1.Add under the Seventh Schedule
2.Directly elected mayors
3.or the earlier Agency system can be put in place also for Jammu/Ladakh.

Confidence in devolving power expresses confidence in state adminstration,as indicated by the high turnout for panchayat elections.

The Hon'ble Minister has a lot to work, AFSPA can expedite resolution of politically motivated matters.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Nov 2011 07:43

Army wants AFSPA to stay, Omar insists Act must go

With the CRPF, BSF and the intelligence agencies siding with Abdullah, the meeting remained inconclusive.

Find a link between CRPF/BSF and our Home Minister.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Nov 2011 07:51

Personally if I were PM of India,

I would pull the AFSPA and bring the Army into barracks. If the situation stays below threshold, it is good for OA, his hunch cold be correct too. But if he is wrong then I will make sure that terrorism claims the lives of everyone that he cares for (I will be secular in the process) and finally get the heads of all RNIs.

Since I believes in rebirth they would come back to pay their dues.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Nov 2011 08:48

If the Army hasn't operated in the identified regions in recent years, its a perfectly valid proposal. Its unrealistic to expect the militancy to come down to zero anytime soon. And there has been a world of change in the scenario compared to what it was a decade ago.

Most new incidents of militancy have occured in border areas and are primarily checked infiltration attempts. And while the bulk of the credit for that goes to the Army, the J&K Police has played no mean role. Its certainly done a good enough job to be entrusted with few relatively peaceful regions. Nothing for example prevents the SOG from operating in Srinagar or Budgam should circumstances call for it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2011 11:51

abhishek_sharma wrote:Army wants AFSPA to stay, Omar insists Act must go

With the CRPF, BSF and the intelligence agencies siding with Abdullah, the meeting remained inconclusive.
Find a link between CRPF/BSF and our Home Minister.

No need to, they are controlled by the HM. As it is, they don't need the ASFPA to operate, so they don't care if it stays or goes.

The ARMY OTOH needs it to operate, so it is fighting to keep it. If it goes, the Army will return to the Baracks.

This is a needless self goal on the nation by the young jerks.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Nov 2011 18:45

My government has authority to revoke AFSPA: Omar Abdullah

Thank you UPA.

aditya · Post by **aditya** » 11 Nov 2011 02:59

AFSPA: Farooq Abdullah asks Mustafa Kamal to quit NC posts

Mustafa Kamal is pretty much a Kashmiri Digvijay Singh but has actually been given the sack.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 66982.aspx

With the CRPF, BSF and the intelligence agencies siding with Abdullah, the meeting remained inconclusive.

This does not seem to be entirely accurate as the following report places the army and BSF on the same side:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... r-abdullah

Sources said that Army generals and BSF officers apprised the chief minister about the implications of the withdrawal of the Act from certain areas. However, the CRPF and the state police chief Kuldeep Khoda endorsed chief minister Omar Abdullah's view. The two vociferously advocated the removal of AFSPA from some areas of the state in the wake of improved security situation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2011 03:12

Pravin Swami reports:

LINK

The Army's top commander in Jammu and Kashmir has said the country could be compelled to grant the State independence by 2016 if government plans to lift the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act from some areas go ahead, highly-placed security sources have told The Hindu.

The assertion was made on Wednesday in an over hour-long presentation to the Unified Headquarters, the State's top coordination body for security, by Lieutenant-General Syed Ata Hasnain, who commands the Srinagar-based XV Corps.

Army officials would not confirm the contents of the presentation, but three officials present at the meeting separately provided The Hindu with the same account of what was said.

The presentation also included a slide, which asserted that while the State people were seeking bijli, sadak, paani (electricity, roads, water), calls for lifting the AFSPA were coming from four categories: Pakistan, the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, terrorists and secessionists.

{Which category does Omar Abdullah belong to? I would go with the General's views}

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, who chairs the Unified Headquarters, interjected to ask Lt. Gen. Hasnain to leave a copy of the slide behind, so he could “see where I fit in.” {Two categories: Secessionist and/or terrorist}

The presentation made no mention of the fact that the demand for lifting the AFSPA has been supported by Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram and forms part of the recommendations of the recently submitted report of three interlocutors

Lt.-Gen. Hasnain claimed that lifting the AFSPA would provoke large-scale disturbances which, in the context of the looming withdrawal of western forces from Afghanistan and the enhanced presence of members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference on the United Nations Security Council, would lead to Jammu and Kashmir's independence.

The Army's assessment was, however, disputed by representatives of other security forces. Special Director-General of the Central Reserve Police Force Aniruddh Uppal said there was no evidence to suggest a large-scale upsurge in violence was round the corner.

{Mr Uppal works for PC and MHA. His bossess already decided the repeal of AFSPA. Besides the general made an estimate. He didn't say it was round the corner. He said is US draws down in Afghanistan and OIC launches a campaign in UNSC it could lead to violence. So two factors have to be there.}

Inspector General of Police in-charge of the region S.M. Sahai said recent events — including suspects held for last month's bombing of the Delhi High Court and last summer's mob violence — showed that future threats would come not from large-scale insurgency, but from the influence of Islamist radicalism among small groups of alienated young people.

Mr. Abdullah did not return calls from The Hindu, but officials present at the meeting said he made no direct response to the Army's claims.

He noted that a core group set up to discuss AFSPA related matters — made up of the commanders of the XV Corps, the Nagrota-based XVI Corps, the Intelligence Bureau and the Director-General of Police — had yet to come to an agreement a year after it was set up, the sources said.

On Thursday, Mr. Abdullah hinted that he would take a unilateral decision if the deadlock continued. He said the authority to lift the AFSPA “rests with the Governor, who would act on the basis of the State government's recommendations.”

The Jammu and Kashmir government has called for a phased rollback of AFSPA on a test basis, pointing to the dramatically-improved law and order situation in the state. The plan envisages that, in the first phase, AFSPA will be removed from areas of the districts of Srinagar and Badgam where the Indian Army has not been present for several years—and therefore does not need the special powers vested by the legislation.

Even though Mr Chidambaram has supported demands for the phased lifting of AFSPA, the Intelligence Bureau additional director representing the organisation at the meeting took no position on the issue.

{Doesn't want to upset his polticial boss. But not willing to speak the truth when needed.}

New Delhi-based military officials refused to discuss the meeting on-record, but a senior commander familiar with Jammu and Kashmir defended Lieutenant-General Hasnain’s remarks, saying it was the "army’s job to consider worst-case scenarios and prepare for them".

I see that Pravin Swami is indulging in Chindu tactics of trying to find division in the military ranks.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Nov 2011 07:07

I am afraid that AFSPA may be revoked, at least in some parts of Kashmir by the honourable Home Minister over-ruling the IA. This is part of the 'extra mile' charm offensive by India against Pakistan and probably is happening under American prompting. The IA has sensed the mood and is desperately trying to do its best to retain it. The IA must make it very clear to the Home Minister that in future, the IA must not be deployed for internal disturbances at all anywhere within the country. I hope that A.K. Antony thwarts this internal subversion and resigns as Defence Minister if not from the Congress party, if he cannot.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Nov 2011 07:36

Army to stop ops if Omar lifts AFSPA?

In an indication of the growing chasm between the Army and the J&K government, senior military sources indicated on Thursday that the former might suspend counter-insurgency operations if chief minister Omar Abdullah unilaterally lifted the controversial Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) from parts of the state.

The Army had suspended operations in 1996-97, when the then Farooq Abdullah government had replaced two corps commanders as security advisors with a senior police officer. It finally relented and came out of its barracks again only after the state government backtracked on its decision and restored the positions to its officers.

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Nov 2011 09:19

^^ Wow, now the UPA-II has managed to get the IA into a almost revolt mode in J&K??

Truely class governance

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 11 Nov 2011 10:36

Hmmm! So now even army and its advice is not sacrosanct for this govt.
So they remove AFSPA, army no longer operates in that area and in 2 years when the situation goes worse, OA/MMS go back to army with their tail between the legs asking for help and then blame that even army can't finish of the terrorists in few days.

Why can't OA and HM go out and take up position fighting the terrorists and stand in inhuman conditions guarding the borders. Oh wait, OA gets his own man killed for few rupees and now claims immunity while Chiddu is busy finding "saffron" terrorists for == purpose.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 11 Nov 2011 10:45

Kashmir is gradually being "loosened". we are seeing the beginnings of a power transfer to the Islamists and their backers. the consequence will be that the Gangetic and Punjab plains will be surrounded on almost all sides by hostile interests. on the Pak, Kashmir, Nepal, PRC, Beedi....yup the entire fertile plains region of Punjab+GV is being surrounded.....

where are we headed?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Nov 2011 10:56

The greatest threat to India isn't Pakistan (or international Islamism)... nor is it China, nor the United States or the West.

Those things pale in comparison to the real danger.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 11 Nov 2011 11:04

For a very long time, I have been saying that Man Mohan has his heart set on a few things

1) Emasculating Indian nuclear forces completely

2) Destroying strategic autonomy for India

3) Gifting away Kashmir for "peace"

He is possible the worst sort of ***** that can exist -- worse than the Maino clan actually.

It is all coming true now -- we can see it in action.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Nov 2011 11:11

Sanku, it ALL derives from the Maino darbar.

MMS may, as a separate matter, have his heart set on doing those things, but he is getting blessings and encouragement to do them from the Maino clan... otherwise, he couldn't do them. The ideological cancer on the body politic, represented by the extra-constitutional NAC, is perfectly in sync with the kind of thought process that Manmohan Singh invests in this.

As against these things, mere loss of 1.77 lakh crore in a scam etc. are nothing at all. I wouldn't fear a government that was merely corrupt.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Nov 2011 11:31

Rudradev wrote:Sanku, it ALL derives from the Maino darbar.

MMS may, as a separate matter, have his heart set on doing those things, but he is getting blessings and encouragement to do them from the Maino clan... otherwise, he couldn't do them. The ideological cancer on the body politic, represented by the extra-constitutional NAC, is perfectly in sync with the kind of thought process that Manmohan Singh invests in this.

As against these things, mere loss of 1.77 lakh crore in a scam etc. are nothing at all. I wouldn't fear a government that was merely corrupt.

So when NDA was in power there was always accusations in Media of some RSS Hidden agenda, actually UPA is the one with Hidden agendas eh?

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Nov 2011 12:15

MKB jumps into the AFSPA debate and predictably is on the side of <you know who>:

A.K.Antony needs to make a tough choice

The mystique of Thiruvananthapuram never wears off - even after a 62-year old life spent in 10 different capital cities in the world. What a splendid sight that a chief minister would subject himself to a punishing Mass Contact Programme in the heart of the city in an open public stadium where he would hear out public grievances for 15 hours at a stretch from 9.30 am on Thursday all the way till 12.30 am on Friday.
.....
Again, where else but in Thiruvananthapuram could India’s defence minister A.K.Antony come and lament that Gandhiji has few takers now amongst we Indians! And that too when the militarization of India’s foreign policy is so far advanced under his own stewardship. But unlike Chandy, Antony was being merely perfunctory.
How else could Antony be a mute witness to the Army’s refusal to budge when a democratically elected leader Omar Abdullah makes the minimalist demand that the AFSPA should be lifted at least from those parts of J&K that have been tranquil for years? Antony couldn’t be subscribing to the Army’s contention that Kashmiris are unvarnished secessionists and deserve the draconian law to put good sense into them?
Abdullah doesn’t claim to be a Gandhian and he is willing to use state coercion selectively to deal with situations when or if mass alienation explodes into violence. That is reasonable. The point of contention here is actually that in future the Army should subject itself to the country’s laws over any alleged instances of atrocities against innocent civilians rather than taking shelter behind the AFSPA.
Antony has two choices: he should either quit his job when he is unable to assert civilian supremacy, or he should cease to profess devotion to Gandhiji’s ideals. The two can’t go hand in hand. In this case, Home Minister P.Chidambaram seems to concur with Abdullah’s submission. Yet, PC never claims himself to be a true Gandhian. Nor Chandy.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Nov 2011 14:01

^^^One silver lining - the IA leadership is congnizant of the developments in the geo-political arena and takes these variables into account while formulating their policies and strategies. NDC (national defence college) is doing its job. Good going.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Nov 2011 14:55

Scrapping AFSPA not Omar's call, Antony makes it clear

Something's got to give. This cannot go on as if it is business as usual. Either the national security establishment blinks or the State Govt blinks.

If Omar blinks in spite of backing from the youraj it will be a victory for the national power.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Nov 2011 17:54

sum wrote: A.K.Antony needs to make a tough choice

How else could Antony be a mute witness to the Army’s refusal to budge when a democratically elected leader Omar Abdullah makes the minimalist demand that the AFSPA should be lifted at least from those parts of J&K that have been tranquil for years? Antony couldn’t be subscribing to the Army’s contention that Kashmiris are unvarnished secessionists and deserve the draconian law to put good sense into them?

By loudly proclaiming that the bolded part can't be true, its absurd, MKB can't duck the reality as do many a pseudo secularists and RNIs. The fact of the matter is that KMs are a bunch of secessionist scum in cahoots with TSP, and hence the need for AFSPA. Unless this underlying reality is dealt with, one way or the other, all these calls for removal of AFSPA is a side show.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Nov 2011 22:43

There's lot of rhetoric about Islamist, secessionists, terrorists, and traitors on thread and little actual debate about the merits of the state government's proposal.

I think the areas in question have been peaceful long enough for the the Disturbed Areas Act to be lifted, and that the J&K Police and CRPF and more than well equipped to handle any fluctuation in the situation. Is my patriotism in in question now?

When the Army tries to order T-90s and junk the Arjun, or the IAF orders C-17s from the US, questions are raised on the forum and a debate takes place. Yet forum members seem to be willing to accept the Army's line on this issue as a matter of principle, without going into specifics at all. Its possible that some folks generally aren't very versed with the complexities of the state and find it simpler to paint the entire region with a broad brush, but surely that can't amount for the degree of rhetoric on the thread or the altogether lack of dissension.

After all we aren't talking about Baramulla or Sopore here. How much disruption is likely from lifting the AFSPA from Kathua?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Nov 2011 23:29

After 20 pages...
One small pooch. Can the AFSPA be reinstated quickly if there is a problem. Or does does it take a 2/3 majority in parliament to make it happen. Despite all the poisoned history there are still good people amongst the KM. At some point they have to be able to live normally as well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2011 23:55

ViVS, The issue is if its revoked partially those areas can become safe havens for terrorists. That is the main argument besides others. The others are OA is acting as if IA is an occupying force where as it is IA that restored law an dorder to those very areas he wnats to remove AFSPA. Its his attitude that is troubling.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 12 Nov 2011 00:47

Ramana, how about "[publicly give the] key in the hands of the suspected thief"...

OA, by demanding withdrawal of AFSPA in certain districts, is essentially undertaking that those areas will not become terrorist safe-havens because he is assuming responsibility for keeping them terrorist-free through the state law and order machinery. Home Ministry of India, by supporting this, is also assuming responsibility for this, and undertaking to keep these areas safe with CRPF etc.

This means OA (and PC) come directly into the line of fire and have to accept the blame if things go bad in those areas again. They cannot shrug their shoulders later and say it was IA's fault, because now IA has nothing to do with COIN in those areas.

In a sense, the politicos' assumption of direct responsibility for security in those areas is better than the kind of "governance without responsibility" that Maino and her NAC have been engaging in.

Certainly it will be bad for army morale if they have to go into those areas and do sarp-vinaash again at some future point. But as against that, the whole "interloper-locutor" approach to the J&K issue will have been discredited. At that point nationalists can say... ok we gave you the space to try that and it failed; the political resolve (and popular support) for other approaches will thus increase.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 12 Nov 2011 01:02

What I don't understand about Omar Abdullah's stance is the following:

He wants to remove the AFSPA from districts where the Army is not currently deployed. Question is, what does that achieve? The allegation I have heard is that AFSPA potentially gives cover to the Army if they commit human rights violations. But if the Army is not even deployed in these districts, how can they commit any action. So what is the point of removing the AFSPA from those districts?

Now, where the Army is deployed, AFSPA is a necessity.

So, we have a Catch 22 situation here.

AFSPA has to stay everywhere