Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

[eklavya]

As labels are being handed out generously, Blue Label for me please ..

http://www.johnniewalker.com/global/bluelabel/

[Prem]

Serious question to RajeshA-ji and others who are discussing the topics on this page -- in terms of thought experiment -- do the bootlickers realize they are bootlickers? And do it despite? Or is it ingrained and when shown a mirror (we have examples) -- they still dont realize that they are bootlickers? Or that causes deep cognitivie dissonance?

Sanku, This is very seerious question and the answer is very clear. Bulleh Shah in his famous poem once asked how many virgins and non virgins live in Lahore . Bootlickers know and also know not.some are the victims of their nature and some do with compulsion and hope to receive reward.

[RajeshA]

so i am asking you to rise above the noise level...

Lalmohan ji,

perhaps you have misunderstood my intention with regard to these labels. They are not for the purpose of humiliating others.

Each can look at these definitions and see for themselves whether they apply to them or not, and if they do, they can ask themselves whether they feel comfortable or not. If they do not feel comfortable, they can further ask themselves what do they find disconcerting - is it the fact that the definition applies to them, or does the fault lie in the definition itself.

Such definitions are very useful for self-analysis.

I would in fact urge Macaulayites, Nehruvites, Marxists, Islamists and Yuppies to define "Hindu Fundamentalists". They have only offered labels but no definitions. At least I am giving them something more than just hollow undefined labels.

[lakshmikanth]

Serious question to RajeshA-ji and others who are discussing the topics on this page -- in terms of thought experiment -- do the bootlickers realize they are bootlickers? And do it despite? Or is it ingrained and when shown a mirror (we have examples) -- they still dont realize that they are bootlickers? Or that causes deep cognitivie dissonance?

Sanku, This is very seerious question and the answer is very clear. Bulleh Shah in his famous poem once asked how many virgins and non virgins live in Lahore . Bootlickers know and also know not.some are the victims of their nature and some do with compulsion and hope to receive reward.

The human brain is indeed a very weird thing, in that it is a biological computer capable of self-reflection. It is also a statistical network, it collects records and processes statistics from the information that it gathers from its environment. Any statistical machine is prone to being biased, so is the human mind. There is very little it can do to correct itself, but it CAN correct itself.

However it trusts itself more than anything else when faced with contradictory evidence of a statistical bias and sticks on (quite desperately) to its beliefs. It can invent weird theories to justify the evidence that essentially negates/exposes its bias. This is in-fact healthy, for if there was no bias, contradictory evidence to a (non biased) belief would then result in seeking out new and valid explanation on why the belief is true (Very commonly happens in astronomy) or false, but false only after thoroughly rejecting every theory that can explain the belief. This is normal human exploration and the root of scientific progress.

When it comes to a biased belief, this human trait impedes human progress. Because people stick on their biases with increasing vigor when faced with contradicting evidence. So all the Brits, white man , elite have to do is implant this biases using their infrastructure (writers, media, financiers etc). This bias would then take its own life and will be propagated across generations as seen in the Macaulayputra phenomenon in India. I was a Macaulayputra myself and I thankfully was open enough to correct my biases.

Check out this debunking handbook that ramana sir posted
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1353166

This outlines what is the behavior when you "show the mirror" to a biased mind. It also outlines the remedy.

[Lalmohan]

so all this analysis comes back to the old saying on this and other threads - until indians start vocalising a new narrative of our civilisation and history, the old (unacceptable) versions will remain

[lakshmikanth]

so all this analysis comes back to the old saying on this and other threads - until indians start vocalising a new narrative of our civilisation and history, the old (unacceptable) versions will remain

We have to build a myth debunking infrastructure and also make every effort to destroy their propaganda infrastructure (or bias implanting infrastructure).

[Lalmohan]

no sir, you just need to tell a different story, not counter the existing one
when your story is louder, no one will listen to the old story

[lakshmikanth]

no sir, you just need to tell a different story, not counter the existing one
when your story is louder, no one will listen to the old story

Lalmohanji,

I agree with you onlee, here is a copy paste from that myth debunking handbook

Debunking myths is problematic. Unless great care is taken, any effort to debunk
misinformation can inadvertently reinforce the very myths one seeks to correct. To
avoid these “backfire effects”, an effective debunking requires three major elements.
First, the refutation must focus on core facts rather than the myth to avoid the
misinformation becoming more familiar. Second, any mention of a myth should be
preceded by explicit warnings to notify the reader that the upcoming information is
false. Finally, the refutation should include an alternative explanation that accounts
for important qualities in the original misinformation.

We need to build an infrastructure that does this. We need an army to win this war and not a few heroes.

EDIT: That infrastructure will in-itself be a threat to the existing (myth propagating) infrastructure, and do you think they are going to keep quiet? Hence we need to make sure that we make every effort in the background to destroy them. For ex: NaMo ending up owning undieTV would be a good start. That is what I meant.

[chetak]

Have the brits finally noticed the 10-12 billions that mms has "given" to the IMF to prop up the failing economies of europe including that of the UK?

Britain to slash its 280 million pound India aid by half: report

[g.sarkar]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... douts.html
Same news, but the comments are interesting read.
Gautam

[Haresh]

British have invaded nine out of ten countries - so look out Luxembourg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653 ... bourg.html

[g.sarkar]

[quote="johneeG"]
Following the Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th century and the condemnation from around the world over the United Kingdom's conduct, Conan Doyle wrote a short pamphlet titled The War in South Africa: Its Cause and Conduct, which justified the UK's role in the Boer War and was widely translated. Doyle had served as a volunteer doctor in the Langman Field Hospital at Bloemfontein between March and June 1900.[25]
"Conan Doyle believed it was this pamphlet that resulted in his being knighted in 1902 and appointed Deputy-Lieutenant of Surrey.Also in 1900 he wrote the longer book, The Great Boer War.
So, given this background, the question definitely rises whether non-brits(particularly those at the receiving end of imperialism and colonialism) should use these brit honorific titles?!
If the victims of imperialism and colonialism protest against glorification of people who celebrated imperialism and colonialism, what is wrong?!"
Sirji,
Boer War is not a good example to define any one in the Victorian era with regard to racism/imperialism etc. Both Kipling and Gandhiji supported the British. This shows how wide the spectrum of the support was. Each supported the British for their own reasons. In hind sight, the British were the lesser of the two evils.
Gautam

[Haresh]

NHS heart surgeons could be trained in India to gain enough experience

NHS heart surgeons will soon have to be trained in India because European Union rules on working hours are stopping young doctors getting the operating theatre experience they need, according to one of India's leading cardiac specialists.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... ience.html

[member_23677]

NHS heart surgeons could be trained in India to gain enough experience

NHS heart surgeons will soon have to be trained in India because European Union rules on working hours are stopping young doctors getting the operating theatre experience they need, according to one of India's leading cardiac specialists.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... ience.html

Let's see if BBC makes a documentary on this, that is, if they have enough brain cells to realize that there is life out of dharavi

[suryag]

next there will be a report that surgeons trained in India have brought in NDM-5

[Aditya_V]

Russian Defence Minister fired in a corruption scandal, see the Flag BBC chooses to include in the picture, this is what one calls psy-ops

Russian Defence Minister Anatoly Serdyukov fired by Putin

These Briturds seriously hate us? wonder why?

[brihaspati]

Following the Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th century and the condemnation from around the world over the United Kingdom's conduct, Conan Doyle wrote a short pamphlet titled The War in South Africa: Its Cause and Conduct, which justified the UK's role in the Boer War and was widely translated. Doyle had served as a volunteer doctor in the Langman Field Hospital at Bloemfontein between March and June 1900.[25]
"Conan Doyle believed it was this pamphlet that resulted in his being knighted in 1902 and appointed Deputy-Lieutenant of Surrey.Also in 1900 he wrote the longer book, The Great Boer War.
So, given this background, the question definitely rises whether non-brits(particularly those at the receiving end of imperialism and colonialism) should use these brit honorific titles?!
If the victims of imperialism and colonialism protest against glorification of people who celebrated imperialism and colonialism, what is wrong?!"

Sirji,
Boer War is not a good example to define any one in the Victorian era with regard to racism/imperialism etc. Both Kipling and Gandhiji supported the British. This shows how wide the spectrum of the support was. Each supported the British for their own reasons. In hind sight, the British were the lesser of the two evils.
Gautam

Can you please make it a bit clearer : you think in hindsight the Brits were better than the Boers?

The Brits introduced and sharpened each and every unsavoury bit of legislative repression, apartheid and genocide that later on came to characterize SA. One simply has to look at how the "crown" introduced, modified, and exacerbated Dutch and pre-crown-rule SA from the so-called treaties of "capitulation" down to 1948.

The two key figures in generic racial hatred and repression - as top dogs - were Jan Smuts and the Protestant cleric Malan. Smuts is particualry identifiable with hatred for India and Indians. He was repeatedly looking to disenfranchise, restrict, segregate and expel Indians. Who was it that supported, recognized and pushed Smuts into power?

From wiki:

Jan Christiaan Smuts, OM, CH, ED, KC, FRS,[1] PC (24 May 1870 – 11 September 1950) was a prominent South African and British Commonwealth statesman, military leader and philosopher. In addition to holding various cabinet posts, he served as Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa from 1919 until 1924 and from 1939 until 1948. He served in the First World War and as a British field marshal[2] in the Second World War.

He led commandos in the Second Boer War for the Transvaal. During the First World War, he led the armies of South Africa against Germany, capturing German South-West Africa and commanding the British Army in East Africa. From 1917 to 1919, he was also one of five members of the British War Cabinet, helping to create the Royal Air Force. He became a field marshal in the British Army in 1941, and served in the Imperial War Cabinet under Winston Churchill. He was the only person to sign the peace treaties ending both the First and Second World Wars.

One of his greatest international accomplishments was the establishment of the League of Nations, the exact design and implementation of which relied upon Smuts.[3] He later urged the formation of a new international organisation for peace: the UN. Smuts wrote the preamble to the United Nations Charter, and was the only person to sign the charters of both the League of Nations and the UN. He sought to redefine the relationship between the United Kingdom and her colonies, helping to establish the British Commonwealth, as it was known at the time. This proved to be a two-way street; in 1946 the General Assembly requested the Smuts government to take measures to bring the treatment of Indians in South Africa into line with the provisions of the United Nations Charter.[4]

[/quote]

He remained close to the British ruling regime to his death in 1950. One has to simply look at his career in the interwar years, and his persistent anti-India attitudes, to see why Churchill and the British establishment liked him so much.

[Lilo]

Welsh abuse scandal: A nightmare without end
.......

Shortly afterwards, a wide-ranging police inquiry began. Over two years, some 2,500 people were interviewed, with allegations against 365 people. The Crown Prosecution Services recommended action against eight, and six were convicted. There, the affair might have ended. There was no widespread clamour for inquires – and no internet through which allegations and names could find their way into the public domain.

It is hard to appreciate today, as the Home Secretary, Theresa May, announces an investigation into claims that a senior Conservative figure was involved in abuse at North Wales care homes in the 1970s and 1980s, but in those days attitudes to child abuse and to children in care were different. After all, the Paedophile Information Exchange, which campaigned for acceptance and understanding of paedophilia, had disbanded only seven years earlier.

And the interests and welfare of children in care were not issues that attracted great public attention In these closed worlds, too many children were easy prey to abusers.

Nonetheless, with the police inquiry complete, Clwyd Council decided to review its residential child care provisions, and commissioned John Jillings, a former director of social services in Derbyshire, to chair a tribunal,

It took nearly a year to complete its inquiry and much was expected. But, astonishingly, the council decided not to publish the 300-page report and it was regarded as so sensitive that copies were numbered and, at one point, recalled.

It was the non-publication of Jillings that triggered the interest of The Independent and The Independent on Sunday, and abuse at children's homes in North Wales rapidly climbed the news agenda.

Malcolm King, then chairman of Clwyd County Council, whose tenacity had helped to put the spotlight on abuse, did not hold back. "The evidence emerging is that children's homes were a gulag archipelago stretching across Britain – wonderful places for paedophiles but, for the children who suffered, places of unending nightmares," he told The Independent on Sunday.

It emerged that there were other unpublished reports, one of which showed that warnings about the possibility of a paedophile ring operating around children's homes in North Wales and the North-west had been given four years previously. There were 12 internal reports on alleged abuse in all. Only six made it to the social services committee and just two were reported in any detail. As a result, it was almost impossible to have an overview of what was happening in children's homes.

...............

At this stage it seemed that more than 100, possibly more than 200 children might have been sexually abused in the homes. At least 12, perhaps 16, were dead, some by suicide. Prominent public figures were persistently rumoured to be among the abusers: members of a paedophile ring to whom the children were supplied as sexual playthings.

The Jillings report had been expected to provide an overview and answer some of these questions, but it had been suppressed. The Independent and The Independent on Sunday gained access to some of the recommendations, and eventually were given unrestricted access to one of the numbered copies.

Its contents were explosive: "It is the opinion of the panel that extensive and widespread abuse has occurred within Clwyd residential establishments for children and young people. Our findings show that time and again, the response to indications that children may have been abused has been too little and too late." It condemned professionals: "There has been a conflict of interest between safeguarding professional positions versus the safety of children and young people. The interests of children have almost invariably been sacrificed.

"It is clear that in a significant number of cases the lives of young people who have been through the care system in Clwyd have been severely disrupted and disturbed. "
............

Allegations of abuse were on a colossal scale. More than 700 complaints, relating to approximately 40 homes, were made, including 138 from former residents of Bryn Estyn. Although the inquiry made a series of recommendations, some issues remained unresolved. Were there – are there? – other people who should be investigated? Was a ring at work? Were prominent public figures involved?

"One of the disturbing features of Bryn Estyn is the large number of employees who were later to be identified as serious abusers. There can be little doubt that most or all of the most serious sexual abusers knew each other," said Gerard Elias QC during the tribunal hearings.

Clwyd Council was concerned enough to raise questions about a paedophile ring with the Chief Constable, and one of the internal reports, which was obtained by The Independent at the time, raised the issue, too: "There remain worrying current instances of conviction and prosecution for sexual offences of persons who are known to have worked together in child care establishments both in the county [Clwyd] and in other parts of the North-west," it said. "These suggest that abuse could have been happening unabated for many years and, that there could be operating a league or ring of paedophiles."

And were prominent public figures involved? Allegations and rumours of abuse of children in care in North Wales have been rife for many years, and leading politicians are consistently alleged to be involved. Some have been named on the internet – repeatedly so, in recent days.

The Waterhouse inquiry effectively barred the naming of anyone accused of abuse who had not been convicted, arguing that there was a "substantial risk that the course of justice... would be seriously impeded and prejudiced if there were to be general publication of the identity of the abusers and persons against whom allegations of abuse are made."

In fact, one or two politicians' names were mentioned at the tribunal, but they did not appear in the report, and, it being the pre-internet age, they remained anonymous. The report concluded: "No evidence has been presented to establish that there was a wide-ranging conspiracy involving prominent persons and others with the objective of sexual activity with children in care."

But for two or three decades, survivors of abuse have been adamant about who they thought was involved, and now some of those allegations have been resurfacing.

Should we take them seriously? As a journalist who was deeply involved in the story for some time, I saw the allegations as being sincerely held, and they have persisted. But to publish them would have needed solid evidence. Sadly, the very nature of sexual abuse of this kind means that such solid evidence was and is very hard to come by.

Yet, despite two tribunals, 10 or so court cases, more than a dozen reports, and several internal inquires, there remain unanswered questions about exactly what happened in and around those children's home in North Wales over two decades.

Jillings, too, had encountered talk of the involvement of public figures. His report said he was unable to tackle some issues because of the lack of a mandate, adding: "This includes the suggestion that public figures may have been involved in the abuse of young people in Clwyd."

None of these allegations has diminished over time. If there is a new inquiry, it needs to be structured in such a way that it can have a reasonable chance of finding conclusive answers for the survivors of child abuse that wrecked so many lives.

Q&A: Abuse in Welsh care homes

Q When did the abuse occur?

A Between 1974 and 1990. About 100 children, and possibly many more, were sexually abused in children's homes in Clwyd.

Q Shouldn't there have been an inquiry at the time?

A There were several: 12 internal council reports; an inquiry for the Welsh Office, which concluded that a full judicial inquiry would not be in the public interest; the 300-page Jillings report, prepared for Clwyd council in 1996 but never published; and a £20m judicial inquiry under Sir Ronald Waterhouse QC, which reported in 2000.

Q What were the Waterhouse inquiry's conclusions?

A The inquiry's report, Lost In Care, concluded that widespread sexual abuse had taken place. However, it reached no conclusions about persistent allegations that prominent public figures had been among the abusers.

Q Why not?

A The difficulty of substantiating claims against named individuals was seen as making it harder for victims to get a hearing for their claims of abuse, so the Waterhouse inquiry granted anonymity to all such named alleged perpetrators.

Q Did the guilty go unpunished?

A We have no way of knowing. Now, as then, claims about "prominent perpetrators" mean little without corroborating evidence.

Looks like the Islamist penchant for child buggery is shared by the Bitturd elites , no wonder they are often caught sleeping in the same bed, in conflicts across the world.

Also, i guess children are not "human" according to Brits, else the glorious British Parliament would have already passed a resolution "condemning the Human rights abuse", as they are prone to do with regard to violence (fanned by them) in the "bloody" turdworld countries

The disgust apart, my question is, why are the Brit males so prone to Paedo ?
they keep popping up in places like Phuket,Dubai,India,Bangladesh etc mongering for children.

[Agnimitra]

The disgust apart, my question is, why are the Brit males so prone to Paedo ?
they keep popping up in places like Phuket,Dubai,India,Bangladesh etc mongering for children.

Its been systemic in their boarding schools for the last couple centuries, as well as on ships when Britain ruled the waves. It was practically a rite of passage and part of more severe cases of hazing/ragging in boarding schools, and it was also part of navy life - a country that once used pirates for strategic purposes just like Pakis today use terrorists also had a lot of dirt in its regular forces. TSP is merely trying to follow in the footsteps of the 'mother country'.

When I was at school ...

Rum, sodomy, and the lash: Did the Royal Navy supply ships with "peg boys" for sex?

[Lilo]

Its been systemic in their boarding schools for the last couple centuries, as well as on ships when Britain ruled the waves. It was practically a rite of passage and part of more severe cases of hazing/ragging in boarding schools, and it was also part of navy life ....

When I was at school ...

Rum, sodomy, and the lash: Did the Royal Navy supply ships with "peg boys" for sex?

Guess, Tom Brown's Schooldays, which i had to read once, skipped the real stuff .
So, here's my hat tup (where's the hat ?) to another celebrated UQ littarattateur - Thomas Hughes for his glorious account of British boarding school life - which was so lovingly replicated in our own Macaulite Doons and Xaviers.

[vishvak]

There was also another scandal involving a former commentator of BBC, post mortem surprisingly. The case was buried because connections all over including political, religious, elite, charity funders, and so on.

It is called Savile probe or something. Some arrests have been made of course post mortem.

[Lalmohan]

the saville case is absolutely shocking. he was one of the most popular entertaintment figures on radio and tv and had a long running show that provided once in a lifetime opportunities for disadvantaged children to experience something amazing and close to their hearts, e.g. ride on a rollercoaster, visit to a particular place, etc.

at the same time, saville and others close to him, were clearly abusing underage girls and sometimes boys - persistently for many years. because he was a big name, ordinary people were scared of him and their reports did not get taken seriously. clearly people in authority and especially those at the bbc were covering up for him because of his popularity

saville knew it and he took full advantage of it. the police enquiry is considering around 300 cases for him directly, and around another 100 by those around him, including other celebrity figures.

most of the cases involve teenage girls under 16, which unfortunately in the 1960's and 70's was considered sort of acceptable by many as long as it wasn't too obvious. society is less accepting of these things now. its only after his death that the wall of silence has broken.

by no means is this peculiar to the UK. recent high profile cases have happened in the US and several pan-european paedophile gangs have been discovered over the past few years.

[Vayutuvan]

open fly - torn shirt

[Vayutuvan]

A quick observation re. Conandoyle. All his writings are of not uniformly of high quality - only short stories I think are superior are Red headed league, Blue Carbuncle and Three orange pips. His books are uniformly boring without too many surprises. GK Chesterton's innocence of Father Brown is far superior to any thing Conandoyle has written.

[brihaspati]

What I found to be a common thread in European use of paedophilia, use of young boys or girls for sexual purposes - to be a common thread from the rise of Grecian influence, in the late bronze age. Whether they carried it from a common source culture in common with Persians, or imbibed that from Persian interaction - is something not studied that well. The Romans seem to have taken it on from admiration of the Greeks.

All cultures/elite who admired or copied the romans - like the brits, Frankish invaders of France who became later French aristos, seem to have become fond of the practice.

It was perhaps a deliberate tactic of pushing male bonding in war situations, and promote excessive violence. Most ancient cultures that appear to have indulged in the practice, seems to have given rise to totalitarianism, monotheism, excessive brutalization on women with explicit sexual connotations, and an obsession with dominance-submission plus enjoyment of infliction of pain. Greeks+Romans+Persians+the imperialist versions of the ME sourced religions.

[brihaspati]

People interested in the topic with UK background, should look up 18th and 19th century source material on this. Will not ref this on open forum. The simplest search can start with "English vice". You will immediately see a very peculiar connection to young boys, whips, boarding schools/church acolytes, and ....

[Ramu]

India will shed few tears over the end of UK aid

For India, fairer trade agreements and an end to patronising soft power are more important than dribbles of aid from Britain

[lakshmikanth]

India will shed few tears over the end of UK aid

For India, fairer trade agreements and an end to patronising soft power are more important than dribbles of aid from Britain

The article is tripe on why Aid should go to India. The comments are interesting. Typical briturd sense of entitlement and white man's burden displayed in the comments. White man == good/gleat/powelful/helping the browntroden, created democracy and what not. Brown man == yeevil, corrupt, one who cannot help themselves. The turds are 400% predictable, they should find something new to moan about.

The turds do need a few tight slaps on their faces, but I dont know if India is upto doing the dirty work, someone must do it

[eklavya]

Its been systemic in their boarding schools for the last couple centuries, as well as on ships when Britain ruled the waves. It was practically a rite of passage and part of more severe cases of hazing/ragging in boarding schools, and it was also part of navy life ....

When I was at school ...

Rum, sodomy, and the lash: Did the Royal Navy supply ships with "peg boys" for sex?

Guess, Tom Brown's Schooldays, which i had to read once, skipped the real stuff .
So, here's my hat tup (where's the hat ?) to another celebrated UQ littarattateur - Thomas Hughes for his glorious account of British boarding school life - which was so lovingly replicated in our own Macaulite Doons and Xaviers.

I had more exposure to and active immersion in Indian culture (art, music, clothes, language, poetry, literature) in The Doon School than in the Kendriya Vidyalayas run by the Government of India or the convents run by the Catholic Church. There was practically no bullying in The Doon School (strongly & actively discouraged) and the ethos was deeply humane and fundamentally India.

[Sagar G]

I had more exposure to and active immersion in Indian culture (art, music, clothes, language, poetry, literature) in The Doon School than in the Kendriya Vidyalayas run by the Government of India or the convents run by the Catholic Church. There was practically no bullying in The Doon School (strongly & actively discouraged) and the ethos was deeply humane and fundamentally India.

If you have some grouse with the poster then take that with him or with the mods no need to show KVS in poor light especially when you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Ramu]

India will shed few tears over the end of UK aid


The article is tripe on why Aid should go to India. The comments are interesting. Typical briturd sense of entitlement and white man's burden displayed in the comments. White man == good/gleat/powelful/helping the browntroden, created democracy and what not. Brown man == yeevil, corrupt, one who cannot help themselves. The turds are 400% predictable, they should find something new to moan about.

The turds do need a few tight slaps on their faces, but I dont know if India is upto doing the dirty work, someone must do it

Its the other way round. This article is fairly reasonable and the comments were as usual shite. I thought it was written by one of you ghazis.

The crucial issue is the contribution made to India's development – and this is really not about aid but trade and investment, where the news is not good. Minute dribbles of UK aid cannot hope to work PR magic in India when the UK government is seen trying to bully the Indian government into accepting completely unjustifiable intellectual property clauses that will increase essential drug prices in a trade agreement, or pushing the interests of its own companies in getting extra protection and compensation in the face of laws that protect Indian citizens who are adversely affected by the investments, or indulging in protectionist practices against Indian exports.

[eklavya]

I had more exposure to and active immersion in Indian culture (art, music, clothes, language, poetry, literature) in The Doon School than in the Kendriya Vidyalayas run by the Government of India or the convents run by the Catholic Church. There was practically no bullying in The Doon School (strongly & actively discouraged) and the ethos was deeply humane and fundamentally India.

If you have some grouse with the poster then take that with him or with the mods no need to show KVS in poor light especially when you have no idea what you are talking about.

I am recounting my experiences at The Doon School and my Kendriya Vidyalaya, both of which I enjoyed greatly, my KV a little more than Doon. I did not criticise my KV; I only said that Doon gives a deep and broad exposure to Indian culture, quite frankly deeper and broader than I got at my KV. Of course its a matter of resources, but it doesn't change the facts. I am talking about my school days. Happy to acknowledge any evidence that you know what you are talking about.

[johneeG]

I had more exposure to and active immersion in Indian culture (art, music, clothes, language, poetry, literature) in The Doon School than in the Kendriya Vidyalayas run by the Government of India or the convents run by the Catholic Church. There was practically no bullying in The Doon School (strongly & actively discouraged) and the ethos was deeply humane and fundamentally India.

If you have some grouse with the poster then take that with him or with the mods no need to show KVS in poor light especially when you have no idea what you are talking about.

+1. If someone had better experience at one institution more than another, it is their own personal experience. The same experience may be seen by another in a different light. After all, beauty is in the eyes of beholder...

Anyway, there is no need to disparage KVs. Other schools can be glorified without putting down KVs.

[eklavya]

johneeG,

You misunderstand my posts. I take it for granted (or "common knowledge") that KVs are beacons of educational excellence and instruction in Indian culture. I am merely pointing out that Doon also gives a deep grounding in Indian culture; based on my experience, even deeper than my KV.

An interesting piece of trivia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doon_School
Although Jana Gana Mana is India's National anthem, it is traditionally referred to as "Song No. 1" at Doon since it was adopted as the School Song in 1935, fifteen years before it was adopted as India's national anthem.

[Sagar G]

I did not criticise my KV; I only said that Doon gives a deep and broad exposure to Indian culture, quite frankly deeper and broader than I got at my KV. Of course its a matter of resources, but it doesn't change the facts. I am talking about my school days. Happy to acknowledge any evidence that you know what you are talking about.

Having done my schooling in KV I don't know what "deeper and broader expose to Indian culture" you are talking about that KV doesn't provide. There is a huge plethora of cultural activities which happen in KV's all over India. To add to that in recent years it has only got better.

Oh and you should also read the entire wiki article, it doesn't concur with your smokescreen of There was practically no bullying in The Doon School (strongly & actively discouraged) in addition to providing other insights into Doon.

[brihaspati]

Bullying/humiliation non-existent in any school system that has some kind of connection to the Brit/organized religion sector? Agreed that it also exists in institutes of national importance, allegedly - with equal or more connections to the US and its high-school hazing culture. But the "prestigious English medium/Illustrious-kind-hearted-Brit founded schools"?

Here are some allegations :
http://intelvisions.blogspot.ie/2006/08 ... truth.html

Anonymous said...

Great post. But I disagree that these so called "Orientation Sessions" are only that. I have been through six years of Doon School, where people are from influential families with political strength enough to school anybody's ass. Ask people about what goes on in the Houses in Doon. We were given brutal hockey shots up our asses, but only when we let the house down in a game, we were subjected to grade-A military style physical torture, but only when we screwed up badly or broke the rules. But there was so much dignity and class in everything. If a junior was good natured, dedicated to contributing towards the House, no body would even bother him, instead probably help him make it to a big House team of some sort and appreciate all the efforts.

If a weakling was spotted, who would behave like Mr. Goody two shoes out of mummy's wings, the treatment for him would mostly be mockery, name calling and involvement intense sports, which is a fantastic way of putting a bit of confidence and "the right attitude" into such people. The most common thing would be "Take a pressup position and stay there", and that would be when the person would fail to do something properly, or with a wholehearted effort.

No one was out to humiliate a person. Everybody wanted everybody to be strong, and strength is not developed in a person by humiliating him. Unlike the IITs, nobody would ask a person to strip while others would be made to take photos, they would not be sexually assaulted because Homosexuality is hated and comdemned by the students themselves, they would not be thrown off roofs, hit with objects, victimized with sexual groping and forced actions etc. The emphasize is on developing strength and character, not humiliating them and deriving perverse pleasure.

If indeed your descriptions of Orientation are just that, then I support it wholeheartedly and testify that it is absolutely necessary. Hell with those who think otherwise. But I know for real that IIT KGP Orientation is not that. It's far far worse, and mostly perverted.

I guess it should be easy to spot how virtue is made out of necessity and the line of thinking that auto-justifies things one has gone through as "good", "character building", "absolutely necessary" - and "military grade torture" to boot.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... kumar-cbfc

Ex-student's film 'celebrating' Doon draws school's ire
Himanshi Dhawan, TNN Dec 25, 2010, 12.34am IST

NEW DELHI: Meant to be a celebration of life at Doon School on the occasion of its platinum jubilee, " Dazed in Doon", a film commissioned by the prestigious institution, has run into controversy with the school authorities seeking to move the censor board to prevent its screening.

The bone of contention: The school feels the film has done the opposite of what they had in mind. Instead of providing a nostalgic account of life at the boarding school, the film, it is felt, projects the school in poor light with references to drug use and ragging of juniors.

Here is a perspective from someone who apparently taught at Doon School, but who writes about his experiences at a "boys' school" :
http://ravilochansingh.com/2012/06/20/b ... es-escape/

However, I came across a 2009 newspaper article of Mr Dev Lahiri where he goes to detail the difference between bullying and ragging. Mr Lahiri has taught me at The Doon School and then later he was the Principal of the Heritage School in Kolkata where my children went for some early schooling. In 2009, he wrote the article while being the Headmaster of Welham Boys School in Dehradun. The article BULLYING: A SCHOOL MASTERS PERSPECTIVE from Times of India of June 2009 can be found on this link. I am quoting from that below…

When I took over a school in 1991, I found that it was commonplace for senior students to entertain themselves by hanging little boys out all night from the first floor windows, to break their arms with hockey-sticks and to proudly autograph the plaster cast, to brand their slaves with electric irons all in the name of tradition. And this school was being run by the HRD ministry! I had to wage a battle to combat this menace. There was a large section of the alumni which felt that I was diluting the character-building ethos of the school. So, what are the remedies, if any?

What is interesting is that the same Mr. Lahiri attributes the foundations of "bullying" specifically to the "caste system". There is of course no explanation as to why the great English schools manifested the same features without having the yeevil Hindu caste system in lordistan. And the elephant in the room is missed out completely - the remarkable coincidence that, bullying of the most brutal and sadistic forms seem to have all mostly occurred in schools founded by enlightened British patrons, or having a cultural link to the Anglo-US framework.

[D Roy]

As an aside,

desi politicians of various hues ( including of the abdul variety) put their children in schools such as Sanskriti and Sardar Patel.
In fact sickular netas in Delhi lead as far as SP is concerned.

For those who don't know.

the medium of instruction in SP till class 5 is Hindi. these two schools plus others( including Mother's) that our sickular netajis so love are all 'hindu-hindu' schools if you like. and their way of teaching is also very different from the missionary schools.

[eklavya]

brihaspati, the school Dev Lahiri is talking about in your quote is Lawrence School, Lovedale, where he went after Doon, as headmaster from 1991 to 2000. Here is the original article:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -boys-gang
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... oys-gang/2

To quote Dev Lahiri:

The biggest challenge for schools is to provide an atmosphere that is free of fear. They must create an ethos and an environment where the persecuted can speak out. A clear message must go out that certain forms of behaviour are just not acceptable. There will be times when harsh decisions will have to be taken. In our country there will inevitably be pressures political, bureaucratic and others but an institution has to stand firm.

No institution can afford to let its guard down in the mistaken belief that it has permanently rooted out the evil, because this pernicious practice has a way of creeping back. Staff must be trained to look out for the first tell-tale signs dropping grades of a hitherto good student, an apathetic attitude, sullenness that indicate a brewing problem.

Bullying is a like a weed; it grows fast, its hard to get rid of, and constant attention is required to keep it at bay. At The Doon School, the potential issue is openly acknowledged and the school authorities work actively to discourage/eradicate the problem. In my years at Doon, it wasn't a big issue, maybe I wasn't perceptive, maybe I was lucky, it may be the case that in those years the problem was at bay.

Vikram Seth's 1992 Founders Day speech shone a bright and unforgiving light on the issue, and he did a great service to everyone concerned. But the issue is in the open and the school actively deals with it:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ptyagi/Doon%2 ... 20Seth.htm

10 years later, this article also provides an interesting perspective on inter alia the bullying issue:

http://harpritsan.com/BajpaiFinancialTimes.html

But Doon appears to have a harder time shielding its charges from the curse of all boarding schools - bullying. Bajpai is reluctant to discuss recent instances of bullying, having already established a reputation for liberal issuance of "yellow cards" - a sanction for bad behaviour. He has even suspended a couple of boys for a particularly unpleasant type of bullying known as "muffing", which can delicately be described as auto-eroticism. Eradicating such practices is his top priority. "There are certain things that are intolerable and bullying is one of them," he says.

Doon, like its counterparts, half of which appear to have headmasters who used to teach at Doon, has a long history of bullying. Ten years ago Vikram Seth reluctantly accepted an invitation to speak at the school's annual Founder's Day. The more militant "old-boys" among the audience were not amused at what Seth had to say. At first, the author spoke wistfully of the tolling of the school bells and the familiar sight of flourishing jacaranda trees. But then he changed tone.

"The fact of the matter was that I was not happy at Doon School," Seth told his fellow Doscos. "I was bullied and teased by my classmates because of my interest in studies and lack of interest in games, because of my unwillingness to join gangs, because of my height... as for independence of mind, the ethos was one of conformity, of fear of public opinion, of hostility to anyone who was eccentric or odd. I very much hope that this has changed."

Such an account, although unusually well-phrased, would be true of almost any British public school. I tell Bajpai I deeply sympathise with what Seth had to say.

Isn't this all rather British and colonial and unhealthy, I ask. Bajpai smiles indulgently. This is a headmaster, after all, who recently told startled parents in his Founder's Day speech: "Our boys need to have more interaction with members of the opposite sex. They need to know more about human sexuality." (One senior boy interpreted it to me thus: "This was the headmaster's way of telling us to **** around.")

Sagar, The Doon School has a great tradition of Indian classical music, see for example:
http://www.doonschool.com/images/found2.jpg
http://www.doonschool.com/the-school-an ... c-school#l

The Indian cultural activity I particularly enjoyed was batik!
http://www.doonschool.com/the-school-an ... sic-school

And, here's a weekly written entirely/mainly by the students:
http://www.doonschool.com/publications/ ... y/archives
http://www.doonschool.com/images/weekly_pdf/2325.pdf

[Lilo]

^^Eklavya ji,

from what you mentioned above, i hope my original post quoted by you should be no more of a problem.

As you hold, if bullying by students with political background is not occurring anymore in Doon , then its well and good - lets leave it at that.

PS:Show of loyality to one's "Alma mater" is good , but there is nothing to gain from mounting a defense of one's own ("are they really one's own?") in a nationalist forum (that too in the britturd section) , btw iam a product of a couple of institutions mentioned (now a proud product of only one) - so such views can change with time and one's changing perspective - and dont matter much in overall scheme of things.

[JE Menon]

>>I found that it was commonplace for senior students to entertain themselves by hanging little boys out all night from the first floor windows

This was supposed to be at Lovedale? If so the man is lying. If something of the sort happened, it was by no means commonplace, and "all night"? Hell, they wouldn't even do it in my school which was far tougher or St. George's which was close by and equally a sh1thole...

Speaking as a McCaulayite ...

BTW, I was at a Gurukulam initially. Can't say that was better, or especially worse. Same sh1t, different way.