Indo-UK: News & Discussion

[svinayak]

I have great anger towards the British for what they have done to us but you know what? I have greater anger towards our kings, aristocracy, and leaders during the 1700s and early 1800s for allowing this to happen. That's where the most of the fault lies. Our leaders were so corrupted and so selfish that they ignored what was really happening. If a lesson has to be learned, I would rather that the lesson be about how our leaders have failed us and India in the face of the greatest threat that India had faced : the British occupiers.

If you know what the Indian "leaders" did during the 1919 negotiations after the WWI you will not believe it. I will post the info later after I scan it.

[Lalmohan]

The British took India primarily from the Marathas, NOT from the Mughals . I think we need to understand that fact first.

the british took power from lots of different people at different times. it didn't happen overnight. the mughal throne became a 'protectorate' of the company following the defeat of the marathas. the uprising chose delhi to be its focal point and nominated bahadur shah zafar as its symbolic head (albeit reluctantly). some of his sons harboured visions of relaunching the mughal empire once the british were eradicated. the british in their turn were very clear that the house of timur was a threat that had to be eliminated, and anyone connected with it. three of his sons were summarily executed encounter style despite being under protection and with a guarantee given to the queen mother. the officer who did it acted against orders, but was cleared none the less for doing the right thing.

the last mughal is a very interesting book. goes into a lot of detail about the seige of delhi and the politics of the time.

[shyam]

the last mughal is a very interesting book. goes into a lot of detail about the seige of delhi and the politics of the time.

Any book written by a British on India must be read with appropriate amount of salt.

[Lalmohan]

the last mughal is a very interesting book. goes into a lot of detail about the seige of delhi and the politics of the time.

Any book written by a British on India must be read with appropriate amount of salt.

as should any book, because after all we all have brains, don't we? this book does not gloss over or cover up any of the atrocities though.

[Rahul M]

the last mughal is a very interesting book. goes into a lot of detail about the seige of delhi and the politics of the time.

and pretty damning about the behaviour of british soldiers, officers and even the common people.

Any book written by a British on India must be read with appropriate amount of salt.

first read it ! then have as much salt as you need. unlike what you think it brings out the moral hollowness of the EIC cause and brutality of the brit soldiers quite well, far better and far more thoroughly than any Indian has attempted so far, I'm sad to say.

[svinayak]

first read it ! then have as much salt as you need. unlike what you think it brings out the moral hollowness of the EIC cause and brutality of the brit soldiers quite well, far better and far more thoroughly than any Indian has attempted so far, I'm sad to say.

It is still from a Muslim point of view.
Indians need to read account from an Indian/Hindu point of view

[Lalmohan]

^^^ then try "spectre of violence" by rudrangshu mukherjee, although the focus is more on events in kanpur

[svinayak]

That is better

[Lalmohan]

That is better

the main points and conclusions appear to be similar though

[Rony]

William Dalrymple on China

In my travels in the past few months, I have noticed the deals the Chinese have been making with India's neighbours. The Chinese presence in all the neighbouring countries is increasing dramatically. India has to stop thinking about Pakistan as its big rival. It's nothing as compared to the potential danger that China can pose.

Some experts in the West believe that this decade belonged to India and China. Do you think in the next 10 years the centre of power will shift to Asia?

I have friends who believe that the recession and the economic crisis in the West over the last two years has hugely accelerated that process. The rise of India and China now seems to be a certainty. But it's China rather than India that seems to be reaping the benefits of this shift.

It's also leading to a clash between the soft power of the two countries...

In soft power, India is way ahead. At all levels, Indian culture is dominant. And the Chinese can't compete with that at all. But the hard economic power is with China at the moment. China is turning India's neighbours
into its satellites. This is a lesson for India.

And his take on Naxal problem

But this transition has also led to some new social tensions like the Maoist insurgency. Do you think India is managing these conflicts in a sensible way?

I think the current government has been very sensible. After the Mumbai attack, it reacted with astonishing moderation. I think the Maoist insurgency is a big internal problem. And many of the government policies in the past 15 years, liberalization in particular, have aggravated this problem. Now the Naxalites have moved from a fringe phenomenon to a major force. Simply declaring a war on Naxalites is not the right response. There has to be more intelligent response to analyze why so many people have joined the Naxals. The transition in India is going on at amazing pace but the big problem is that the poor have remained poor. The Naxals are growing because the very poor have been left out of the development equation.

[Rahul M]

first read it ! then have as much salt as you need. unlike what you think it brings out the moral hollowness of the EIC cause and brutality of the brit soldiers quite well, far better and far more thoroughly than any Indian has attempted so far, I'm sad to say.

It is still from a Muslim point of view.
Indians need to read account from an Indian/Hindu point of view

what exactly is a muslim POV, unless you mean jihadi POV. and in that war the Indian POV was not always identical with a hindu POV (if there was such a thing).

broad brushes like these have to necessarily dumb down the nuances of that conflict in order to achieve the broad brush effect. the loss of information with such an approach is immense.

[Philip]

I was not born during the days of the Raj and therefore have no colonial "hangover",as displayed by many of our rulers,still with feet mired in the past.Therefore,While one indeed remembers the past history of India,part of the British crown and the "looting","injustices",etc. as many have described,we must look to the future with a solid vision for the country and so that we do not suffer from a fresh bout of invaders,as we have seen in ample measure post-indepndence.I feel that the era of British bashing for the sake of bashing,should've ended at the year 2000.If we need to "bash" them or any other country now,it should be for entirely new sound reasons.As I said before,our internal problems today are of our own making.We must defeat the enemies within first and set our house in order.I think that in other threads we are debating how we can make India a strong power,economically and militarily,so that any attempt at neo-colonialism is soundly defeated.In fatc,today,the biggest threat comes from a rsurgent China which looks at nations around thw world like a predator from the Jurassic Age.What wealth is available to be vacuumed back to China,regardless of the consequences.

In building up a new independent strong India,or relations with nations worldwide need to be improved dramatically in view of the huge competition that we're facing from China.We've "lost" Africa to the Chinese,despite decades of pro-India feelings there.This thread should take more intereest in a positive Indo-British relationship for the 21st century,how to further good relations between two countries which have shared centuries of history.The large successful Indian disapora in the UK is reason enough to want a harmonious realtionship for the future,especially cooperation on defeationg Islamist terror,as Britain is beset with Islamist terror that has emanated form Pakistan,the latest event being the failed air terror attempt by a Nigerian student studying in Britain.

[Karan Dixit]

It seems like after Pakistan, UQ is the greatest exporter of international terrorism (IT).

---

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20091226/twl ... d0ae9.html

The man, said to be a student at a British university, is accused of trying to blow up a transatlantic aeroplane with explosives strapped to his leg on Christmas Day.

[Karna_A]

The British have been practicing what I would call Bodyline Politics for last 200+ years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodyline
The atrocities by British in India are preposterous by any standards, but they have successfully put carpet over them just like they called Bodyline bowling as fast leg theory!

But then there is no denying that accidently the Raj had some useful affects for India.
There is a reason that Bharat Rakshak is in English. The beneficial effects of common language, common rule of laws and civil service cannot be denied, though all of the above were accidental benefits.

[Hari Seldon]

25 Brits in jet bomb plots

COPS fear that 25 British-born Muslims are plotting to bomb Western airliners.

The fanatics, in five groups, are now training at secret terror camps in Yemen.

It was there London-educated Umar Abdulmutallab, 23, prepared for his Christmas Day bid to blow up a US jet.

The British extremists in Yemen are in their early 20s and from Bradford, Luton and Leytonstone, East London.

They are due to return to the UK early in 2010 and will then await internet instructions from al-Qaeda on when to strike.

A Scotland Yard source said: "The great fear is Abdulmutallab is the first of many ready to attack planes and kill tens of thousands.

"We know there are four or five radicalised British Muslim cells in the Yemen.

"They are due back within months when they will be under constant surveillance."

The 25 suspects, of Pakistani and Somali descent, were radicalised in UK mosques.

Some had been to university and studied engineering or computer sciences.

Others were former street gang members.

Special Branch monitored them as they flew to Yemen, in the Middle East, from British airports in the spring and summer.

In almost every case, their tickets were paid for in cash and bought less than a week before travel.

The source added: "Imams would have promised them rewards in heaven for becoming suicide bombers prepared to kill Westerners."

Terrible. Indeed. However, not all is lost. One of the most capable and competent political leader UK-stan has bred in a while is on the case.

PM Gordon Brown and Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson were being briefed.

[Gerard]

Nigerian in aircraft attack linked to London mosque

[Neshant]

Nigerian in aircraft attack linked to London mosque

only a matter of time before a pakistan link is established..

[Hitesh]

If you wanted to blame some Indians for its colonization, I would suggest you to blame almost all intellectual Indians lived in that period for not bothering to understand those foeigners who were going length and breadth of India. While Europeans meticulously wrote down every interaction with Indians, none of the Indians felt like sending few Indians on a ship to Europe to find out who those people were, what they did, how they thought etc. They felt that it was not worth understanding those people who were begging for trading rights.

Net effect was that Europeans fully understood the strengths and weaknesses of Indians, where as Indians had no clue about their enemy. And I won't blame Indians of those days. We still have a huge number of Indians who are in the same mold.

You know, I can wish that I can agree with that but I can't. For example, after the British lost the first Maratha War, the British went back to the drawing board and to the basics and find out why went wrong and what had to be changed and fixed. Sure enough, the British reformed their army and changed their tactics and was able to defeat the Marathas in the second /third war. Even then, the British didn't stop there. They continued to improve their tactics and strategies to defeat Indian forces. Also, for every defeat they suffered, they didn't blame it on superior technology or superior forces of the enemy. Rather, they would blame their own shortcomings and strive to correct their shortcomings. Do you see that ever happening to our Indian forces and military during the 1700s and 1800s? I don't see any example of that. That is a sign of the woeful quality of our leadership and generals at that time. They did not collectively own up to their failures and try to learn from their mistakes and make it better the next time. Instead, they blamed it on others and turned to others to save themselves. What is the result? You know the history.

So even keeping in mind of what the British had done to us, that doesn't excuse our ancestors and leaders' failures and we need to learn from those mistakes and prevent such an occupation from happening again. As they say, "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

So rather than focusing on the atrocities of the British, which is a given, and basically preaching to the choir, let us focus our energy on how we made those mistakes that allowed the British to take us over as opposed to blaming it on the diabolical plan of "Divide and Conquer" strategy of the British. Let us explore on how the British were able to implement that plan on us and what shortcomings of ours allowed that to happen. That would be a better use of energy and would allow us to avoid making the similar mistakes that our leaders and ancestors made. Also, grim reminders such as the fact that the British hold some of our national treasures and refuse to pay repatriations would be better for us in the long run because it make sure of one thing: WE CAN NEVER FORGET and say NEVER AGAIN.

[surinder]

Many of the progressive things that were done were not just for the benefit of the residents of Britain, but because there was a significant body of British opinion that demanded that colonial rule bring some benefits to those it ruled.

The moral question of whether the subjects of empire were seeing improvements in their life was a question that could not just be ignored in Britain.

Johann, the fundamental problem is not if there was a "significant body of British opinion that demanded that colonial rule bring some benefits to those it ruled". The fundamental question is why is an alien nation, far removed from India *EVEN* debating that *IT* should be bringing benifits to India. What business does an alien nation half-way across the world have in governing India?

A nation like UK, which held its own independence & freedom sacred, could not make the simple & elementary jump that other people's independence & freedom might be as sacred as well.

No amount of munificence can compensate for enslavement of India.

Would Britain have aggreed to become a colony of Germany if Germans could give better governance/trains/comunication/education?

Even as far back as the 1830s when the higher education policy of India was being debated between different British groups, the terms of the debate (however wrong) was in terms of its benefit for Indians on the assumption that they would one day be engaged in self-rule.

In 1830 British were making plans to conquer the remaining part of India (notably the Sikh empire). They were fresh from their defeats of the marathas from 1804 or near abouts. Why would they frame the debate that Indians will get self-rule while you are actively engaged in taking self-rule away from them. It sounds irrational, although I am sure it is factually true. This is schizophrenic. If self-rule is indeed so desired by British government, would not be far better to not snatch it in the first place from the Indians?

A large part of the UK-India colonization debate which points to the good intentions of UK & the benifits that accrued to India are like a strong man first breaking the legs of another man, then claiming genorisity in giving it crutches.

[surinder]

Suraj,
That is why the deep and serious study of history and most specifically antropology is important. In the evolution of human history going back tens of thousands of years, one thing we learn is that time is a great equalizer.
I will give you several most recent example.

To this you might add the example of A'stan:

it was the teror of india, Afhgans came over the Khyber as and when they pleased every winter & took gold, women & booty. They ruled large parts of India. Converted many of the "inferiors" including their neighboring cowardly Punjabis, who then became the current day Pakjabis, to their faith. Destroyed India, its heritage, its society at will.

Then fate came.

First they lost out to the kaafir Sikhs, loosing their winter capital of Peshawar, large tracts of lands forever (current day NWFP). Then they had superpowers of the modern era have bombed it (USSR & USA) it mercilessly. The country is thoroughly destoryed, it has the largest number of people in all areas of statistics which it shouldn't (largest number of invalids, largest number of those woudned by mines, largest number of IDP's, largest number of refugees). It has no government, no currency worth its name, no army, no police, no central bank, no university, no nothing. What is even more galling is that an "inferior" Pakjabis, whom they held with contempt in the past, rule them & be a decider of their fates. They have to take baksheesh from the Indians. The saga shows no signs of bottoming out.

[svinayak]

You know, I can wish that I can agree with that but I can't.

What he said was a fact.

[svinayak]

what exactly is a muslim POV, unless you mean jihadi POV. and in that war the Indian POV was not always identical with a hindu POV (if there was such a thing).

It was Mughal point of view I was referring. They were also an imperial ruler and not native to the country. Hence that point of view cannot be a Indian point of view.

[Prem]

On my coming pilgrimage to Aryavart in March, i was gonna make short haul in UQ, till i found out the procedure for visitor visa and 3-6 month processing time. Decided not to go there but how do the Indians put up with such humilating treatment while spending their hard earned money in such unwelcoming country. Any experiecne how the UK HC in India treats Indian applicant for visitor visa?

[Rahul M]

what exactly is a muslim POV, unless you mean jihadi POV. and in that war the Indian POV was not always identical with a hindu POV (if there was such a thing).

It was Mughal point of view I was referring. They were also an imperial ruler and not native to the country. Hence that point of view cannot be a Indian point of view.

that is fine, but someone has to write a book at the same level first.

till that happens it's best to read a book that gives the information and form your own opinion. this is true for any book, whether written from Indian POV or otherwise. to be fair to dalrymple, in spite of his obvious sympathies he hasn't modified or invented info, unlike the slimy thaparites.

[shyam]

You know, I can wish that I can agree with that but I can't. For example, after the British lost the first Maratha War, the British went back to the drawing board and to the basics and find out why went wrong and what had to be changed and fixed. Sure enough, the British reformed their army and changed their tactics and was able to defeat the Marathas in the second /third war. Even then, the British didn't stop there. They continued to improve their tactics and strategies to defeat Indian forces.

There is an important aspect you miss in these incidents. Whenever Indians defeat others, we let them go and let them come back after better preparation. Whenever British (for that matter Islamic invaders too) had a decisive victory over Indians, they made sure that losers never came up. They made sure that enemy's support structure is completely dismantled.

Also, for every defeat they suffered, they didn't blame it on superior technology or superior forces of the enemy.

Sure, they can't because Europeans had superior technology. If they still lost some wars, that tells us something different.

So even keeping in mind of what the British had done to us, that doesn't excuse our ancestors and leaders' failures and we need to learn from those mistakes and prevent such an occupation from happening again. As they say, "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

True. We must learn from history. But the point is we have to learn correct things from history and not the points claimed by victors, who have vested interest to cover up a lot of their own actions that led to their victories.

So rather than focusing on the atrocities of the British, which is a given, and basically preaching to the choir,

The purpose of focusing on British atrocities is prove the shallowness of moral claims made by many British preachers. BTW, British has not yet owned up all atrocities they committed to us. Many of their attrocities are still hidden from public view.

[Rony]

'Londonistan' new terror capital of the West

Britain has turned out to be the new terror capital of the West and whenever a major terrorist attack is attempted or takes place, suspicion automatically swings towards it, as it was in the case of the failed plot to blow an US airliner on Friday.

Fraser Nelson, Editor of The Spectator, said it comes as no surprise to learn that the Nigerian accused of blowing up the US airliner is said to have been living here.

"We have become the number one source of terrorism in the Western world. We shelter foreign jihadis, and even grow our own."

"For years now, Islamic extremists wanted on terror charges in their own country have taken sanctuary in Britain. Our judges (not our politicians) say it would be cruel to send them back to their own countries, in case they're tortured," News of the World quoted Nelson, as saying.

Years ago, the CIA had a name for it: "Londonistan". And Umar Abdul Mutallab may have been a part of it, he said.

As Britain focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan, al Qaeda starts to change its tactics, hoping to blindside the country.

"This is the risk we all live with. The war on terror, or should I say the terrorists' war on us, is still all too real. Abdul Mutallab may well have been a paid-up member of al Qaeda (with a short pension plan). Or just a wannabe," the report says.

[sum]

Britain has turned out to be the new terror capital of the West and whenever a major terrorist attack is attempted or takes place, suspicion automatically swings towards it, as it was in the case of the failed plot to blow an US airliner on Friday.

Fraser Nelson, Editor of The Spectator, said it comes as no surprise to learn that the Nigerian accused of blowing up the US airliner is said to have been living here.

"We have become the number one source of terrorism in the Western world. We shelter foreign jihadis, and even grow our own."

I for one will shed no tears for the Brits in this respect. They brought it onto themselves.

[Jarita]

We desis have to stop blaming the British for all that has befallen us. A 7000 yr old civilization should have the foresight to protect itself. It would be better to examine the underlying factors that led to the takeover.
One thing I have seen is that the anglos are great at objectively studying a subject before they take action. They do this for years. The object of their attention is flattered not realizing that it is the attention of a shark waiting for a kill.
We just don't do it. Unlike Johann and other anglo posters, members and lurkers, how many of us are trying to understand the anglo psyche.
Even when you work with anglos, you'll never see the true biases that the anonymity of the internet will reveal. First, let us understand what they viewed as our weaknesses to manipulate us with and secondly understand them.
As I said before - Don't view India as the world but the world as part of India.
On that note, I belive CHina is our biggest threat and pple are not particularly interested in that country. We need to shift gears from Pakistan

[svinayak]

We desis have to stop blaming the British for all that has befallen us.

After 1947 only Indians can be blamed and the policies such as socialism and license raj.

As I said before - Don't view India as the world but the world as part of India.

This is a good one.

[Tanaji]

On my coming pilgrimage to Aryavart in March, i was gonna make short haul in UQ, till i found out the procedure for visitor visa and 3-6 month processing time. Decided not to go there but how do the Indians put up with such humilating treatment while spending their hard earned money in such unwelcoming country. Any experiecne how the UK HC in India treats Indian applicant for visitor visa?

My experience with UK HC in India has been better than the US one. You dont have to go for an interview, assuming your documents are in order. You have to pay up to the usual racket of photographs, but once you submit everything at VFS, the docs are delivered to your residence in the end...

[Karna_A]

Wahabi extremism is the biggest threat to China, India, Unkil, EU, Shias, Ahmediyas and also to moderate Sunni muslims.
Unkil and UK have more or less understood it. China still has not, but then chinese history is full of opium delusions.

On that note, I belive CHina is our biggest threat and pple are not particularly interested in that country. We need to shift gears from Pakistan

[Surya]

not the right thread but one should see the wailing going on in Brit newspapers on the Chinese execution of a Brit national caught with drugs

[Gerard]

England ready to pull out of Commonwealth Games over terror risk

[Karan Dixit]

We'll slap your face, Iran warns UK


http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/We ... 5944612.jp

[AnimeshP]

Flip

England ready to pull out of Commonwealth Games over terror risk

Flop
UK denies Games boycott

[Hari Seldon]

England ready to pull out of Commonwealth Games over terror risk

Pls do so. Walk the talk. TIA.

[Chinmayanand]

We'll slap your face, Iran warns UK


http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/We ... 5944612.jp

China executes a Briton , Iran threatens to slap... Once mighty Londonistan has come to see this day Only the Lord knows, what's in store in future...

[Hari Seldon]

not the right thread but one should see the wailing going on in Brit newspapers on the Chinese execution of a Brit national caught with drugs

I agree. It does however touch upon one topic that was touched upon in the prev few pages - the necessity to keep the unvarnished memory of past invasions alive among common people lest history be distorted and forgotten with time. Hence, bear with me as I lay out one UK-stani's sophistry-cated whine when PRC showed UK the finger in the execution of Sri Shaikh.

Akmal Shaikh and China's smile diplomacy

Much of the good work done over the past few years by China's sharp and elegant ambassador, Fu Ying, to bolster Chinese soft power in Britain threatens to come unravelled.

Yup. And wasn't UK-stani soft power in India and among Indians based on truth and nothing but the truth, eh?

China of course always bristles at outside interference, which this time included calls for leniency for Mr Shaikh. Many Chinese are furious that nearly all British moralising about the case is being made with blithe forgetfulness about Britain's Opium Wars, a humiliation still drummed into every Chinese schoolchild. For other Chinese, Mr Shaikh's British citizenship may not have been as salient as his Muslim background and his superficial resemblance to those damn pesky Uighurs in Xinjiang.

Re the bolded part, the author profeers no evidence, not even some manufactured survey or something. He just speculates and expects that to be taken at face value. Soft power has its uses, eh? The soft-powered ones can get away with insinuating pretty much anything, seems like.

Lest we forget, this isn't idle banter. The same UK-stani establishment, though its access to the UK-stani press, floated trial balloons even as 26/11 raged essentially suggesting 26/11 was a reactionary revolt by discontent IMs against the Indian state. Thank God for one brave constable Omble who gave his life in capturing Kasab alive, else this meme might have taken a life of its own in the softly-powered UK-stani press and from there spilled over into the khanian one, who knows, eh?

Don't get me wrong. Bear no ill-will against UK-stan. DO business with them when it benefits all parties etc. But please bear them no misplaced goodwill either - for giving us railways or BBC coverage or whatever, like many well-meaning Indians are still wont to do. That is all only.

[bart]

England ready to pull out of Commonwealth Games over terror risk

Pls do so. Walk the talk. TIA.

I would like for us to pull out of the Commonwealth itself.

Don't get me wrong. Bear no ill-will against UK-stan. DO business with them when it benefits all parties etc. But please bear them no misplaced goodwill either - for giving us railways or BBC coverage or whatever, like many well-meaning Indians are still wont to do. That is all only.

To add to that, actively counter any attempts of glorifying Empire or Holocaust denial, so both Indians and non-British foreigners are under no illusions about the horrors of Empire.

[bart]

not the right thread but one should see the wailing going on in Brit newspapers on the Chinese execution of a Brit national caught with drugs

Well, they are right. How dare the Chinese accuse Blitain of smuggling dlugs into China. Wonder where the Chinese get riddiculous such ideas.