India Border Watch: Security and Operations

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2016 09:30

Good if they move troops. Let them spend money and let their stretched army stretch itself some more. This is a good time to attack a Chinese asset in Pakistan so more troops will need mobilization

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 27 Nov 2016 09:49

Already happening and will accelerate more over the next few days.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1298795/two-ki ... -in-gwadar

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 27 Nov 2016 15:05

Bishwa wrote:Guarav Sawant's news program (India Today) says Pakistan has moved 2 divisions from the Afghan border to the Indian border. This is quoting a Pakistan legislator.
Any other news on this?

Pakistan's army reserve North ( 1 corps, based in Mangla) which has 1 Armored and 2 Infantry divisions, had sent both infantry divisions to
fight insurgency in WANA. That operation has been winding down so I imagine these divisions would move back to their regular base in Kharian.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Nov 2016 16:11

in aftermath of the 2016 border war, I would be concerned by the troop movement only if they are going to deploy them on LOC and increase their static defences and bunkers. We want our forces to have the space and flexibility to operate in depth in PoK.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Nov 2016 16:27

Vishnu som;

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/buying-tim ... ng-1630173

New Delhi: Army officers have told NDTV that while there has been no ceasefire violation along the Line of Control in Kashmir some 48 hours after top Indian and Pak Army commanders spoke, it is too early to link it to de-escalation as there have been two more infiltration attempts since.

Officers say they cannot discount the possibility that Pakistan initiated a conversation between the Directors General of Military Operations (DGMOs) to secure a 'tactical pause' to replenish supplies and ammunition at its frontline posts.

Since Wednesday, there have been intense duels between Indian and Pakistani forces along the LoC, with both sides using heavy mortars, automatic weapons and occasionally anti-tank guided missiles to target each other's soldiers and fortifications. Even a two-day pause in firing, it is believed, would enable Pakistan to move urgently needed stores to its forces.

In his 10-12 minute conversation with Lieutenant General Ranbir Singh on Wednesday evening, Pakistan's Major General Sahir Shamsad Mirza had complained about an Indian attack on a civilian bus in the Neelum Valley in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. According to Islamabad, "one civilian bus plying on the route was deliberately targeted" resulting in nine deaths and nine serious injuries. The army said in a statement, that the Indian military officer expressed grief "but emphatically stated that retaliatory firing by Indian troops has only been carried out targeting locations from where Pakistan has initiated ceasefire violations."

NDTV has now learned that Pakistani forces had inexplicably cleared the movement of vehicles on this road, even though this had been suspended because of the situation along the LoC.

NDTV has also learnt that an alternate route exists in the Neelum Valley, which is outside the range of Indian gunners, but this route was not used by the bus.

At a time when the army launched fire assaults along the LoC after the beheading of the Indian soldier Prabhu Singh on Tuesday, there was no guarantee that the bus didn't have Pakistan Army regulars or wasn't being used to stock provisions in Pakistan posts.

There is also a sense among senior Indian Army officers, that Pakistani forces in the region may have been testing the waters - trying to push through a civilian bus which may well have been followed by other civilian buses or trucks carrying soldiers or supplies.

Details available to NDTV also indicate the exact sequence of events that resulted in the DGMO talks on Wednesday.

At 6:30 pm, two hours after firing stopped along the LoC, the hotline between the offices of the DGMO was activated by the Pakistan Army.

A Duty Officer on the Indian side, one among a group of officers who permanently man the phone, asked the Pakistanis what their DGMO wanted to speak about. Pakistan did not specify but requested an unscheduled and urgent conversation between Lt Gen Singh and Major General Mirza. The Indian Army agreed to a conversation which took place a few hours later. The Pakistan desk at the External Affairs Ministry was notified and worked with the Military Operations Directorate to shortlist the main points to be raised. National Security Advisor Ajit Doval was also informed about Pakistan's request and was briefed once the conversation ended.

khan · Post by **khan** » 27 Nov 2016 22:08

Aditya G wrote:Vishnu som;

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/buying-tim ... ng-1630173

Officers say they cannot discount the possibility that Pakistan initiated a conversation between the Directors General of Military Operations (DGMOs) to secure a 'tactical pause' to replenish supplies and ammunition at its frontline posts.

...

NDTV has now learned that Pakistani forces had inexplicably cleared the movement of vehicles on this road, even though this had been suspended because of the situation along the LoC.

NDTV has also learnt that an alternate route exists in the Neelum Valley, which is outside the range of Indian gunners, but this route was not used by the bus.

Even though the Pakistanis were probably playing their usual double games, I don't think there is a choice to do anything but play along. After all India doesn't want to be in the 24x7 shelling business - its expensive and unnecessary if the other side knows they will lose.

If the Pakistani's don't learn, they will just be kicked harder next time. There is a lot of room up the escalatory ladder where the Pakistani's cannot match Indian firepower (like air strikes) - and if they want to push the issue, I am sure PM Modi will be happy to meet them there.

This is why, I don't think the Pakistanis have much of a choice than accept the disproportionate response. If they try to respond disporportionately, things will escalate to a level where they can't compete.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 27 Nov 2016 22:31

Aditya G wrote:Vishnu som;

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/buying-tim ... ng-1630173

NDTV has now learned that Pakistani forces had inexplicably cleared the movement of vehicles on this road, even though this had been suspended because of the situation along the LoC.

NDTV has also learnt that an alternate route exists in the Neelum Valley, which is outside the range of Indian gunners, but this route was not used by the bus.

This is one of 2 stretches where their road skirts along the LOC. Denying usage of these roads is a good strategy during Hot LOC, it should be formalized to Sridhar ji's earlier suggestion for a no mans land on their side of LOC.

There are no such roads on our side (except a small part of the Muzaffarabad hwy), anyway the b*stards wont let us build anything on our side, so this is a unique weakness of theirs we are exploiting.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Nov 2016 23:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2iJoyEcII4

An explanation from the Paki perspective of where their weaknesses lie vs India on the border, and explains the compulsions that probably make them call our DGMO and run whining to the P5.

I still don't understand the logic on our side though, surely our military folks at least know the true character of the Paki and that this is an endless war till Pakistan ceases to exist. So why give them any concessions? If the tables were turned they would ruthlessly attack us. In fact if they were 10 times our size they would have attacked and wiped us out by now.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Nov 2016 00:26

Bart S wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2iJoyEcII4

An explanation from the Paki perspective of where their weaknesses lie vs India on the border, and explains the compulsions that probably make them call our DGMO and run whining to the P5.
.....

Is this why PA attacks on civvies in Jammu, as elsewhere they do not have any rich target?

They can try blocking NH-1A in Kargil, like 1998 - however this time around they have restricted to Jammu and North Kashmir only.

khan · Post by **khan** » 28 Nov 2016 00:58

Bart S wrote:
I still don't understand the logic on our side though, surely our military folks at least know the true character of the Paki and that this is an endless war till Pakistan ceases to exist. So why give them any concessions?

I wouldn't call them "concessions" - I would call it, being reasonable.

Their DGMO probably called and said the right things, now it's time to wait, watch and verify. If (rather when) they renege, then hit them harder.

After watching that video, where they essentially concede that they are in a shitty tactical position on the LOC, I am not too worried about them re-stocking. It will just mean more targets when the LOC heats up again.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 28 Nov 2016 01:18

khan wrote:
Bart S wrote:
I still don't understand the logic on our side though, surely our military folks at least know the true character of the Paki and that this is an endless war till Pakistan ceases to exist. So why give them any concessions?
I wouldn't call them "concessions" - I would call it, being reasonable.

Their DGMO probably called and said the right things, now it's time to wait, watch and verify. If (rather when) they renege, then hit them harder.

True, but have we learned nothing from the last 70 years of dealing with them? Even treaties with them are worth less than toilet paper, and their verbal promises are even more worthless. So why do we need to keep treating them as a normal country and keep on humoring them? It's almost like they are trolling us and we keep replying to them sincerely and seriously.

I would be much happier if the tables are turned, and we are the people instigating the violence when we feel like it, instead of trying to be all proper and ethical. They should be the people sleeping with one eye open and in terror of unprovoked attacks, not us.

khan · Post by **khan** » 28 Nov 2016 01:51

Bart S wrote:I would be much happier if the tables are turned, and we are the people instigating the violence when we feel like it, instead of trying to be all proper and ethical. They should be the people sleeping with one eye open and in terror of unprovoked attacks, not us.

I agree. But appearances matter.

The reason India is able to get away with this without anyone offering to "mediate" on Kashmir or people doing Nuclear bedwetting is because of the groundwork that Modi laid.

Modi made an honest attempt to engage with the Pakistani's (invited them to Inaguration, unannounced visit etc). But it didn't change their behavior.

So, now having established his bonafides as a fair-minded reasonable man, Modi is now free to do escalate things on a military front.

You and I might know and understand that Pakistan is not a reasonable state, but in order to be able to continue to escalate, it helps to give Pakistan the rope they need to demonstrate their continued unreasonableness to the world.

This is what the "pause" is about. If Pakistan behaves reasonably and ceases this behavior - then the LOC will not heat up. If they continue to be unreasonable, then next time, a DGMO call might not be enough. Next time, there might be a requirement for a higher body count (on their side), handing over some terrorists or losing some land.

This is all part of the process. Most of us who know and understand Pakistan are well aware that like a leopard, Pakistan will not change its spots - so the process, might seem unecrssarily long. But this process is necessary to justify further escalation and who knows - they might even seize the opportunity and change their behavior.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 28 Nov 2016 06:58

The Pakistani legislator snippet featured in Gaurav Sawants program seemed to indicate they are moving the 2 divisions from NWFA reluctantly and how it will effect the war on terrorism. But that could be PR.

I have been trying to find material on PA Orbat in the NWFA area. I found the following two links

http://spotidoc.com/doc/725553/pakistan-army-orbat
http://www.criticalthreats.org/pakistan ... r-province

Anyone has any comments on these? Both seem to indicate there is one division (37th) out of 1 Corps and one division (19th) out of 10 Corps deployed in NWFA area

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Nov 2016 10:31

The key is this time to act as if we are peaceful and hit them unexpectedly causing heavy causualties before they hit us.

We are not yet ready with our artillery and milatary mechanism to take them out, till then we slowly keep pushing the envelope.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Nov 2016 18:41

Sandeep unnithan in India Today;

....

On the evening of October 28, terrorists struck at the Indian army in the Machchal sector in Kupwara district. They beheaded a soldier, carrying his head across into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. The Indian army vowed an "appropriate response". Retaliation came but not like the September 29 surgical strike carried out by Para-SF operators on multiple terrorist camps across the LoC. The following day, the army moved seven FH-77B Bofors howitzers near the LoC. The guns were fired in pistol mode or in a flat trajectory at the targets nearly two kilometres across the border. Seventeen Pakistani bunkers were destroyed in the fire assault which the army claims killed 20 Pakistani soldiers.

....

So the army did not just fire 105mm guns as speculated. Bofors. Bold move.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Nov 2016 18:44

We should have purchased more 155mm guns for at least this kind of minor works.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Nov 2016 18:52

No worries 2 batteries of dhanush are already deployed in J&K

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Nov 2016 19:10

Aditya G wrote:No worries 2 batteries of dhanush are already deployed in J&K

A total of 6 guns - 3 from pre-production batch and 3 from production batch have been handed over to an arty regiment for trials.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 28 Nov 2016 19:14

^As per some reports the Soltam upgrades to the 130 mm M46 guns was limited due to the angle of firing not being very flexible for howitzer mode use once upgraded. Perhaps those can be used on the border as flat trajectory/pistol mode weapons?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 28 Nov 2016 19:27

Bart S wrote:^As per some reports the Soltam upgrades to the 130 mm M46 guns was limited due to the angle of firing not being very flexible for howitzer mode use once upgraded. Perhaps those can be used on the border as flat trajectory/pistol mode weapons?

M-46 guns always had the elevation problem and hence are restricted to the plains Punjab, Rajastan and Gujarat Borders. They can't be used int he mountains. Thats why they are called field guns and Howitzers.

Bishwa · Post by **Bishwa** » 28 Nov 2016 19:39

The 130 MMs were used in Siachen base camp. They played a role in preventing the 1984 assault on Bilafondla. A gun barrel burst in the intense firing to stop the advance.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Nov 2016 19:41

just a little observation..watching 2/3 clips of indians blasting paki posts and one from paki viewpoint..looks indians are firing from a elevated position to paki posts below them..the 1 clip from pakis firing at indian post showed the indian post at a higher elevation than the pakis.. looks this is what the paki general was alluding to in one of the vid clips. ie indians are tactically better positioned?

habal · Post by **habal** » 28 Nov 2016 19:44

we are on 'reverse slopes' as per paki jernails on their media. And pakis cannot fire right back because they cannot be seen to be harming ummah birader across the border on whose behalf they are fighting this holy jang.

as per paki jernails, they are in a trap because Indians are on reverse slopes and they are not exposed to direct fire and pakis cannot fire back because of threat of hurting the civilians so it is all hurt and pain and no retaliation for them.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Nov 2016 20:09

we are on reverse slopes but posts/observation positions have to be on the crest to look into the other side. i was saying atleast with the evidence on hand..the indian position seems to be on higher elevation than similar paki positions. ( the mortars are lobbed to target positions on reverse slopes..because of trajectory of mortar shells). the point u have raised abt ummah is also true and thats why they target the kufar ! in rajouri etc..position south of kashmir.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 28 Nov 2016 20:10

Aditya_V wrote:
Bart S wrote:^As per some reports the Soltam upgrades to the 130 mm M46 guns was limited due to the angle of firing not being very flexible for howitzer mode use once upgraded. Perhaps those can be used on the border as flat trajectory/pistol mode weapons?
M-46 guns always had the elevation problem and hence are restricted to the plains Punjab, Rajastan and Gujarat Borders. They can't be used int he mountains. Thats why they are called field guns and Howitzers.

Thanks for the info, makes sense.

However, please see the post above where the direct (flat trajectory pistol mode) was used. Granted, this might be a rare occasion, but my point was, once we have new 155 mm guns in numbers, perhaps these guns can be redeployed on the border for use as pistol mode guns instead of being mothballed?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Nov 2016 01:36

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 671898.cms
Evidence shows Pakistan's 'complicity' in beheading of Indian soldier, says Army

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2016 06:31

There was a twitter picture of some US night vision goggles found near the incident.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 29 Nov 2016 08:03

Aditya Raj Kaul ‏@AdityaRajKaul 18m18 minutes ago
#BREAKING: Terrorists attack Army unit in Nagrota area near #Jammu. First contact around 5:45am. More details awaited. @TimesNow

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Nov 2016 09:19

Nagrota is not that close to border. Its in between Jammu city and Katra.surprising and worrying to see terrorists reaching there. Can't be done without local moles.

Some muslim colonies have been mushrooming in Jammu. Now we are seeing their effect.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 29 Nov 2016 09:20

The colonies must be under surveillance and should be depopulated soon. Move them into the valley so all roaches can be eliminated in one go.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 29 Nov 2016 10:23

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Major Gaurav AryaVerified account
‏@majorgauravarya
1 Major and 1 soldier martyred in Nagrota attack by Pak terrorists. Encounter in progress. I pray for safety of our faujis. Jai Hind

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2016 10:30

Bart S wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2iJoyEcII4

An explanation from the Paki perspective of where their weaknesses lie vs India on the border, and explains the compulsions that probably make them call our DGMO and run whining to the P5.

I still don't understand the logic on our side though, surely our military folks at least know the true character of the Paki and that this is an endless war till Pakistan ceases to exist. So why give them any concessions? If the tables were turned they would ruthlessly attack us. In fact if they were 10 times our size they would have attacked and wiped us out by now.

Now Pak state cannot do war without approval or support from western countries.
Pak have lost the state support from western countries and usual supporters. This is after 911 and ISIS

The last 30 years are the artificial growth of the Pak state and it is brittle.

India now has to give sufficient 'hit' to shake the state and crumble the state. The Army is the glue to the Pak state. One defeat of the army with disintegrate the state.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 29 Nov 2016 10:32

WT... this has become an every day news, us losing soldiers. Whatever strategy we are adopting is not stopping this.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 29 Nov 2016 10:43

The reason is that we are not hitting hard. Few bunker destruction is not enough for a nation the size of Pakistan.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 29 Nov 2016 10:50

ANI ‏@ANI_news 18m18 minutes ago
Samba Infiltration bid #UPDATE: Two terrorists have been killed, operation continues
0 replies 16 retweets 24 likes

ANI ‏@ANI_news 1m1 minute ago
Samba Infiltration bid #UPDATE: Firefight over, area now being sanitized

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Nov 2016 11:00

We need a lot of UAV which can silent go accross mark the PA positions/Baracks for us which need to hit their soldiers hard. Cause enough PA cusualties and they will behead Hafiz and his son.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Nov 2016 11:03

Aditya_V wrote:We need a lot of UAV which can silent go accross mark the PA positions/Baracks for us which need to hit their soldiers hard. Cause enough PA cusualties and they will behead Hafiz and his son.

Hmm yes but we need to be prepared for lot of their UAV coming in silent and marking IA position etc to aid their terrorist.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Nov 2016 11:12

Nagrota is 16 Corps HQ. It remains to be seen whether the Corps HQ was the target. And IIRC, this is the first time Nagrota has been targeted. Pakistanis ratcheting up the ante. This is part of payback for the surgical strike. They're going to high optics targets in hinterland.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 29 Nov 2016 13:09

Sumann Sharrma ‏@SumannSharrma 33s33 seconds ago
Update on Nagrota- Maj Kunal of Indian Army is martyred. RMO with family trapped inside Officers Mess. 3 injured. Terrorists inside mess.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 29 Nov 2016 13:12

Doordarshan News ‏@DDNewsLive 29s30 seconds ago
#Samba attack UPDATE: 3 terrorists gunned down, BSF DIG and 2 jawans injured