India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jan 2016 20:44

I might be wrong, but somehow I think the effect of _Indian_culture_ and _an_Indian-upbringing_ on 2nd and 3rd gen Indians is being ignored while being judgemental about the few we meet or know.

The thing that sets apart Indian culture from American culture is individualism of the latter versus the collectivism of the former. You are never thrown out of the group. An Indian American kid can behave in a way that is alien to other Indians or Indian Americans - but he will not be ignored by Indians like they ignore others, white, black or brown who behave that way. That kid still has his place in the extended Indian society. And if, at some distant time in the future the chap is lonely and need support and an identity, India and Indians will always take him back, with no money and no possessions and give him a place ad a background to cling on to.. His Indian identity will never go away.

One need to look at Indian diaspora in places like Fiji and Trinidad to see how they are different yet part of us. Which Indian rejects Rohan Kanhai or Kallicharan as "not us"?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Jan 2016 21:27

The problem is revers. While India does not reject them they might reject India. Last week I was talking to a friend's grown up kid about some foreign policy of the U.S. He used "us" in he conversation which was out of place. I instinctively assumed he was referring to India by that word. Then after a double take, I realized that he was referring to the U.S. not India. Cognitive dissonance - he looks like Indian, speaks the language somewhat, and knows I am naturalized.

Yes they will be given a place but as a lower level in the society and an object to be pitied and shown as a negative example. For example, how well a drug addict who got rehabilitated through de-addiction will be treated in India? I think the societal stigma is lot more in India than in the U.S. In the U.S. though once they get into the police system for either drugs or a sex crimes, it would be impossible for them to get a job or rented house.
When I say indans will revert to the norm, over a couple of generations yes a majority are going to be in middle paying jobs. some are going to succeed fabulously and some will even descend into drugs and other crimes. Jewish mafia is well known and not all Jewish are extremely successful either. But they have a right to return and can go to Israel. The problems in in Israel are different.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 18 Jan 2016 21:58

Congratulations to one of our own IIT Kanpur scientist who is being honored with one of the most prestigious award - Medal of Science from Obama, on January 22nd. He studied Engineering, and used his knowledge to make life better for so many cancer patients. { see my posts about cancer

- some of us who do not start in the "field" can also know a little } At present he is the Andrew Werk Cook Professor of Tumor Biology at Massachusetts General Hospital in the Harvard Medical School and Director of the E.L. Steele Laboratories for Tumor Biology at the Massachusetts General Hospital. And his work has benefitted countless cancer patients.

Barack Obama to honor IIT Kanpur alumnus Dr Rakesh Jain with National Medal of Science

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2016 22:23

Primus and Paul, What I see at least in No Ca is children of doctors are becoming doctors.
Route is UC System Berkeley, LA & SD and then on to USC. However some after that have gone into business!!!

Haresh, its the hunger/motivation to succeed that is lacking due to 1st gen parents providing everything without asking. The doc kids know they are toast and excluded unless they also become medicos.

Oddest thing is the 2nd kid came to mom and said he could have done better in college. This despite all four years in the UC labs, submitting 3 papers and selected to study at Vienna!

So he has the hunger/motivation but a bit later. Hope it si sustained through later years.

AmberG, Some thing disturbing I learnt today. Apparently there is latent ADHD among desis which makes them not focused and start multiple projects and not take to completion. They are great at art of starting and not beyond that. Easily get distracted.
Any feedback on this?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 18 Jan 2016 22:49

ramana,

As someone who suffers from ADHD and knows how to identify other folk suffering from the same. I have noticed that quite a lot of Indians in the US suffer from it, disproportionately.

I dont know if its because of a selection-bias (i.e. those who make it to the US have a larger probability of having ADHD).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2016 23:13

LokeshC wrote:ramana,

As someone who suffers from ADHD and knows how to identify other folk suffering from the same. I have noticed that quite a lot of Indians in the US suffer from it, disproportionately.

I dont know if its because of a selection-bias (i.e. those who make it to the US have a larger probability of having ADHD).

Isn't the Indian success even more remarkable!

Why I raised this is, Indian parents have to realize/be aware of this and take steps to counter it. Being prone to the ADHD, they need to ensure second gen success.

First need to have awareness and then remediation comes into play.

We can discuss in GDF.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Jan 2016 23:15

ramana: My theory is that it is not ADHD but pressure to perform in too many extra-curricular activities as well as be in the 99% in the school. Focus is required. Parents should understand that it is not end of the world if the child doesn't get into MIT/Caltech/Harvard/Princeton. Actually lot of parents encourage children and children also want the "branded" degree from Ivys even if it means what they think is an "easy" major. But all bets are off ones you go to Harvard. There are people (especially locals) who are genuinely interested and are talented in some of those majors. Some of these children while intelligent do not do as well due to lack of interest. Hard work can get one far enough but cannot make the person actually excel as in great invention or scientific discovery.

Just yesterday Sal Khan was interviewed on Bloomberg Business Channel. He had several insightful things to say about US education. NRI parents are suckers for brand names - may it be jeans, Tees, shoes, Chandeliers, perfumes, cars, or colleges. Something to do with the insecurity of their childhood in India.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 18 Jan 2016 23:27

LokeshC wrote:ramana,

As someone who suffers from ADHD and knows how to identify other folk suffering from the same. I have noticed that quite a lot of Indians in the US suffer from it, disproportionately.

I dont know if its because of a selection-bias (i.e. those who make it to the US have a larger probability of having ADHD).

Lokesh, did you get medically diagnosed or did you compare your symptoms to some reference? I think it is very common among desis as ramana said.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 18 Jan 2016 23:29

I have a complete diagnosis from a university prof who specializes in adult ADHD.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Jan 2016 23:29

TSJ: Come to think of it, I am weakening my claim of President Obama being insincere. He has done a few good things - opening up Cuba, and now Iran, healthcare reform (but he could have gone further). But he is very political. That rankles a bit. My objections have nothing to do with his skin color which is a little fairer than my own

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 18 Jan 2016 23:43

The foolish Brits are now in Parliament debating whether to ban Donald Trump or not to appease the Muslims!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2016 23:45

Lets carry on in GDF.

VT I know what I am saying.

I don't trust a wanna be Paki about Indian parents.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jan 2016 00:14

ramana wrote:
AmberG, Some thing disturbing I learnt today. Apparently there is latent ADHD among desis which makes them not focused and start multiple projects and not take to completion. They are great at art of starting and not beyond that. Easily get distracted.
Any feedback on this?

Ramanaji - Some may know it but for some desis come to know about it first time when their kids go to school, and first time they learn from school psychologist or internet rather than from their pediatrician. FWIW, from what I know, ( I yes believe ADHD is real), in many cases it is over diagnosed in US. (Incidentally, our pediatrician ( A close friend from my IIT days who is practicing pediatrician in US for more than 30 years) agrees with this.

FWIW , I am attaching Berkeley Wellness article:
Is ADHD Overdiagnosed?

***
Sometime ago I had an occasion to listen to some lectures given by scientists from Stanford which belong to center specializing with Indian Americans. Learned some very interesting things from an endocrinologist who was following Indian in Silicon Valley area for many decades. From what I heard from his lecture, he was surprised by the high incident of Type II diabetes, even among children, and gestacional diabetes among Indian women. Now this group was quite educated and prosperous but still the incident was higher than expected and sort of unexplainable. One reason was, when a couple was expecting (or when kids were young), the parents (or parents-in-laws) came to area to help. They also brought things like Mithaee and made rotis/phulkas which are high in Carbs. But also - one important reason was most of the western medical textbooks and literature did NOT have the correct values for normal test values -- like "normal percentile " range for BMI level -- suitable for Indian kids, and doctors went with values which were OK for Caucasians but not necessary correct for Indian kids. Its only in last 10-15 years that they are updating these values for Indian demographics.

There were some lectures about other health aspects too. Interesting also was to learn more about engagement between IIT and UC Santa Cruz (Biomedical Engineering) with respect to Decoding and Defeating Cancer.
Edited later: corrected a typo.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jan 2016 02:37

Added later: Virtually all reputable sources seem to agree about over-diagnose of ADHD. FYI NYTimes: Expand Pre-K, Not A.D.H.D.

The problem is that millions of American children have been labeled with A.D.H.D. when they don’t truly have it. Our research has revealed a worrisome parallel between our nation’s increasing push for academic achievement and increased school accountability — and skyrocketing A.D.H.D. diagnoses...

Trouble is:
>>There’s no blood test, there are no brain scans. It’s a symptom list—do they have trouble focusing, do they squirm and so on. The diagnosis is more of a judgment call
A bored child can act out in class simply by having a lousy teacher. The doctors do see a lot of quick and dirty diagnoses, and that can lead to the labeling and stigmatizing of children who don’t have ADHD-- Not to mention side-effects of being put on powerful medications.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Jan 2016 03:10

ramana wrote:VT I know what I am saying.

I don't trust a wanna be Paki about Indian parents.

I hope you are not referring to me. If so, I protest of course. I am as far as one can be from being a RAPE (Rabid Anglophone Pakistani Elite).

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Jan 2016 03:17

western medical textbooks and literature did NOT have the correct values for normal test values -- like "normal" range for A1C level -

Allooooo!!! Salvation!!!! AmberG, pls post Jilebi-safe A1C for desi kids over 16.. 40... OK, 60?

7.9, maybe?? Just hoping..

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jan 2016 03:49

okay oops! I was thinking too-much about Diabetes and typed A1C instead of BMI. what they said was indicators like BMI etc... For example (this is what I understood, may be some doctor can put it better) a desi baby considered thin (compared to Caucasian baby) is not really thin - but healthy (and does not need extra hi-energy food). (I edited my original post).

But keep watching those A1C numbers, I was told more you are aware and get early warning , chances of avoiding ( slowing or controlling) the diabetes it better (not to mention controlling diabetes effects eye, kidney etc.

(And it would be nice when Holme's type clinic is available every where -- when one can get this done for less than $5 and a finger-prick)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jan 2016 03:50

I did two tests.. one that is required and the one that I requested to be done.

for the chore-porate required test, they used a prick test with an a1c, trig, and other chore sponsored test kit.
for my requested tests (i didn't tell them reasons, but I demanded a blood test be done to get complete details of whatever they can.. they were first suspicious to find out what is the main focus of this test is all about.. I said, just general purpose to observe my platlet count, etc...), that they sucked about 10ml or more from me.

On the chore sponsored test kit, my trig was showing at 167ish.. and on my blood test report, it showed about 80s. remember, the blood was drawn at the same time, like 5 min difference., overnight fasting.

now which one I should trust?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Jan 2016 04:19

One can get the charts from India which have proper percentile markings for new babies. While growing up my daughter was in bottom 25% on the US charts but was in just a tad below average on the Indian chart. I got a couple of charts from Indiaafter my daughter's pediatrician suggested and left it with the clinic.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2016 05:20

VT, Not you but your ref!

AmberG, I am aware of that Stanford medics initiative.

We can continue in GDF thread on Personal health. I have contacts with that center for South Asian Heart studies.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jan 2016 05:46

US Visa Fee Hike to Have Multi-Million Dollar Impact: Wipro

The company is looking to mitigate the impact by hiring more locals in the US

member_29218 · Post by **member_29218** » 19 Jan 2016 05:59

ramana wrote:Primus and Paul, What I see at least in No Ca is children of doctors are becoming doctors.
Route is UC System Berkeley, LA & SD and then on to USC. However some after that have gone into business!!!

Haresh, its the hunger/motivation to succeed that is lacking due to 1st gen parents providing everything without asking. The doc kids know they are toast and excluded unless they also become medicos.

Oddest thing is the 2nd kid came to mom and said he could have done better in college. This despite all four years in the UC labs, submitting 3 papers and selected to study at Vienna!

So he has the hunger/motivation but a bit later. Hope it si sustained through later years.

...............

Ramana Ji, I have a lot of family and friends in No CA and while there are plenty of physicians' kids following their parents, the trend now is to go into corporate finance. In the short run, the returns are better, no need for eight years of college etc. In any case, healthcare as we know it is rapidly becoming a huge corporate business, physicians are no longer making the kind of money they did even 10 years ago.

What is true though is that the second gen Indian kids are by and large highly motivated even though they may take a bit longer to get there.

What may surprise many here is that a lot of the second gen is marrying outside the Indian diaspora - and yet the dream and ambition is still burning in their hearts.

Not sure what will happen in another 50 yrs, would like to think it will not change, but you never know.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Jan 2016 06:00

I knew that was too good 2 b true.

But remember how coconut oil was baaaaaad cholesterol? That was all pure pakistan: now docs prescribe coconut for all sorts of ailments. Same way, all this Good Cholesterol - Bad Cholesterol comes from the US State Department, Division of Good Terrorists and Bad Freedom Fighters.
A1C sounds way too much like H1B to be anything that was **NOT** created by the same entities or by the Culinary Institute of America.
I hear that honey is Good whereas maple syrup and corn syrup are Bad. Anyway, who needs jilebi? Try my recipe: Eat raw Karela. Then drink water: it feels sweeter than maple syrup or jilebi.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jan 2016 07:57

UlanBatori wrote: Try my recipe: Eat raw Karela. ....

I am sure you know that, (it has been all over in the news,this will also keep you 4 years old for ever.

.!(seriously Metformin - like karela lowers blood sugar - is in the news and scientific papers recently)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Jan 2016 08:40

in 1959

disha · Post by **disha** » 19 Jan 2016 09:17

Amber G. wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: Try my recipe: Eat raw Karela. ....
I am sure you know that, (it has been all over in the news,this will also keep you 4 years old for ever..!(seriously Metformin - like karela lowers blood sugar - is in the news and scientific papers recently)

UB'ji., why do you want a peachy bottom?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2016 09:32

MBA and on to hedge fund management. Old days startup. VC sharks eat up too much. Hence this route.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Jan 2016 10:05

ramana wrote:MBA and on to hedge fund management. Old days startup. VC sharks eat up too much. Hence this route.

The saying goes,if want to raped , go to VC 's room. They leave too little for hard working ones. One of my friends just got financed by private plus VC on 50/50 basis for his new venture in Cyber security. He rejected initial offer from 2 of well known big desi VCs who tried to bait him with peanuts and then cage him . They were shocked he could say no to them. Luckily he had one senior known old tech guy guiding him. He is dreaming/ streaming/scheming to give kick in the butt of 3 major cyber security companies in Silicon Valley. Team is headed by pure Punjabi with majority Euro Coolies. DOD already paid visit to his Dukan. Another Chennai chap starting in Cupertino hoping to do same getting funded from India /UK itself. One is friend and other is an old client, Both Desis & shooting for same and do not know each other.Will see who succeed first , Madrasi or Punjabi? Between them they will end up gobbling big $$$ before showing result.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2016 03:04

One for the common man. These stats have stayed fairly constant for decades.

A third of startup founders are engineers: Jombay survey

Have a startup idea but feel inhibited by the lack of the 'proper' educational qualifications? Fear not. Sure, one in every three startups has been founded by an engineer but a degree from one of the Indian Institutes of Technology doesn't necessarily spell startup success. A survey of the education qualifications of 179 founders at 100 startups by Jombay, a talent assessment and analytics firm, shows little correlation between ranking of academic institutes, especially IITs, and the success ..

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2016 03:05

India tops Asia in sending scientists, engineers to US

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2016 03:42

NRao, The start-up cluture in US was started by a lecture series by Harvard professor. His students moved to Silicon Valley and started VC firms to support the eco-system.
T Perkins et al are his students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Doriot

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Jan 2016 04:30

after chiseling the sleet and scraping hardened snow on the windshield at -3*f (unfortunately parked outside as garage door is jammed) for 15min with cotton gloves, I had to dip my hands in ice cold water at 32*f approx. It felt sooo warm.

eating karela and drinking water has similar brain effects. JMT. karela is indeed a wonder food.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Jan 2016 04:36

ramana wrote:MBA and on to hedge fund management. Old days startup. VC sharks eat up too much. Hence this route.

Maybe it's time to do a thread on VC sharks and seed stage VC ownership. Andreesen Horwitz claims no more the 13% at seed. Some investments I know of validate but....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2016 05:13

Please start in Econ & Tech forum.
thanks,
ramana

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2016 06:39

NRao wrote:India tops Asia in sending scientists, engineers to US

the problem is this:
7 decades of congi economy has not produced even 5 indian chaebols with deep roots around the world and large diversified r&d operations to absorb scientists. each chaebol in turn would support atleast 10 world class smaller component makers.

3 decades of jungle capitalism in cheen has produced the worlds biggest shipyards, the worlds biggest electronic assembly lines, construction sector at world scale, exportable machine tool makers at scale, one of the top2 largest car and CV markets, lenovo, huawei, zte, xiaomi, baidu, tencent, alibaba, weibo and many more who are able to compete with the world.

our chaebols are midgets even by asian std. many are traders, not producers of knowledge and product.

they also have far more univs in the top300 in the world than india.

15 years of very uneven jungle capitalism is needed to even bring us to a point where such things can be imagined.

it is rahul gandhi and gangs life mission never to let this happen. land rights, dalit rights, muslim rights, EJ rights are all convenient hooks to perpetuate their brand of economics. tens of millions still buy it the myth of developing->developed without wealth inequality....ie be a sweden all the way from bottom to the top. never been done and not possible.

just drive around in rural areas of large states - it could be 100s of km before you see a significant industry cluster at a level of tech able to export.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2016 06:58

Excuses will never get it going. Not even possible. Do you really think that people who start new businesses have a great time or even an OK time in the US? We have our own MMS and St. here too.

But, what I consider the diff maker is that this society never considers a failure as a failure. And, on the flip side risk is rewarded. It is cultural, not a political policy. That culture also pervades the gov to some extent and Babus cannot do too much about it.

People cannot wait till the right leader comes along. Should not. The leaser can slow it down or speed it up, but the culture should be therefor everyone to try (and fail if need be).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jan 2016 12:25

since amrika was a 'fresh start' they never had the kind of red tape and over-management that old world countries had. even today in EU even if the low level governance is efficient and honest, try starting a business, getting an tax breaks for new business or reducing workers if business conditions decline - people say its not easy and thats why very less of new world beating cos get started in france, germany, sweden and so on and much of their talent flies to massa onlee. UK has kind of modeled itself after massa to attract capital flows and drive business and hence is considered more 'dynamic'

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2016 12:57

No matter. The issue is related to culture, more than anything else.

That is what needs cultivation in India and perhaps other nations too. Difficult, granted.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jan 2016 13:00

Lockheed Martin looks at reviving bid to sell Javelin missiles to India

Aircraft deal

Lockheed Martin is also bullish on the $5.3-billion C-130J aircraft deal, which includes delivery of 29 C-130J-30s stretch models, 13 HC130 Js, 30 MC-130Js and 6 KC-130 J refuellers.

The Maryland-headquartered firm is in advance negotiations for the Aegis ballistic missile defence system that can attack land targets, submarines and ships simultaneously.

I think this item in this article is a pure DDM. The $5.3-billion deal is for the US DoD: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1968531

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Jan 2016 09:40

X Posted from “India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011” thread:

With the paperwork, both at the multilateral IAEA level and the Bi-lateral Indo-US level having been concluded, I would have expected the US to have said that it is India’s right to conclude nuclear power generation deals with anyone they choose. OTOH the response by US State Department Spokesperson John Kirby is to the say the least shifty.

So is the US backtracking on the Civil Nuclear deal they entered into with India and shifting goal posts?

I do hope our MEA will take this up with the US and obtain clear cut clarifications:

QUESTION: Wait a minute. How does the U.S. view that last week, Russia and New Delhi decided to build 12 atomic plants and nuclear component reactors? What is the U.S. Government view on that?

MR KIRBY: You’ll have to let me take the question. I don’t – I can’t speak to that particular report, so you’re going to have to let me get back to you on that.

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