Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Surya wrote:Gaur

Not sure why you think I meant to say it had anything to do with MLI???

I was just trying to emphsize the extralevel of toughness that 6 months requires -
The point is that the diff between the 3 month probation the idiot Para generals wanted and the 6 month probation which the original SF used.

Think of it - you are slogged through 3 months with only 1 alternate Sunday off. Men around you are falling off and you still have 3 more months to go.


That is the diff - men give up into the 5th month. only the truly tough hang on.

If you get a chance - watch them
It seems I misunderstood you. Also, I fully agree with you on the probation duration.
Surya wrote:BTW your friend is also wrong in saying only 3 men from the MLI volunteered. :)
Really? Then what is the correct number? Perhaps I heard him wrong (though I am pretty sure that I didn't). :)
Marut
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Marut »

LM, firstly drop the 'ji' please :)

I do agree with you that this seems to be a bit out there. Infact, I have known this for 8-9 years but never let out since it always felt a bit out there. But the first part was corroborated, so I put the second part to see if any truth exists. A bit hard to dismiss the chai offered by a full bird from AMC with wings & dagger posted in J&K for all of the 90's with a brother in the CabSec, don't you think?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Lalmohan »

never dismiss chai... always refreshing
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Gaur

All guys opted to be converted(including pujari etc.). Few made it. Rest ended up in normal Army.
rohitvats
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

As for the 6months probation period, my dad's CO(in AMC) was ex-RMO of 10 PARA SF and told stories about the probation period. And they were not pleasant.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Too many chaiwallahs in SF these days, hain ji?! They need to open a CCD (SF). :twisted:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Khalsa »

Slightly off but something that will interest you
The mismatch between 5.56 and 7.62 mm calibre weapons......

NZ attempts to correct the mismatch
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=10701925
Marut
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Marut »

Raja Bose wrote:Too many chaiwallahs in SF these days, hain ji?! They need to open a CCD (SF). :twisted:
The next Bay Area meet will be held there :mrgreen:

But seriously, haven't had chai since that time. Only filter kaapi that too very light strength. Not many opportunities for chai these days :(
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by wig »

interesting designation
ISI- An instrument of terrorismBy Major General Keshav Padha (AVSM, VSM)
(The writer is former Commander Special Forces, Indian Army.)
http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Had another interaction with a former PARA SF personnel whom I had mentioned earlier.
Some interesting observations that I think are OK to share.

Regarding 3 months probation:
He said that it was enough. He says it is not as if the volunteer goes for 3 months probation and the training gets any less afterwards. Even after the 3 months, the physical training remains of the same level for the rest of the time he spends in SF. The volunteer knows it. So, if he feels that he will not be able to endure this for years, he will quit himself (there are such cases). And even if the volunteer somehow clears the probation but it is felt that he is not able to keep his fitness..say after 8 months..he will be sent back his parent regiment. But this rarely happens as the guy who is able to endure the probation for 3 months generally gets into the rhythm and acquires the fitness to carry on. So, there is lowering of standards on that count. PARA units do not compromise on that.

Regarding conversion of PARA to PARA SF without Govt sanction
He says this is impossible. This is army and everything (specially this big) has to be done according to the procedure and through the proper channels. He says that it is very likely that the rest of PARA battalions will also be converted to SF but it is impossible that it will be done without proper approval.

Regarding lowering of standards when converting PARA to PARA SF:
He says that is not the case. He says that there is no difference b/n the physical fitness of PARA and PARA SF. There is a small difference of course. Some courses are not available to PARA (I think he mentioned Combat diving as one such course, but I am not 100% sure). Also, there is a small difference in equipment. But in his opinion, this is a very good decision. He says that some SF personnel feel superior to non SF and may say that there is a difference, but it is not the case (note that the person is from SF himself).

More regarding selection procedure and training:
He says that the volunteer cannot volunteer for a particular unit. He cannot even volunteer for SF. He can only volunteer for Parachute Regiment. Then he is given to any para unit depending upon the vacancies. Of course, a chap who has cleared the probation for say..5 PARA, may chose to convert to 1 PARA SF and again go for probation there. But this is rarely done. In fact, this is even looked down upon because of unit loyalty.

Also, regarding free fall jumps like HALO and HAHO. He says that paratroopers from both SF and non SF units can go through them. He says that there are various courses available and the personnel keep on doing different courses for a long time. This is generally done according to one's specialty. Like a person who is natural with demolition will first do courses related to it before going for others.

Regarding SFF and SG
He says that the PARA SF does not have any particular respect for SFF. It is not that they are not good, but it is not enough to impress PARA. Regarding SG, he says that he knows very little regarding the operations of SFF & SG so he cannot comment about that but he told me that the majority of SG come from PARA SF. And it is not as if some radical training is imparted to them there. In fact, he says that no CO likes parting from good men (let alone the best). He says that the men sent to NSG SAG and SG are generally done because of compulsion. He says that going to SG is like just another posting (even though he was using the word "posting", he was almost making it sound as if it was a holiday :-o ).

I know that most of the above is totally contradictory to the general perception. So, I request Surya not to go postal over me. :mrgreen: I am merely posting what the guy told me. Obviously, I have no open source to confirm all this so take it FWIW.

PS: Misc stuff. The person says that the environment and culture of PARA is totally different from the rest of the army. For one, the people are much more close to each other. Eg: When any para (current, former or retired) sees another person wearing Maroon beret he always goes and introduces himself. In fact, it is considered extremely rude not to do so. It does not have to be long lengthy discussion, but a brief introduction is very important.
Also, once a person is from PARA, he is welcomed there even after retirement ( this is true for the regular army as well, but it is totally on a different level for PARACUTE regiment.) They is more like a family. Eg: It has sometimes happened that a retired officer has sent his son to his parent PARA unit during the child's school holidays..just for the purpose of making him fit and disciplined!!!

Added Later:
Surya,
Regarding 21 PARA SF, he again repeated that only the CO and a young officer were able to clear the probation. Apart from them, there was only the unfortunate 2IC who had volunteered. He said that no one from the rest of the MLI unit had volunteered. They had given a choice to do so but they had declined.
However, it is worth noting that the person telling me all this was not from 21 SF.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Gaur

the man is obvously a Para who made the shortened conversion. He is no SF the SF will treat him with the disdain he deserves
Regarding 3 months probation:
He said that it was enough. He says it is not as if the volunteer goes for 3 months probation and the training gets any less afterwards. Even after the 3 months, the physical training
Obviously does not what he is talking about and this is why the original SF have so much takleef witht hese para idiots
Regarding conversion of PARA to PARA SF without Govt sanction
ask for the MOD sactioned document clearing additional SF bns

Regarding lowering of standards when converting PARA to PARA SF:
He says that is not the case. He says that there is no difference b/n the physical fitness of PARA and PARA SF. There is a small difference of course. Some courses are not available to PARA (I think he mentioned Combat diving as one such course, but I am not 100% sure). Also, there is a small difference in equipment. But in his opinion, this is a very good decision. He says that some SF personnel feel superior to non SF and may say that there is a difference, but it is not the case (note that the person is from SF himself).
As I have already mentioned it goes beyond the physical. This is the type of idiot the Para generals have fostrerd upon


Regarding 21 SF - he knows didly dquat but then he is already established as a Para officer - Talk to Kapil sometime and he will tell you what we know about 21 SF :)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Gaur

Thanks for showing folks here the mindset of the Para folks


Proof indeed that the SF needs its own regiment and leave the Para boys to their mindset
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Surya,
As I said earlier, the person I talked to is from SF. I know from which batallion (a very distinguished one even among SF) and have even seen him in uniform wearing the balidaan badge. I am not disclosing more details only because he is still serving in Army and so I am not sure whether it will be all right to give out more personal details about him. But yes, he has not been part of an SF unit for some time because of an injury that he carries. So it is possible that he is not up to date with current scenario.

Added Later: It is also worth noting that he himself has gone through 3 months probation. So, that may have something to do with his views regarding probation period. But I must admit that I see some merit in his argument.

Regarding the fact that SF is not only about physical fitness, he emphasized upon that point numerous times by saying that mental toughness is more important. He said that no man has physical fitness to run for 40 Kms with full load. Every soldier's body cries at him to give up and it is only the mentally tough can ignore it and carry on (not his exact words..just my summary of his description.).
Gaur
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Surya wrote: Regarding 21 SF - he knows didly dquat but then he is already established as a Para officer - Talk to Kapil sometime and he will tell you what we know about 21 SF :)
Perhaps. As I said earlier the chap is not from 21 SF. So, he may be wrong about that. But can you tell me what is the truth then? :)
You have already told me that all the soldiers had volunteered. Can you also tell how many were able to clear the probation?
Thanks.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

And thats the crux of the problem

wearing a balidan badge which he has not earned the way the men who go through the 6 month probation have done

thats the cause of the heartburn and thankfully the damage has been stopped.
But yes, he has not been part of an SF unit for some time because of an injury that he carries.
:) ironic

As far the SF fraternity is concerned he is not SF

I will ask how many cleared the conversion.
Perhaps. As I said earlier the chap is not from 21 SF.
I know he is not - he would been talking this garbage if he was - the men from 21 SF will run rings around him.
Added Later: It is also worth noting that he himself has gone through 3 months probation. So, that may have something to do with his views regarding probation period. But I must admit that I see some merit in his argument.
:eek:
What merit do you see??
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

OK. Since the discussion has already reached the PARA versus PARA(SF) level, let me add my two cents:

The biggest motivator for Para Bn. asking for SF conversion is the allowance for SF operators. Period. Talk to as many Para boys as possible and without fail the line you will hear is this - we do the same job as them, why pay us less? Somewhere, the 3month probation period is a facilitator in this thought process.....6months seems like an eternity. Ask anyone of them about 6months probation and see the expression on their faces. As it is, only 3 Para battalions are are non-SF now.

As for opinion for SFF, please do not confuse the same with opinion for SG. There are valid reasons for this low level of respect from Paratroopers perspective about SFF being called paratroopers....other reason for the low opinion is because of them sitting and doing nothing........but no one can begrudge them their physical fitness.

Coming to SG, well, 9 out of 10 in IA would not have heard of it, leave alone see it in operations or its workings. There are very few who can talk about it and less who will talk about it.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Interestingly SFF were one of the 1st in India to experiment with HALO and HAHO jumps. And all of them are at least static line qualified so that does technically make 'em "paratroopers".
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Surya wrote:
Added Later: It is also worth noting that he himself has gone through 3 months probation. So, that may have something to do with his views regarding probation period. But I must admit that I see some merit in his argument.
:eek:
What merit do you see??
Because the gruel is not limited to 3 months. Lets say an EME chap volunteers for Parachute Regiment and he is given probation with 10 PARA SF. Lets say that he clears the 3 months probation. Now from what I get, the problem is that if the probation was of 6 months, may be he would have dropped out after...lets say 5 months? This is a valid point. However, even after completing the 3 months probation, it is not as if the EME chap's routine would be any less strenuous (both mentally and physically) after 3 months. So, if it is found that the EME chap is not able to cope after whatever time (6 months or 6 years), he will be sent back to his parent regiment. So, the SF unit will not suffer in any way because they do not compromise on standards.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

pkpandey wrote:My goodness! What a chaos in the SPECIAL FORCES of indian army! This para should be kept as far as possible from SF.
As I have said before, the chap was from a SF batallion.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Deleted...post now inconsequential
Last edited by Gaur on 30 Jan 2011 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Deleted...post now inconsequential
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Because the gruel is not limited to 3 months. Lets say an EME chap volunteers for Parachute Regiment and he is given probation with 10 PARA SF. Lets say that he clears the 3 months probation. Now from what I get, the problem is that if the probation was of 6 months, may be he would have dropped out after...lets say 5 months? This is a valid point. However, even after completing the 3 months probation, it is not as if the EME chap's routine would be any less strenuous (both mentally and physically) after 3 months. So, if it is found that the EME chap is not able to cope after whatever time (6 months or 6 years), he will be sent back to his parent regiment. So, the SF unit will not suffer in any way because they do not compromise on standards.
Injuries can cut short your life in SF at any point

Note its 6 months and cont training

But how can a guy wear a balidan badge with 3 month probation expect any reaspect when he runs original SF who earns it after 6 month probation. You have now set the stage for a mess.

gruel continues is all in theory but the true test was for example not falling down the mountainside in 5th month in night exercises.

worse not only did the Para generals make it 3 month they wanted to reduce rejections
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Kapil »

8) I just came into this.
I am fascinated by the Paras meeting,greeting and inroducing themselves to each other.
They seem like the Freemasons of the Indian Army.

And sending one's children to a para unit during school holidays for discipline is a bit too much.

About 21, wasnt 21 the first unit to convert from being a regular Bn into a Para SF one?
A good percentage of people managed to convert which I think entitles the MLI to claim the Bn as a part of the MLI fraternity.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Kapil wrote:8) I just came into this.
I am fascinated by the Paras meeting,greeting and inroducing themselves to each other.
They seem like the Freemasons of the Indian Army.

And sending one's children to a para unit during school holidays for discipline is a bit too much.

About 21, wasnt 21 the first unit to convert from being a regular Bn into a Para SF one?
A good percentage of people managed to convert which I think entitles the MLI to claim the Bn as a part of the MLI fraternity.
Saarji,
Though I have personally seen a retired gentleman in civvies greeting the para gentleman because of the red beret, I do not know whether that is a usual occurrence or not.

Regarding the school holiday thing! I admit that even I find that very hard to believe. But believe me when I say that is not the most incredulous thing that I had heard that day. :mrgreen: I will not even dare to mention some other things that he had said for the fear of being ridiculed. :D If it was not for his serious straight face, I would have though he was taking the mickey out of me.

There is also another thing he told me which is not as incredulous as others and so I can dare to write about it. The person told me that the CO of some other units (even AR), sometimes send a bunch of their troops to Para units to be "hardened". He said though this is not a regular practice but it is not totally unheard of. The SF person told me that he himself had once trained a bunch of such infantry soldiers.

Regarding 21SF, I have already written what the guy had told me and the fact that he is not from 21SF himself. :)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Gaur »

Surya wrote: Injuries can cut short your life in SF at any point

Note its 6 months and cont training

But how can a guy wear a balidan badge with 3 month probation expect any reaspect when he runs original SF who earns it after 6 month probation. You have now set the stage for a mess.

gruel continues is all in theory but the true test was for example not falling down the mountainside in 5th month in night exercises.

worse not only did the Para generals make it 3 month they wanted to reduce rejections
I guess I see your point. It may be that the Para SF personnel are themselves divided regarding the probation period depending upon their own duration? I cannot really say as I have met only a single person from Parachute regiment (serving or retired) and 1 person is hardly enough to gauge the general opinion of the regiment.
I am hoping to meet another chap from parachute regiment soon. Even though I do not know whether he is from SF or not (he is certainly not with PARA at present), he is a "relatively" young guy so it will be interesting to know his opinion as well.

pkpandey,
Thanks for the edit. :)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by manish.rastogi »

might be redundant but it seems to me like Indian Special Forces are not very properly structured....if you guys could would you like to restructure it,if yes then how???
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

yeah get the SF its own Regiment

delink it from the Paras
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Amen to that......
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by manish.rastogi »

is that it...,.only this much restructuring....what about garud, marcos, nsg, other special forces etc....??
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

they already have sort of joint special forces mechanism in place, at least on paper, since there was a handing over ceremony of the doctrine last year. it was not for public release and we don't know the situation on the ground.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by jimmy_moh »

only my suggestion will be for all the SF.. for transport they should not depend on other units.. whether it is in land/air/sea...
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

WSI Dhruv is arriving soon, Dhruvs are getting delivered as we speak
6 MC130J will be in within 2 yrs. 6 more options will surely be exercised and be in by 2015.
some of the 80 additional Mi17V were ordered would be available for SF/Para
LCH should get IOC by 2013 end and FOC by 2015 end (hopefully)
IN could chime in with a few Sea Kings
a few ambhipian a/c should be in by 2015.
we have the FAC craft for the sea
light tanks/recce has been tendered for.

stage seems ripe to form a SOAR with its own integral air assets tasked to serve both the Para regiment and a new SF Cmd (JSOC with land, af and naval centers)...could reach IOC in 2014 maybe. the JSOC commander should have equal position as a theater commander and perhaps be drawn only from the ex-SF community. raksha mantri should be able to pick up the phone and reach this one guy who can order all assets be used as appropriate rather than waste time arranging transport from IAF, boats from the navy and clearance from the army chief.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Marut »

pkpandey wrote:can someone tel how much probation do the marcos volunteers undergo to make it in?
Two years.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

pkpandey wrote:two years! are u sure? i'm asking about the 6 months para sf probation equivalent in marcos. any links wil be welcome. THANKS!
Para SF probation is the period where they will test your physical and mental stamina and check your suitability for the SF.....MARCOS two years is the entire period covering the initial screening and subsequent training (like Combat Diver course etc).
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rkhanna »

Hey no Garud/SF Pics from AI 11?!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rkhanna »

A student was killed allegedly during an ambush by the Army in north Kashmir's Kupwara district, following which a murder case was registered on Saturday against the unit which carried out the operation.

Manzoor Ahmad Magray, 22, was shot dead by the troopers of 4 Para of the Army, who had laid an ambush last night in Chogal area of Handwara town, 85 kms from here, in Kupwara district, officials said.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/stude ... ir/746447/
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Juggi G »

Who are they Garud or Army SFs :?:

Image
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by nachiket »

^^They are Garuds.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

^^ Garuds since they have a IAF eagle emblem under their "Special Forces" badge on left arm..
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

India today: - just look at this list of scum sucking up crores every year.

NSG turns eagle eye away from politcians, will focus on terror
Aman Sharma | New Delhi, February 10, 2011 | Updated 09:31 IST

Six VIPs are to lose their NSG security cover, as the country's premier counter-terrorism force plans to focus more on its primary job - working on new measures to foil future terror attacks.

This will bring down from 22 to 16 the number of VIPs enjoying NSG or National Security Guard cover.

NSG director-general R. K. Medheker said the home ministry has ordered the withdrawal of its cover to leaders such as former youth Congress leader Maninder Singh Bitta, Congress leader Ashwani Kumar, National Scheduled Castes panel chairman Buta Singh, Punjab chief minister Parkash Singh Badal and former Assam chief minister Prafulla Kumar Mahanta.

Most of these VIPs enjoyed NSG cover for almost a decade.

"The security to Bitta, Buta Singh and Ashwani Kumar has been withdrawn, while the cover to Badal will be removed on March, 2011. Mohanta has approached the court against the withdrawal," Medheker said.

"Considerable amount of manpower and logistics go into providing NSG cover. We give cover to BJP leaders L. K. Advani, Rajnath Singh and Narendra Modi, UP chief minister Mayawati, Tamil Nadu chief minister M. Karunanidhi, TDP chief Chandrababu Naidu and SP chief Mulayam Singh Yadav, among others," he said.

Medheker said the NSG was now focusing on new counter- terror measures like training commandos in para- dropping for " silent intervention" during terror attacks.

"Our commandos are training with the help of the Army's Garud unit which specialises in this. It involves dropping commandos using parachutes into a terror spot, rather than using a chopper," said Medheker. The NSG has placed orders for such parachutes and para- motor gliders.

During the 26/ 11 terror attacks, NSG commandos had to slither down a chopper to the Nariman House building under full media glare. A commando was shot dead by terrorists in the process.

NSG counter-terrorist unit head Col Sunil Sheoran has written about the importance of such a measure in The Bombshell, the NSG's annual publication.

Col Sheoran said terrorists were likely to use the air medium to strike heavily fortified gatherings, important meetings of VIPs and political rallies, sacred religious places and tourist spots.

"Terrorists are likely to use paragliders as they require no licence, have long range and can carry destructive loads. It is essential that security forces stay a step ahead to avoid such strikes," Col Sheoran, head of NSG's 51 Special Action Group, wrote.

Medheker said the force was now posting its commandos as sky marshalls on about 1,200 national and international flights every month.

NSG commandos are also training with the navy commando unit, MARCOS. "We plan to do mock-drills with the police in several cities to test how the NSG can speedily reach a terror-hit spot. In the long run, we may get a dedicated aircraft from the government," Medhekar added.

He said future attacks in India could be increasingly smallscale or "micro-terrorism" as extensively planned mass casualty attacks is harder now because of high chances of detection. "The 26/ 11 terror was a well- rehearsed, multi- part attack where terrorists caught everyone by surprise," he said.

Medheker also said the West Bengal government had refused to give 30 acres of land near Kolkata for a NSG regional centre and they were now looking for land in Assam or Jharkhand for the same.

"The NSG hub will, however, stay in Kolkata. With the four hubs set up, NSG can now reach any spot in India within two hours," he said.

The haves and the have nots

- Six VIPs are set to lose NSG security cover, including National Scheduled Castes chairman Buta Singh, Punjab CM Parkash Singh Badal and former Assam CM Prafulla Kumar Mahanta

- Sixteen leaders, including L. K. Advani, Narendra Modi, Mayawati, TDP chief Chandrababu Naidu, SP chief Mulayam Singh Yadav and M. Karunanidhi retain NSG security cover
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