2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

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vina
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

-deleted.
Last edited by vina on 18 Apr 2011 16:19, edited 1 time in total.
Sanku
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

vina wrote:
By THAT logic, they should consider whether the location of lines should be nearer to coast or further inland. They should consider what are the costs of building trains which can stand a earthquake and if too expensive consider buses instead (a trade-off can be considered, have elevated rails, what not)
Ah. Brilliant. So let us look at the corollaries that follow.
!
No such corollaries follow, the above post is a example of useless garbage which can happen when data is attempted to be extrapolated beyond logical bounds. Also I really dont get why people feel that their lack of proper thought process should be blamed on the post which triggered the thinking hey if you see sun and feel hungry for a ladoo, does that mean Sun is a ladoo?

Also Ramana has asked you not to take pot shots, so instead of trying these extrapolation exercises of others though process, stick to useful material.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Sanku »

Conflict of interest situation (exactly like I said before) finally acknowledged by Japan

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=204066893

Ex-regulators banned from TEPCO (2:16)

===========================

Japanese are very angry at TEPCO and the Govt and feel (of course very rightly) that the situation has been mismanaged. No doubt they are being lied to for companies to make profits in the name of betterment of Japanese people as well.

http://dalanreport.com/index.php?option ... 7&Itemid=4
Polls released Monday by a trio of newspapers indicated the Japanese people are unhappy with the government's handling of the situation. About two-thirds of respondents expressed dissatisfaction.
========================

The reactor continues to be dangerous to work in.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... le1989096/
Readings Monday from robots that entered two crippled buildings at Japan's tsunami-flooded nuclear plant for the first time in more than a month displayed a harsh environment still too radioactive for workers to enter.
............

The robots being used inside the plant are made by Bedford, Mass., company iRobot. Traveling on miniature tank-like treads, the devices opened closed doors and explored the insides of the reactor buildings, coming back with radioactivity readings of up to 49 millisieverts per hour inside Unit 1 and up to 57 millisieverts per hour inside Unit 3.

The legal limit for nuclear workers was more than doubled since the crisis began to 250 millisieverts. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency recommends an evacuation after an incident releases 10 millisieverts of radiation, and workers in the U.S. nuclear industry are allowed an upper limit of 50 millisieverts per year. Doctors say radiation sickness sets in at 1,000 millisieverts and includes nausea and vomiting.
Another example of legal limits being arbitrarily jigged because the current limits would be just unworkable.

It remains to be seen what will be the final impact of letting people be exposed to radiation far outside the older permitted limits.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:
Actual headline of the article:
WHO/IAEA: Japan nuclear accident no worse
:roll:
Now, for most, a report like "We successfully evacuated everyone and all are safe" would be good news.
And it is not the same thing as "All are gone (read killed) and no one is left "

(Also notice, that, for all we know now, the evacuation is just temporary but even if it is not temporary it is not the same thing as ' no effect on public because no public is left')

Chaanakyaji - Think about it. Really think about it. Do you really think it is "clever" manipulation of the headline on your part? Thinking q=mct will give internal energy of water is one thing but this?
I am not sure how you read it as line is very clear that "...no public is left inside evacuation zone". You have made it as "All are gone ( read killed) and no one is left" . Well that's your reading Amber not mine.

WHO clearly says that there would be no public health problem and the reason could be that no one is inside the evacuation zone to suffer from excessive radiation. Still they point out the need to monitor public health for next 10-20 years to study likely effects. Clearly they are not ruling out radiation related illness.

I think you have taken q=mct a little far when you perhaps know what it means in the context written. But then your' choice.

I see Raman garu has already issued general warning for not taking potshots and I hope people might resort to civil conversations.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

vina wrote:
In any case this is not even a science issue, it is a engineering issue.
Indeed, but we have such elevated such discussions to swarga to keep company with Swargiya Devi Lal Ji .

Case in point as illustration, the following.

1) 1.25 cups = 1 bucket (must be a pretty small bucket or a rather large cup indeed and not the 200ml cups and 20L buckets)

2) Concrete Burqa! CONCRETE BURQA . But why /why not ? Why not? because, that will mean admitting to Russian - American Equal Equal. :shock: . Why because I knew it , right from the moment it happened :roll: (psstt. I never moved away from my keyboard!)!

3) You can predict with 100% certainty the height of the next Tusnami event! So, that plant should have a Tsunami wall of 1000M , which is what could happen if a giant meteorite hits the seas off location X!

4) And oh, I don't know Jack Schmit about science or engineering or basic probability & stats, but will call others "ignorant", but dont have the cojones to bet Rs 10 on it when someone calls it, but somehow think it is an insurance scam!

5) Well, I know Rankine Cycle BEFORE Carnot cycle (I learnt driving in reverse) and I use Rankine cycle in Turbines!

6)My stump speech before the next Green Congress election, taking inspiration from our source of inspiration. is as below

"When I become president of the Green Congress, I will campaign against Wind Power. The Wind Energy folks are cheating us. They remove all the "Bijli" out of the wind offshore and in the hills and other locations, and what we therefore get is shakti-heen "praan vayu" and hence the rise in respiratory disease of all kinds and general lack of vitality. So we will make sure that you get all the shakti shali "vayu" with the vayu shakti/ bijli intact!"
Well as usual

However If you google for Organic Rankine Cyle you will get tonnes of materials and also names of organic materials used in these cycle for low range heat extraction and also used for waste heat recovery, power generation etc. Since I have seen working plants so I don't need further to explain. You can easily dig up materials if you want to. Doing it with Cooling Ponds for spent fuels would be an engineering issue not the question of science.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Meanwhile NHK seems to have reported a confirmed partial meltdown of one of the reactor.
Well I could get a cached copy.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... 13_22.html
Likely partial meltdown at second reactor
Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says the level of coolant water at another reactor of the Fukushima No.1 nuclear power plant has decreased.

At 11 AM on Sunday, Edano told reporters that as the level of coolant at the Number 3 reactor of the Fukushima No.1 power plant has dropped, it is believed that part of the fuel rods became exposed.

This indicates the possibility that fuel rods at the reactor at the nuclear power plant may be melting, following a similar event at the Number 1 reactor on Saturday.

Edano said work was underway to ease pressure inside the reactor's container, and to pump water into it to raise the water level.

He said boric acid was added to the water to slow chemical reactions of the nuclear fuel.

Edano said radioactive materials were detected near the plant. He said the highest level of radiation recorded near the nuclear power station was 1,204.2 microsieverts per hour at 8:33 AM.

Edano said this was probably because the air inside the reactor's containment vessel is being discharged in an attempt to decrease the pressure.
Sunday, March 13, 2011 14:32 +0900 (JST)
This would certainly account for higher radiation and findings of isotopes of cesium and reportedly strontium.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Robots detect high levels of radiation

Remote-controlled robots have detected high levels of radiation inside the reactor buildings at the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The plant operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company, on Monday released radiation data and photos taken by the US-made robots. The company conducted the survey using the robots on Sunday and Monday.

This is the first time the situation inside the buildings has been made public since the March 11th disaster triggered a series of nuclear accidents. Workers have been unable to approach the buildings due to high radiation levels.
TEPCO said the robots surveyed the first floor of the No.1 reactor for about 50 minutes and detected maximum radiation readings of 49 millisieverts per hour.
A person staying in such an environment for 5 hours would be exposed to 250 millisierverts of radiation -- the legal limit for nuclear workers in emergency situations.

The survey inside the No. 3 reactor lasted for about 2 hours, but the plant operator says the robots had difficulty moving around because of the debris. The maximum radiation reading was 57 millisieverts per hour.

The power company says it hopes to find locations where workers can go to carry out decontamination tasks so it can implement its schedule for bringing the troubled plant under control.

On Sunday, the utility presented a schedule for cooling down the reactors and significantly reducing radiation leaks within 6 to 9 months.

Monday, April 18, 2011 18:58 +0900 (JST)
Well apart from High radiation at the plant premises hampering the cooling efforts and other containment works, TEPCO is in for a long haul of 6-9 months only for cooling the reactor and bringing down radiation level to significantly (?) lower level.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Workers cannot approach reactor buildings
At the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, high levels of radiation have kept workers from approaching the buildings housing the first 3 reactors, which lost their cooling functions in the March 11th earthquake and tsunami.

On Friday, the highest radiation level measured outside the double-entry doors of the Number 1 to 3 reactor buildings was 2 to 4 millisieverts per hour.

Radiation levels measured between the double doors of those reactor buildings was 270 millisieverts in the Number One reactor, 12 in Number 2, and 10 in Number 3.
The radiation level detected at the Number One reactor exceeds the national exposure limit of 250 millisieverts for nuclear contract workers.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, TEPCO, has started using a remote-controlled robot inside the reactor buildings.

But issues remain as radioactive water has been found in turbine buildings and the utility tunnel outside the reactors.

At the Number 2 reactor, the level of highly contaminated water in the tunnel is still rising. To prevent overflow, TEPCO is stepping up the inspection of the nuclear waste processing facility, to which it aims to transfer contaminated water.

Underground water at the plant is also contaminated.
On Wednesday, the level of radioactive substances sharply increased at facilities where underground water from the Number 1 and 2 reactors is collected.

On Friday, workers kept on monitoring the situation.
They say the level of radioactive substances has stabilized or decreased in every reactor from 1 to 6.

So they say it's unlikely that highly radioactive water is still seeping into underground water.
Monday, April 18, 2011 08:44 +0900 (JST)
This explains the need for using robots to monitor radiation levels.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Finally a piece of good news for evacuees . Edano says they can return to Fukushima (unless I am misreading) in 6 months time.
Edano: evacuees may return home in 6 months
Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary says residents around the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, who are currently displaced, may be able to return to their homes in 6 months at the earliest.

Yukio Edano was speaking on Monday, one day after the plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Company unveiled a plan to get the plant under control.
.
The plan aims to achieve a steady reduction of radiation in the first 3 months and, in the next stage, to get the release of radioactive materials under control 6 to 9 months from now.

Edano said the timetable was compiled by experts and he believes it is feasible.

He added that the government will closely monitor the situation because it is still too early to relax with continuing aftershocks.

Edano said the completion of the second stage of the plan will serve as a target after which some residents may be able to return to their homes.
Monday, April 18, 2011 13:28 +0900 (JST)
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Meanwhile "experts" from Govt's Nuclear safety commission goes to Fukushima one month too late.
Japan Nuclear Safety Commission members arrive in Fukushima 37 days after quake

Members of the Japan Nuclear Safety Commission were dispatched to Fukushima Prefecture on April 17, more than a month after a massive quake and tsunami crippled a nuclear power plant in the prefecture.

Under the government's disaster prevention plans, members are supposed to go "immediately" in the event of a nuclear power plant accident. Commenting on the reason for their delayed arrival, a representative of the commission's secretariat explained that the commission had been busy following up inquiries from the government's disaster countermeasures headquarters and related government agencies.


Deputy Fukushima Gov. Masao Uchibori reported the members' arrival at a meeting of the prefecture's main office for disaster countermeasures on the evening of April 17.

"I talked with members for the first time on the 38th day from the day of the earthquake disaster. I told them to go to local areas, listen to victims and respond appropriately," he said
.

Commission members, who were dispatched as specialists providing emergency technological advice to the government's local headquarters for nuclear disaster countermeasures, did not attend the meeting of the prefecture's main office for disaster countermeasures or meet with Fukushima Gov. Yuhei Sato -- a move that incurred his criticism.

"Surely it's common knowledge that they should show their faces. What are they doing arriving now?" Sato said.
Well lack of communication was one of the earlier points made in this thread.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Experts doubt TEPCO's timetable for bringing nuke plant under control
Experts have called into question the feasibility of the controversial timetable unveiled by the Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) for bringing its crippled Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant under control.

"I got the impression that the plan is only a nonbinding target. I fear it will be fairly difficult to achieve the plan as nuclear reactors and other equipment have not been brought under full control yet,"
said Hidekazu Yoshikawa, professor emeritus at Kyoto University, who specializes in nuclear reactor engineering.

Kyushu University professor Kazuhiko Kudo is also skeptical about the viability of TEPCO's plan announced on April 17, which is aimed at making the reactors stable -- a process called a "cold shutdown" -- within six to nine months, with a "step one" period eyeing a steady decline in the radiation leakage dose within the next three months.

"The 'three-month' target is a best possible scenario, and whether it can be achieved or not depends on how much water the utility can prevent from leaking from the pressure vessels and the containment vessels. It is imperative to install an external system to recycle cooling water as soon as possible," Kudo said.


It has been pointed out that water leakages, due possibly to damage to the pressure vessels and the containment vessels, may be helping to stop water levels in the No. 1, 2 and 3 reactors from rising as much as expected.
This is despite the continued water injection to cool down the reactors, which is preventing TEPCO from embarking on substantial work to achieve a cold shutdown. It is feared the fuel rods in the spent nuclear fuel pool in the No. 4 reactor have also been damaged.


"While the sources of the water leaks must be located as quickly as possible, more urgent work needs to be done because the radiation doses at the facility are extremely high," said Takashi Sawada, vice chairman of the Atomic Energy Society of Japan.

To bring about a cold shutdown within nine months, TEPCO's roadmap presumes that the pressure vessels of the No. 1, 2 and 3 reactors are sound and that the containment vessels other than that of the No. 2 reactor are all free of damage.

"These presumptions are in themselves ridiculous as they haven't been confirmed as facts. The plan is nothing but pie in the sky," lambasted Keiji Kobayashi, former instructor at Kyoto University Research Reactor Institute.

Furthermore, attempts to bring the crippled plant under control have been repeatedly suspended due to a spate of aftershocks affecting the region, prompting another expert to fear that a massive tsunami triggered by a possible ocean-trench earthquake could further delay restoration work.

"The plant could be hit by a massive tsunami topping several meters in height. Restoration work needs to proceed while taking heed of preventing a secondary disaster from happening," said Takashi Furumura, professor of seismology at the University of Tokyo's Earthquake Research Institute.


(Mainichi Japan) April 18, 2011
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

A piece of news I would have missed during last four days absence is that Govt of Japan perhaps ( not yet confirmed) is planning to dismantle TEPCO. This was before TEPCO cam out with a nine month plan for achieving cold shut down of the reactor. and EDANO announced that some of the evacuees may return to FUKUSHIMA in six month's time.
This is interesting because it points to the possibility of power struggle and TEPCO's stranglehold on political and bureaucratic class and division among them. This nexus could have lead to TEPCO bypassing many safety related features and embark on cost cutting measures by resortin g to dubious engineering practices , pointed out in various postings and commented also by Theo. Others might have chosen to ignore that as it proves culpability of TEPCO in this crisis. In fact many other plants have survived due to enhanced measures of safety implemented as a result of revision of quake and tsunami related guidelines bu GOJ in 2006.

Government considering plan to dismantle TEPCO

Since it is claimed to be secret plan its authenticity is not confirmed.
A secret plan to dismantle Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), the operator of the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant, is circulating within the government.

The proposal, which is associated with a faction of bureaucrats who have long supported liberalization of Japan's power industry, envisages the passing of a special measures law that would put the company under close government supervision before eventually bankrupting it and completely restructuring its remnants.

There are also proposals to smash the company's powerful influence on politicians and the mass media and force executives to give all their pay and severance settlements to victims of the earthquake.

However, a rival faction in the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry and the Agency for Natural Resources and Energy (ANRE) and politicians with links to the power industry may try to fight or emasculate the radical proposals.

Sources said internal government discussions about how to handle TEPCO began in earnest around March 28, as it became clear that trillions of yen would be required just to compensate residents of Fukushima Prefecture affected by the nuclear disaster. The plan to dismantle the firm was being circulated by the end of the month.

At its center is a special measures bill placing TEPCO under government supervision and paving the way to pulling it apart.

A former ANRE official who supports the plan said: "The special measures law will be necessary when we consider the need for comprehensive reform of TEPCO's management, including the establishment of a third-party organ to certify compensation decisions, a way to come up with the funds to pay compensation, and the separation of the company's nuclear energy department."

According to an outline draft proposal, there would be four main measures within the bill.

An independent committee would be established within the government to oversee TEPCO's management. It would monitor the selection of executives, the compensation process and management reform.

The law would allow the government to guarantee all loans from financial institutions needed to pay for the disaster response at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant.

Business transactions, such as payments for fuel, would also be protected.

Finally, the law would put a moratorium on the repayment of debt, including corporate bonds, from before the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

A key issue in handling the issue will be timing. If the government uses public funds to save the company before the compensation to be paid out is decided, the burden on the public is likely to be increased.

Even if the central government injects capital into TEPCO in exchange for preferred stock, that stock would have a subordinate claim to the assets of the company compared with debt held by financial institutions and corporate bonds. Its claims would be the first to be pushed aside in bankruptcy proceedings.

A government official said it would be folly to "inject fresh water into polluted water, because that water would end up becoming polluted as well."

Instead, supporters of the restructuring plan want to keep TEPCO in its current form in the short term and use government guarantees to keep it running.

Those guarantees would not extend to financial claims dating from before the finalization of the government bailout plan, including approximately 2 trillion yen ($23.6 billion) in emergency loans recently extended by major financial institutions.

A government source said those loans had been "something the private sector did based on its own risk assessments."

The plan expects bankruptcy proceedings to begin once the amount of compensation is settled and the total cost of handling the Fukushima accident can be estimated.


According to the company's financial statements for the fiscal year ending in March 2010, TEPCO had 13.2 trillion yen in assets and 10.6 trillion yen in liabilities. If compensation exceeds the difference between those amounts, TEPCO would have excess liabilities. Some estimates put the cost of compensation and handling the Fukushima accident at approximately 10 trillion yen, meaning TEPCO is already effectively bankrupt.

The plan envisages a drastic restructuring of TEPCO during the bankruptcy and rehabilitation process.

During the bankruptcy proceedings, a financial dissolution plan would be compiled after most of the debt was finalized. That plan would likely include eliminating all the company's capital and asking financial institutions to forgive debt.

To lessen the impact on the corporate bond market, the discounting of bonds would likely be less severe than the writing off of debt from financial institutions.

The biggest issue at the rehabilitation stage is likely to be a proposal supported by some METI officials to separate the power generation and power transmission arms of TEPCO.

When Britain privatized its electricity generation industry, it was separated into two distinct sectors: companies handling power generation and firms responsible for power transmission. The aim was to keep down the price of electricity by encouraging competition in the industry.

In Japan, all nine electric power companies handle both power generation and transmission, and they have been fighting the idea of separating the two functions for years.

Under the plan, TEPCO would first be made a holding company and subsidiaries would be established to separately handle power generation and power transmission. Conventional thermal and hydro power plants owned by the power generating arm would be gradually sold off to new entrants to the market. Selling off plants and profitable subsidiaries would lessen the financial burden on the public.

Eventually, TEPCO would end up as a power transmission company on a far smaller scale than it is at present.

Sources said separation into power generation and transmission companies would probably happen two or three years after passage of the special measures law.

There are also proposals for a ban on political donations by TEPCO and its labor union. The power industry is known for its strong political connections, with key backers including Lower House member Akira Amari and other Liberal Democratic Party members, who make up the commerce lobby, and Upper House Democratic Party of Japan member Masashi Fujiwara, who has roots in the Federation of Electric Power Related Industry Worker's Unions.

Another issue that may be addressed is TEPCO's influence over the mass media, maintained using a huge advertising budget, which was used to foster the widespread belief that nuclear plants did not pose a safety risk.

There are also proposals to force all TEPCO executives to donate all of their remuneration and severance pay to victims of the nuclear accident, to cut corporate adviser posts, and to prevent retiring executives from getting jobs at related companies, a practice known as "amakudari."

The fate of the plans may partly rely on bureaucratic politics, and, specifically, the relative influence of two rival bureaucratic factions within METI and ANRE.

Around 2004, when Katsusada Hirose and Seiji Murata were METI vice ministers, a group arguing for liberalization of the electric power industry was in the ascendancy. But bureaucrats defending the status quo, under the patronage of Hideji Sugiyama and Takao Kitabata, who later served as vice ministers, have made a comeback and now hold a number of important ministry posts. The plan to dismantle TEPCO is associated with the liberalizing group.

One high-ranking ANRE official emphasized that the plan had not yet been authorized, and a mid-level METI bureaucrat said, "It is only being talked about by those in the Prime Minister's Official Residence and the National Policy Unit."

There is a strong possibility that the plan will be watered down by politicians in the Diet or emasculated by officials in METI and ANRE, which has been chosen as the lead agency overseeing the future of TEPCO
.
Only future action would tell if such a plan was ever conceived.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Tsunami hit more than 100 designated evacuation sites
KYODO
More than 100 evacuation sites designated by local governments were swept away or inundated by the tsunami triggered by the March 11 earthquake just off the Tohoku region's coast, according to a tally compiled by Kyodo News.

Many people are thought to have lost their lives after fleeing to those sites, believing they would be safe, but no data have so far been collected on the death toll at those places.


There have been no moves so far among citizens to hold local governments responsible for designating those sites, apparently because the scale of the tsunami was beyond what had been foreseen.

But calls will likely grow for a review of locations of evacuation sites along coastal regions. Municipalities throughout the country had picked around 70,000 such sites as of April 1, 2008, according to the Fire and Disaster Management Agency.

At least 101 designated sites were hit by the disaster in Iwate, Miyagi and Fukushima, the three Pacific coast prefectures struck hardest by the gigantic waves after the quake, according to the tally.


Local governments in Fukushima Prefecture have not been able to grasp the extent of damage because the ongoing crisis at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant has made it difficult to conduct research in the area around the plant. The sum of tsunami-hit evacuation sites may well thus rise further.

In Minamisanriku, Miyagi Prefecture, for instance, 31 of its 80 designated sites were hit. "Most of them were washed away," said an official.

In the same prefecture, Onagawa's 25 sites were set up at locations at least 6 meters above sea level, a lesson the town learned from the major tsunami that reached the region after the 1960 Chile quake. The March 11 tsunami, however, smashed 12 of the 25 sites.

In Iwate Prefecture, the city of Kamaishi had four of its 69 sites damaged and the city of Ofunato six of its 58 sites. In the town of Yamada, public buildings were wiped out by the tsunami and fires, leaving at least a dozen people missing.

Local governments designate sites for evacuation from tsunami and quakes. Many are public structures such as elementary and junior high schools or local assembly buildings, as well as shrines and temples. Some are upland parks or vacant land lots.

In Otsuchi, Iwate Prefecture, Koganji Temple, located just under 1 km from the shore, was a designated evacuation site. The temple survived the big tsunami of 1896 and had held a disaster preparedness drill just one week before the March 11 tsunami.

On March 11, neighbors gathered after a tsunami warning was issued. Deputy chief priest Ryokan Ogayu, 52, and his wife, Tomoko, directed people to move farther upland at the temple entrance gate but the temple was soon swallowed by waves.

The couple were eventually rescued but their 19-year-old son, Hiroumi, and Tomoko's father-in-law and chief priest, Hideaki, 82, who were with the couple before the tsunami, are missing. There were also 30 others within the temple's premises, she said. The temple was later hit also by a fire.

"We thought it was safe," said Tomoko, adding that it should be studied why it came to be designated as an evacuation site. If standards for selecting sites no longer fit the reality, they should be revised, she said
.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Kan eyes consumption tax hike to fund rebuilding



Prime Minister Naoto Kan intends to raise the consumption tax temporarily to finance post-quake reconstruction measures.

A proposal to increase the 5-percent consumption tax by 1 to 3 percentage points for two to three years is being considered within the government, according to sources.

A 1-point increase would bring in an additional 2.5 trillion yen to government coffers a year.

The government plans not to issue government bonds for the first supplementary budget of about 4 trillion yen. But government bond issues are expected to be required for much larger subsequent extra budgets to pay for long-term reconstruction measures.

Kan intends to use the increased revenue from the consumption tax hike to redeem these bonds, the sources said. Other possibilities include increasing the income and corporate taxes
.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Part of the solution is the part of the problem
METI officials urged not to seek post-retirement jobs at utilities
TOKYO, April 18, Kyodo

The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry has urged its senior officials not to seek post-retirement jobs at utility firms, as it prepares to review its handling of atomic energy in the wake of the emergency at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, industry minister Banri Kaieda said Monday.
How many of us actually remember that Nira Radia employed TRAI chairmen Pradip Baijal in her Company Vaishnavi Communications and 2Gs are so famous that a thread is dedicated to the scam here. I personally know of many examples an how it was achieved.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

A wise decision by Kan. Will it be really implemented?
Kan touches on need to freeze plans to build nuclear facilities
TOKYO, April 18, Kyodo

Prime Minister Naoto Kan on Monday touched on the need to freeze Japan's plans to build new nuclear facilities in the wake of the world's worst nuclear accident in a quarter century at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant.

''We will not proceed with the plans that have been put forward up to now'' before the government completes a full examination of the accident and makes sure nuclear plants in the country are safe, Kan said in a parliament session.


Before the crisis at the plant, triggered by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami, the government had set a target of adding 14 or more nuclear power stations by 2030 as part of its efforts to fight global warming.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Chronology of events surrounding crippled Fukushima nuclear plant

A good recap of events surrounding NPP Daiichi.
TOKYO, April 17, Kyodo
The following is a chronology of events regarding the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power station in Fukushima Prefecture, triggered by the March 11 earthquake and tsunami.

March 11 -- Magnitude 9.0 earthquake forces power plant's Nos. 1-3 reactors to suspend operations automatically (Nos. 4-6 reactors were shut down, undergoing regular checks). Prime Minister Kan declares nuclear emergency, directing local residents in 3-kilometer radius of plant to evacuate.

March 12 -- Kan inspects stricken plant. Radioactive steam is vented from No. 1 reactor's containment vessel. Hydrogen explosion rips No. 1 reactor building. Government expands evacuation zone to 20 km radius of plant.

March 14 -- Hydrogen explosion rocks No. 3 reactor building. No. 2 reactor's fuel rods are exposed as water recedes inside reactor vessel.

March 15 -- Kan scolds Tokyo Electric Power (TEPCO) officials at company head office. Explosion is heard near suppression chamber of No. 2 reactor's containment vessel. Explosion is also heard at No. 4 reactor. Government directs residents in 20-30-km ring of plant to stay indoors.

March 16 -- Damage is feared to have been done to No. 3 reactor's containment vessel, forcing workers to retreat.

March 17 -- Ground Self-Defense Force helicopters drop water on No. 3 reactor building. Fire engines spray water from ground.

March 18 -- Nuclear safety agency gives crisis involving Nos. 1-3 reactors preliminary value of Level 5 on nuclear accident scale of 7.

March 19 -- Tokyo firefighters spray water at No. 3 reactor. Government announces detection of radioactive materials in raw milk in Fukushima Prefecture and spinach in Ibaraki Prefecture above allowable levels.

March 20 -- Nos. 5 and 6 reactors enter stable condition called ''cold shutdown.''

March 21 -- Workers are evacuated from No. 3 reactor after smoke spews out.

March 22 -- Large concrete pump drops water on No. 4 reactor.

March 23 -- Elevated level of radioactive iodine is detected in water treatment plant in Tokyo, prompting metropolitan government to urge people not to give tap water to infants.

March 24 -- Three workers are exposed to elevated levels of radiation at No. 3 reactor's turbine building. Metro government rescinds drinking restriction for infants.

March 25 -- Government urges people living in 20-30-km ring of plant to evacuate on their own.

March 26 -- Radioactive iodine is found in seawater near drainage for No. 1 reactor at 1,850 times allowable level.

March 27 -- High levels of radioactive water are found in tunnels near turbine buildings for Nos. 1-3 reactors.

March 28 -- Highly contaminated water is found in basement of No. 2 reactor's turbine building. TEPCO announces detection of plutonium on plant premises on March 21 and 22.

March 30 -- TEPCO chairman Katsumata announces decommissioning of Nos. 1-4 reactors.

April 2 -- Cracked pit near seawater intake for No. 2 reactor is found leaking water.

April 3 -- TEPCO announces finding bodies of two workers at No. 4 reactor's turbine building on March 30 who were apparently killed in tsunami.

April 4 -- TEPCO begins dumping relatively low-level radioactive water into sea.

April 5 -- Radioactive material is found in young sand lance caught off Ibaraki Prefecture. TEPCO begins paying compensation money to municipalities facing evacuation directive.

April 6 -- TEPCO says leaks of highly contaminated water into sea stopped. Work begins to put nitrogen gas into No. 1 reactor to prevent hydrogen explosion.

April 7 -- Worst aftershock strikes Miyagi Prefecture, elsewhere.

April 10 -- Work begins to remove rubble, possibly emitting radiation, on plant premises with remote-controlled heavy machines.

April 17 -- TEPCO says it aims to bring damaged reactors to stable condition in 6-9 months, restore stable cooling to reactors, spent fuel pools in 3 months.

==Kyodo
chaanakya
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

From WIKI

In terms of absolute carbon emission India is ranked fifth, way behind China USA and EU.

Rank Country Annual CO2 emissions[8][9]
(in thousands of metric tonnes) Percentage of global total
World------ 29,321,302===== 100%
1 China---6,538,367.00 ====22.30%
2 United States---- 5,838,381.00==== 19.91%
- European Union==== 4,177,817.86---- 14.04%
3 India ------1,612,362.00==== 5.50%
4 Russia----- 1,537,357.00---- 5.24%
5 Japan------ 1,254,543.00---- 4.28%

India is years behind in terms of reaching that level of emission. Besides per capita carbon emission is one of the lowest in the world.
It is 23.5 for USA(7 overall and first among developed) and 1.7 for India( 120th) . ( 2005 data) Tonnes of CO2 eq.

So Who has obligation to reduce should do more. Sales talk would not help much.

Same way to look at it. Data points may differ.

http://timeforchange.org/CO2-emissions-by-country
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Radioactive sand causes mutations in human DNA
The study was carried out among residents of Kerala, a densely populated area at the southern tip of India, where thousands of traditional fishing families have lived for generations. The residents are exposed to a naturally occurring radiation dose ten times higher than the worldwide average.

The glistening black sand on the beaches contains radioactive materials such as thorium and monazite. Kerala has the world's highest level of natural radioactivity in a densely populated area, according to the researchers. The radioactive strip measures an area of ten kilometers by one kilometer.

"Our family study encompasses several generations per family, and therefore we saw what was really happening with the new mutations," says Peter Forster, a molecular geneticist at the McDonald Institute, University of Cambridge, U.K.

Forster and his team studied 988 individuals of 248 families that have been exposed to high and low levels of natural radiation throughout their lives, including five families with four generations. Residents from nearby low-radiation islands served as a control population.


High-radiation and low-radiation localities sampled in this study. Radioactive areas are identifiable by the presence of black monazite sand, rather than the white nonradioactive sand elsewhere.

For two years, Lucy Forster, of the University of Münster, Germany, and others on the team collected DNA samples in Kerala and analyzed them in the lab.

The researchers looked at the DNA from mitochondria, the tiny energy producers of human cells that live outside the nucleus and have their own DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from the mother and can be used to determine whether a mutation is passed on from the mother to her descendents.

The scientists identified 22 mutations in the mitochondrial DNA sequences of families living in the high-radiation area. By comparison, a control population living on white sand nearby only had one mutation.

Interestingly, these mutations were located at positions the researchers refer to as "evolutionary hot spots," which mutate much faster than other positions during evolution, according to the findings published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The research doesn't necessarily suggest a link between the 22 mutations and disease. "We intentionally analyzed a non-coding region of the DNA where mutations have no effect on health or on any other visible features," says Forster.

The new findings may have implications for current radiation standards. "It might be worth considering whether to lower the allowed limits for radiation workers of reproductive age," says Forster. The maximum allowed for workers exposed to radiation (in research or in nuclear facilities) is 50 times higher than normal.

Previous studies indicate that there is no conclusive evidence that people living in places with natural radioactivity are at a higher risk for cancer and other health-related problems.



There are similar natural radiation areas in southern China, Iran and Brazil, but the Kerala coast in southern India is believed to be the only high-radioactivity region with a high population density
.
There are studies which point to various conclusions some opposing each other. It would be foolish to dismiss one or the other without further research and if and when a consensus is arrived at among the scientists and experts' community. Layman is bound to get conflicting ideas. Afterall we all know the blind experts describing elephant in the room.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

chaanakya wrote:
Amber G. wrote: (quote from Chaanakya)
WHO says there is no effect on public health since no public is left inside evacuation zone
end quote..
Actual headline of the article:
>>>WHO/IAEA: Japan nuclear accident no worse<<<
:roll:
Now, for most, a report like "We successfully evacuated everyone and all are safe" would be good news.
And it is not the same thing as "All are gone (read killed) and no one is left "

<snip>
Chaanakyaji - Think about it. ..[If the headline is a "clever" manipulation] <snip>.
I am not sure how you read it as line is very clear that "...no public is left inside evacuation zone". You have made it as "All are gone ( read killed) and no one is left" . Well that's your reading Amber not mine.

WHO clearly says that there would be no public health problem and the reason could be that no one is inside the evacuation zone to suffer from excessive radiation. Still they point out the need to monitor public health for next 10-20 years to study likely effects. Clearly they are not ruling out radiation related illness.
Chaanakya - My point was very clear, why change headline from
"WHO/IAEA: Japan nuclear accident no worse"
to:
"WHO says there is no effect on public health since no public is left inside evacuation zone"

To me, and I believe to most, this is unhelpful. If you insist that was okay, and everything is very clear, I will take your word for it. To me it looked very strange JMHO.
I think you have taken q=mct a little far when you perhaps know what it means in the context written. But then your' choice.
[/quote]
From my point of view: (And check out the record, if you wish)
1. You inserted that equation inside my quote, I asked you to edit and remove it from my quote.
2. You did that. Thanks for that. But you also mocked ( ":rotfl:" at my request), and kept mocking for that simple request. (To be fair, you have apologized later, and that I appreciate).
3. GuruPrabhu graciously pointed out the right direction to find how internal energy is calculated.
4. It would have been simple, to thank him, correct or acknowledge it and move on. No one would have brought it again if you did not keep insisting that q=mct was correct.
5. I have even pointed out a great lecture where this is actually derived.
6. If you don't like q=mct being mentioned again, all you have to do is to say it. I, for one, will be more than happy to drop it. At present it looks like that is what you believe, and IMO thats not what most scientist think when they think about internal energy.

If you really paid attention to my posts, you would have realized that I put quite a bit of effort to make technically difficult things clear. Examples are radiation doses and its biological effects.. LNT hypothesis and what it means.. difference between Bq and Sv etc..etc..It's one thing to ignore it, or take it for what's it worth for you, but I think it is impolite to keep throwing insults, (I am not taking about you), do a = = ityadi.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

chaanakya wrote:Radioactive sand causes mutations in human DNA

<snip>
There are studies which point to various conclusions some opposing each other. It would be foolish to dismiss one or the other without further research and if and when a consensus is arrived at among the scientists and experts' community. Layman is bound to get conflicting ideas. Afterall we all know the blind experts describing elephant in the room.
Don't know if its always the case of blind experts or विद्वानेवोपदेष्टव्यो नाविद्वांस्तु कदाचन .. but IMO it will indeed be foolish to dismiss any important finding with further research.. That's why much further research has been done... (after all people in Kerala are there for eons.. and Prafulji (See the article linked by me before) alone is not an expert on radiation dangers..)

Well even in Brf, we have posts .. for example see my posts on Apr 15..
These studies have been done on very large population indeed.. let me repost it:
>>>>
Here is one abstract:
Background radiation and cancer incidence in Kerala, India-Karanagappally cohort study.
(Nair RR, Rajan B, Akiba S, Jayalekshmi P, Nair MK, Gangadharan P, Koga T, Morishima H, Nakamura S, Sugahara T.)
(Health Phys. 2009 Dec;97(6):637-8.)
Abstract
The coastal belt of Karunagappally, Kerala, India, is known for high background radiation (HBR) from thorium-containing monazite sand. In coastal panchayats, median outdoor radiation levels are more than 4 mGy y-1 and, in certain locations on the coast, it is as high as 70 mGy y-1. Although HBR has been repeatedly shown to increase the frequency of chromosome aberrations in the circulating lymphocytes of exposed persons, its carcinogenic effect is still unproven. A cohort of all 385,103 residents in Karunagappally was established in the 1990's to evaluate health effects of HBR. Based on radiation level measurements, a radiation subcohort consisting of 173,067 residents was chosen. Cancer incidence in this subcohort aged 30-84 y (N = 69,958) was analyzed. Cumulative radiation dose for each individual was estimated based on outdoor and indoor dosimetry of each household, taking into account sex- and age-specific house occupancy factors. Following 69,958 residents for 10.5 years on average, 736,586 person-years of observation were accumulated and 1,379 cancer cases including 30 cases of leukemia were identified by the end of 2005. Poisson regression analysis of cohort data, stratified by sex, attained age, follow-up interval, socio-demographic factors and bidi smoking, showed no excess cancer risk from exposure to terrestrial gamma radiation. The excess relative risk of cancer excluding leukemia was estimated to be -0.13 Gy-1 (95% CI: -0.58, 0.46). In site-specific analysis, no cancer site was significantly related to cumulative radiation dose. Leukemia was not significantly related to HBR, either. Although the statistical power of the study might not be adequate due to the low dose, our cancer incidence study, together with previously reported cancer mortality studies in the HBR area of Yangjiang, China, suggests it is unlikely that estimates of risk at low doses are substantially greater than currently believed.

PMID: 19066487 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19066487
Link
Several studies have attempted to assess the health effects of the extra terrestrial radiation present in Kerala, India. The people who live in this region are exposed to much higher levels or terrestrial radiation than people living just about anywhere else in the world.

One particular research study involved over 100,000 inhabitants living in or near Kerala. These people were interviewed about their lifestyle, occupation, housing, tobacco and alcohol use. Statistics were also performed on the incidences of cancer. A comparison between people in the highest radiation zones and those in lower, normal areas indicated there was no increase in the incidence of cancer in the people who lived in areas with more radiation.

A similar study monitored the health of newborns in Kerala. Again the scientists found no correlation between a higher incidence of cancer and the higher doses of radiation.

Since radiation causes cancer shouldn't people living in regions where they are exposed to higher levels of radiation have a higher incidence of cancer? The correlation seems to fit, { At comparatively higher background rates the correlation seems to fit better as I have posted multiple times citing studies} but the results of the Kerala studies prove otherwise. Is it possible that the people of Kerala have some sort of cancer protective gene or genes? Future studies are aimed at determining whether this may be a possibility.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amber G. wrote:
chaanakya wrote:[
(quote from Chaanakya)
WHO says there is no effect on public health since no public is left inside evacuation zone
end quote..
Actual headline of the article:
>>>WHO/IAEA: Japan nuclear accident no worse<<<
:roll:
Now, for most, a report like "We successfully evacuated everyone and all are safe" would be good news.
And it is not the same thing as "All are gone (read killed) and no one is left "

<snip>
Chaanakyaji - Think about it. ..[If the headline is a "clever" manipulation] <snip>.
I am not sure how you read it as line is very clear that "...no public is left inside evacuation zone". You have made it as "All are gone ( read killed) and no one is left" . Well that's your reading Amber not mine.

WHO clearly says that there would be no public health problem and the reason could be that no one is inside the evacuation zone to suffer from excessive radiation. Still they point out the need to monitor public health for next 10-20 years to study likely effects. Clearly they are not ruling out radiation related illness.
Chaanakya - My point was very clear, why change headline from
"WHO/IAEA: Japan nuclear accident no worse"
to:
"WHO says there is no effect on public health since no public is left inside evacuation zone"

To me, and I believe to most, this is unhelpful. If you insist that was okay, and everything is very clear, I will take your word for it. To me it looked very strange JMHO.
I think you have taken q=mct a little far when you perhaps know what it means in the context written. But then your' choice.
[/quote]
From my point of view: (And check out the record, if you wish)
1. You inserted that equation inside my quote, I asked you to edit and remove it from my quote.
2. You did that. Thanks for that. But you also mocked ( ":rotfl:" at my request), and kept mocking for that simple request. (To be fair, you have apologized later, and that I appreciate).
3. GuruPrabhu graciously pointed out the right direction to find how internal energy is calculated.
4. It would have been simple, to thank him, correct or acknowledge it and move on. No one would have brought it again if you did not keep insisting that q=mct was correct.
5. I have even pointed out a great lecture where this is actually derived.
6. If you don't like q=mct being mentioned again, all you have to do is to say it. I, for one, will be more than happy to drop it. At present it looks like that is what you believe, and IMO thats not what most scientist think when they think about internal energy.

If you really paid attention to my posts, you would have realized that I put quite a bit of effort to make technically difficult things clear. Examples are radiation doses and its biological effects.. LNT hypothesis and what it means.. difference between Bq and Sv etc..etc..It's one thing to ignore it, or take it for what's it worth for you, but I think it is impolite to keep throwing insults, (I am not taking about you), do a = = ityadi.[/quote]

I don't think I was meaning internal energy but the energy required to change the temp of liquid for a given amount of mass. That T was meant to be delta T as pointed out by GP and I had corrected that as well. SO I don't think the equation is wrong, In fact the analogy quoted from Busby's article was twisted out of shape. It was simple and to the point. Just to compare temp diff and the impact it causes with different amt of water etc. Unfortunately it generated so much of posts and potshots. Inserting that was not to attribute it to you. If you felt that way I could help a little but to accept your request. You can mention it as much as you like I don't think it affects me a bit, but does it help in the topic going forward as of now?

To be sure I have objections to BED in the sense that it unconsciously leads to the inference that since banana is good therefore radiation is good and also the more banana the more goodness and in similar vein the more radiation the more goodness it accrues. Such a inference would neither be implied nor intended nor appropriate. It is like selling car by showing beautiful models. What models have to do with selling of car? But its the way sales works. That psychology is sought to be exploited here. Why not find some other neutral alternative .

Anyway I never meant to insult or mock you/others unless it is intended by others first. One can say same point in without taking potshots as Vina and GP are accustomed to , as evidenced in many threads. In fact if you see my previous ( initial posts) I had requested mods to move nuclear related posts to septate thread as I knew it needed separate treatment lest tsunami/quake related news got sidelined.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Bade »

Mutations happen all the time and is that not a requirement for evolution anyway. Whether it is for good or bad is decided in the long run. A faster process of mutation aided by natural radiation excess cannot all be bad. The population has been exploding there over the centuries and perhaps even the most healthiest relative to the all India average. So there is not even circumstantial evidence to indicate otherwise as of now.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Amberji If you see the last line of the report quoted , it ack the research indicating no correlation etc. I am sure there are many studies pointing in both directions and unless consensus is achieved, the matter would remain inconclusive. You can hold your opinion. I have reserved my opinion on the side of caution. I think in a discussion each side (if it is so) is entitled to hold its ideas.

BTW the main issue arises from attribution of radiation ( and there are different types of it to confound the matter) as causative factor for morbidity and mortality of various types since , often they are far removed in time and space.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

chaanakya wrote:However If you google for Organic Rankine Cyle you will get tonnes of materials and also names of organic materials used in these cycle for low range heat extraction and also used for waste heat recovery, power generation etc.
Saar, So does my refregirator use a "reversed organic rankine cycle "? It uses an organic working fluid (mine uses Pentane and says it is 100% CFC, HFC, HCFC free!). Just throwing fancy names doesn't make it better.

I told you earlier that the working fluid whatever suitable one there is does NOT influence efficiency. That is the basic. I tried telling you, Hindu Paani, Muslim Paani, Yehudi Paani, all same same as long as it works for that cycle. Like Deng Xiao Ping said, Black cat, white cat, as long as it catches mice!
Since I have seen working plants so I don't need further to explain. You can easily dig up materials if you want to. Doing it with Cooling Ponds for spent fuels would be an engineering issue not the question of science.
Saar. Everyone has seen a Rankine cycle at work! Right from a steam engine choo-choo to a power plant to everything and everyone has an approximately reversed version (actually reversed carnot cycle) of it working at home in a machine called a refrigerator!

The highlighted part is PRECISELY the issue I told you about with all that talk about sink and ideal temperature and sensible heat and everything .Engineering IS the reality check to science. In fact in Thermodynamics was developed by Engineers first before the scientists adopted it!

What you had proposed was using the heat from the spent fuel in the cooling ponds to drive the auxiliary systems like circulation pump! The issue is NOT whether you can generate power out of that decay heat. Of course you can! I pointed out to you the kind of efficiencies you will get ( 1 - (temp sink/temp source)) and comes to around 15% if the water is at 80C and the sink is at 25C and the energy you can extract is far far less than the power that will be required to drive the pumps! That IS THE POINT. Notice, this does not depend on whether the working fluid for your heat extraction cycle is Organic or inorganic like water. It doesn't matter.

And yes, just because you dropped the word Rankine cycle with respect to turbine, I pointed out to you that gas turbines work on Brayton cycle!
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Bade wrote:Mutations happen all the time and is that not a requirement for evolution anyway. Whether it is for good or bad is decided in the long run. A faster process of mutation aided by natural radiation excess cannot all be bad. The population has been exploding there over the centuries and perhaps even the most healthiest relative to the all India average. So there is not even circumstantial evidence to indicate otherwise as of now.
No question there. Natural evolution is way of life. Cloning is not.
Bade , Kerala or Ramser is not the question. It is natural radiation and might have caused /not caused higher mortality attributed to radiation. The question is that of man made radiation and exposing the population without consent or their knowledge. If you see workers are exposed to higher radiation, but it is not disputed as it is informed one and consent is given. In other cases Public would not even know if they are subjected to higher does and if they agreed to it.
if I willingly take the radiation I take the consequences, mutation or disease or death, whatever.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

vina wrote:
chaanakya wrote:However If you google for Organic Rankine Cyle you will get tonnes of materials and also names of organic materials used in these cycle for low range heat extraction and also used for waste heat recovery, power generation etc.
Saar, So does my refregirator use a "reversed organic rankine cycle "? It uses an organic working fluid (mine uses Pentane and says it is 100% CFC, HFC, HCFC free!). Just throwing fancy names doesn't make it better.

I told you earlier that the working fluid whatever suitable one there is does NOT influence efficiency. That is the basic. I tried telling you, Hindu Paani, Muslim Paani, Yehudi Paani, all same same as long as it works for that cycle. Like Deng Xiao Ping said, Black cat, white cat, as long as it catches mice!
Since I have seen working plants so I don't need further to explain. You can easily dig up materials if you want to. Doing it with Cooling Ponds for spent fuels would be an engineering issue not the question of science.
Saar. Everyone has seen a Rankine cycle at work! Right from a steam engine choo-choo to a power plant to everything and everyone has an approximately reversed version (actually reversed carnot cycle) of it working at home in a machine called a refrigerator!

The highlighted part is PRECISELY the issue I told you about with all that talk about sink and ideal temperature and sensible heat and everything .Engineering IS the reality check to science. In fact in Thermodynamics was developed by Engineers first before the scientists adopted it!

What you had proposed was using the heat from the spent fuel in the cooling ponds to drive the auxiliary systems like circulation pump! The issue is NOT whether you can generate power out of that decay heat. Of course you can! I pointed out to you the kind of efficiencies you will get ( 1 - (temp sink/temp source)) and comes to around 15% if the water is at 80C and the sink is at 25C and the energy you can extract is far far less than the power that will be required to drive the pumps! That IS THE POINT. Notice, this does not depend on whether the working fluid for your heat extraction cycle is Organic or inorganic like water. It doesn't matter.

And yes, just because you dropped the word Rankine cycle with respect to turbine, I pointed out to you that gas turbines work on Brayton cycle!
Well then that settles the issue. You can run something else, if not auxiliary pumps. That was the whole point of lalmohan if I understand him correctly. he did not mention Auxiliary pumps. May be I did.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

Gov't under fire for disaster response; TEPCO chief heckled in Diet
Monday 18th April, 12:15 PM JST

TOKYO —
A blueprint for ending radiation leaks and stabilizing reactors at Japan’s crippled nuclear plant drew a lackluster response Monday, as polls showed diminishing public support for the government’s handling of the country’s recent disasters.

The plan issued by Tokyo Electric Power Co over the weekend, in response to a government order, is meant to be a first step toward letting some of the tens of thousands of evacuees from near the company’s Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant return to their homes.

Those forced to flee due to radiation leaks after a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami on March 11 knocked out the plant’s power and cooling systems are frustrated that their exile will not end soon. And officials acknowledge that unforeseen complications, or even another natural disaster, could set that timetable back even further.

“Well, this year is lost,” said Kenji Matsueda, 49, who is living in an evacuation center in Fukushima after being forced from his home 20 kilometers from the plant. “I have no idea what I will do. Nine months is a long time. And it could be longer. I don’t think they really know.”

Pressure has been building on the government and TEPCO to resolve Japan’s worst-ever nuclear power accident, and Prime Minister Naoto Kan is facing calls for his resignation.

“You should be bowing your head in apology. You clearly have no leadership at all,” Masashi Waki, a lawmaker from the opposition Liberal Democratic Party, shouted during an intense grilling of Kan and members of his cabinet in parliament Monday.

“I am sincerely apologizing for what has happened,” Kan said, stressing that the government was doing all it could to handle unprecedented disasters.

TEPCO’s president, Masataka Shimizu, looked visibly ill at ease as lawmakers heckled and taunted him.

“I again deeply apologize for causing so much trouble for residents near the complex, people in Fukushima and the public,” Shimizu said.


Meanwhile, polls by several Japanese national newspapers released Monday showed widespread dissatisfaction with TEPCO’s plan and how Kan’s administration has dealt with the nuclear crisis.

“Nothing concrete,” said a headline in the Mainichi newspaper of the plan. “The nuclear timetable does not show enough consideration for the residents,” said the Nihon Keizai, a financial newspaper.

A majority of those surveyed in the polls by the Mainichi, Nihon Keizai and Asahi newspapers expressed support, though, for tax increases to pay for reconstruction of areas devastated by the tsunami.

Goshi Hosono, an adviser to the prime minister and member of his nuclear crisis management task force, said the government would closely monitor TEPCO’s implementation of its crisis plan and hoped it could be carried out ahead of schedule.

The timetable’s first step focuses on cooling the reactors and spent fuel pools, reducing radiation leaks and decontaminating water that has become radioactive, within three months. The second step, for within six to nine months, is to bring the release of radioactive materials fully under control, achieve a cold shutdown of the reactors and cover the buildings, possibly with a form of industrial cloth.

Nuclear safety officials described the plan as “realistic,” but acknowledged there could be setbacks.

“Given the conditions now, this is best that it could do,” said Hidehiko Nishiyama of the government’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, adding that conditions at the facility remain unstable.

Explosions, fires and other malfunctions have hindered efforts to repair the stricken plant and stem radiation leaks.

“There is no shortcut to resolving these issues. Though it will be difficult, we have to go step by step to resolve these problems,” he said.

Even with the announcement of the timeline, it remained unclear when evacuees might be able to return home.

The area would need to be decontaminated, including removing and replacing the soil, Nishiyama said.

Hosono said the evacuees would not have to stay in gymnasiums for such a long period, but would be moved into temporary housing.

Some evacuees were unswayed by TEPCO’s plan.

“I don’t believe a word they say,” said Yukio Otsuka, 56, a private school owner whose home is about three miles (five kilometers) from the power plant. “I don’t trust them. I don’t believe it is possible. We have really drawn the short stick on this one.”

Activists criticized the delay in the roadmap’s announcement.

“TEPCO has taken far too long to provide an indication of the direction it plans to take to bring the situation at Fukushima Dai-ichi under control,” said Philip White of the Tokyo-based Citizens’ Nuclear Information Center, a group of scientists and activists who have opposed nuclear power since 1975. “We hope TEPCO meets its targets, but there are many challenges ahead and many uncertainties.”

The unveiling of the roadmap came two days after TEPCO - also under pressure from Kan’s government - announced plans to give 1 million yen in initial compensation to each evacuated household, with much more expected later.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

Chaanakya wrote:I don't think I was meaning internal energy but the energy required to change the temp of liquid for a given amount of mass. That T was meant to be delta T as pointed out by GP and I had corrected that as well. SO I don't think the equation is wrong, In fact the analogy quoted from Busby's article was twisted out of shape. It was simple and to the point
The analogy was WRONG. Period.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

vina wrote:
The analogy was WRONG. Period.
Well it does CONVEY the point made by the author.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Bade »

chaanakya wrote:No question there. Natural evolution is way of life. Cloning is not.
Bade , Kerala or Ramser is not the question. It is natural radiation and might have caused /not caused higher mortality attributed to radiation. The question is that of man made radiation and exposing the population without consent or their knowledge. If you see workers are exposed to higher radiation, but it is not disputed as it is informed one and consent is given. In other cases Public would not even know if they are subjected to higher does and if they agreed to it.
if I willingly take the radiation I take the consequences, mutation or disease or death, whatever.
In case of NPP in Japan or even in India, both being democracies, it will be hard to agree on the bolded part. People in Japan knew what the bargain was both for NPP as well as building settlements in Tsunami zones from historical records. There is always a bargain in any situation when one uses technology including driving cars, flying etc.

So far the measurable evidence from high background radiation elsewhere and its impact on human health is inconclusive, and the exposure levels to the general population from Fukushima is well below the danger zone for a cumulative dose threshold over a lifespan.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by vina »

Well it does CONVEY the point made by the author.
With basic facts wrong, you cant CONVEY any point! In fact you dont have a point!
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by chaanakya »

vina wrote:
Well it does CONVEY the point made by the author.
With basic facts wrong, you cant CONVEY any point! In fact you dont have a point!
Well if one JUMPS into he fire it would be obvious otherwise not..
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Bade »

If you do not believe in guvermint data, there is plenty for areas other than the Tsunami ravaged parts. It would have been nice to have them routinely, but nature decided otherwise.

http://gebweb.net/japan-radiation-map/
The average person experiences background radiation of around 2 million nGy/year, so the value 1000 nGy/h (labeled as red) should be interpreted as "reaching typical annual level in approximately 80 days". No immediate health risk, but worth keeping an eye on.
Here is an example time series data for what is available.
http://gebweb.net/japan-radiation-map/m ... e_window=m
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Bade »

http://www.mext.go.jp/english/radioacti ... 304082.htm
Readings at Monitoring Post out of 20 Km Zone of Fukushima Dai-ichi NPP
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by ramana »

Again guys cool it.. Dont get worked up.
Thanks, ramana
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

chaanakya wrote:Amberji If you see the last line of the report quoted , it ack the research indicating no correlation etc. I am sure there are many studies pointing in both directions and unless consensus is achieved, the matter would remain inconclusive. You can hold your opinion. I have reserved my opinion on the side of caution. I think in a discussion each side (if it is so) is entitled to hold its ideas.

BTW the main issue arises from attribution of radiation ( and there are different types of it to confound the matter) as causative factor for morbidity and mortality of various types since , often they are far removed in time and space.
Many (Bade et all) have already made the point clear. Few points, I may add:
1) You have right to your own opinion, and that can be respected but not your own facts.

2) With all due respect, it might be helpful to understand basic fundamentals of statistics to understand what "no correlation" means. Particularly in this case, statistical analysis shows no validity of LNT hypothesis.
As to :
I am sure there are many studies pointing in both directions and unless consensus is achieved, the matter would remain inconclusive.
If you are sure, why not cite a SINGLE reputable study instead of opinion pieces of what one may think. The people are living in Kerala (not to mention in Colorado, Idaho, Iran) for centuries. So there is no lack of sample data. The key point here is be quantitative. In US for example, cancer rate varies from state to state from 16% to 24% and it would have been easy to find correlation if LNT method indeed had some validity. The studies mentioned before had 100,000+ sample size for Kerala.. and there have been *many* studies, all leading to essentially the same point. I don't think Praful Bidwai will ever be convinced. He or you, for that matter, certainly entitled to hold any idea you wish. Others on the other hand, are also entitled to hold any opinion on their idea, they wish.

Over and out.. on this point.

P.S. We are not talking about some one saying "radiation causes mutation" as a study, what I am looking for is a clear cut study showing the relationship between low doses of radiation and demonstrable/objective health effects.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

chaanakya wrote: .... <snip>
Well as usual

However If you google for Organic Rankine Cyle you will get tonnes of materials and also names of organic materials used in these cycle for low range heat extraction and also used for waste heat recovery, power generation etc. Since I have seen working plants so I don't need further to explain. You can easily dig up materials if you want to. Doing it with Cooling Ponds for spent fuels would be an engineering issue not the question of science.
To be honest, even easier (hazar times easier) than google and dig up materials is to understand even basics of neutron flux and things like that.
(After all you would be working with NPP)
So Chaanakyaji, if you choose to answer, I have put a very simple question in other the thread .. let me repeat it here..
The neutron flux in Druva was observed (or said to be) 4x10^10 neutrons/cm^2. How does this compare with the deuteron flux
in a 100-muamp cyclotron beam (say of IIT mumbai) that covers an area of 1.0 cm^2.
You will agree, that answer to this is hazar times easier than any heat-transfer or Rankine Cyle feasibility study... see if the neutron flux will be a problem or not.

I will wait for your answer.

If you want to suggest a solution, will not at least a basic understanding of science is needed to test if the solution will work?

Now, let us see, you are talking heat-transfer so at least you must have worked out how much heat is generated by spent fuel. The decay heat depends, obviously upon amount of fission products. Will you be able to put a answer to Q1 I asked in the other thread.

Of course, it up to you to answer. I am just curious what your answer will be.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

vina wrote:
Chaanakya wrote:I don't think I was meaning internal energy but the energy required to change the temp of liquid for a given amount of mass. That T was meant to be delta T as pointed out by GP and I had corrected that as well. SO I don't think the equation is wrong, In fact the analogy quoted from Busby's article was twisted out of shape. It was simple and to the point
The analogy was WRONG. Period.
Have to agree with Vina on that. I don't know how chaanakya ji was not meaning internal energy when he EXPLICITLY said that. Not only that (and the record is clear) even after *many* valid and helpful points made and attention drawn to it, he kept insisting how that is valid.

Nothing was twisted out of shape, the equation was not only wrong, it was absurd in that reference.

I was not going to mention this equation again if Chaanakya did not want me to, but since he keeps bringing it back, let us keep the record strainght.
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Re: 2011 Japanese Earthquake and Tsunami - News and Analysis

Post by Amber G. »

amit wrote:Meanwhile, an update on the nuclear plant:

New cooling systems may be installed outside Fukushima reactor buildings
Amit et al:
Here is my take on the events to come. Some may be my guesses but most, I think, are consistent with what the experts are saying.

1. As said before (actually right in the beginning - see my posts then) It is a long term process. Chernobyl burqa took something like 8 months. Radiation has to subside, calculation have to be made, plans have to be checked and double checked etc.

2. Full (as much as full can be called) will take about 10-20 years. (See my post in the beginning again, or MITNSE type sites). This is the time frame to treat all the water , move all Cs, fuel rods, eent-pathar out, clean up soil etc, and burry it all. Expensive process, but nothing unexpected, even scheduled retiring of NPP, one has to do that.

3. 3 Months period - hope fully (actually there are positive indications that the time frame is ok) cooling pumps etc are restored, and normal "cold shutdown" condition is reached.

4. By this time, the decay heat would have fallen enough (according to best available data) and stable condition would have reached. This means - water temp would be below 100C with normal/stable cooling.

5. At this time, perhaps, containers would be examined and any leaks would be sealed to keep the inside inside. Next 5-6 months all reactors may be flooded in water by erecting swimming pool type walls or make the whole part an artificial lake (There are some concerns, - earth-quakes related - to make sure the walls would be okay).
- This is perhaps better deal than concrete burqa.

6. Radiation level will be closely monitored. Things will settle down in next 3 months or so.

7. Iodine half life is small, so 3 months will reduce the quantity by a factor or 1000x. Cs has relatively short biological half life (month or so) so
food etc would be monitored. Soil may need to be cleaned up etc. But this can be done at its own pace.

... Just some points...Take it for whatever it's worth :)
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