Bharat Rakshak

Best & worst car makers of 2010 An Australian market perspective.

JLR and TATA get a good mention:

B+ subject: sales
Rejected by American parent (Ford) but revelling under Indian adoption (Tata Motors). Locally, Jaguar up 22 per cent, Land Rover 35 per cent.

A- subject: product
Little quantity for Jaguar (just three cars) but plenty of quality. Key Land Rover and Range Rover products recently had significant engine and interior upgrades. All eyes now on baby Rangie (Evoque, pictured) due next year.

Gold star
Engineering. Jaguar continues to fare well in quality studies.

Detention
Engineering. Land Rover continues to fare poorly in quality studies.

B+ overall grade
If cashed-up parent (Tata) can keep the funds flowing, JLR has an exciting future ahead.

Front page story in last Sunday's Atlanta Journal Constitution:

Mahindra dealers in U.S. upset at delays in delivery

Vipul wrote:Volkswagen's Sedan to be priced at over Rs 9 lakh, and to be launched on Tuesday.

Seems like Indian auto scene is moving into the big leagues with the better brands muscling in. Although, if people are replacing cars every 3 years, it doesn't matter what brand you buy since the difference between a VW and a Hyundai won't be apparent until much later.

Mercedes sales soar 69% in India
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/merced ... 2010-07-20

LONDON (MarketWatch) -- Daimler AG /quotes/comstock/11e!fdai (DE:DAI 41.31, -0.33, -0.78%) said Tuesday that sales of its luxury Mercedes-Benz lineup surged 69% in India through the first half of the year, earning the brand the distinction of being the strongest premium nameplate in one the world's fastest-growing car markets. Mercedes sales jumped 83% in June alone compared with the same month a year ago. "Sales substantially exceeded our expectations in the first half of 2010, supported in particular by the success of the new E-Class," Joachim Schmidt, head of Mercedes sales and marketing, said. "As was the case in the first six months, we are also aiming to achieve record sales for the full year 2010

Periodic Motor Vehicle Inspection being mooted

The Federation of Automotive Dealers Associations (FADA) along with the Federation of Automotive Manufacturers is set to launch its voluntary automotive test project in Mumbai, New Delhi and Hyderabad next month as a pilot initiative and thereafter gradually make it a pan-India project.

The focus of this initiative from the automotive dealers association and manufacturers, represented by nearly 2,800 dealers across the country, is to ensure that all vehicles that ply on the road are road worthy.

They believe that such periodic checks, inspection and certification will ensure reduction in the number of accidents and rise in general awareness on safety driving.

Yup! Something like the PUC test.

The guy just takes the money and prints a certificate. Doesn't even bother to put the probe in the exhaust. Says "Your car is new TFTA Ford onlee saar. no need to test onlee"

^^Ah! Just like desi mechanic in Arnoldistan I see

I haven't used the desi mech there. I did the smog check twice there. The first time I was scared, being heard all the horror stories. So, went to Kragen and bought a cleaner, and followed the instructions. The philipino bhai at the station was stunned to see the old ford pass with flying colours. Yes, he actually tested, and the data actually got uploaded to the DMV server.

The second time I just took it there, and got almost the same result. this was just before I sold it and moved back.

vina wrote:See the missing link here ?. The North has Maruti, Honda and a pretty robust auto belt in the Delhi/Gurgaon/Rajasthan/ Punjab belt. The south (always traditionally strong in autos) has the Chennai - Coimbatore (for accessories) belt, even Bangalore managed to clamber on board with Toyota, the Western region(a traditional powerhouse) has the Pune /Chinchwad belt, Gujarat has got into the act strongly with GM and now Nano.

So, WHERE IS EASTERN INDIA ? All you have is the terminally sick, rickety , creaking and reeking of the stench of Nehruvian Socialism and JNU/ISI/DSE/Planning Commission "directed economy" and decay, the old grubby HM (even the Lancer division is in Chennai), assembling Ambassadors!

Is the auto sector just a reflection of the overall picture of India ?. Unfortunately that seems to be so.

And the Sothern Indian is likely to emerge as a big auto and auto-ancillary power house. There is a strong focus from the Japanese to integrate South India - Chennai-Bangalore - with their base in SE Asia. There are focussed studies underway to analyze the gaps in the infra and how the same can be plugged. They are talking about Japanese centric Industry clusters....JETRO (Japan External Trade Organization) is the main body pushing it. They also have a hand in the Chennai-Bangalore-Mumbai road link - somrthing like DMIC.

Facebooked: drivers dobbed in online

Indian police have set up a Facebook page for road users to dob in other drivers.

Cars get more reliable in India

Vehicle dependability across the auto industry in India has improved notably in 2010, compared with 2009, according to the J. D. Power Asia Pacific India vehicle dependability study released on Tuesday.

Overall vehicle dependability averages 269 problems per 100 vehicles ( PP100) in 2010, improving by 21 PP100 from 2009. Overall dependability is based on the problems reported per 100 vehicles, with lower scores indicating a lower problem incidence and higher long- term vehicle quality.

Dileep wrote:I haven't used the desi mech there. I did the smog check twice there. The first time I was scared, being heard all the horror stories. So, went to Kragen and bought a cleaner, and followed the instructions. The philipino bhai at the station was stunned to see the old ford pass with flying colours. Yes, he actually tested, and the data actually got uploaded to the DMV server.

The second time I just took it there, and got almost the same result. this was just before I sold it and moved back.

My old civic got emission numbers way better than new TFTA cars - there was a lady behind me whose TFTA Lexus had failed once and she was back for a re-test and the expression on her face was

Ok thats easy
She only had budgeted cost of aquisition with no allowance for running costs!

In case of your car, It is civic sense not to budget for running costs, that is why it makes (eco & nomical) to own Civic.

(A lesson in Civics)

Seems TATAS has managed to turn JLR into profit. This is fantastic news.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/JLR-drive ... 84752.aspx

Rishirishi wrote:Seems TATAS has managed to turn JLR into profit. This is fantastic news.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/JLR-drive ... 84752.aspx

.

Dhoti clad skinflint Yindoo Bania Managmint . What Brits, Germans and Americans cannot do, Yindoos can.

Brits bankrupted JLR and MG Rover. Germans fail with MG Rover , Americans fail with JLR , handing over JLR to Yindoos and the rump of MG Rover to Chinese who were making "Roewe" who will not need to exercise their brains anymore in coming up with funny names and can name them as they always intended to do as Rover.

let us see how they do with volvo worldwide.

Singha wrote:let us see how they do with volvo worldwide.

That will be a total "lift and shift" operation, with nothing left in Sweden in the long term , with probable exception being a "white face" in front and engineering in Sweden. All metal bashing and parts will be Chinese onree.

The key is the new product development and what will follow the current products. That is where the new management skills will come in. Lifting and shifting current parts is fine. What about the next gen. Can you engineer the product ?

well legions of chinese engineers will soon be swarming all over volvo r&d centers to imbibe as much as they can. a few swedes will be posted in china for a few yrs to train the troops, the rest will slowly be let go.

let us see if volvo-sina comes up with a world class vehicle like S80 or S70 in future...

I've been seeing a lot of newish LandRovers around lately, plus a TV/Web ads campaign. In the last week or so I've seen more LRs than Mercs/BMWs

Pretty good.

Marten wrote:Have Tatas brought back any of that learning to their Indian operations yet? I'm still awaiting the Aria from 7 years ago! A slinkier sleeker version of the current Manza. Hopefully they've already started work on the next range that will replace or augment the mid-segment. btw, JLR struggled because of quality issues more then cost. Ford did more to harm Jag's comfy position as luxury manufacturer than any one else (including the recession). Bean counters managed to make a premium brand a common one by using their 312 platform. Owning a Jag was a byatch since the monthly maintenance was pretty high. This was more so true with the PoS S-type that sprung forth from the Lincoln. The latest XJs are heavenly and have shown customers don't care as long as the Marque retains its association with luxury.

Good points there Marten ji.

I would say that Ford ownership was a boon as well as a bane for JLR in general and for Jaguar in particular. Jaguar gained massively on the engine/drivetrain, manufacturing processes and general technology front. The quality also got a big boost under Ford compared to the previously horrible levels (which had a lot to do with The Prince of Darkness' Lucas Electricals apparently). The current crop of engines (esp the AJIII-V8 5.0L) have been getting rave reviews in the press and they trace their roots to Ford (and are built/supplied by them and PSA).

But Jaguar lost its sheen when the bean counters started their efforts at cost optimizations with moves such as badge engineering (Mondeo as X-type) and liberal parts-bin fishing (switches and stalks and various other bits of interior from entry level Fords apparently made their way onto high end Jaguar luxobarges). If you have noted, major improvement across the JLR line right after Ford's departure has come in the levels of interior fit, finish and design - just check reviews of LR4 and XF between pre and post Tata versions, esp the 2010 LR4. This is not surprising, given the fact that Tata has not been fishing in Ford's parts bin too much.

Robust sales in July:

Monthly car sales cross 2 lakh-mark in July

Land Rover to launch production in India

Tata Motors CEO Carl-Peter Forster has announced Land Rover production would begin in India in 2011 and Jaguar is looking for a partner to produce cars within China.

Maruti Suzuki Kizashi to Roll Out Later This Year




Looks nice.

Samsung-Renault has pulled off from the bidding process and Mahindra is now being considered as the preferred bidder by Ssangyong.

Marten wrote:Have Tatas brought back any of that learning to their Indian operations yet? I'm still awaiting the Aria from 7 years ago!

And it seems like the launch is just around the corner...an unofficial first-drive impression is now up on Team-BHP.

does anyone have real photos of the shiradi ghat road thats famous as the car killer and volvo killer?

I read it was paved with a 6" layer of concrete last year but got eaten and spat out by 2 months of monsoon maybe due to improper quality work.

nobody seems to have gone back for a 2nd round of boxing yet.

the Aria looks like a vehicle that can compete with innova...but they need to lose that ancient gap toothed huge grill and huge logo and have a more sophisticated look like front end of Sienna minivan. this will also differentiate vs the dull looking innova which hasnt changed from day1.
http://youngmanmaster.files.wordpress.c ... per_02.jpg

various trim levels (4 say) should be offered, including better sound system , dashboard and auto trans in two trim levels. provide a well designed trunk space. good tires and interior plastic.

Singha wrote:does anyone have real photos of the shiradi ghat road thats famous as the car killer and volvo killer?

I read it was paved with a 6" layer of concrete last year but got eaten and spat out by 2 months of monsoon maybe due to improper quality work.

nobody seems to have gone back for a 2nd round of boxing yet.

Concreting was done in 2007-08 itself for the hairpins onree. Paving the entire length of 35 odd km with concrete will cost mucho dineros, and the govts at both centre and state have been dilly dallying because of that, despite all the lip service that is paid to 'Port CONnectivity'.

The problem nowadays arises in non-concreted sections, particularly at points where the concreted and the non-concreted stretches meet. The Volvo killer tag was earned in the 2006-09 period when it ate and spat out brand new Volvo B7Rs on a daily basis on what is probably one of the premier routes of KSRTC, connecting KA's Capital to its second city. They used to run around 15 Volvo schedules daily (one way alone) on MLR-BLR those days, and I recall reading reports of steep daily losses due to wear and tear.

With no solution in sight, KSRTC turned to the BLR-MYS-MERCARA-MLR route as an alternative.

Below are some older pics from '08 to give you an idea.

The tightest of the hairpins on the route - must have destroyed more B7Rs than any other part of this route.


Why the road disintegrates - greater than 4000mm annual rainfall+heavy loads moving to and from MLR port = disaster for roads.


The solution - Work in Progress in 2008 at one of the hairpins.

the drop between the concrete and earth seems like 8". so if car wheel goes there by accident or forced off by a truck, the car is likely to suffer some serious damage.

there is one "charmadi ghat road" that tbhp vets talk about, that is scary but in better condition allegedly.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogu ... rmadi.html

we have an inhouse TATA rep at BRF. Why not put your questions to him

Singha wrote:the drop between the concrete and earth seems like 8". so if car wheel goes there by accident or forced off by a truck, the car is likely to suffer some serious damage.

there is one "charmadi ghat road" that tbhp vets talk about, that is scary but in better condition allegedly.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogu ... rmadi.html

Yes. I too spoke of it when we were giving route suggestions to Sachin on the Roads thread.

manish wrote:If one is looking for alternates to Shiradi Ghat, there is also the option of taking the Charmadi Ghat section. The problem with this or Mysore route is that neither of them do not offer trouble free motoring due to existence of patchy sections.

But Charmadi too has its share of problems. For one, there have been a few cases of landslides on that route, which is not a very comfortable thought when you consider driving during the peak monsoon. I don't know about the current status, but I last travelled on it in 2008 in KSRTC bus, and then I did see a few sections where the edges of the road had simply caved into the valley below. They might have fixed them by now.

Secondly, the route is not a viable option for the so-called 'luxury' bus operators due to the narrow roads. The route reportedly is safe only for what are known as '9m chassis' buses (a-la the original KSRTC Raja Hamsa design that resembled a pregnant whale). The newer Prakash/Veera built buses typically fall into the 12m category (and the B7R is 12.7m IIRC) which means they wont be able to make it through the twisties there.

Third was a nuisance brought about by the troubles on the Shiradi Ghat section. Every now and then the gubmint of KA imposes a blanket ban on movement of heavy vehicles (other than buses) moving on Shiradi Ghat when the road start falling apart as part of the annual monsoon season circus. Many of the truckers migrate to the Charmadi route if they can (road dimensions permitting of course). It tended to be a major pain a couple of years back.

Should be OK for private vehicles though.

Marten wrote:Apparently all one needs to do is ask Tata. (re: my previous comment). The Aria will be launched in September. However, this will be the MUV version and not the sedan that I was hoping for. Forgive me if the images are too large for your screen.

Here's the 2 door 2010 version from AmitBhiwani.com:

And the Tata Elegante 2010 concept that I believe should have gained from the JLR experience (but apparently has not)

Marten ji, it was made clear by Tata from the very beginning that the Aria roadster and coupe (2000, not 2010) were not meant for production and were merely concepts/design studies.

The Aria crossover on the other hand is a direct descendant of the Tata Xover concept (which in turn seems to be loosely related to the earlier, smaller Indiva concept based on the Indica platform). Tata probably just went ahead and reused a name the rights to which it already owned (Apparently the naming rights were the reason why Suzuki had to rebadge the Splash as Ritz in India - FoMoCo owns it here I have heard).

The Elegante was originally from 2007 and thus (like the Aria roadster/coupe) had no way in hell of being influenced by the subsequent takeover of JLR in mid-2008. It was meant to be an indicator of the design path taken by the Gen II Indigo (aka Manza) and it seems to me like it does have a very close resemblance to the final Indigo Manza design.

I OTOH believe that Tata, given the context of the Indian auto industry of 1990s and early 2000s, should actually get a lot more credit for being so creative and free thinking with respect to concepts and design studies. I am sure some here would recall the Tata Magna which was a design study for a large (say a Corolla/Octavia sized) car.


Auto India had even carried a small 2-3 page article on it with photos of the actual prototype. Tata had no expertise there, but was willing to learn as shown by those efforts. Just Compare this to MSIL.

Then of course there was the Pininfarina penned Prima in 2009, but by then Tata was already on the global map with JLR in its kitty.

MSIL seems to turn a profit mostly on those cars imported from parent (preferably older lines whose cost is amortized already).

but since india has 100s of millions of people going to shift from bikes to cars in the next few decades, they should prosper enormously by packing the lineup of small cars.

wow
http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/09/images/ ... 510601.jpg
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/iipcache/69815.jpg

whats so wow about them? Ever travelled on Delhi roads?

This years first quarter & last year delhi roads were like this. 'Coz the govt only wanted to build them before the games.

India's top utility vehicle maker Mahindra and Mahindra has been chosen as the preferred bidder to take over South Korea's bankrupt Ssangyong Motor, creditors said.

Ssangyong said it would sign a memorandum of understanding with the Indian carmaker by the end of this month before due diligence begins in September.

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaki ... 1225f.html

I do agree there is a vast difference between delhi posh areas and non-posh areas. think its always been the case.

blr is very secular...almost every area is bad to shameful. last sunday we were driving near whitefield when some temple
festival had blocked the main varthur road. police directed us into a diversion which kept on going for kms with a speedbreaker
every 10 yards, then across a muddy dirt track for kms into another cement road which looped back and joined the main
road just 100m past the temple!

this in an area where ample open space is available for any communal festival.

I feel we should be very secular and block the sale and use of loudspeakers for any reason except police and this blocking of
roads for any reason.

i never mentioned his name
If you haven't already got it, then i could point you to him

Anybody test drove or had a long distance travel in Force motors Cruiser
the equivalent Bolero (M&M) and Tata Sumo?

It seems to have a good and proven M Benz diesel engine.

Also any input on Sonalika Rhino (supposed to have Rover proven Diesel engine)

I am trying to dump my 2009 November new purchase of Maruti 800 duo for any of the above new one.

Thanks in advance

ShivaS wrote:Anybody test drove or had a long distance travel in Force motors Cruiser
the equivalent Bolero (M&M) and Tata Sumo?

It seems to have a good and proven M Benz diesel engine.

Also any input on Sonalika Rhino (supposed to have Rover proven Diesel engine)

I am trying to dump my 2009 November new purchase of Maruti 800 duo for any of the above new one.

Thanks in advance

Shivas R boss, I am no expert, but here are my 2 cents on the topic at hand.

If I were you, I would limit my choice from the above list to the Bolero alone (that too preferably the CRDI 97hp ones).

Sonalika and Force Cruiser DI (if that is what you were referring to) are way too crude. I am not too sure, but the renowned Mercedes-Benz OM616 has probably discontinued on the Trax (aka Cruiser/Magna/Gurkha/Judo or whatever else it is currently called) and it is now powered by a fairly basic 2.6L unit of uncertain origins. The erstwhile OM616 Judo was indeed a good vehicle with great offroad ability (and little else!) at a steep 9L+ price but I don't know if it is still available. To add to the problems, it was made to order towards the end of its life and getting one off a Force Motors dealer was a mighty difficult job per Team-BHP reports. Do check out posts made by one Samurai on T-BHP regarding his (vain) efforts at getting one a couple of years ago.

Sonalika is just too crude, it is almost like a half-baked attempt at coming up with a quasi-Qualis from a tractor mfr with no prior experience in mass produced automobiles of personal nature (yes yes I know about the Lambo story but this is Sonalika!!).

Sumo Victa or the more recent Grande are certainly better than the above two but still aren't all that great as a whole package IMHO. Grande's higher end versions will cost as much as a Safari LX if I am not mistaken, while offering far lower levels of comforts/presence/image etc.

That leaves us with the Bolero. People of India have voted time and again with their wallets in favour of this and it also happens to be a sarkari favourite. (OT trivia alert: Apparently, the NREGA scheme in certain part of India earned the nickname of 'Bolero Scheme' due to the ubiquitous presence of the Bolero in projects associated with it, often bought by money siphoned off by 'stakeholders'). It has decent features, a very good AC, offering ride comfort and space slightly inferior to the Tata offerings but with fantastic residual resale values unlike a Safari or a Grande (not sure about this one, there aren't that many around).

Then again, its an entirely different question altogether if one needs a vehicle of this class (please don't get me wrong saar, just asking cuz you are currently on an 800. Sorry if I came across as anything else!). Perhaps you could look at a Safari LX/Scorpio LX if a rugged and stylish people mover is needed in the 7-8L range?