Bharat Rakshak

g.sarkar wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/world ... &ref=world
Clinton’s ‘Sorry’ to Pakistan Ends Barrier to NATO
"WASHINGTON — Pakistan told the United States that it would reopen NATO’s supply routes into neighboring Afghanistan after Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said she was sorry for the deaths of two dozen Pakistani soldiers in American airstrikes in November, officials from the two countries said Tuesday......
In the end, Pakistan agreed to keep the fee at the current rate, $250. In return, the administration will ask Congress to reimburse Pakistan about $1.2 billion for costs incurred by 150,000 Pakistani troops carrying out counterinsurgency operations along the border with Afghanistan, a senior American official said.....
Pakistani officials said they had misjudged NATO’s ability to adapt to the closing and use an alternative route through Central Asia. That rerouting carried a high price: Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta said it was costing up to an extra $100 million a month.
Last weekend, Mrs. Clinton telephoned her congratulations to Pakistan’s new prime minister, Raja Pervez Ashraf. But it was Mrs. Clinton’s increasingly cordial relationship with the young Pakistani foreign minister, Ms. Khar, 34, that paid dividends in resolving the dispute, American officials said....."
Gautam
PS The comments are interesting.

ArunK wrote: Trust me, when I tell you this that I have always realized the difference between what we want to or wish we could do vs what we can actually do. I also fully realize how the US got to where it is today and what its current situation is like.

Having said that, let me just say this -- while it gives us a lot of satisfaction to watch the US squirm and a whole lot of arrogant policy gurus get humiliated -- well deserved I might add -- one must not lose sight of the fact that the Mango Americans are fiercely patriotic. They will all stand *solidly* behind their armed forces. If this war becomes an existential struggle for the US army, expect them remove all stops and fight their way out.

Anujan wrote:Today, in 1999 we captured tiger hill after kicking some paki Musharraf.

Anujan wrote:Today, in 1999 we captured tiger hill after kicking some paki Musharraf.

Acharya wrote:Chinese trained Lashkar militants against India: Jundal
Zee News - ‎18 hours ago‎
According to sources, Jundal told the Special Cell of Delhi Police during interrogation that the Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) has brought in an ace Chinese para-glider to northern Pakistan where he has been training militants in paragliding for the past two years...

Neela wrote:

shiv wrote: On BRF we laugh at Indians for throwing dossiers at Pakistan. But yet we have one person defending American actions today saying that America will apply great pressure on Pakistan but will not declare it a terrorist state because the threat is worse than the action. Isn't that really funny? When America does something weak and wimpy we have people talk as if it is fantastic. But India is declared the joke state for doing exactly the same impotent things. And Indians are saying this all the time. The younger generation has started where the older generation left off.

But Shiv-ji, America has more than one leverage over Pakistan. It can run the Paki economy to the ground and it can bomb it to the stone age. It HAS the options. And it has threatened to use them. It has not because it needs supply routes for its troops to Afghanistan.
Are you willing to state that Americans will continue to be weak and wimpy after 2014? Will there be more funds approved for TSP in US senate after this time?

Contrast that to India- What options have Indians cultivated? Cancel Aman-is-keeping-Asha? Or are you saying throwing dossiers takes more courage?
IN the news today, you have a Paki minister meeting Kashmiri separatist leaders BEFORE meeting his Indian counterpart - that IMO shows the disdain and contempt that comes from resolve. Will ANYONE in GoI meet Baloch leaders?

shiv wrote:

Neela wrote: But Shiv-ji, America has more than one leverage over Pakistan. It can run the Paki economy to the ground and it can bomb it to the stone age. It HAS the options.
<snip>
Contrast that to India- What options have Indians cultivated?

What the US has done is to act as if they have options when those options do not really exist. All this bombing-shombing stuff is hot air. After 11 years they are grinding their teeth in frustration but we have hordes of people imagining that they can win that way. They have already lost.

But that is a different topic that I will be happy to discuss in much grater detail on the original thread if you choose to cross post you opinion there. The only thing relevant to this thread is that Indians think Indian actions are weak whether they are or are not weak and they think US actions are strong when they are not.

Suppiah wrote:Doc ji perhaps its time for us to play Pak card on unkil...we have no issues with mard e momin hitting unkil...

Neela wrote:As for military actions, the US has gone into Pakistan - into Abbotabad. They are using drones day in a day out inside Paki territory. It has killed ore than 2000+ people in Pakistan.
It is an undeclared war onlee.

Neela wrote: But Shiv-ji, America has more than one leverage over Pakistan. It can run the Paki economy to the ground and it can bomb it to the stone age. It HAS the options.

Neela wrote:Will you say the same after 2014 when Americans start to pull out? On what grounds will the POTUS go the senate and request approval of aid to TSP?

Neela wrote:The Americans are not squeezing harder because TSP route cutoff is costing $100 million a month (Leon Pannetta).

So the threat of financial support and military has already been carried out by the US. They have shown the resolve. And once their liabilities decrease, they will exact revenge.

And like I said earlier, one no-name minister is showing India his finger and meeting separatist leaders before starting his official itinerary in India. We are scared to even say the word Balochistan inside Paki terrritory.

shiv wrote: What good are options that are not used? Please pardon my use of a vulgar analogy, but I have often claimed that I have the capability and option to take Angelina Jolie any time. But why have I not done it? You see, it's not as if Pakistan has cooperated with the US. The US is incapable of using its power on Pakistan. That power is hot air. Please come and tell me after the US uses its power that I am wrong - but I have waited 11 years to see if it happens and I wonder exactly who is the naive person here. Me? or the people who think the US can use all that power?

When Pakistanis have been killing Indians for 65 years - let alone the west we have Indians who have not taken the threat seriously. Up until the immediate post 9-11 action we had Indians who believed that the taliban/Paki terorism problem would be solved in an instant by America, there is a deep belief among Indians that chronic problems are Indian because others solve their problems quickly. People are now finding it difficult to digest the fact that the USA is failing exactly where India failed. they are trying to explain this by saying that the Taliban is a bigger problem than Pakistan.

On BRF we laugh at Indians for throwing dossiers at Pakistan. But yet we have one person defending American actions today saying that America will apply great pressure on Pakistan but will not declare it a terrorist state because the threat is worse than the action. Isn't that really funny? When America does something weak and wimpy we have people talk as if it is fantastic. But India is declared the joke state for doing exactly the same impotent things. And Indians are saying this all the time. The younger generation has started where the older generation left off.

shiv wrote:
But Shiv-ji, America has more than one leverage over Pakistan. It can run the Paki economy to the ground and it can bomb it to the stone age. It HAS the options.

What good are options that are not used?
The US is incapable of using its power on Pakistan. That power is hot air.

Sorry Neelaji. These are just feeble excuses for an America that cannot do what it is claimed to be capable of doing. American capability against Pakistan is a myth that is kept going by people with fond hopes.

pentaiah wrote:During and immediately after 911 John McCain was asked about TSP role and why not go after it
The answer was TS Pakistan was the only game in town

Also notice how s!.t scared unkil is of TSP nukes
and in turn NPA ayatollahs are let lose on India to get scared of TSP

Good ties with Pakistan in US interest: McCain

WASHINGTON: Emphas-ising Pakistan’s importance to US security interests in the region, Senator John McCain has said it is in the United States’ interest to have good relations with Pakistan. “Pakistan is vital to US national security interests for a broad variety of reasons, including the nuclear inventory that Pakistan has, including the fact that Pakistan’s role in the region is vital, not to mention relations with India,” the former Republican presidential candidate said at a Washington think-tank. McCain said America’s mistake in breaking military relations with Pakistan in the 1990s still continues to impact their bilateral ties. “One of the gravest mistakes in recent history was the so-called Pressler Amendment, which basically cut off our military-to-military relations, and we are paying, still paying a very heavy price for.” The seasoned lawmaker opposed the notion that Pakistan is a failed state. app

arun wrote:A miniscule minority in the US are seeing that the Dhimmi like Jaziya paying US action vis a vis the Islamic Republic of Pakistan regards the Salala incident is an abject surrender:

Secretary Clinton's apology to Pakistan is a slap in the face

KLNMurthy wrote:

arun wrote:A miniscule minority in the US are seeing that the Dhimmi like Jaziya paying US action vis a vis the Islamic Republic of Pakistan regards the Salala incident is an abject surrender:

Secretary Clinton's apology to Pakistan is a slap in the face

Well-stated spot-on condemnation without going over the top. My worry is that this apology will further strengthen the "you can't change geography" gang in India who will point to US weakness as a reason to not keep India's options wrt TSP open.

shiv wrote:Americans have more faith in their country than their country can actually deliver. That is described as fierce patriotism.

shiv wrote:Failure to deliver after a lot of hype is a common thing in politics all over the world, but the difference in reactions to US failure compared with reactions to Indian failure to deliver tells me about how people are taught to view the US and how Indians are taught to view India.

shiv wrote:The US will never control Pakistan

shiv wrote:they are totally at the mercy of the same Pakistanis who have been tormenting India for decades.

shiv wrote:They are too scared to declare it a terrorist state and that fear is covered with all sorts of excuses - some of which you made on America's behalf. But what is even more ironic/funny is that declaring Pakistan a terrorist state will fail to have any effect on Pakistan. The US knows fully well how useless such a declaration would be in controlling Pakistan so they are bending over backwards to make it appear like it would be a bad thing and that they are "this close" to declaring Pakistan a terrorist state.

shiv wrote:Frankly all this is timepass and my gloating is only to make a point that few American fans are willing to see. If the US could have controlled Pakistan they would not have waited 3 Presidential terms. Even WW2 did not last that long, nor did the American Civil war or the Korean war. Vietnam lasted longer though, and you know why. The USA was in denial for years, based on governmental misinformation of Americans that all was well.

shiv wrote:Pakistan is the Taliban. Pakistan was Al Qaeda.

shiv wrote:The advantage to the US government of having fiercely patriotic Americans is that the latter are fiercely stupid and unable to see beyond their noses if the government tells them lies, or misinforms them.

shiv wrote:The US government does not want to fight or antagonize Pakistan. They want to mollycoddle and hold them because the US imagines it has more to lose than Pakistan if they don't. Fiercely patriotic Americans do not realize that Pakistan has the US by the balls and choose to believe that the US can somehow prevail.

shiv wrote:America's future and its relations with Pakistan would not be India's problem if America had not constantly chosen to arm Pakistan and use Pakistan's fear of India to make Pakis do things for them. The reason the Americans fear the Taliban now is that suddenly, the Mussalmans of Pakistan have discovered self respect and feel they should not suck up to the US in exchange for bribes. That is a very good development for India because the US will no longer be able to pour in money and arms into Pakistan out of "US self interest".

This is where I disagree. The American people I am talking about believe in their country. I don't fault them for that. Have they been lied to by their government about foreign policy? Yes they have. Have they been ignorant of what is happening outside the US? Yes they have. Does that make them gullible? Yes. Does that make them ignorant? Yes. Does that make them *STUPID* -- absolutely NOT. You see stupidity is permanent. Being gullible and ignorant can be changed very fast. Trust me, that is happening.

abhishek_sharma wrote:

This is where I disagree. The American people I am talking about believe in their country. I don't fault them for that. Have they been lied to by their government about foreign policy? Yes they have. Have they been ignorant of what is happening outside the US? Yes they have. Does that make them gullible? Yes. Does that make them ignorant? Yes. Does that make them *STUPID* -- absolutely NOT. You see stupidity is permanent. Being gullible and ignorant can be changed very fast. Trust me, that is happening.

So what? This is a very low bar. Only retarded people are expected to remain ignorant for decades.

"We are sorry for the losses suffered by the Pakistani military. We are committed to working closely with Pakistan and Afghanistan to prevent this from ever happening again," Clinton's statement said. Clinton spoke with Pakistan's foreign minister by phone Tuesday morning, she said.

"The Foreign Minister and I were reminded that our troops -- Pakistani and American -- are in a fight against a common enemy. We are both sorry for losses suffered by both our countries in this fight against terrorists," Clinton said in the statement. "We have enhanced our counter-terrorism cooperation against terrorists that threaten Pakistan and the United States, with the goal of defeating Al-Qaida in the region."

"Pakistan will continue not to charge any transit fee in the larger interest of peace and security in Afghanistan and the region," Clinton said. "This is a tangible demonstration of Pakistan's support for a secure, peaceful, and prosperous Afghanistan and our shared objectives in the region."

BAHAWALPUR: An angry mob lynched a man accused of burning the Holy Quran in the Chanighot area of Bahawalpur, burning him to death after pouring petrol on him on Wednesday.

The police reached the spot to control the matter but the mob refused to hand over the accused and continued to torture him. <-- Liar Paki reporter The mob actually attacked the police station and freed the man being interrogated. Pakistanis kill man accused of insulting Quran| AP

DSP Ahmadpur Rana Naveed Mumtaz, SHO Chanighot Ghulam Muhaudin Gujjar and seven constables were also injured by the mob.

The protesters also set a DSP jeep and three police mobiles on fire.

DPO Bahawalpur Ishaq Jahangir told The Express Tribune that it was “crystal clear” that the man who set the Holy Quran on fire was mentally unstable.

...

ArunK wrote: I see. So, let us see, as a comparison, Have the Indian people been ignorant of what is happening outside India? Yes they have and the majority still are. So by your yardstick, does it make Indians retarded?

abhishek_sharma wrote:

ArunK wrote: I see. So, let us see, as a comparison, Have the Indian people been ignorant of what is happening outside India? Yes they have and the majority still are. So by your yardstick, does it make Indians retarded?

No, Indian policies are not encouraging terrorism in other countries. Indian troops are not dying in other continents. Therefore, Indians are not obliged to know about what is happening in Iraq and Libya.

Now do you understand which country is retarded?

Nightwatch wrote: Pakistan-US: Pakistan agreed to reopen its roads to NATO supply convoys in return for a statement of condolences by the US. What Secretary of State Clinton said to Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar is repeated verbatim below, as reported in Pakistan's Daily Times on 4 July.


"Foreign Minister Khar and I acknowledged the mistakes that resulted in the loss of Pakistani military lives….We are sorry for the losses suffered by the Pakistani military. We are committed to working closely with Pakistan and Afghanistan to prevent this from ever happening again."


Khar told Clinton the land routes were reopening, and that "Pakistan will continue not to charge any transit fee in the larger interest of peace and security in Afghanistan and the region," Clinton said.


The Pakistani Taliban announced that they will target NATO convoys. Pakistani trucking firms demanded improved security.


Comment: A statement of condolences, regret or sorrow over losses that does not include an admission of culpability is not an apology. Both top diplomats admitted mistakes were made, but neither admitted culpability. There is no apology and that means Pakistan blinked, sort of.


US officials and generals have expressed regret repeatedly over Pakistan's loss of soldiers' lives during the friendly fire incident last November. Money and politics have worked in favor of a breakthrough on this issue. The Pakistan Army apparently needs the $1.1 billion that the US has now promised to release as its part of the bargain. This is not new money for the US, but what had been budgeted already.


Pakistani politics facilitated compromise because the new prime minister, Raja Pervez Ashraf, is not associated with the previous tough policy position adopted by former Prime Minister Gilani. Ashraf acted immediately to reopen the supply routes, bypassing the National Assembly, which Gilani was unable to do because of the intensity of public sentiment right after the incident.


Sub-continent politics also favored a breakthrough. The action of Pakistani officials, observing the US arrangements to withdraw forces and equipment through central Asia and Russia, indicate they realized, a bit belatedly, that the US was freezing Pakistan out of the Afghanistan end game and empowering India, Russia and Central Asian states, all allies of the northern, non-Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan.


Today's agreement reinstates Pakistan as a consequential actor in the end game. At home and to the Islamic world, Pakistan is now a facilitator of the withdrawal of non-Muslim/NATO forces from a Muslim land and region that Pakistan treats as a part of its sphere of influence - the Pashtun southern provinces of Afghanistan.


It also offsets any increase in Indian influence in Afghanistan. US Defense Secretary Panetta's statement about encouraging a larger Indian role in Afghanistan might have been the pivotal event that spurred the Pakistanis to make a change in policy.


Pakistani concessions and benefits IOW, Pa'istani GUBO

The Pakistan Army and the new Prime Minister made concessions so as to get the money and restore Pakistani influence. They now have found satisfactory language that the National Assembly and Chief of Army Staff General Kayani had rejected earlier. They dropped the demand that US/NATO drone attacks cease. They also dropped the transit surcharges for NATO supply trucks. Nevertheless, they now are in a position to influence and even control the US and NATO withdrawal through Karachi. Pakistanis and Pakistani trucking firms now will enjoy the spill over benefits of an army in withdrawal, instead of the central Asians.


US concessions and benefits IOW, US GUBO

The United States now will release the $1.1 billion to Pakistan's armed forces. The money, from a US 'coalition support fund' designed to reimburse Pakistan for the cost of counter-insurgency operations, had been withheld due to tensions between the two countries over the closure of the supply routes. The US taxpayers will benefit from enormous savings because of the cost differential between the northern and southern logistics routes.


Finally, the US reduces its dependency on Russian good will and cooperation for the use of Russian railroads in withdrawing US forces.


A Pakistani commentary

Hasan Askari, a prominent and astute Pakistani analyst, provided context to the agreement, in an interview on 3 July before US and Pakistani officials announced the agreement.


In response to a question, Askari said, "You see, the "signals" now are that the routes will be reopened as the dialogue between Pakistan and the United States was on what should be the "text" of the apology, what would be the acceptable manner, and what would be the condition for movement of supplies…."


"And even otherwise it would be better for Pakistan that if it has to play any role in Afghanistan and has to 'neutralize' the role of India GUBO otherwise big bad India will screw you because , then it will have to work jointly with the international community. Pakistan's interest will be in jeopardy if it remains isolated."


"Look, whatever decision is made, it will be made with the consent of the military because the 'high security matters' or 'high foreign policy matters' of Pakistan are not settled unless the military is involved in it. Therefore if a decision is made that means that the military agrees on it. The civilian government cannot step forward without the consent of the military. The civilian government is facing the pressure of the Supreme Court on one hand and on the other it is facing the pressure of the Opposition and on top of that it cannot stand further pressure from the military."


Comment: The Pakistan Army's pride was the stumbling block because the incident showed that it was and remains unable to defend Pakistan's western frontier. The Army drove this change in policy. The civilian government did as it was instructed.


The Army is wielding power through the civilian government on national security policy. The agreement to reopen the supply routes appears to indicate that the elected civilian government has become the figurehead for the Army again on national security issues, after a five year hiatus.

ArunK wrote:
To close, it may be fashionable to blame others for our situation. But if you look at it honestly, we Indians have only ourselves to blame as to how we are perceived or how our interests are not taken into account. Cursing out Americans will perhaps make you feel better but will not alter the facts on the ground. If you want to change the perception of India in the centers of power in the US, you have to make the effort to project a good image of India. That will require you to play the game of lobbying properly. India has always been inept with these kind of things. We should learn from Pakistan and Israel.

ArunK wrote: Nope - Pakistan did not exist during WW-II. But people who served in the British Indian Army went on to become heads of st ate in Pakistan. Ayub Khan serverd with distinction on the Burma front. Yahya Khan served in North Africa, Middle East, and Mediterranean theatres of the war.

Yep. Google Gary Powers. And Google Henry Kissingers secret trip to China.

Here is what wikipaedia says. -- Pakistan sent UN Peacekeeping forces to the former Yugoslavia during the Yugoslav wars. During the war, Pakistan supported Bosnia while providing technical and military support to Bosnia. Approximately 90,000 Pakistani people went to Bosnia during the Yugoslav wars, accounting for 20% of the volunteer military force.

Pakistan helped out massively in Afghanistan which was happening at the same time.

You may snigger all you want. But the joke is on you. 90% of Al-Q captured were captured during Mushy;s reign in Pakistan by Pakistanis.

I see. "Moral policy" -- OK. Next you will be proposing a ministry of Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice just like the Taliban and Saudi Arabia.
Oh, don't look now, but what you say next looks like a direct threat to "Retarded" people. So let me get this straight, are you proposing an Indian equivalent of a Jihad on the US?