Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jun 2013 20:14

Thanks, Very intutive. Great job.

Ramius · Post by **Ramius** » 12 Jun 2013 22:45

can garu rammana and rohitvats share what was the altitude before detonation. Perhaps we will be able to speculate what kind of warhead yield can be expected from such airburst.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jun 2013 23:32

Oh no. It was not about that but something else on the other video. Still waiting for experts to figure that out.

My guess is about a 500-1000 feet high.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2013 04:12

Exactly Singha! We are the most vulnerable.But the US's bases are vulnerable,while the PRC has secreted their hard core stuff underground.Plus China is not Libya,assets spread out.Cruise missile inventories run out very fast as w was found in Iraq.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Jun 2013 05:03

The real submarine shown in the video, is it Arihant?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jun 2013 06:25

No. The bird is launched form the pontoon.

And Philip give some attention to a physical features map of China.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Jun 2013 05:59

dinesha wrote:

Pontoon Launch System ..video grab from above link

Miss Arun_S-saar's keen-eyed analysis of such things

So we now sort of know how the cross section of an Arihant class' hump looks like, complete with the doors et al for crew members to sidle by the fat tubes. This is probably the closest that most of us jingos will see of an Indian SSBN's naughty parts

Not exactly rounded like Ohio or Russian ones, but better than the square humped cheen one.

The testers seem to want to mimic the silo-plugs as close as they can here, complete with the hatch door

I guess they will be adding a few extra plugs to the subsequent vessels (without those HD camera trusses

), once Arihant proofs other parts of the boat's operations. Flexible boat design and flexible test rig. From the deck doors, the boat seem to be of modest size, more like Virginia-ish.

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Jun 2013 06:52

hnair wrote:
dinesha wrote:

Pontoon Launch System ..video grab from above link
Miss Arun_S-saar's keen-eyed analysis of such things

So we now sort of know how the cross section of an Arihant class' hump looks like, complete with the doors et al for crew members to sidle by the fat tubes. This is probably the closest that most of us jingos will see of an Indian SSBN's naughty parts Not exactly rounded like Ohio or Russian ones, but better than the square humped cheen one.

The testers seem to want to mimic the silo-plugs as close as they can here, complete with the hatch door I guess they will be adding a few extra plugs to the subsequent vessels (without those HD camera trusses ), once Arihant proofs other parts of the boat's operations. Flexible boat design and flexible test rig. From the deck doors, the boat seem to be of modest size, more like Virginia-ish.

Nairgolis , have to agree. I said it earlier and am saying it again. What the dhoti clad yindoos have done is to create a multi role sub, that has flexibility to take on a strategic role as well a tactical role. It is both a boomer and an ssk . Can take Agni V class if needed an also the b05 , Brahmos in it's launch tubes. Perfect for our need for 2nd strike against panda and pig nation. We have no need for a 10 to 12k km range weapon and yes a multi role sub will be fine for us.

Someone in the navy clearly had their thinking caps on and have come up with a fine concept that fits perjfectly with our requirements and frankly kills two birds with one stone.

Wish the airforce and army too had such conceptual and strategic clarity

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jun 2013 09:51

Its a common missile compartment. Its called the pontoon but its the actual launcher itself. A bevy of such launchers will form the missile sub module of the sub.

nits · Post by **nits** » 17 Jun 2013 18:43

BrahMos can’t be intercepted in next 20 years: Scientist

BrahMos, the world’s only supersonic cruise missile and a symbol of the India’s military prowess has been billed to be “uninterceptable” for the “next 20 years”, by none other than the “father of BrahMos” himself.

“The equivalent of BrahMos is yet to built. And, in the next 20 years, it cannot be intercepted by an enemy,” says A Sivathanu Pillai, scientist, and CEO and MD of BrahMos

I mean Great... but really is this the case...

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 17 Jun 2013 19:13

Maybe Pillai saab meant Brahmos as a program which in future involves hypersonics etc., however the ouch moment was this statement,

"We take pride in the fact that BrahMos, world's only supersonic cruise missile, a symbol of Indo-Russian co- operation, where India provided the guidance, avionics, software and airframe components, etc, has been successfully delivered to both the Indian Navy and the Indian Army and the aerial version for the Indian Air Force too shall be ready in few years time," Pillai said in an interview.

and as OT for this thread, he also says,

Commenting on the lack of research culture in Indian universities and organisations, Pillai emphasised the need for government's greater attention and allocation of resources towards building a "research-based paradigm" in educational and research institutions.

"Government is spending 1.7 crore to make one IIT graduate. And, after graduation, the best brains go for either corporate jobs or to US universities, among others. And, then that country becomes a great country.

They leave because they don't have research opportunities back home and that's why we need to focus more on research - based paradigm. Because, when science grows, country grows," he said.

and another study points to the same,

India lacks in research-based education, Yale professor says

Jain said the research-based education is need of the hour. "The missing part in the Indian educational system is the institutional culture does not promote research-based scholarships as other top universities do to motivate scholars. There is no shortage of talented faculty and students in the country," he said.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 17 Jun 2013 20:12

They have a program called GQM-163A, which has limitation. Simulating a straight line supersonic missile at terminal phase is not difficult. The terminal countermeasures is challenging.

They have had AQM-37 Jayhawk for long.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jun 2013 21:59

Why always assume that when we say/claim something , US has an answer to it. Brahmos is not just a supersonic missile but also is an intelligent one with range of manouvering,active/passive guidance ,countermeasures and even RCS reduction.

May be Dr Pillai knows something about Brahmos which is not known or open and hence his confidence level. Dr Pillai does not stay in some cave where he is not aware of developments both Hard Kill and Soft Kill measures taking place around the world.

Seems like we always suffer from inferiority complex syndrome where our claim is always challenged by US has something.

Another source http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 628418.cms

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 17 Jun 2013 22:09

AQM-37 Jayhawk cannot manage a powered dive, which is required for a last moment maneuver. 2.7 mach GQM-163A had lot of failures and still not up to mark. US has purchased Russian MA-31 (KH-31 derivative) in limited number, fired them and logically taken their characteristics for software simulation. MQM-8 Vandal was created and it was not as good as MA-31. GQM-163 Coyote has come in place of MA-31.

MA-31 came as shells without electronics so, the terminal countermeasure is still not known. They will face same challenge with Brahmos and as hypersonic Brahmos comes, USN will have no equivalents. So Pillai is saying that.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Jun 2013 07:51

the guy must have been talking on his phone and the hears the first part and writes it down , not bothering to hear the rest

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jun 2013 08:41

pandyan wrote:I trust Dr. Pillai; but dont trust IDRW. May be Dr. Pillai said "in the next 20 years, it cannot be intercepted by an enemy if we keep investing and improving it. may be ddm caught only part of the statement

IF it was just IDRW I wouldnt have given much ear to it but the statement were carried by almost all major dailies so either they got it from one source i.e. PTI or probably reporters from these news papers were present.

But what I was pointing out is the general attitude we have towards our own developed product specially if we benchmark against known global standards , even today 10 years later Brahmos has no peers and in 10 years Brahmos has grown into far more versatile platforms.

And whats with really US can intercept supersonic missile , didnt DRDO mentioned that Barak-8 would be able to intercept supersonic missile.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 18 Jun 2013 08:44

^^^
Might just be marketing, every one does it. Why over analyze?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jun 2013 08:54

^^ Perhaps you are right there could be some marketing element to it too , barely systems are tested against its operational peers or in operational conditions so it helps people talk about their system.

John · Post by **John** » 18 Jun 2013 21:03

Austin wrote:And whats with really US can intercept supersonic missile , didnt DRDO mentioned that Barak-8 would be able to intercept supersonic missile.

Even Barak or Kashtan can intercept supersonic target but the engagement range is very limited against them, heck seawolf which is 2 decade old system prove it can intercept them and even shells for that matter. Bigger question is whether they can intercept a maneuvering high speed target.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2013 21:56

ramana wrote:Oh no. It was not about that but something else on the other video. Still waiting for experts to figure that out.

My guess is about a 500-1000 feet high.

India_Forum has a calculation based on geometry and estimates 500-700 m

LINK

Ramius · Post by **Ramius** » 21 Jun 2013 13:04

thanks Ramana saar....incidently found Arun S saar also...i was having sleepless nights over the bum issue....since he left the forum...many thanks!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2013 13:19

hiroshima bomb - 600m
nagasaki bomb - 450m

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2013 06:38

People sent me email why am wondering what is height of burst(HOB)? Like baap ka maal.

Well precious, the HOB will tell you the nominal weapon yield! I never ask fizul questions.
So an accurate estimation of the altitude will let those who want to know (bad guys) get an estimation of the size of the danda or gadha. The higher it is the bigger is the nominal yield.
So far its from 1500 feet to 2.5 km.

One can start from first principles of:
weight of the reentry vehicle
Coeff of drag say between 0.15(sleek cone) to o0.5(cone)

Altitude of reentry say 450Kft
and then do numerical integration all the way down.
But another way is estimate the time diff between the flash and the end and use the velocity at that time from above numerical integration.

Or let ArunS do the calc to the chagrin of Scar, Shenzi, Banzai and Ed.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 24 Jun 2013 10:41

ramana wrote: So an accurate estimation of the altitude will let those who want to know (bad guys) get an estimation of the size of the danda or gadha. The higher it is the bigger is the nominal yield.
So far its from 1500 feet to 2.5 km.

Extrapolating from the numbers in India Forum (220m - 1 Kt, 1745m - 500 Kt), it looks like the yield range is between 8 Kt @ 1500 feet and 1 Mt @2.5 km.

Ramius · Post by **Ramius** » 24 Jun 2013 13:45

acc to the same forum, yield= (hob/220)^3.....giving around 1.4 Mt....now this is a rediculus number...either the hob of 2.5 km is not quite right or we are really missing something.....just add to the fact that A1 is pig centric or were they testing fuse to be used on some other missile??

Ramius · Post by **Ramius** » 24 Jun 2013 13:55

an after thought...maybe we are not looking at the terminal shots of A1.....could be that the launch footage of a1 is mixed with splash down of some other system...if the 2.5 km figure is right, may be this can be an explntn...mt yields are too high to be used for pigs

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 24 Jun 2013 14:16

Nothing that you guys already don't know!

http://quicktake.wordpress.com/2013/06/ ... s-the-way/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2013 19:53

Folks please post what you deduce from India Forum there itself.

Not here.

Thanks,
ramana

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jun 2013 23:13

vinod wrote:Nothing that you guys already don't know!

http://quicktake.wordpress.com/2013/06/ ... s-the-way/

Logic and The Rationale

Therefore, the ASMPA is probably the one reason why India opted for the Rafale. Possibly, that is also the reason why the signing of the Rafale contract is being delayed. Do the French have a missile that they can sell? Is it vaporware? Announced, tested, prototyped – but not in production and yet to be inducted.

MTCR regulations create artificial limits – probably the range of Brahmos is more than 300-km and the ASMPA range is less than 300-km. By declaring the range of the ASMPA missile to 500-km, France can claim that MTCR regulations stop it from sale or transfer of missiles and missile technology.

India’s indigenous interceptor missiles already attain speeds of Mach3-Mach-4. So, Indian requirements is probably limited to weight-reduction – which France seems to have achieved.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jun 2013 05:32

In the 1970s the French had a air to surface missile called AS-20. BDL Hyderabad had negotiated the license production rights etc. However the US objected to the sale and it was never transfered by the French.
AS-20L came in laser guided mode and fear was India would learn from AS-20 and develop beyond that.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 26 Jun 2013 12:27

ramana wrote:In the 1970s the French had a air to surface missile called AS-20. BDL Hyderabad had negotiated the license production rights etc. However the US objected to the sale and it was never transfered by the French.
AS-20L came in laser guided mode and fear was India would learn from AS-20 and develop beyond that.

I thought that we were discussing about AS 30, to be used on Canberra

K

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 26 Jun 2013 14:20

ASMP-A is no serious comparison to the Brahmos, Brahmos is a stealth low level supersonic cruise missile with extensive maneuvering abilities which allow for diverse targeting options. From its seekers to usage the Brahmos is a far superior weapon. ASMP-A can and will be intercepted by standard SM or Patriot or S-300 batteries since the missile cannot cruise at low level like Brahmos which has already demonstrated 1m terminal altitude and mach 3 maneuvering kills.

nits · Post by **nits** » 26 Jun 2013 14:30

Septimus P. wrote:ASMP-A is no serious comparison to the Brahmos, Brahmos is a stealth low level supersonic cruise missile with extensive maneuvering abilities which allow for diverse targeting options. From its seekers to usage the Brahmos is a far superior weapon. ASMP-A can and will be intercepted by standard SM or Patriot or S-300 batteries since the missile cannot cruise at low level like Brahmos which has already demonstrated 1m terminal altitude and mach 3 maneuvering kills.

so does it implies that Brahmos can't be intercepted by S-300 ?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 26 Jun 2013 14:49

nits wrote:
Septimus P. wrote:ASMP-A is no serious comparison to the Brahmos, Brahmos is a stealth low level supersonic cruise missile with extensive maneuvering abilities which allow for diverse targeting options. From its seekers to usage the Brahmos is a far superior weapon. ASMP-A can and will be intercepted by standard SM or Patriot or S-300 batteries since the missile cannot cruise at low level like Brahmos which has already demonstrated 1m terminal altitude and mach 3 maneuvering kills.
so does it implies that Brahmos can't be intercepted by S-300 ?

In a terrain hugging flight (120km useful range) right from the start the S-300 won't be able to intercept the brahmos, however if the Brahmos cruises at altitude of 15km and is fired to max 'claimed' range of 300km then the S-300 should in theory be able to shoot it down.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jun 2013 19:46

Kersi,
AS-20 was to be license produced at BDL. AS-30 was finally bought for Mirages.

Glad you recall something of those days.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Jun 2013 02:18

Septimus P. wrote: In a terrain hugging flight (120km useful range) right from the start the S-300 won't be able to intercept the brahmos, however if the Brahmos cruises at altitude of 15km and is fired to max 'claimed' range of 300km then the S-300 should in theory be able to shoot it down.

PAC-3 has already demonstrated the capability to intercept high speed targets flying at low altitudes so no reason why S-300 can't do the same, the question is more of being able to detect the missile in urban scenario and the reaction time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2013 07:43

there is no platinum bullet. key is mass fire. nobody has a solution to 60 cruise missiles bearing down from all angles.
for this , volumes are needed and costs to come down.
for this, local technology and manufacture are a must.

any imported component will cost a lot and be open to huge price escalations.

nirbhay and its future derivatives with local engine are the key to breaking the chakravyuh.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 27 Jun 2013 13:27

Septimus P. wrote:ASMP-A is no serious comparison to the Brahmos, Brahmos is a stealth low level supersonic cruise missile with extensive maneuvering abilities which allow for diverse targeting options. From its seekers to usage the Brahmos is a far superior weapon. ASMP-A can and will be intercepted by standard SM or Patriot or S-300 batteries since the missile cannot cruise at low level like Brahmos which has already demonstrated 1m terminal altitude and mach 3 maneuvering kills.

I don't think missiles like Brahmos have any stealth capability. Even their thermal signatures are impossible to hide

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Jun 2013 14:07

ramana wrote:Kersi,
AS-20 was to be license produced at BDL. AS-30 was finally bought for Mirages.

Glad you recall something of those days.

AS 20 / AS 30 / Martel

I have been hearing about IAF having these ASMs since past few years/decades. But I have not yet seen a single pic of these ASMs, relating to IAF. Usually when a system has been is use for quite some time, it appears on the Republic Day parade. Till date I have seen only AS 7 and Sea Eagle displayed during Republic Day parade. AS 7 was supposed to be used with MiG 23BN / MiG 27ML. But when I have spoken to a couple of pilots of MiG 23BN / MiG 27ML they seem to know nothing about AS 7 !!!!

Information (or the lack) on the ASMs of IAF hase ben my per peeve ever since I joined BR, long long long time ago.

Only recently have we seen some pics of Kh 31 and Kh 59, with SU 30.

I understand, form reliable sources (i.e. my mother-in-law's second cousin's third wife's fourth brother-in-law's paan wallah's milk supplier's servant's brother;s .................) that IAF uses the Israeli Spice on Mirages.

Just for info : talk with any IAF man of SU 30 or Mirages, start talking about ASMs, he clams up tight and immediately!!

Wud be happy to enlighten myself on this topic

K

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 27 Jun 2013 15:35

PAC-3 has already demonstrated the capability to intercept high speed targets flying at low altitudes so no reason why S-300 can't do the same, the question is more of being able to detect the missile in urban scenario and the reaction time.[/quote]

Indeed however Brahmos is very different, the terminal altitude can be as low 10m-1m and the missile is travelling at mach 3 while maneuvering so at this altitude there is nothing out there that could intercept it. However, at high altitude of 15 km, it should be fairly easy game for s-300, patriot etc in a straight line. as long its not maneuvering.

Brahmos is not a stealth missile in the pure sense, at high altitude its thermal and radar signatures will register in most new gen radars, however at low altitude and cleverly set waypoints through valleys and mountains it can probably even slip through the latest Thales Raytheon Low level radars.

Brahmos can fly its entire mission at low level out to a reported 40% of existing reported range of 300km i.e 120km. However, since the true range of the brahmos is more like 500 this number should be about 200 km which is more than enough for most targets without being detected. A brahmos strike in early days of war will almost always be a surprise devastating shot at critical targets that are very well defended.