Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Aug 2014 20:35

LakshO wrote:On my morning walk, I see IAF rookies learning basic flying here in Hyderabad. I guess these birds are either Polish Iskaras or HAL HJT-16 Kirans or HAL HPT-32 Deepaks or Swiss Pilatus PC-7s based out of Begumpet/Hakimpet that teaches basic flight. Will the recently inducted BAE Hawks replace these trainers?

Iskras got phased out no?

The reason I remember is coz when I was building my model of an Iskra, it was in service but when I finished it had already been phased out.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 Aug 2014 20:52

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:The Apache deal was just another of Quisling Singh's gifts to his master Uncle Sam.The MI-28N is an equally decent attack helo which may be even cheaper to acquire and operate.We've used the MI-24/35s well for ages,should face little problems with the MI-28Ns.
LCHs will soon arrive, yes. Rudras are being inducted, yes. Mi-25/35s can persevere a little longer, yes. The threat from PA tanks is less than daunting, yes. All in all, a good case for scrapping the Apache deal. Which makes your advocacy for the Mi-28N in the same post, utterly bizarre.

^

@ Philip - A. Jaitley reported that US has surpassed Russia as India's largest defense import source for last three years. It's going to get worse just because India trades a whole lot more with US than Russia, and have a net trade surplus. Russia's dance with China is not helping either.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2014 20:57

wow the sheer details down to the last bolt and nut and the steep prices of the US deals reminds me of something...

... hospital inpatient bills

- everything down to the last bandage and disposable syringe is noted and steeply charged for...and the cost of lodging and nursing care escalates steeply from general ward up to levels of pvt rooms.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 Aug 2014 20:59

tushar_m wrote:
EC tiger Program cost €14.5bn / 19.38bn $ (France/Germany/Spain, FY2012)

LCH

Program cost estimated at INR3.76 billion (US$62.4 million)

LCH program cost is less than 0.5 % of EC tiger. That says a whole lot about what we can achieve if we just start investing in similar programs across the board.

Even with a success rate of 1 in 20, it comes out much ahead of any direct import under the table commission of 10%.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Aug 2014 22:19

Singha wrote:wow the sheer details down to the last bolt and nut and the steep prices of the US deals reminds me of something...

... hospital inpatient bills - everything down to the last bandage and disposable syringe is noted and steeply charged for...and the cost of lodging and nursing care escalates steeply from general ward up to levels of pvt rooms.

That's how FMS works. The customer goes through the requirement working closely with the OEM and communicates to the US consulate or to the joint office which then informs the Congress of the detail nature of the deal, it's components, cost and expected timeframe

John · Post by **John** » 13 Aug 2014 22:34

nik wrote:
LCH program cost is less than 0.5 % of EC tiger. That says a whole lot about what we can achieve if we just start investing in similar programs across the board.

Even with a success rate of 1 in 20, it comes out much ahead of any direct import under the table commission of 10%.

As we found out with IJT lets not count the chickens before they hatch, LCH still hasn't been inducted and it has been 3 years since first flight of TD-2 and TD-3 is still MIA.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 13 Aug 2014 22:35

nik wrote:
tushar_m wrote:LCH program cost is less than 0.5 % of EC tiger. That says a whole lot about what we can achieve if we just start investing in similar programs across the board.

Even with a success rate of 1 in 20, it comes out much ahead of any direct import under the table commission of 10%.

Program Cost = Development Cost + Procurement Cost (of planned units)
I highly doubt that HAL can deliver 179(114+65) LCH for Rs. 3760 million.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Aug 2014 22:44

hecky wrote:Program Cost = Development Cost + Procurement Cost (of planned units)
I highly doubt that HAL can deliver 179(114+65) LCH for Rs. 3760 million.

True enough. Australia's unit cost including support and weapons was about USD 63M. So -

The Tiger's cost of development would be:

[Program Cost] - 206 x [Unit Procurement Cost]
= $19380M - 206 x $63M
= $6402M

Approx. $6.4 billion.

So the LCH will development cost will be about 1% of what went into the Tiger.

^
Admittedly those figures are unlikely to be completely accurate, but the sheer scale of disparity illustrates how cost effective domestic programs are. Multiply the LCH's cost by factor of 5 and halve the Tiger's dev cost; the LCH still squeezes ahead.

The travesty is that DRDO/DPSUs are still expected to scrounge about every rupee, to minimize expenditure.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 13 Aug 2014 23:03

John wrote:As we found out with IJT lets not count the chickens before they hatch, LCH still hasn't been inducted and it has been 3 years since first flight of TD-2 and TD-3 is still MIA.

The LCH is low risk programme using the proven systems form the ALH/Rudra which are already in production. The TD-3 which is supposed close to production standard is due to rollout in a couple of months. The LCH is far from being a failed program.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Aug 2014 23:20

agupta wrote:You sure the "Program Cost" internal includes all "true development" costs (Salaries, Infrastructure) OR is it purely a Project cost ? Similar to how people claim LCA Program started in 2001 and all of the infrastructure and development work until TD-1 took to the air was funded with Djinn money ?

By all means include salaries & infrastructure. How much do you think that'll be?

Lets take an extremely generous case - say 1000 people working on it for 5 years straight @ $10,000/yr each. That's $50 mil total. Call it $100 mil. How much for infrastructure? The LCA's production line cost about $250 mil. Lets the use the same for the LCH.

So that's $350 mil in addition to the official $60 mil for LCH development. Compared to $6bn+ spent on the Tiger, its still a steal.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Aug 2014 23:28

Wages make up a huge huge difference. I had a chart a while back (Have to dig up some old external hard drives) that showed the average man hours required to develop and build a large scale aerospace project (I think it used the 787 as a reference). Regardless, the Minimum wage in France is 18,000 Euros per annum. Even the lowest ranked person working in the aerospace agency at the lowest possible skill level will make much more than that. Think 2x or 3x. The average aerospace salary in France is nearly ₹ 40 Lakh per annum If we talk about higher skill sets in manufacturing or even higher still skill sets in advanced engineering the difference only increases further. Thats a huge contributing factor given that the man-hours in production alone are in the millions and this does not include design-man hours which are for higher skill set engineers and also run up a very significant bill..

John · Post by **John** » 13 Aug 2014 23:30

abhik wrote:
John wrote:As we found out with IJT lets not count the chickens before they hatch, LCH still hasn't been inducted and it has been 3 years since first flight of TD-2 and TD-3 is still MIA.
The LCH is low risk programme using the proven systems form the ALH/Rudra which are already in production. The TD-3 which is supposed close to production standard is due to rollout in a couple of months. The LCH is far from being a failed program.

Fair enough but just noting and also Tiger is not exactly shining example of cost effective devolopment program great example of what happens when you have too many Product owners with different req and trying to make something that appeases all of them. That said the avionics on Tiger is far superior that anything we have. Russians spent far less than a billion for Mi-28 but i think program that is most similar to LCH is Mangusta but i don't have development figures for...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Aug 2014 00:25

what are the avionics on tiger which make it so superior? just a flir ball and datalink + self defence stuff. german AF chief saw dhruv with desi+yehudi gear at airshow and said its equal to whatever we have. so its hardly as if tiger is leagues apart. the longbow apache is ahead because of its radar + specialized acquisition system.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 14 Aug 2014 01:44

agupta wrote:Don't disturb the Lahori-math of our resident pseudo-patriots, H ! Pity they don't realize us SDREs actually are reasonably OK at common-sense-math and that this distinction exposes their denude-the-Services-under-guise-of-Patriotism agenda

DUDE, Keep your one liner j*rk comments to yourself. If we have differences on verbiage, then clarify and come to common understanding, before blowing off your po**y rawalp*ndi mouth.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Aug 2014 06:08

John wrote:
nik wrote:
LCH program cost is less than 0.5 % of EC tiger. That says a whole lot about what we can achieve if we just start investing in similar programs across the board.

Even with a success rate of 1 in 20, it comes out much ahead of any direct import under the table commission of 10%.
As we found out with IJT lets not count the chickens before they hatch, LCH still hasn't been inducted and it has been 3 years since first flight of TD-2 and TD-3 is still MIA.

Seeing how the flying hippo AKA F-35 is doing, I would like you to get off your high-horse and spew a little less scorn on the SDRE programs. IJT has been a lightning rod for the likes of you, who now think they have free to voimit their prejudice on whatever forum. Maybe you love the white TFTA maal, but that doesn't mean they are the right maal for India. We need money for many needs other than buying gold plated foreign toys. No matter how good these wunderweapons are, they cannot be at more than one place at once, which 2 or more of the desi ones at the same price can do. Fanboys like you need to be resigned to having orgasms over pics of these toys in foreign colors.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Aug 2014 06:11

nik wrote:
agupta wrote:Don't disturb the Lahori-math of our resident pseudo-patriots, H ! Pity they don't realize us SDREs actually are reasonably OK at common-sense-math and that this distinction exposes their denude-the-Services-under-guise-of-Patriotism agenda
DUDE, Keep your one liner j*rk comments to yourself. If we have differences on verbiage, then clarify and come to common understanding, before blowing off your po**y rawalp*ndi mouth.

This guy shoots his mouth off like fanyboys of foreign maal can ever be real patriots. One cannot truly be loyal to India with a paki wife and kids. Likewise one cannot be really loyal to indigenous equipment by being drooling at the mouth fanboys of foreign maal.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Aug 2014 08:05

Scientists developing futuristic tech for swarm UAV missions

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Aug 2014 09:30

One cannot truly be loyal to India with a paki wife and kids. Likewise one cannot be really loyal to indigenous equipment by being drooling at the mouth fanboys of foreign maal.

Have no idea what preceded this statement That sir is a rubbish fallacy of Argument. If we are all being pulled up for making nonsensical statements one way or the other without substantiating then the above has to be included in that list.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Aug 2014 10:45

^You have called up the above a "rubbish fallacy of Argument" and has done so "without substantiating" your assertion. I live in the real world where convoluted thought experiments don't stand up against the contradictions of divided loyalties. If you are telling me that a man will remain loyal to his nation while his wife and children might be vaporised by this very same nation, I really feel sorry for your lack of touch with reality. You are free to fantasize of a human being with principles immune to his circumstances. Regardless, I know that for most of humanity the opposite is true.

PS: Is this whole outrage over the silly Sania (the paki wife) thing?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Aug 2014 11:45

^You have called up the above a "rubbish fallacy of Argument" and has done so "without substantiating" your assertion.

Simply stating that I am patriotic or not based on a miopic parameter, ala a GWB you are with us or against us mentality is the Fallacy.

I too live in the real world and thats why your Statement of " one cannot be really loyal to indigenous equipment by being drooling at the mouth fanboys of foreign maal" is pure rubbish. Because guess what I can do both. I can Love the LCA and drool over the F-22 as well. I can support the FINSAS and have posters of the FNSCAR in my room at the same time. My intelligence and emotional quotient allows me to do that.

I live in the real world where convoluted thought experiments don't stand up against the contradictions of divided loyalties.

Sorry bruv pure semantics. Understand that my "real world" and yours dont have to be the same but both can be equally "Real". Different people go through different evolutions.

However, Your analogy comparing Foriegn Wife/Kids to drooling over Military Hardware and being patriotic to your own country is an apples to oranges comparison as you have taken away the Human Emotional Element and reduced it to the lowest common denominator.

If you are telling me that a man will remain loyal to his nation while his wife and children might be vaporised by this very same nation, I.....

Ironic out of the entire sentence you wrote it is the above you think you need to expand upon and explain to me because you think that is what has offended me. Your projection not mine.

And would love to know how you know "Most of Humanity".

PS: Is this whole outrage over the silly Sania (the paki wife) thing?

Nope ..again your projection not mine. My problem is somebody telling me whether i am patriotic or not by their own set of parameters without knowing me at all. Or again in this case alluding to my "lack of touch with reality" without knowing me at all.

PS.. completely OT so we can end convo loop.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Aug 2014 12:01

rkhanna wrote:Simply stating that I am patriotic or not based on a miopic parameter, ala a GWB you are with us or against us mentality is the Fallacy.

I don't think it is a fallacy, you can be either against terrorists or not, there is no gray area. Some things are just like that

I too live in the real world and thats why your Statement of " one cannot be really loyal to indigenous equipment by being drooling at the mouth fanboys of foreign maal" is pure rubbish. Because guess what I can do both. I can Love the LCA and drool over the F-22 as well. I can support the FINSAS and have posters of the FNSCAR in my room at the same time. My intelligence and emotional quotient allows me to do that.

I also admire foreign hardware and am quite aware that in many cases they are better, perhaps you are underestimating my definition of a drooling fanboy (my definition includes people who will promote foreign stuff at the cost of indigenous stuff, which is quite usable)

Nope ..again your projection not mine. My problem is somebody telling me whether i am patriotic or not by their own set of parameters without knowing me at all. Or again in this case alluding to my "lack of touch with reality" without knowing me at all.

I do not know any terrorist as well, but his action speak loudly about his patriotism (not implying that you are a terrorist or even unpatriotic). But I can hardly call someone who pushes foreign interests at the cost of domestic ones a patriot.

PS.. completely OT so we can end convo loop.

You are welcome to do that, I just replied to you. I will not continue this so long as you do not.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Aug 2014 12:07

Arun Menon wrote: You are welcome to do that, I just replied to you. I will not continue this so long as you do not.

Guess what? Next one who continues this line of conversation and disrupts the thread again will earn a warning.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Aug 2014 12:15

^Please feel free to remove my OT posts to the relevant thread (if any). Apologies for going off the rails.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Aug 2014 13:49

Whatever be the project cost of LCH, it is absolutely essential for the evolution of Air Aviation Corps and for Indian Army to have a potent strike power in third dimension.

Between LCH, ALH and WSI-Dhruv, they represent a kind of transformation in the IA's capability which was not present earlier. And this rotor element will be one of the major over-match over PA in the western sector. Irrespective of rants about IA crushing PA and all that, we don't really enjoy the qualitative and quantitative advantage across the board. There are islands of over-match. However, LCH+WSI-Dhruv and ALH provide a still higher over-match. 180 attack helicopters between LCH and Rudra is no mean joke. Add the Apaches and you suddenly have a very potent force of ~220 attack helicopters.

From employing Chetak in ATGM role to having grand total of 2 x Hind Squadrons, that is a phenomenal leap. Not to mention that that much vaunted AH-1 Cobra gunship fleet of PA looks puny in front of this massive force!

Slowly but surely, we're reaching a stage where might of Indian economy through its MIC is making its impact felt.

So, whenever LCH comes, it will be more than welcome. I hope next iteration is a chopper like Tiger which is able to fill multiple roles.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Aug 2014 13:57

^I really want to know the answer to this: What can the Apache do that two or more LCH (which is the case price wise) cannot do, how important is it and does the numbers of Apaches justify the roles.

Please don't tell me to google this, I really have no idea.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Aug 2014 00:18

India Plans to Buy Russian Reconnaissance Aircraft

Three more Il-76 based AWACS ?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 16 Aug 2014 04:49

It's going to be airframes (like prior deal). Would be good to mount DRDO AESA on it instead of Israel.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 16 Aug 2014 05:39

With Respect to Purchase of US arms at inflated purchases. Looks like we are not going to go for Westinghouse and other uber expensive US made reactors. But we need to compensate the US for the legwork they did to allow NSG to supply to us. So we have purchased C-130J, C-17 and other equipment at one of the Highest rates, similarly I think we need to some similar purchases to compensate Uncle.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 16 Aug 2014 07:23

wiki says this about DRDO AEW&C

the delivery of six additional systems ordered in October 2010 is to begin from 2015. In June 2010, it was reported that the Indian Air Force is said to be looking at acquiring up to 20 additional systems, in addition to the existing systems on order.

Anyone got idea about this ???

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Aug 2014 07:25

I strongly protest about the Russian aircraft being purchased as platforms for the AWACS! How come they have suddenly have become worthwhile when the same platform (already in splendid service as the IL-76) was rejected as a transport for the C-17,again rejected (despite again being in excellent service as a tanker IL-78) for the A-330 as a tanker,but now is being again chosen as the platform for the AWACS! Surely Russian wares cannot be as good as western birds,esp. those from the US? As the Bard famously said,"Something is rotten in the state of ......."!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Aug 2014 07:32

Are these going to be the Il-76TD-90VDs or IL-476s?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Aug 2014 07:44

Raja Bose wrote:

That's a nice model! What's that yellow thingie in the rear? If it's to hold the tail up, you could put a blob of plasticine in the nose.

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Aug 2014 08:20

rohitvats wrote:Whatever be the project cost of LCH, it is absolutely essential for the evolution of Air Aviation Corps and for Indian Army to have a potent strike power in third dimension.

Between LCH, ALH and WSI-Dhruv, they represent a kind of transformation in the IA's capability which was not present earlier. And this rotor element will be one of the major over-match over PA in the western sector. Irrespective of rants about IA crushing PA and all that, we don't really enjoy the qualitative and quantitative advantage across the board. There are islands of over-match. However, LCH+WSI-Dhruv and ALH provide a still higher over-match. 180 attack helicopters between LCH and Rudra is no mean joke. Add the Apaches and you suddenly have a very potent force of ~220 attack helicopters.

From employing Chetak in ATGM role to having grand total of 2 x Hind Squadrons, that is a phenomenal leap. Not to mention that that much vaunted AH-1 Cobra gunship fleet of PA looks puny in front of this massive force!

Slowly but surely, we're reaching a stage where might of Indian economy through its MIC is making its impact felt.

So, whenever LCH comes, it will be more than welcome. I hope next iteration is a chopper like Tiger which is able to fill multiple roles.

+1 But in addition I feel that Army should also get HTT-40 and Prahaar, Nirbhay for deep offensive CAS and to hit staging areas of enemy.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Aug 2014 08:58

Yes, LCH must come at any cost but let our development programs not hold the defence services hostage. Reeling off the names of our development projects as if they are already here is insane. When the LCH comes it will represent a breakthrough in our capability even if it is not the best gunship out there and we will use it even if we have 200 Apaches by then. We will then take the next step. Let's remember that the mighty USA's fighters at the outbreak of WW2 were inferior to those of Britain, Germany and even Japan in spite of their industrial might. They learned from those countries without hesitation as must we. The difference is that unlike our current state, they had actual aircraft, not projects, and they churned them out faster than anyone else.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Aug 2014 11:01

^Buying foreign stuff has sure taught India lots of stuff. The famed TOTs were instrumental in helping us build a mild-ind complex that is the envy of the world./sarc off

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Aug 2014 21:42

Sarc is OK but what is the suggestion? Should the IAF continue to use Kiran trainers until a new IJT is drawn up, developed and produced?

With Rudra already operational for so long, the delay in LCH points to major problems at HAL revolving around their design capability as too many projects suffer from weight and aerodynamic issues. We need to figure out what these capability problems are and fix them. For sure it is not the quality of engineers because most of them would be snapped up by foreign and private Indian companies immediately if given the chance. Many already are I'm sure. That's a big enough clue.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Aug 2014 06:13

The Rustom - 1 made its first test flight on November 11, 2009, still it is not deployed or mass produced!
What is DRDO doing hain ji?
From Panch-varshiya yojna they are going to take 10 years to develop a basic drone hain ji?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 20 Aug 2014 06:27

Rustom se yaad aya, India's Rustom II UAS Set For Winter Flight Debut

-Ankit

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 20 Aug 2014 08:58

Gagan wrote:The Rustom - 1 made its first test flight on November 11, 2009, still it is not deployed or mass produced!
What is DRDO doing hain ji?
From Panch-varshiya yojna they are going to take 10 years to develop a basic drone hain ji?

Wasn't it sort of a tech demonstrator used for mostly research purposes?

Besides, how long did such programs, i.e. making such drones for the first time, take in other nations?

How many of them had more than decades of experience in aviation R&D, unlike India?

We must realize that almost all aviation programs run for a decade or more before seeing results.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Aug 2014 02:51

Continuing on a previous conversation.

vic wrote:There are some Internet articles that Garrett TPE-331-12A has been selected as engine for HTT-40. Anybody has more info?

NRao wrote:Old news?
Feb, 2014 :: HTT-40 Powerplant and Other Details

vic wrote:But is this confirmed?

indranilroy wrote:Looks like it. But it would be TPE331-12B.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSLFCngGqtQ

Further confirmation on the engine from HAL's tender " to carry out rotary and static tests towards development of mathematical model for analyzing the spin and recovery characteristics of HTT-40. The scope of work includes model design, manufacture, testing, analysis of results and associated mathematical model generation for compliance to FAR-23 (aerobatic category) standards."

Surprisingly, this tender has gone out to Onera, TsAGI, and Langley, and not to NAL. Most probably, because of experience with FAR-23 standards. Anyways, the placement of the engine exhaust in the diagrams in the tender suggests that it is the TPE331-12B instead of the PT6A-6X series.