Bharat Rakshak

Jhujar wrote:This is all left of the pool at Katasraj

Shiva the destroyer through his third eye is ever watchful of what the pakis are doing to that sacred land. By destroying Shiva's Katasraj (where one of his teardrop fell after his wife died), the pakis have only this to look forward to:

BEFORE:

Jhujar wrote:AFTER:

I have been trying to look for information on Punjabi culture in Pakistan. Of course I have a reasonably good idea of what Punjabi culture is like, but I was looking for specific information about Pakistani Punjabis, or Pakjabis. Why? because I want to see how much Punjabi culture as followed in Pakistan fits in with the culture of the Taliban that Pakistanis promoted with such enthusiasm.

And guess what? Whenever I find a Pakistani reference the information is all about India AND Pakistan and how Punjab has cultural traditions from "Vedic" times? heck how come these Pure Pakhi mussalmaans of Pakistani Punjab take so much pride in being connected to the kafir bloody Vedas? Clearly, the culture of Pakistani Punjabis is not too much different from standard Punjabi culture with an coating of Islam. The marriages have a "Nikah" ceremony over and above the other music, dance and festivities. Punjabi music and dance and Punjabi women's dresses are all the same.

Now someone please tell me how much the Quran, Hadiths and the prophet himself (Peace Be Upon Us) approve of Punjabi culture?

It seems to me that Pakistanis, dominated by Pakjabis, have claimed the very very Indic culture of Punjab as their own even while hating India. They have been claiming Punjabi culture as some sort of indigenous Pakistani development with Sikhs and Hindus as "also rans". But the expanding influence of Wahhabandism in Pakistan does not seem to like Punjabi culture much. Punjabis, without Punjabi culture are zeros. They are nothing. As it is Pakistani Punjbis shifted to Urdu, and the new Wahhabism is not going to encourage Punjabi culture.

How are Pakjabis going to respond? Are they going to bow their heads and become Arabs in the way they embraced Islam while keeping Punjabi culture. Will they now spit out that culture and become Arabs? Shameless, spineless people, the Punjabis of Pakistan. If you keep searching the net, Pakistani Punjabis talk about Punjabi culture in the UK and in "foreign countries". But in Pakistani Punjab - the cowards are covering their asses and running in the face of Islam and the Taliban. Every ref you read otherwise speaks of how women are increasingly separated and covered up while music and dance that looks Indian is frowned upon.

When an Indian Punjabi mixes with these people, what is he getting? Or are Pakistani Punjabis looking to be rescued from the religion of dreary desertism? Exactly what is the dynamic that is playing out?

Take a look at this frigging site about "Punjabis."
http://www.findpk.com/culture/html/peop ... njab_.html

There is a Shitistan flag flluttering at the top of the page. And the list of Punjabis on that page is:

• Allama Iqballs
  Nawaz Sharif
  Bhagat Singh
  Liaqat Ali Khan
  Wasim Akram
  Manmohan Singh
  Amir Khan
  The Great Khali
  Hritik Roshan
  Kalpana Chawla

I mean its shameful that Indian Punjabis have allowed their own rich culture to slip out and be claimed by these dung filled frauds. They have given up the Punjabi language for Urdu, and are in the process of killing Punjabi culture even as they claim great prominence as being "tall, fair, handsome, Indo Aryan" and associated with prominent Punjabis from India.

I think that the Punjab connection has been the most difficult and vexed part of Pakistan - the part that allowed the equal-equal - IndiaPakistaaan. It is high time the so called Punjabis of Pakistan are shown their place and reminded that they are frauds, and cowards ass lickers trying to live off the reflected glory of Araps as well as Indians. They own the Taliban. they can keep them. But I think this continuous association of Indian culture with desert culture is worse for India. We have given Pakjabis a cultural walkover.

I just wonder how many last minute conversions there were in the immediate pre-partition and post partition period that helped maintain the privileges of land ownership? The Punjabis who converted were surely the most vociferous supporters of Pakistan and Islam in public, but were followers of "syncretic" Punjabi culture otherwise. That is what allowed intermingling of Hindu/Sikhs and Punjabi converts. I recall reading that Sikhs will not eat/are not supposed to eat halal meat (*). I don't know how far that is true, but this problem was resolved culturally because Sikh food in Gurudwara functions was vegetarian.

The people who ventured out of their "Homeland" were hurt most., i.e. people living around Rawalpindi were among Pathans (Punjabis vs Pathans). Rawalpindi riots started in February - March of 1947 and continued till August-September. Then Bahawalpur (southern) was a separate state whom Nawab declared Massacre against non-muslims and even used Baluchi soldiers to loot them., many people saved themselves by converting.

Villages around Lahore/Sialkote/Lyallpur/Sargodha/Gujranwala were/are of the people who were of essentially same families (not anymore due to inbreeding). i.e.

for example a person living at Amritsar converted during Aurungzeb rule to get a "Jagir" for his economic betterment., let's say his last name was Sethi. He maintained his "Biradari" relations as his elders gave him rights to the property (land/house/etc)., and so did his successive generations. He helped his both muslims and non-muslim family so that they became a "land owning Jagirdars". During partition the muslim part of this family was most likely helped by their "Biradari" to cross the border and they probably took over the land/house/cattle/etc that was left behind.

Regarding Jhatka meat!! Beef eating phenomenon is a very recent one in naPakistan. Earlier Muslims never ate Beef!! Sahib Singh Bhangi (who was ruling Lahore) had enforced a writ that a person caught with Beef would be executed and he executed many. Ranjit Singh also enforced this rule. , Baba Ram Singh Namdhari (1850s) actually murdered any Muslim butcher who was accused of selling beef anywhere in Punjab (Lahore to Patiala at that time)., he was executed for that.

Jats have very unique customs

1. Worship of their ancestors (Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus all used to do this) Samadhi or Kabr.

2. Drinking home brewed alcohol (not sure whether Muslims still do it) but Making alcohol out of Sugarcane is a custom much older than Sikhism (Guru Gobind singh forbade Sikhs to drink alcohol)

3. When a very old person passes away we celebrate his long life., it is called "Ekath" or "gathering". It is a bigger ceremony than a marriage and with much larger gathering. With music, alcohol and Goat meat (Bakra). Any Happy Jat ceremony is not complete without Bakra(Male Goat Meat) and Alcohol. Muslim Jats would usually give away "alive Goats" along with dry rations to their Sikh/Hindu Biradari.

The vegetarian langar is a recent phenomenon as earlier Jhatka Goat Meat was served (and it still is served at Nanded (Maharashtra) and Patna (Bihar)) calling it "Maha Prasad" .

Muslims Jats/Khatris/Rajputs/Arains/Ghakkars/Awans/Gujjars are actually defeated people who needs to be told that again and again.

Muslim Punjabis have never ruled any land and were given power by Mughals and Afghanis only after they converted. They didn't even wanted Pakistan but UPites got them the Pakistan and now they happily baking/selling breads and ruling a country that gives them free money from around the world.

Sir Chotu Ram and Khizr Hayat Tiwana were the two most prominent active Jats with power in this region (Delhi to Peshawar).

That is a valuable and informative post Sandeep. Clearly there have been close ties in the past and a degree of sentiment and closenes is understandable.

But I think it is high time we "fought bac" culturally and pointed out the bullshit that pakjabis refer to to hide their murderous Islamic root by claiming a connection of old Indian Punjabi culture. I think the Taliban are offering them a good choice though. They asked for it. After all, Islam was what they wanted when they spent years hating India. They can have it in full measure. But they should stop claiming Punjabi culture. Punjabi culture is not Islam.

Roperia wrote:Pakistan suicide attack kills 16: Officials

KHAR, Pakistan: A suicide attack targeting police killed at least 16 people, including five policemen, in Pakistan's northwestern tribal belt ...

Yet another Mohammadden Sabbath of Friday seeing yet another suicide bombing or in this forums parlance a demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan.

I am unable to understand how a country like Pakistan that loudly proclaims that Mohammaddenism is a “Religion of Peace” and one presumably qualified to do so given that it is an ” Islamic Republic”, a “Citadel of Islam”, a “Safe Haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent” and an “Ideological Muslim State” sees regular bouts of Mohammaddens slaughtering each other on their Sabbath and expects Non-Mohammaddens to accept that theirs is a Religion of Peace .

Meanwhile AFP via NDTV is reporting the death toll had climbed to 24:

Teenage Taliban bomber kills 24 in Pakistan

shiv wrote: Problem is I have also read about Sikhs and Hindus who helped and protected Muslims at partition and one or two similar stories from Pakistan. In fact I have often stated that the intense "hatred" for Pakistan was less evident in the South until the last 20 years when terrorism from Pakistan really hit home. Now most Indians don't give a rat's ass for Pakis. But that hasn't changed a thing for a community of people who seem to have links on the other side.

That community exists and is not going away. How large is it? Are they traitors? Or are they "usable" in any way? If so how can they be used?

Nupur Talwar is hogging all the media light for one week, does she represent normal Indian mother. You are talking about something you know S**t about!

arun wrote:
Yet another Mohammadden Sabbath of Friday seeing yet another suicide bombing or in this forums parlance a demonstration of the IED Mubarak variant of the IEDology of Pakistan.

I am unable to understand how a country like Pakistan that loudly proclaims that Mohammaddenism is a “Religion of Peace” and one presumably qualified to do so given that it is an ” Islamic Republic”, a “Citadel of Islam”, a “Safe Haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent” and an “Ideological Muslim State” sees regular bouts of Mohammaddens slaughtering each other on their Sabbath and expects Non-Mohammaddens to accept that theirs is a Religion of Peace .

Meanwhile AFP via NDTV is reporting the death toll had climbed to 24:

Teenage Taliban bomber kills 24 in Pakistan

A lot of BRFites may enjoy this article by Yoginder Sikand. It is likely to look great on some other thread too but I start here

Why I gave up on Social Activism

Negativism, then, was a defining feature of being 'progressive', and that's what I began to revel in. But such negativism was almost entirely one-sided in 'activist' circles, for to be counted as a 'real' 'social activist' it was simply unthinkable that the 'oppressed' could be faulted for almost anything at all. For a 'social activist' to even mention, leave alone condemn, the foibles of the 'oppressed communities'--gender injustice or caste rivalries among Dalits or the obscurantism and misogyny preached in many Muslim madrasas or the terror attacks and killings of innocents by Naxalites and radical Islamists--was tantamount to nothing less than treason. Reports about such matters were generally dismissed as 'malicious ruling-class propaganda' or 'malicious Brahminical brainwashing' or even as an 'understandable reaction of vulnerable minority communities to ruling caste/class/imperialist oppression'. Sometimes, if these were grudgingly admitted to be true, they were sought to be passed over in silence in order to 'respect the sensibilities of the oppressed' or as 'minor contradictions' that ought not to be addressed on the grounds that it would allegedly 'divide' the oppressed, 'sabotage' the struggle against 'oppression' and thereby 'play into the hands of the real opressors'. If you only just pointed out that there were serious faults in the madrasas that needed to be urgently addressed (even for the sake of the Muslim children who studied therein) or that Muslim Personal Law was seriously biased against Muslim women or that many Dalits who had taken advantage of the system of protective discrimination behaved with fellow Dalits almost as shabbily as did their 'upper' caste Hindu 'oppressors', you were sure to be shouted down as a 'government agent' or a 'paid stooge of Hindutva forces', not only by fellow 'progressives' but also by a whole host of voices among the communities whom you had spent years trying to defend and promote. If you even so much as mildly hinted that the conditions of Muslims in India weren't half as bad as sections of the Urdu media wanted people to believe or that the Muslims in this country had much more freedom than in any Muslim-majority state or that untouchability was no longer as rampant as it once was in some parts, you were bound to be accused of betrayal and your motives were rumoured to be entirely suspect. If you acknowledged that probably less Muslims were killed by Hindus in riots in India every year than the number of fellow Muslims slaughtered by their co-religionists in the 'Islamic' Republic of Pakistan or in God-forsaken Afghanistan or that the plight of religious minorities in many Muslim countries, particularly those ruled by theocratic regimes, was much worse than in India or that some Dalit officials were neck-deep in corruption, you were bound to be hollered at for allegedly being a 'traitor' to 'The Cause' of the 'oppressed'. (+1 ) The very same folks who egged you on to write about their problems and to take the Hindutva beast by its horns (for they were either too scared to do it themselves or didn't have the same writing skills or the same access to the English media) would shrilly denounce you as an 'agent' of this or the other 'power' if, in your quest to be honest and balanced, you pointed out even some of the mildest of their faults. It was as if by definition the 'oppressed' were spotless angels who could do no wrong and their 'oppressors' wholly and incorrigibly demonic.

vic wrote:

shiv wrote: Problem is I have also read about Sikhs and Hindus who helped and protected Muslims at partition and one or two similar stories from Pakistan. In fact I have often stated that the intense "hatred" for Pakistan was less evident in the South until the last 20 years when terrorism from Pakistan really hit home. Now most Indians don't give a rat's ass for Pakis. But that hasn't changed a thing for a community of people who seem to have links on the other side.

That community exists and is not going away. How large is it? Are they traitors? Or are they "usable" in any way? If so how can they be used?

Nupur Talwar is hogging all the media light for one week, does she represent normal Indian mother. You are talking about something you know S**t about!

vicji - I never claimed to either know a lot or talk about what I know. I would like to learn and would like coherent answers to my questions, and it seems you know crap yourself because you are unable to reveal that you know anything more than saying that I know S**t.

I don't think you can teach me because you don't know yourself. Any ignorant person can claim that the other person knows nothing, but it is another thing altogether to know something and say it. In that department you are an epic fail yourself although your ability to rant is above average. If you can teach me - vomit it out pronto and I will learn. Or else be ready to have your ignorance laid bare along with mine. Merely saying that I know S**t is no great acheivement. Every mullah tells his madarsa students the same thing as an excuse before beating or buggering him. No big deal in your words.

vic wrote:

shiv wrote: Problem is I have also read about Sikhs and Hindus who helped and protected Muslims at partition and one or two similar stories from Pakistan. In fact I have often stated that the intense "hatred" for Pakistan was less evident in the South until the last 20 years when terrorism from Pakistan really hit home. Now most Indians don't give a rat's ass for Pakis. But that hasn't changed a thing for a community of people who seem to have links on the other side.

That community exists and is not going away. How large is it? Are they traitors? Or are they "usable" in any way? If so how can they be used?

Nupur Talwar is hogging all the media light for one week, does she represent normal Indian mother. You are talking about something you know S**t about!

What was that comment , totally unrelated to the quote. Did you lose perspective?? Recover your balance please.

Claiming that there is (large?) body of Indian Punjus who love Pakistan is your pet obessession which cannot be cured. Random examples do not prove any large scale movement in Northern India to love Pakistani chutiaas. In any case, Aman ki aasha Toilet is in Mumbai not Amritsar. Don't Blame the Mulla if you have been buggered at home

Sandeep, Shiv et al, is it possible that the newly converts to Islam under duress during the partition and immediately after partition are the ones who hate the Hindus/Sikhs (the faiths they converted from) the most? There is a saying amongst us UP-wallahs that the new Muslim shouts Allah's name the loudest. What is the reason for this targeted hate? Is the hate faith-imposed (prove your allegiance or else) or is it based on a "sense of betrayal" the new convert felt that he was not protected by his original faith? Remember that in the early days of Qasim (pbuh), converts to Islam under duress promptly returned to the faiths of their forefathers when the arabs left.

Sandeep, Shiv et al, is it possible that the newly converts to Islam under duress during the partition and immediately after partition are the ones who hate the Hindus/Sikhs (the faiths they converted from) the most?

Look in the context of the time. You would be declared a Muslim if you

1. Accidentally drank water from a Muslim pot.
2. Want to eat meat and Ate beef one time.
3. Wanted to write urdu poetry which was the realm of Muslims.
4. Had a Muslim girlfriend and slept with one.

and so forth. The reason that people started hating the people of their former religion was that they had no choice but to increase their population (through more conversion or coercion) so that to build some social cushion around them.

All rioters had to do in 1947 was to round them up in a local mosque and force them to eat beef (a Brahmin who has never touched meat his whole life when forced to eat meat will think of himself as "Defiled" and not fit for his former group, he has a new birth which is among muslim). An abducted women was the worst affected she had to somehow make her world among her rapists (imaging the social repercussions and her alienation among the other legitimate women in her new group, she got the lowest of the lowest hierarchy even lower than the muslim servant).

Earlier when one member of the family converted it was to raise his economic stature and help the whole extended family, in 1947 they had no choice as it was forced.

vic wrote:Claiming that there is (large?) body of Indian Punjus who love Pakistan is your pet obessession which cannot be cured. Random examples do not prove any large scale movement in Northern India to love Pakistani chutiaas. In any case, Aman ki aasha Toilet is in Mumbai not Amritsar. Don't Blame the Mulla if you have been buggered at home

Not sure why you worry about who might bugger me. I hope its not jealousy because I am not available to you. Tough luck on that count, but you don't even seem to understand what I write. I have never claimed that there is a large movement in North India to befriend Pakistan. Stop getting your chaddi in a twist sir. Your foaming at the mouth is not doing your viewpoint any good. You are saying that there is not much traction for friendship with Pakjabis in Punjab, but its in Mumbai?

Fair enough, that is an acceptable answer. I will keep that in mind.

SBajwa wrote:Muslims Jats/Khatris/Rajputs/Arains/Ghakkars/Awans/Gujjars are actually defeated people who needs to be told that again and again.

Muslim Punjabis have never ruled any land and were given power by Mughals and Afghanis only after they converted. They didn't even wanted Pakistan but UPites got them the Pakistan and now they happily baking/selling breads and ruling a country that gives them free money from around the world.

Sir Chotu Ram and Khizr Hayat Tiwana were the two most prominent active Jats with power in this region (Delhi to Peshawar).

One reference I have puts the castes you have mentioned at the top as about 40% in Pakjab. Low castes like Kammis and chuhras make up about 25%. Many of the latter are bonded laborers and very poor apart from the Hindus who still live there.

I may be mistaken, but it seems tome that the upper caste converts like Jats/rajputs and the Arab high caste like Arain and Syed were the landowners who were perfectly happy to retain Punjabi culture and claiming to be pure Muslims who hated Hindus and Sikhs even as they continued the caste system in Pakistan.

With the dominance of Pakjab among Pakis, Punjabi culture came to be synonymous with "Pakistani culture" and was portrayed as moderate, pluralist and fun-loving. What is happening in Pakistan today is an overgrowth of the low caste population and a struggle to get rights and earn a living. This is happening via Islamic groups. But those Islamic groups are opposed to the "Punjabi" culture that the landed Pakis are following, making the rich RAPE Pakis complain about "extremism". At least that is what I think and need to find out. People like nawaz Sharif seem to be playing the game both ways - supporting the islamists while claiming Punjabi culture simultaneously.

I am not sure how, if at all India can make use of this situation. As far as my view goes, I think we will have to have some game plan about whom to support an what the future will mean for people just across the border in India. Punjabi culture in Pakistan is dying, under assault from Islam. But that does not mean that indians should not have a lasting interest in historic sites across the border. If bhaichara is going to help in some way I would support it, but I would like to know what would be achieved by such bhaichara.

I see a lot of gaping holes in my story above. There is much detail that is missing.

anupmisra wrote:Sandeep, Shiv et al, is it possible that the newly converts to Islam under duress during the partition and immediately after partition are the ones who hate the Hindus/Sikhs (the faiths they converted from) the most? There is a saying amongst us UP-wallahs that the new Muslim shouts Allah's name the loudest. What is the reason for this targeted hate? Is the hate faith-imposed (prove your allegiance or else) or is it based on a "sense of betrayal" the new convert felt that he was not protected by his original faith? Remember that in the early days of Qasim (pbuh), converts to Islam under duress promptly returned to the faiths of their forefathers when the arabs left.

i think all Pakis had to hate Indians - so there is no doubt on that account, but it is the Islamic bullshitting about "egalitarianism"while maintaining caste hierarchies and the Pakjabi bullshitting about being Muslim and moderate that is coming back to bite Pakistan. in any case I have just had a sudden thought. I will move my attention to the Pakhtuns next because part of the "islamic fundamentalism" problem that Pakjab faces is "normal day to day life" in NWFP. Pakistan's "moderation" was merely the Pakjabis bullshitting while they shat on lower castes and ignored the taliban like life of NWFP and in fact encouraged it for money paid by the US.

common indians have no use for TSP and dont care for any of its culture. if it vanishes tomorrow, well so be it, nobody gives a rats behind. the groups in india who might be interested are:
1. political lobbies as a way to curry favour with pakpasand sections of mullahs and common oil droplets/ashrafi types
2. commodity traders who see profits in exploiting their relatively unsophisticated economy using short lines of transport and better sourcing from here
3. random JNU/Jor bagh internationalist types who interact with the top 5% of paki elites in x-border aman ki tamasha tours and wax eloquent about meena bazaars and kakori kebabs...this lot is insulated from the harsh realities both here and there and in any case have enough money & contacts to migrate to US/UK ... to join their kids already placed there.
4. poor but rigid leftie types for whom everyone but the govt or local culture/religion is a revolutionary comrade incl the most vile of islamists
5. random ITvity munna types mainly educated and living abroad in liberal arts / bay area/ NYC

this motley lot wont make up more than the population of a single metro among our 1.3 bil

^
+1

Singha wrote:common indians have no use for TSP and dont care for any of its culture. if it vanishes tomorrow, well so be it, nobody gives a rats behind. the groups in india who might be interested are:
1. political lobbies as a way to curry favour with pakpasand sections of mullahs and common oil droplets/ashrafi types
2. commodity traders who see profits in exploiting their relatively unsophisticated economy using short lines of transport and better sourcing from here
3. random JNU/Jor bagh internationalist types who interact with the top 5% of paki elites in x-border aman ki tamasha tours and wax eloquent about meena bazaars and kakori kebabs...this lot is insulated from the harsh realities both here and there and in any case have enough money & contacts to migrate to US/UK ... to join their kids already placed there.
4. poor but rigid leftie types for whom everyone but the govt or local culture/religion is a revolutionary comrade incl the most vile of islamists
5. random ITvity munna types mainly educated and living abroad in liberal arts / bay area/ NYC

this motley lot wont make up more than the population of a single metro among our 1.3 bil

Singha sir, Until recently (or even now) this motley lot was/is in the driver seat of Indian politics and media. That is where the danger lies, they can mold the opinion of the rest of 1.3 bil. However Docji's premise is not this. Docji's premise is to use the 'blindness' of Baki RAPEs who are insulated from their mango abdul (just like our DIE/WKKs are insulated from our aam admi) to our benefit. The blindness of DIE/WKKs in our country is carefully exploited by the Gora's and their a$$ lickers.

Any cognitive bias (or social 'blindness') in a society which has two (or more) sections "othering" the rest(or having no empathy for each other) lays itself bare for a psy-ops attack from outside. The beauty of this is, both the parties on either side of the bias will not realize that it is an attack from a third party and will infact support the attacking third party in anyway they can. This is because the involved parties on either side of the bias will trust a third party more than they trust each other. This is the root of divide and rule.

Indians have not used this against the Bakis, and we in BRF are falling to the same bias of "othering" the Bakis. Its fine to do that, but it simplifies the Baki problem, and leaves us AND the Bakis vulnerable to an attack from outside. We should instead focus on figuring out who has "othered" whom INSIDE $hitistan, and then use any leverage/psyops we can to make them annihilate each other or keep each other in check. Doing so would only benefit India.

As of now the situation is: Bakis have "othered" Indians, most Indians have "othered" the Bakis. Americans/UQstan/piddly-nations-of-no-consequence-in-oiropistan use this phenomena to run an attack on both the Bakis and us, keeping both of us in check. This is why every article written by a Gora (or a Gora a$$licker) ends with this

"India and Bakistan have fought 30000 wars together and share a border that is a nuclear flashpoint. India has occupied Cashmere that the Bakis lay claim to. The heavily militarized border has 5000000000000 armed men on Indian side and 3000000 on Baki side. Bakistan has responded asymetrically using tellolism. However there are tellolists on both sides of the border, tellolism knows no borders. "

* For those interested in the background piskology and associated brain science, the wiki has a pretty exhaustive list of cognitive biases that apply to a society as a whole (in other words, social biases) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ial_biases

Eric Margolis, Gwynne Dyer among journalists mentioned in al-Qaida documents found at bin Laden compound

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-p ... 32641.html

Lets hope a hashish fuelled Margolis s3x romp with Talib big Tanvir isn't found amongst OBL's stash of p0rn

Md. (Paki) teen pleads guilty to US terrorism charges in Pa. case involving plot vs. Swedish artist

PHILADELPHIA — A teen from Pakistan with a once-bright future in the U.S. pleaded guilty Friday to terrorism charges for helping an American woman dubbed “Jihad Jane” support an Irish terror cell planning to wage a Muslim holy war in Europe.

Mohammad Hassan Khalid had won a full scholarship to prestigious Johns Hopkins University before the FBI arrested him last summer at 17, making him the rare juvenile held in federal custody.

Pakistan army believes in 'strong democratic system and its continuation': Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani

"We think that others will have to keep in mind our sovereignty, pride and honour," he added.

Well even a prostitute is entitled to honor and pride unless paid for.

shiv wrote:
A lot of BRFites may enjoy this article by Yoginder Sikand. It is likely to look great on some other thread too but I start here

Why I gave up on Social Activism

Wow, this is quite an article from Sikand, who I always used to bracket with the roy, mishra, meera nanda types. I had noticed a change in him in the last year when I did read one of his articles and didn't find the same shrill hatred towards India, but this "coming to the senses" is quite welcome and unexpected. Explains what one always suspected about the suzanne roys and pankaj mishras.

chaanakya wrote:Pakistan army believes in 'strong democratic system and its continuation': Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani

"We think that others will have to keep in mind our sovereignty, pride and honour," he added.

Well even a prostitute is entitled to honor and pride unless paid for.

This is a warning to the Judiciary (which recently convicted Groper for contempt of court) to not upset the applecart. Probably negotiated Quid-Pro-Quo with Groper to support Groper in exchange for an extension.

SBajwa wrote:Muslims Jats/Khatris/Rajputs/Arains/Ghakkars/Awans/Gujjars are actually defeated people who needs to be told that again and again.

Muslim Punjabis have never ruled any land and were given power by Mughals and Afghanis only after they converted. They didn't even wanted Pakistan but UPites got them the Pakistan and now they happily baking/selling breads and ruling a country that gives them free money from around the world.

Sir Chotu Ram and Khizr Hayat Tiwana were the two most prominent active Jats with power in this region (Delhi to Peshawar).

Are there any cases of clans reverting back to their original religion?

anupmisra wrote:Sandeep, Shiv et al, is it possible that the newly converts to Islam under duress during the partition and immediately after partition are the ones who hate the Hindus/Sikhs (the faiths they converted from) the most? There is a saying amongst us UP-wallahs that the new Muslim shouts Allah's name the loudest. What is the reason for this targeted hate? Is the hate faith-imposed (prove your allegiance or else) or is it based on a "sense of betrayal" the new convert felt that he was not protected by his original faith? Remember that in the early days of Qasim (pbuh), converts to Islam under duress promptly returned to the faiths of their forefathers when the arabs left.

Also please note that once in, it is dangerous for the converted Muslim to get out as apostasy is punishable by death. Might as well embrace the new situation and "prove" one's piety like any new recruit for whom washout=death.

For those of you following the 4-way tourney held daily in Karachi -

• Bar Graph of killings (Jan1 to Aug27 2011)

• Map of Karachi shaded by # of killings - shows that violence isn't restricted to some parts of town

• Above map overlaid by ethnicity

Would be nice if someone could publish the same for 2012 as well.

Are there any cases of clans reverting back to their original religion?

Actually the whole clans didn't converted en masse! it was one or two few person (males) in a village/city to get economic advantage. When a person converted out of the religion they did what was called "Hukka Pani Band" i.e. "no food or water" and had to go stay at one corner of the village (or outside) So!

Among the Hindu/Sikh side the marriages inside the Clan are shunned while I think it is not among the muslim side (recent phenomenon), women of the whole village (upper/low) were thought of as

1. Elder women as "Maasi" i.e. "like mother" .
2. Bhain "Sister"

Marriages inside the clan (even today in Haryana couples get murdered for such thing) were totally avoided., which is not the case in Pakistan where marriages even among first cousins (on both sides) are allowed which is a blasphemy in India (apart from marriages among the same clan).

Among muslim and non-muslim families inside the clan
1. Invitations to marriage/death/etc ceremonies continued.
2. Cooked Food and water was not shared.

People started converting to Sikhism (muslims) from the very beginning., Bhai Mardana was a Muslim who became disciple of Guru Nanak and thus became one of the first convert to Sikhism. There are several such cases., but Sikhs do not actively convert people (like Christianity or Islam)

Poaqpattar by Poaqputtar on Djinna's Pakhanakhana
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... chinations

I refer to SM Hali’s article “Logic of the Two-Nation Theory” published in the Nation of 18 April 2012. He has mentioned of an American writer Wolpert who is well conversant with the pre-partition leaders of India. Mr. Hali, under the above caption, has rightly quoted that the Hindus had opposed the Partition of the sub-continent considering it to be the desecration of Mother India. Mr. Hali’s reference to the Indian Muslims inside the Central India in those days was a matter of lethargy to leave settled homes or lack of enthusiasm to move lock, stock and barrel. The story of NWFP is different; they wanted to remain independent. Quaid-i-Azam’s foresight and vision proved correct as the Muslims who stayed back in India today are indeed worse than even the lowest caste Hindus known as Dalits. If now the Hindus want the Indian Muslims to leave the present India or be converted to Hinduism, it is too late. At the time of dependence, the Muslims left in India were as big in number as they were in Pakistan. With the passage of time the Indian Muslims should have formed yet another community in order to strengthen their belief in the idea of Pakistan. They remained inactive and passive. Rather, India became busy in breaking the rest of Pakistan; we kept playing in the hands of Indian conspirators. It is still India which is working on its formula of 1947 – to break Pakistan into pieces. The irony of the fate is that our rulers are also helping them (India) to do it.

BRIG ® Al.Qooin Jahanum

Sushupti wrote:Eric Margolis, Gwynne Dyer among journalists mentioned in al-Qaida documents found at bin Laden compound

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-p ... 32641.html

That Margolis is a Taliban apologist and considered friendly by al Qaeda should be repeated in public as often as possible.

Video India-Pakistan: Business unusual

This is an important program to watch.

Even though TTP claims every attack it does, a truck driver from Wajiristan is convinced that India is behind all the attacks in Pakistan. He says he believes so because his government says there are teams of Indians operating in Pakistan.

On the Indian side, MMS and WKKs have opened the new check post even before getting a scanner to see what is inside the trucks that are passing through. The reporter says this is supposedly India's plan to show our large heartedness to Pakjabis.

The trust but verify claims on media by ex-diplomats are nothing but rhetoric. In reality, MMS has thrown open the gates and is counting on Pakjabis to reciprocate his goodwill.

Singha wrote:common indians have no use for TSP and dont care for any of its culture. if it vanishes tomorrow, well so be it, nobody gives a rats behind. the groups in india who might be interested are:
1. political lobbies as a way to curry favour with pakpasand sections of mullahs and common oil droplets/ashrafi types
2. commodity traders who see profits in exploiting their relatively unsophisticated economy using short lines of transport and better sourcing from here
3. random JNU/Jor bagh internationalist types who interact with the top 5% of paki elites in x-border aman ki tamasha tours and wax eloquent about meena bazaars and kakori kebabs...this lot is insulated from the harsh realities both here and there and in any case have enough money & contacts to migrate to US/UK ... to join their kids already placed there.
4. poor but rigid leftie types for whom everyone but the govt or local culture/religion is a revolutionary comrade incl the most vile of islamists
5. random ITvity munna types mainly educated and living abroad in liberal arts / bay area/ NYC

this motley lot wont make up more than the population of a single metro among our 1.3 bil

I think Bollywood and the thousands of people who make a living out of Bollywood do "cater to" Pakistan and therefore ensure that the Pakistani is not totally upset. A few here and a few there and few somewhere else gradually start adding up to a significant body of support. Hatred for Pakistan has not come "naturally" for Indians the way hatred for India was natural for Pakistan. Pakistan had to work hard and earn the loathing of a large proportion of Indians. At best a lot of Indians, except for those who experienced the murders of partition did not care for Pakistan in the 50s and 60s. Pakistan forced itself into Indian consciousness in the 80s and 90s and had the effect of opening millions of Indian eyes, or else I suspect the constituency for friendship would be much larger. But that is hypothetical. I do agree that a very large number of Indians don't give a damn for Pakistan right now.

But I am looking at the medium to long term future. As I see it the possibility may arise that India might need to maintain some sort of relationship with some groups in Pakistan. This depends on the true nature of the Pakistan disease. If the Pakistan disease is merely one of a Pakistan united by Islam that uniformly hates India, we cannot hope to gain anything by any relationship other than hating them right back. This is the "traditional relationship" that we are accustomed to recognizing.

But if you look at Pakistan as a socially failed country where the wealthy, landed upper caste have cornered all the opportunities and wealth and have not even bothered to enumerate or acknowledge the illiterate and jobless lower castes, we are looking at a Pakistan that will undergo, or is undergoing a social revolution. I think that social revolution has started. The education that the lower castes in Pakistan wanted for their children is coming via madrassas set up by groups like the Jamaat ud Dawa. There are plenty of reports of thousands of new Deobandi madarsas in Pakjb and other parts of Pakistan. As someone pointed out Qasab, and even Qadri are the new graduates of Pakistani education. You can be sure that neither Qasab nor Qadri are Jats, Rajputs, Arains or Syeds. They are from the lower castes of Pakistan, people who have never owned land or been able to afford an education and have been kept that way by the Syeds, jats and other islamic upper castes.

To some extent Pakistan might be having an internal caste war. Of course that internal caste war was possible in any era - but the privileged upper castes kept the lower castes busy by telling them that India had to be defeated. But the time for that might have passed - the excuse has worn thin. Low caste populations have burgeoned and the Pakistani state has not kept pace. They have merely allowed Wahhabi ideology to seep in and set up shop in the NWFP as part of the cold war, and those madrasas and training camps helped train jobless Pakjabi (low caste?) youth to fight India.

if Pakistan is in the middle of a social/caste revolution where the revolutionary low caste forces led by Islamists hate india as well as the landed Paki upper castes, then what is the likely future? What will the upper castes of Pakistan do? Some will certainly retreat to the west, but they will lose their lands. Will Paki upper castes look towards India for help? What help will they want? What help can we give and what can we extract in return? Ultimately india must benefit in terms of long term peace and only Indian hegemony has the unparalleled record of fostering peace and internal harmony.

I think these are questions that we need to keep at the back of our minds before we sit back and think we have all the answers to all questions about Pakistan.

Massa ka Khansa no Jhanassa

US drone attack kills eight in NWA

MIRAMSHAH: At least eight persons were killed and several others injured when a US drone attacked a house in North Waziristan Agency on early Saturday morning, Geo News reported.

Roperia wrote: Even though TTP claims every attack it does, a truck driver from Wajiristan is convinced that India is behind all the attacks in Pakistan. He says he believes so because his government says there are teams of Indians operating in Pakistan.

I have not watched the video but the Paki security forces clearly have a motive for blaming India. I suspect there is a serious morale/motivation problem because they have to fight fellow Muslims. It gets easier if they are told that they are fighting kafirs. In a sense this may be an indicator of a morale issue. When they find TTP bodies of bearded men with forehead gattas from bowing towards Saudi Arabia every man will know that this is no kafir. So the lies and denial have to be maintained at least for those who are not in the thick of battle.

Rhetorical question: If a Pakistani landlord owns 1000 acres of land with 2 villages in that land and he does not allow census workers to go and poll and count the people in those villages, what sort of census can you have?

I would like to know how much access Paki census workers got into private land in Pakistan, and how much access they got into the remote villages of the NWFP. even the estimate of 180-190 million Pakis may be an under estimate.

by Shiv
Rhetorical question: If a Pakistani landlord owns 1000 acres of land with 2 villages in that land and he does not allow census workers to go and poll and count the people in those villages, what sort of census can you have?

I would like to know how much access Paki census workers got into private land in Pakistan, and how much access they got into the remote villages of the NWFP. even the estimate of 180-190 million Pakis may be an under estimate.

Do you really believe that a Pakistani landlord will allow any type of census in his land? He is absolute master and he rules his land with absolute force that includes murders, rapes, abductions, conversions (to what ever branch of islam he wants), etc.

The people who cultivate his land are called "Mujare" (punjabi for peasents who don't own land and work on others) and they own 1/3 of the crops (if he wants).

Mujare are mostly poorest of the poor unskilled illiterate who only want to get food 2 times a day and shelter for their women.

shiv saar,

Actually there may be some scope that inner-caste bonds between the two Punjabs could help in securing some sort of change in the way of thinking in Pakistan.

However there are some factors in play

• The 'upper' castes in Pakjab - Rajputs, Jatts, Gujars, may be just too rich considering that among themselves they own all the land. These may be richer in Pakjab than their counterparts in India, who may be either businessmen or smaller agriculturalists. As such the Indian side may not be able to impress them and thus impact them.
• The 'lower' castes in Pakjab - Tobis, Darzis, Mauchis, etc. may be just too poor in Pakjab. Their counterparts in India may not have the economic and political power to reach out to them over there in Pakjab. They may not be that much into caste-chauvinism, that they would feel like reaching out to those on the Pakjab side.
• The 'upper' castes in Pakjab may be under pressure from these Islamist networks to show a more pious attitude. These may be under pressure to show their patriotism towards Pakistan.
• The 'lower' castes in Pakjab may be too much under the influence of Mullahs through their Dawas and Madrassa networks, considering that these networks have expanded into rural areas as well. So these people may be overly islamized.

That is probably the reason the Punjabi castes may not be able to make much headway in toning down the anti-Indian rhetoric in Pakjab. It is only a 'Aman ka Tamasha' between a few individuals.