India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 23 Aug 2011 19:43

Nice pictures of Austrian Typhoons intercepting an A-380 on a training mission..

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -a380.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Aug 2011 17:46

VAYU says that the M-2000 upgrade will cost approx $79million per aircraft (53) and the upgrades will be completed in 9 years!!! This is simply ridiculous,what gives? For this price we could've got at least 100 new aircraft of either Gripens or MIG-35s. The MIG-29 upgrade for 60+ aircraft too is costing is just under $1 billion for the lot. working out to about $15m per aircraft.

I can only reason that a deal has already been made to drop the ticket price of the Rafale below the Typhoon and the extra moolah for the M-2000 upgrades ....,you know the answer!

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 24 Aug 2011 18:59

Yes... this makes it reasonable to go with the French. But, what if to keep the French happy with M2000 upgrade and go for Typhoon. If this happens (Typhoon selected with costly upgrade of M2000), then it will prove that, India has not learnt anything with its own economic progress.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 26 Aug 2011 17:47

As Jack Sparrow said in the Pirates of Carribean, "I'm having a thought here."

If EFT wins, ditch the Jaguar, order Extra EFT with the Jaguar upgrade money and order the M-2000 upgrade.
If Rafale wins ditch the M-2000 upgrade, buy extra Rafale fighters with the upgrade money and go for the Jaguar upgrade.

Savy?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 27 Aug 2011 12:52

AFM Article Typhoon vs Rafale in Aug issue
http://ifile.it/9euc8qw/Rafale%20vs%20Typhoon.zip

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 27 Aug 2011 14:59

Rafale can have the Kaveri as well. So having more thrust and better performance. So its better to have a MKI'zed version of the Rafale having Indian engine and other Indian components and weapons. May be the current version of the Kaveri engine can be tried on the Rafale even before it goes into Tejas.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Aug 2011 17:55

wtf? it is our defence and tax paying money.. we are not here to keep every supplier nation on the planet happy. are we not strong enough to command what we need for the money?

$80m a pop, should keep the upgrades to junkyard and focus on increase MMRCA numbers.. or focus on fgfa or AMCA. This stop gap doesn't make sense..

We can have both 50 Rafale, and 126 Ef2K if need me.. let us stop this mindless upgrade for ransom.

/rant

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2011 14:44

The IMR has some interesting stats on IAF crashes.Most are of the MIG-21/27 types,the oldest in service,MIG-21s long past their pension dates.We will still be operating them until 2017.Some interesting stats on the crashes,types,where the M-2000s and twin-engined Jaguars have a good safety record.The MIG crashes,most due to the (40% pilot error stat),areput down to the lack of an AJT despite the La Fontaine recommendation which was finally decided upon 20 years later! The MIG-21 is an unforgiving aircraft and it is only now that the Hawk factor is alleviating the problems of pilot training.

There is another report on the Chinook crashes in Afghanistan amongst the NATO nations operating the type,very illuminating.The helo appears to be very vulnerable to both RPG and small arms fire,with many that have crashed on landing,turning turtle,etc.Lossess have also been heavy due to the number of troops that itcan carry.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 01 Sep 2011 22:15

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/09/mm ... chief.html

'MMRCA, Inshallah By Year End': IAF Chief

well....now, apparently India needs the Will of Allah to buy military supplies.....how exactly are appointments done for IAF top posts??? do we have a crypto-Islamist as chief of the Air Force???

jai · Post by **jai** » 02 Sep 2011 02:08

devesh wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/09/mm ... chief.html

'MMRCA, Inshallah By Year End': IAF Chief

well....now, apparently India needs the Will of Allah to buy military supplies.....how exactly are appointments done for IAF top posts??? do we have a crypto-Islamist as chief of the Air Force???

Read the article again.

The chief is clearly frustrated at the snail pace this thing is moving at..given that iaf completed all their work in record time and gave their inputs a year back. Maybe it's his way of saying that despite his push the babus are stalling again. From this perspective it's an alarming statement specially if you read this in light of the last chief and cds' complaint to the pm on non cooperation of the babus in vital national security matters, the recent news of a stall in there procurement of light howitzers and the govt's standoff with Gen VKS on his retirement. Clearly the chiefs are getting frustrated and this can not be good for the country or the govt... I also think the patience of thevservice chiefs is being tested now and something may give for all we know before long.

Please also read the previous chiefs comments where he was pushing the govt to declare the winner before he retired....well the new chief is in and no word still from the babus. It's his way of telling the people of India and the pm that mod and fin min babus are screwing up again despite all the push from air force all these years.

Aka should stop all pretense of being clean, no one in this govt is clean. Aka may turn out to be the worst def minister if on his watch all major defense projects are stalling while only the fms ones with us are getting through.

I would also like to see mod babus response to col shukla's latest allegations on the offset scam....I wonder why the opposition is not questioning anything connected to govt goof ups on defense matters

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 02 Sep 2011 03:37

regardless, I have a serious problem with Air Chief's comments. imagine a similar situation with Inshallah replaced by Rama or Krishna. can u imagine the furor then?

saip · Post by **saip** » 02 Sep 2011 03:47

ACM Browne might have said in a lighter vein but should he said that is the question. Considering that he is probably a non-muslim should he have invoked Allah's name? It will only take a single mad mullah to declare him Wajb-ul-qatl for a kafir taking Allah's name in vain and then everything will hit the fan.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Sep 2011 07:12

^^^ People say Praise the Lord, Ram Ram, Inshallah all the time. It has become second nature to some. But that in no way changes the fact...we need new fighters NOW. Please stick to the discussion at hand.

manum · Post by **manum** » 02 Sep 2011 07:18

devesh wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/09/mm ... chief.html

'MMRCA, Inshallah By Year End': IAF Chief

well....now, apparently India needs the Will of Allah to buy military supplies.....how exactly are appointments done for IAF top posts??? do we have a crypto-Islamist as chief of the Air Force???

I am surprised at your analysis...I also noticed Allah word, but I felt happy that he used it...it shows uncluttered progressive charecter of his....

In India I don't think it matters which version of god one is refering to...and as per objection of mentioning heavenly intervention in perfectly human controlled activity...guess it means he is hopeful, though many things are not in his control...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2011 09:18

what ? only BRFites can use inshallah ?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Sep 2011 09:40

May be it was Ramzan when he made this comment

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 02 Sep 2011 10:12

I was in a PSU setup outside India where this word "Inshallah" was used to mean that ...things are now beyond my control. :-(

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2011 12:08

isubodh wrote:I was in a PSU setup outside India where this word "Inshallah" was used to mean that ...things are now beyond my control. :-(

methinks Browne Sahib was being sarcastic!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Sep 2011 13:41

devesh wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/09/mm ... chief.html

'MMRCA, Inshallah By Year End': IAF Chief

well....now, apparently India needs the Will of Allah to buy military supplies.....how exactly are appointments done for IAF top posts??? do we have a crypto-Islamist as chief of the Air Force???

Dude, that is as idiotic a statement, as can be. It shows nothing but your state of mind -which seems to need real help.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2011 13:52

ACM Browne appears to have delivered a message for which he cannot be taken to task.After all,everything is in divine hands! Here however,the "divinity" remains a moot point.Is it because the "divinity" is a "mother-goddess" who is away in a foreign land has to command her dhoti-clad "devotees", who will then put their dhobi marks onto the long-standing requiremnt of ACM Browne and the IAF,so that the country might be defended in the air from the vultures and dragons that are gathering in great numbers?

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 02 Sep 2011 14:03

Rahul M wrote:what ? only BRFites can use inshallah ?

diyar adminulla, i sujpect that IAF chief is browjing our forum and he ij usjing our djinn BRF language.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Sep 2011 14:20

in a sikular country has anyone noticed lots of Govt facilities like PSU offices, post offices have small hindu temples or shrines both inside and outside the building?

are all these people crypto-fascist saffron 'league of shadows' types lurking in the wood waiting for the clarion call?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Sep 2011 14:23

What is all the fuss? So what if he used insah alla?!!!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 02 Sep 2011 20:03

indranilroy wrote:What is all the fuss? So what if he used insah alla?!!!

OT.... but could'nt resist.
that makes him a closet jihadi, who will in all probability order IAF planes to fly into buildings with beepuls in it.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 02 Sep 2011 21:19

Where are we going with the discussion in this thread...?
La-hol-bila-qwat

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 02 Sep 2011 21:50

Is this deal getting delayed because of corrupt ministers and officials?

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 02 Sep 2011 22:04

This deal needs to be completed as soon as possible. Now, with the current corruption scandals, are some congress leaders involved with some foreign secret agencies to deliberately delay the leads.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 02 Sep 2011 22:08

does IAF chief also has to be politically correct to appease the muslims just like political parties?

Will · Post by **Will** » 02 Sep 2011 22:28

Oh gr8!! Now we have biggots crawling out of the woodwork in here.

Moderators please delete these posts !!!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Sep 2011 00:46

rohitvats wrote:
Dude, that is as idiotic a statement, as can be. It shows nothing but your state of mind -which seems to need real help.

it is amazing the level of leniency we give to statements when they come from uniformed wallahs.....as for my state of mind, I am perfectly happy with it. the Chief of the Air Force of India is publicly giving statements about how India needs the "will of Allah" to meet her needs. I find such a statement coming from a man of such high rank, nothing but disgusting. I expect a man of his rank to keep away from talking about any God, whether it be Rama or Krishna or whatever....

Singha ji,
are you seriously comparing some post office with the Chief of the Air Force? and as for the post office with temples, it still isn't the same argument. I am specifically questioning the wisdom of the words that are spewing from the Air Chief's mouth.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Sep 2011 00:56

topics we debate are certainly vast in range. IAF Big Boss can shout "we shall build up this Air Force with rock and roll" and I shall do air guitar while holding up a lighter. All without getting up from my armchair. I mean he is The Man. And that is that.

A figure of speech need not be seen beyond its limits.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 03 Sep 2011 01:13

"Insha'Allah" is just a figure of speech, that means "i am hopeful", or "if all goes well"; it is not an expression of religious sentiment or belief. I have heard it being used in the context of commercial dialogue by asians, westerners, etc who are not muslim or religious or even arabic speakers. So, devesh needs to chill (and just to be clear, I am not asking you to go sit in a refrigerator). Samajh aaya ki nahin?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Sep 2011 01:27

devesh wrote: <SNIP>

it is amazing the level of leniency we give to statements when they come from uniformed wallahs.....as for my state of mind, I am perfectly happy with it. the Chief of the Air Force of India is publicly giving statements about how India needs the "will of Allah" to meet her needs. I find such a statement coming from a man of such high rank, nothing but disgusting. I expect a man of his rank to keep away from talking about any God, whether it be Rama or Krishna or whatever....<SNIP>

You know what, what is amazing is the level of tolerance to nonsense being posted by people like you and allowing posts like yours to waste space on the forum.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Sep 2011 02:25

^^^
if you have something more than personal attacks you can post them...

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Sep 2011 02:31

^^
You nitpicked a figure of speech, twisted its meaning and made some extremely tasteless remarks. Believe me you, the level of tolerance being shown towards your posts is astounding. One would have thought that forum warnings would be in order by now. So, I suggest that you don't test your luck any further and let it go.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Sep 2011 02:40

Devesh garu,

Pls let it go. Armed forces are our Bhishma (protector of throne, not the king), they are bound by their Dharma.

On the forum image - One can wake up someone who is sleeping, not someone who is acting. Our armed forces are not asleep. That is why they say what they say.

What they need are lots of MMRCAs, it doesn't matter who (Allah/Jesus/Nanak/Saibaba/Marx) gives them.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Sep 2011 02:41

Let's chill out on the 'Inshallah' remark. It's become a standard comedy crutch—just Google 'Inshallah jokes'.

The first 'Inshallah' joke I heard was in 1975 about the Saudia pilot saying to passengers: ""... Inshallah!, we are about to land...."

Even Bill Maher (hardly a religious type) routinely uses this invocation.

The ACM is only guilty of not being aware of how politically correct we've become. By expending bandwidth on this we have become as shrill as NDTV

That said, it's 'bigots' not 'biggots' ^^^

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Sep 2011 04:26

Cosmo_R wrote:The first 'Inshallah' joke I heard was in 1975 about the Saudia pilot saying to passengers: ""... Inshallah!, we are about to land...."

Video, the reco-NG pod in action
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/09/ ... ction.html

From Rafale Blogspot -- > Note the gun muzzle under the left wing root which is usually masked by a cap desintegrated by the first round.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1ZgH5WHTPmU/T ... 3c12_o.jpg

Katrina keeps her assets hidden so discreetly.... but Inshallah it shall be revealed to the enemy

Here is a picture of the cap still visible. Shiv Aroor of Livefist is sitting in the back.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VkDE5qtqMuo/T ... 956590.jpg

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Sep 2011 16:44

inshallah there will be no more discussion on the chief's comments and we would not be forced to ban anyone.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 04 Sep 2011 00:01

Here is Dassault commercial presentation (Power Point and written) for the Brazilian campaign :

http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl ... io-Rafale-

nice picture :

http://www.defesanet.com.br/site/upload ... 9/3120.jpg